Tom McShea: Why Smash doesn't need change

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nintendoboy16

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#1 nintendoboy16
Member since 2007 • 41532 Posts

Article here

Reasons:

Six years is a long time

There is nothing else like it (he makes a pretty bad example using Onimusha: Blade Warriors though)

Balance perfection

The wrath of the scorned

Consumer demand

---

So, after you've read the whole thing. Thoughts?

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uninspiredcup

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#2  Edited By uninspiredcup  Online
Member since 2013 • 58950 Posts

Did Syndicate need changed? Did Dragon Age need changed?

Publishers only give a shit about money. Everything he mentioned means shit.

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wolverine4262

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#3 wolverine4262
Member since 2004 • 20832 Posts

My thoughts?

lolTomMcsheaopinion.

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Blabadon

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#4 Blabadon
Member since 2008 • 33030 Posts

"If you've been out of the Smash loop for a few years, you may have missed the brouhaha surrounding Brawl. People hate it. Well, that may be a little strong, but it's turned off the competitive community so much that it's been shelved while Melee takes center stage. Don't believe me? Just go to EVO next year, yell "Brawl is better than Melee!" and watch the fireworks. Preferably from a safe distance."

#Truth

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MonsieurX

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#7 MonsieurX
Member since 2008 • 39858 Posts

@uninspiredcup said:

Did Syndicate need changed? Did Dragon Age need changed?

Publishers only give a shit about money. Everything he mentioned means shit.

Looks like the same about you

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ActicEdge

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#8 ActicEdge
Member since 2008 • 24492 Posts

Smash doesn't need to change but they are doing a lot of fun stuff with this one. Customization in movesets is absolutely huge and a crazy good addition.

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StrifeDelivery

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#9 StrifeDelivery
Member since 2006 • 1901 Posts

@wolverine4262 said:

My thoughts?

lolTomMcsheaopinion.

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sonic_spark

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#10 sonic_spark
Member since 2003 • 6195 Posts

I agree with the general concept...

But I lol'd at Tom McShea saying a franchise doesn't need change. I find that to be one of his main criticisms of existing franchises. Interesting read nonetheless.

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kinectthedots

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#11 kinectthedots
Member since 2013 • 3383 Posts

My god, this just make his opinion that much more un-credible.

How many times in the past has he criticized games for being more of the same as a negative, even though they were still great games in their own right?

There is something to be said about having a consistent and fair critical opinion, which Tom feels he can completely ignore depending on his preferences.

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handssss

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#12 handssss
Member since 2013 • 1907 Posts

shit reasons. he really doesn't care just because he likes it as is. if it were any other franchise he didn't care this much about, he'd be docking points for not doing enough things differently. then again, it's a nintendo game, so it was already guaranteed to be exempt from this type of criticism.

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kaealy

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#13 kaealy
Member since 2004 • 2179 Posts

"Balance perfection"?

I've heard people moan about balance for years since the release of the latest smash, isn't there even characters that are banned by EVO?

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nintendoboy16

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#14 nintendoboy16
Member since 2007 • 41532 Posts

@handssss said:

shit reasons. he really doesn't care just because he likes it as is. if it were any other franchise he didn't care this much about, he'd be docking points for not doing enough things differently. then again, it's a nintendo game, so it was already guaranteed to be exempt from this type of criticism.

Where the **** do people still get this idea when it's not even true?

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DocSanchez

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#16  Edited By DocSanchez
Member since 2013 • 5557 Posts

If it didn't need change you would be a fool even buying the new one. Just play the old ones if it's the same. Every franchise needs some change, to some degree.

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foxhound_fox

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#17 foxhound_fox
Member since 2005 • 98532 Posts

Tom McShea is pretty much a try-hard now.

If it didn't need change, they wouldn't be making a new one.

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#18 PurpleMan5000
Member since 2011 • 10531 Posts

I bet he reviews the game now and docks it points for being too similar to previous installments.

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YearoftheSnake5

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#19  Edited By YearoftheSnake5
Member since 2005 • 9716 Posts
@nintendoboy16 said:

Where the **** do people still get this idea when it's not even true?

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DJ-Lafleur

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#20  Edited By DJ-Lafleur
Member since 2007 • 35604 Posts

What he says isn't wrong, though alot of what he says isn't necessarily exclusive to Smash either.

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jg4xchamp

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#21 jg4xchamp
Member since 2006 • 64037 Posts

I think that's a lazy justification. Yes the last 2 makes some sense; you don't want to alienate your fanbase/cripple yourself from a sales standpoint.

But fundamentally what makes a sequel great to me has always been those willing to mix it up. The ones that don't want to stick to the obvious formula, and are willing to make changes. That's not to say you can't just taken a proven concept, and enhance it even more to a point of perfection (Super Mario Galaxy 2 for instance), but games that are just the status quo are no worse than the shit we bitch at COD/Madden for. I don't buy that a gap in releases justifies releasing the same game over n over again. I don't buy that "time spent" and "effort" and "love" overrule the part where the game is the same game. I don't buy that a creative studio is bound to its fanbase. Let's be real that "shitty" smash game sold a ton. Nintendo's fanbase is enough of a hivemind that they will follow Nintendo's decision making.

So yeah, I don't think anything he wrote would justify "Oh, they made another fucking smash bros" feeling. For the record I want a more nuanced fighter, or at the least something that has a good fighting engine like Melee, as opposed to the gameplay per square inch borefest that was Brawl.

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princeofshapeir

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#22 princeofshapeir
Member since 2006 • 16652 Posts

It does need change, and they are changing a lot with Smash 4, so I don't get the point of this article. And unlike Brawl, a lot of the change is meaningful content instead of a dumb gimmick like Subspace Emissary.

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nini200

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#23 nini200
Member since 2005 • 11484 Posts

Balance Perfection? Smash hasn't been balanced well since 64 and even 64 wasn't perfectly balanced. Melee was an unbalanced mess and so was Brawl. But then again you read that it's Tom Mcshea and go meh whatever lol

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LegatoSkyheart

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#24 LegatoSkyheart
Member since 2009 • 29733 Posts

Tom doesn't realize that Smash Bros. Changes from Game to Game.

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Shinobishyguy

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#25 Shinobishyguy
Member since 2006 • 22928 Posts

How much can a fighter like smash change between sequels? Eventually it will get to the point where it isn't even smash anymore

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#26  Edited By parkurtommo
Member since 2009 • 28295 Posts

Brawl is better than melee.

It has better graphics.

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Big_Pecks

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#27 Big_Pecks
Member since 2010 • 5973 Posts

Watch it get a 6.

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RageQuit4Life

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#28 RageQuit4Life
Member since 2010 • 527 Posts

It's not broken, so it doesn't need any change.

.

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93BlackHawk93

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#29  Edited By 93BlackHawk93
Member since 2010 • 8611 Posts

It's changing quite a lot actually. Any SSB fan that is following this game closely can say that.

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#30 93BlackHawk93
Member since 2010 • 8611 Posts
@Big_Pecks said:

Watch it get a 6.

I can see that happening. -_-

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#31  Edited By Heil68
Member since 2004 • 60713 Posts

People wont care what they do to it and still buy it.

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#32 Shinobishyguy
Member since 2006 • 22928 Posts

@93BlackHawk93: lol I'd like to see their reasoning behind that. Unless the online is broken like brawl I don't see it getting less than 8

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stereointegrity

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#33 stereointegrity
Member since 2007 • 12151 Posts

the only reason im buying a wii u

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#34 princeofshapeir
Member since 2006 • 16652 Posts

@nini200 said:

Balance Perfection? Smash hasn't been balanced well since 64 and even 64 wasn't perfectly balanced. Melee was an unbalanced mess and so was Brawl. But then again you read that it's Tom Mcshea and go meh whatever lol

64 wasn't balanced well at all, Pikachu is borderline broken

Melee is the most well-balanced of the official games

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deactivated-5acbb9993d0bd

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#35 deactivated-5acbb9993d0bd
Member since 2012 • 12449 Posts

@Desmonic said:

This kinda goes against their (and by their I mean the general review outlets, not just GS) "motto" in these past few years of popular franchises NEEDING changes to be any good (for better or worse).

It's not that I disagree with what he says but if you're going to follow a certain direction in your reviews, don't allow staff to start opening exceptions. Might as well just say you're gonna review each game within its own context, as it makes more sense IMO. Not every single game needs to be compared to everything else out there to be deemed good or not.

And yes, I do understand it's his opinion. But it's his opinion posted on GS, for whom he works for and reviews games. Therefore one can assume his own opinion will play heavily into how he reviews games (or certain games at least).

your logic is flawed. he explained it was a 6 year gap. most of the franchises demanding change are yearly itteration games like cod. never have they made it a universal rule.

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#36 Bread_or_Decide
Member since 2007 • 29761 Posts

@princeofshapeir said:

@nini200 said:

Balance Perfection? Smash hasn't been balanced well since 64 and even 64 wasn't perfectly balanced. Melee was an unbalanced mess and so was Brawl. But then again you read that it's Tom Mcshea and go meh whatever lol

64 wasn't balanced well at all, Pikachu is borderline broken

Melee is the most well-balanced of the official games

I really don't ever get how a party fighting game is or even must be balanced. It's just people jumping around trying to toss eachother off screen.

And the people who play this game "seriously" always make me laugh. I've seen countless youtube videos of "tournament style smash" and it looks ridiculous.

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#37  Edited By nini200
Member since 2005 • 11484 Posts

@princeofshapeir said:

@nini200 said:

Balance Perfection? Smash hasn't been balanced well since 64 and even 64 wasn't perfectly balanced. Melee was an unbalanced mess and so was Brawl. But then again you read that it's Tom Mcshea and go meh whatever lol

64 wasn't balanced well at all, Pikachu is borderline broken

Melee is the most well-balanced of the official games

Whatever helps you sleep at night.

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nini200

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#38 nini200
Member since 2005 • 11484 Posts

@Bread_or_Decide said:

@princeofshapeir said:

@nini200 said:

Balance Perfection? Smash hasn't been balanced well since 64 and even 64 wasn't perfectly balanced. Melee was an unbalanced mess and so was Brawl. But then again you read that it's Tom Mcshea and go meh whatever lol

64 wasn't balanced well at all, Pikachu is borderline broken

Melee is the most well-balanced of the official games

I really don't ever get how a party fighting game is or even must be balanced. It's just people jumping around trying to toss eachother off screen.

And the people who play this game "seriously" always make me laugh. I've seen countless youtube videos of "tournament style smash" and it looks ridiculous.

It is indeed a game where fighting is involved so balance is important whether its a traditional fighter or not.

Melee however was a super speed mess with absolutely atrocious hitstun. However, it did have a great character roster and the best stage design out of the 3 so I'll give it that.

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#40  Edited By princeofshapeir
Member since 2006 • 16652 Posts

@nini200: Pikachu has no unfavorable or even matchups in 64. Fox and Falco have several even matchups in Melee. Pikachu was always top-tier since 64 was played competitively, whereas Fox and Falco had to earn top-tier status as Melee's meta developed. And there's the fact that 64 isn't as technical as Melee and 64 Pikachu doesn't require anywhere near the amount of skill as spacies in Melee (at a high level of play). People think just because 64's roster was small it was balanced, and that because there are useless characters in Melee like Kirby and Pichu Melee is unbalanced; but when a single character in a game is objectively better than every other character in the game--which isn't the case in Melee--that game is unbalanced.

@Bread_or_Decide: If you don't know anything about the competitive scene and don't care, I don't see why you're adamant on flaunting your ignorance

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#41 princeofshapeir
Member since 2006 • 16652 Posts

@nini200 said:

It is indeed a game where fighting is involved so balance is important whether its a traditional fighter or not.

Melee however was a super speed mess with absolutely atrocious hitstun. However, it did have a great character roster and the best stage design out of the 3 so I'll give it that.

You think Melee's the game with atrocious hitstun? lol, I thought you played 64. Or do you mean there's not enough hitstun and 0-to-death combos actually require some effort?

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#42 nini200
Member since 2005 • 11484 Posts

@princeofshapeir said:

@nini200 said:

It is indeed a game where fighting is involved so balance is important whether its a traditional fighter or not.

Melee however was a super speed mess with absolutely atrocious hitstun. However, it did have a great character roster and the best stage design out of the 3 so I'll give it that.

You think Melee's the game with atrocious hitstun? lol, I thought you played 64. Or do you mean there's not enough hitstun and 0-to-death combos actually require some effort?

Lol somebody's upset at the truth lol Don't worry so much, it's just a video game, it wont keep you up at night.

Melee didn't have enough hitstun.

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princeofshapeir

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#43  Edited By princeofshapeir
Member since 2006 • 16652 Posts

@nini200 said:

@princeofshapeir said:

@nini200 said:

It is indeed a game where fighting is involved so balance is important whether its a traditional fighter or not.

Melee however was a super speed mess with absolutely atrocious hitstun. However, it did have a great character roster and the best stage design out of the 3 so I'll give it that.

You think Melee's the game with atrocious hitstun? lol, I thought you played 64. Or do you mean there's not enough hitstun and 0-to-death combos actually require some effort?

Lol somebody's upset at the truth lol Don't worry so much, it's just a video game, it wont keep you up at night.

Melee didn't have enough hitstun.

Melee with 64 hitstun would be stupid

If it legitimately didn't have enough hitstun it wouldn't have had the biggest competitive scene of any Smash Bros. game since 2001

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nini200

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#44  Edited By nini200
Member since 2005 • 11484 Posts

@princeofshapeir said:

@nini200: Pikachu has no unfavorable or even matchups in 64. Fox and Falco have several even matchups in Melee. Pikachu was always top-tier since 64 was played competitively, whereas Fox and Falco had to earn top-tier status as Melee's meta developed. And there's the fact that 64 isn't as technical as Melee and 64 Pikachu doesn't require anywhere near the amount of skill as spacies in Melee (at a high level of play). People think just because 64's roster was small it was balanced, and that because there are useless characters in Melee like Kirby and Pichu Melee is unbalanced; but when a single character in a game is objectively better than every other character in the game--which isn't the case in Melee--that game is unbalanced.

@Bread_or_Decide: If you don't know anything about the competitive scene and don't care, I don't see why you're adamant on flaunting your ignorance

Awww, we made the wittle baby cry. It's ok wittle baby, the truth hurts but it'll be ok.

@princeofshapeir said:

Melee with 64 hitstun would be stupid

If it legitimately didn't have enough hitstun it wouldn't have had the biggest competitive scene of any Smash Bros. game since 2001

Ooh we got a double post lol somebody's mad that truth is being told about their favorite smash bros game Lol Waahhh Waahhhh

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#45  Edited By princeofshapeir
Member since 2006 • 16652 Posts

@nini200 said:

@princeofshapeir said:

@nini200: Pikachu has no unfavorable or even matchups in 64. Fox and Falco have several even matchups in Melee. Pikachu was always top-tier since 64 was played competitively, whereas Fox and Falco had to earn top-tier status as Melee's meta developed. And there's the fact that 64 isn't as technical as Melee and 64 Pikachu doesn't require anywhere near the amount of skill as spacies in Melee (at a high level of play). People think just because 64's roster was small it was balanced, and that because there are useless characters in Melee like Kirby and Pichu Melee is unbalanced; but when a single character in a game is objectively better than every other character in the game--which isn't the case in Melee--that game is unbalanced.

@Bread_or_Decide: If you don't know anything about the competitive scene and don't care, I don't see why you're adamant on flaunting your ignorance

Awww, we made the wittle baby cry. It's ok wittle baby, the truth hurts but it'll be ok.

@princeofshapeir said:

Melee with 64 hitstun would be stupid

If it legitimately didn't have enough hitstun it wouldn't have had the biggest competitive scene of any Smash Bros. game since 2001

Ooh we got a double post lol somebody's mad that truth is being told about their favorite smash bros game Lol Waahhh Waahhhh

Yo, if you like 64 that's cool, I never said I hated it; I like all of the Smash Bros. games. Just don't think it's balanced like Melee is. The least you could do is come up with an actual rebuttal :(

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#46  Edited By DJ-Lafleur
Member since 2007 • 35604 Posts

Melee's balance wasn't perfect but it was definitely better balanced than 64 and Brawl.

melee's hitstun is perfectly fine. I'm pretty sure this is the first time I've ever heard someone complain about it.

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#47 The_Last_Ride
Member since 2004 • 76371 Posts

McShea doesn't know what he's talking about

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#48 drummerdave9099
Member since 2010 • 4606 Posts

watch him review it and take points away for "not enough changes"