The Order dominates everyone in graphics at Gamescom 2014

#401 Edited by Legend002 (7422 posts) -

Can't wait to see what Naughty Dog is capable of with Uncharted 4. The Order 1866 looks just ridiculous and that's being created by a fairly new console dev.

#402 Edited by Lulu_Lulu (17173 posts) -

But it can't Dominate anything in Gameplay anywhere at all.....

Welcome to the year of Tech Demos ! :)

#403 Edited by lundy86_4 (44027 posts) -

@gpuking said:

For the people dissing 1920x 800p, 30fps, film grain and black bar, you all must find blu ray movies last gen right? What, Crysis 4k looks better than Avengers BD now? As long as your game is 1:1 pixel mapped to the TV output, you will never get a blurry or upscaled image, not a fkn hard concept to grasp seriously. Black bars simulate wide camera angle shown in the cinema thus giving you a cinematic look, if you don't like than fine, don't diss the technology behind it. Also do not forget 4xmsaa with another post AA on top of it, the iq wont get any better on consoles period, full stop. Combined with 1920 x 800p, it's a good deal more bandwidth consuming than a typical 1080p buffer so there's absolutely no reason to diss the rendering technology here. DUmb hermits and lems should really educate yourselves with more graphics knowledge before making ignorant narrow minded one liners like "oh it's 800p", "black bars..". ffs.

I still find black bars stylistically distasteful with regards to video games. I have enough issues with a 2.39:1 aspect ratio in movies, let alone games.

#404 Posted by gpuking (3046 posts) -

@lostrib

Film grain can accentuate the tone and atmosphere for certain scenes or art style, primarily for desolated, war torn, horror based environment. I think the effect goes quite nicely with the dark, gritty tone of The Order as it emphasizes the sense of mystery, dread and of course film likeness. I know it's not for everyone especially the Mario crowd but in the hands of competent developers like RAD, ND, Koji pro, it would add so much more to the scene.

#405 Posted by lostrib (41247 posts) -

@gpuking said:

@lostrib

Film grain can accentuate the tone and atmosphere for certain scenes or art style, primarily for desolated, war torn, horror based environment. I think the effect goes quite nicely with the dark, gritty tone of The Order as it emphasizes the sense of mystery, dread and of course film likeness. I know it's not for everyone especially the Mario crowd but in the hands of competent developers like RAD, ND, Koji pro, it would add so much more to the scene.

Okay, kudos for you. I still don't like it

#406 Posted by joel_c17 (2942 posts) -

Too bad the gameplay looks like testicles

#407 Posted by lostrib (41247 posts) -

@joel_c17 said:

Too bad the gameplay looks like testicles

cinematic testicles

#408 Posted by StrifeDelivery (1737 posts) -

@jhonMalcovich said:

@Heirren said:

@jhonMalcovich said:

Dead Space 3 can be run at 4k and 60fps on a single GTX760. Visually still stunning game. The Order can not even hit 1080p.

That is a JOKE of a comparison. The Order S-M-O-K-E-S that. Wow.

No it does not. Post any proof beyond a trailer. The in game graphics don´t look better than Tomb Raider Reboot or Dead Space 3.

But you are welcome to prove me wrong if you have any proof to show. Dead Space visually is very very solid game. The Order doesn´t even have dismemberments.

Does The Order need dismemberment? Dead Space focuses on dismemberment because it is a gameplay element for the series. I guess I'm not necessarily seeing the need for dismemberment in The Order.

#409 Posted by remiks00 (2328 posts) -
@Cloud_imperium said:

@Cranler said:

@Cloud_imperium said:

Nope , that was Star Citizen .

It's just a trailer. Looks great but very gamey while The Order looks like CGI.

What's really amazing about The Order is that the PS 4 is relatively weak by todays standards yet I find it to be more amazing for today than Gears was for 2006. Gears was arguably no better than Fear on pc while The Order just flat out destroys all.

-Reads user name

-Ignores entire post .

lmao, poor Cranler. Dat reputation.

#410 Posted by cainetao11 (18786 posts) -

AWESOME!!!! Will the game be fun to play?!!!

#411 Posted by Cranler (8809 posts) -
@remiks00 said:
@Cloud_imperium said:

@Cranler said:

@Cloud_imperium said:

Nope , that was Star Citizen .

It's just a trailer. Looks great but very gamey while The Order looks like CGI.

What's really amazing about The Order is that the PS 4 is relatively weak by todays standards yet I find it to be more amazing for today than Gears was for 2006. Gears was arguably no better than Fear on pc while The Order just flat out destroys all.

-Reads user name

-Ignores entire post .

lmao, poor Cranler. Dat reputation.

You rated KZ SF an 8 and FC 3 a 4.5. LMFAO!

#412 Edited by Cranler (8809 posts) -

@Cloud_imperium said:

@Cranler said:

@Cloud_imperium said:

Nope , that was Star Citizen .

It's just a trailer. Looks great but very gamey while The Order looks like CGI.

What's really amazing about The Order is that the PS 4 is relatively weak by todays standards yet I find it to be more amazing for today than Gears was for 2006. Gears was arguably no better than Fear on pc while The Order just flat out destroys all.

-Reads user name

-Ignores entire post .

When they can't think of a counter it's time to resort to insults.

How much have you donated to Star Panhandler btw?

#413 Posted by Cloud_imperium (5348 posts) -

@remiks00 said:
@Cloud_imperium said:

@Cranler said:

It's just a trailer. Looks great but very gamey while The Order looks like CGI.

What's really amazing about The Order is that the PS 4 is relatively weak by todays standards yet I find it to be more amazing for today than Gears was for 2006. Gears was arguably no better than Fear on pc while The Order just flat out destroys all.

-Reads user name

-Ignores entire post .

lmao, poor Cranler. Dat reputation.

Yeah , he thinks everyone have enough time to continue bullsh*t discussion for 12 pages .

#414 Edited by remiks00 (2328 posts) -

@Cranler said:
@remiks00 said:
@Cloud_imperium said:

@Cranler said:

@Cloud_imperium said:

Nope , that was Star Citizen .

It's just a trailer. Looks great but very gamey while The Order looks like CGI.

What's really amazing about The Order is that the PS 4 is relatively weak by todays standards yet I find it to be more amazing for today than Gears was for 2006. Gears was arguably no better than Fear on pc while The Order just flat out destroys all.

-Reads user name

-Ignores entire post .

lmao, poor Cranler. Dat reputation.

You rated KZ SF an 8 and FC 3 a 4.5. LMFAO!

lol. Fixed that, good catch. Must've been a gamespot glitch. Since you can't rate in halves. FC3 is definitely not a 4.5. I rated KZ at launch because of the multiplayer, but didn't bother going back and changing the score. Good job at doing what Cranler does best, change the subject. "LMFAO!"

#415 Edited by Cranler (8809 posts) -

@remiks00 said:

@Cranler said:
@remiks00 said:
@Cloud_imperium said:

@Cranler said:

@Cloud_imperium said:

Nope , that was Star Citizen .

It's just a trailer. Looks great but very gamey while The Order looks like CGI.

What's really amazing about The Order is that the PS 4 is relatively weak by todays standards yet I find it to be more amazing for today than Gears was for 2006. Gears was arguably no better than Fear on pc while The Order just flat out destroys all.

-Reads user name

-Ignores entire post .

lmao, poor Cranler. Dat reputation.

You rated KZ SF an 8 and FC 3 a 4.5. LMFAO!

lol. Fixed that, good catch. Must've been a gamespot glitch. FC3 is definitely not a 4.5. Since you can't rate in halves. Good job at doing what Cranler does best, change the subject. "LMFAO!"

I did change the subject. Cloud imperium began a new subject about insulting those who have never insulted him, you stayed on that topic. Then I came on and turned it into insulting those who actually deserve it. Now show me examples of where I changed the subject in the past.

@Cloud_imperium said:

@remiks00 said:
@Cloud_imperium said:

@Cranler said:

It's just a trailer. Looks great but very gamey while The Order looks like CGI.

What's really amazing about The Order is that the PS 4 is relatively weak by todays standards yet I find it to be more amazing for today than Gears was for 2006. Gears was arguably no better than Fear on pc while The Order just flat out destroys all.

-Reads user name

-Ignores entire post .

lmao, poor Cranler. Dat reputation.

Yeah , he thinks everyone have enough time to continue bullsh*t discussion for 12 pages .

Why point the finger at me? Bldgrush and dasein 808 are the ones who go pages and pages with nothing but insults. Shouldn't you be at the intersection collecting donations for Star Citizen?

#416 Edited by shurns (98 posts) -

@jhonMalcovich said:

@Heirren said:

That is a JOKE of a comparison. The Order S-M-O-K-E-S that. Wow.

No it does not. Post any proof beyond a trailer. The in game graphics don´t look better than Tomb Raider Reboot or Dead Space 3.

But you are welcome to prove me wrong if you have any proof to show. Dead Space visually is very very solid game. The Order doesn´t even have dismemberments.

Actually it does look to have some gore featured into the game:

But the gameplay so far is meh to me. They should have at least shown a new demo, not the one from E3.

#417 Posted by lamprey263 (25004 posts) -

Nothing really more than the stuff we've seen, and previous video shows the gameplay plagued by taking control cutscenes and then giving you momentary control then back to a cutscene or QTE... I'm praying it's no MGS4 with a 3:1 cutscene to gameplay ratio. I will agree though visually it's good looking, I just hope the actual gameplay can satisfy as well. Anyhow, as a shooter it seems rather unremarkable. So, hopefully something else makes up for it, hopefully a good story and great atmosphere and characters or something.

#418 Posted by RR360DD (12954 posts) -

Was much more impressed graphically by Drive Club.

Looks like we're having another generation of all flash no substance games from Sony.

#419 Edited by MK-Professor (3862 posts) -

@AM-Gamer said:

@MK-Professor said:

@scottpsfan14 said:

PC's will always be better. No doubt about it. I'm just talking about the graphical content of The Order is pretty damn good looking.

The graphical content can't really stand out if it is hindered by low rez, low fps, black barks, film grain effect, and other "tricks" to get more performance.

The image you are seeing is 1080p. Hence the reason for the black bars. It also has 4xMSAA meaning its image quality is among the best out there. By your argument that would mean any demanding game on pc that has a hard time hitting a steady 30fps isnt really impressive.

It is 1920x800, which is an extremely low rez if you consider that me and most enthusiast pc gamers play for years at 2.5X times bigger rez than this. If a game on pc cant hit 60fps with the best available hardware is not impressive, you know there are some ray tracing demos that run that 5fps are these impressive?

#420 Edited by gpuking (3046 posts) -

When can people understand the black bars is a design choice, just like blu ray films you get this aspect ratio for cinematic look not because the system can't handle 1080p. If 1920 x 800 is extremely low then what the hell have you been watching movies at? Can you even run 4k graphics heavy games like Crysis3, Witcher 3, etc without a 780 ti quad sli? And you can surely forget about 60fps. None of you poor hermit bastards here even own a 780 for christ sake, or a 4k TV lol.

#421 Posted by lostrib (41247 posts) -

@gpuking said:

When can people understand the black bars is a design choice, just like blu ray films you get this aspect ratio for cinematic look not because the system can't handle 1080p. If 1920 x 800 is extremely low then what the hell have you been watching movies at? Can you even run 4k graphics heavy games like Crysis3, Witcher 3, etc without a 780 ti quad sli? And you can surely forget about 60fps. None of you poor hermit bastards here even own a 780 for christ sake, or a 4k TV lol.

Just because it's a design choice doesn't mean we have to like it

Also, I 'm pretty sure quite a few SW users have 780tis

#422 Edited by melonfarmerz (1270 posts) -

@gpuking said:

When can people understand the black bars is a design choice, just like blu ray films you get this aspect ratio for cinematic look not because the system can't handle 1080p. If 1920 x 800 is extremely low then what the hell have you been watching movies at? Can you even run 4k graphics heavy games like Crysis3, Witcher 3, etc without a 780 ti quad sli? And you can surely forget about 60fps. None of you poor hermit bastards here even own a 780 for christ sake, or a 4k TV lol.

If you seriously believe that, you're the epitome of a blind fanboy.

Also, please refer to this thread regarding your other claim.

http://www.gamespot.com/forums/pc-mac-discussion-1000004/showcase-your-rigs-29383766/#1444

#423 Edited by WallofTruth (1984 posts) -

@MK-Professor said:

@mikhail said:

1080p60fps, the standard for PC games for a number of years: (1920 * 1080) * 60 = 124 million rendered pixels per second.

800p30fps, The Order 1886 on PS4: (1920 * 800) * 30 = 46 million rendered pixels per second.

It better look this good when the system only has to draw a third of the amount of pixels that essentially every PC game has been doing for years. For as "next gen" as Sony is touting this hardware to be, it's pretty comical that it can only put out a third of what a mid-range gaming PC can do.

By all means, spin this into "cinematic feel", though. Nonsense.

That was the standard for PC games in 2006, from 2012 it is (2560 * 1440) * 60 = 221 million rendered pixels per second.

221 > 46

LOL

1440p/60FPS isn't even now a standard for PC gamers, let alone in 2012. Only very few people can afford such an expensive computer plus some games can't even be played in 1440p/60FPS, like Crysis 3, even with a GTX Titan/780 the game has trouble staying at 40FPS on 1440p. You'd probably need dual Titans for 1440p/60FPS and upcoming games will be even more taxing than Crysis 3, yeah dat standard.

#424 Posted by Snugenz (12661 posts) -

@gpuking said:

When can people understand the black bars is a design choice, just like blu ray films you get this aspect ratio for cinematic look not because the system can't handle 1080p. If 1920 x 800 is extremely low then what the hell have you been watching movies at? Can you even run 4k graphics heavy games like Crysis3, Witcher 3, etc without a 780 ti quad sli? And you can surely forget about 60fps. None of you poor hermit bastards here even own a 780 for christ sake, or a 4k TV lol.

A design choice my ass, why would anyone in their right mind remove screen real estate, in a world were bigger = better, one dev though "you know what, i hate when games fill my whole screen". get the fuck out with that shit.

Eh what? i can name atleast 6 of us on this site that own atleast 1 780, some even own 2, hell there's plenty of people on this site with Titan Blacks ffs, so get the fuck out with that shit aswell.

#425 Posted by WallofTruth (1984 posts) -

@gpuking said:

When can people understand the black bars is a design choice, just like blu ray films you get this aspect ratio for cinematic look not because the system can't handle 1080p. If 1920 x 800 is extremely low then what the hell have you been watching movies at? Can you even run 4k graphics heavy games like Crysis3, Witcher 3, etc without a 780 ti quad sli? And you can surely forget about 60fps. None of you poor hermit bastards here even own a 780 for christ sake, or a 4k TV lol.

And it's a terrible design choice. It's already annoying enough with movies but thanks for proving that The Order is a movie game, I mean you've been defending it with the fact that "bu bu but movies do the same".

#426 Edited by AzatiS (7923 posts) -

@uninspiredcup said:

But Crysis 3 looks better.

Maybe you are in crysis yourself\

Also i love how lems talking about linearity and boring gameplay ! is just too funny.

#427 Posted by Vaasman (11726 posts) -

@gpuking said:

When can people understand the black bars is a design choice, just like blu ray films you get this aspect ratio for cinematic look not because the system can't handle 1080p. If 1920 x 800 is extremely low then what the hell have you been watching movies at? Can you even run 4k graphics heavy games like Crysis3, Witcher 3, etc without a 780 ti quad sli? And you can surely forget about 60fps. None of you poor hermit bastards here even own a 780 for christ sake, or a 4k TV lol.

How long are you going to spew the developer's BS about "design choice?" No one except desperate cows is going to buy it for a second.

It's a video game, not a movie. No sane gamer should be perfectly fine with a quarter of the pixels being shaved off the screen.

#428 Posted by MBirdy88 (8979 posts) -

@Cranler said:

@Cloud_imperium said:

@Cranler said:

@Cloud_imperium said:

Nope , that was Star Citizen .

It's just a trailer. Looks great but very gamey while The Order looks like CGI.

What's really amazing about The Order is that the PS 4 is relatively weak by todays standards yet I find it to be more amazing for today than Gears was for 2006. Gears was arguably no better than Fear on pc while The Order just flat out destroys all.

-Reads user name

-Ignores entire post .

When they can't think of a counter it's time to resort to insults.

How much have you donated to Star Panhandler btw?

facepalm....

"Order looks like CGI" .... no its no more impressive than Gears for its time.... and it does not look like CGI ... the CGI bar moves at the same pace that gaming graphics do. so it NEVER looks like CGI ....

"It looks like agame" oh god is that something bad now?

Some TPS that everyone will ignore after release.... or a Sandbox Mass Effect with incredible depth and persistently upgrading over time. your the only panhandler here ;)

#429 Posted by quakeknight1991 (1142 posts) -

Its a shame really, these awesome graphics and cool setting are getting wasted on a shitty movie-like cover based TPS.

#430 Posted by Speak_Low (1241 posts) -

It's a design choice but Ready At Dawn probably never finished the other part of that statement. "It's a compromise" is more like it, and no different from every Gears and Uncharted game on 360 and PS3 that ended up being 30fps, but maintaining as high a visual bar as possible. That's the trade off that we're likely seeing here with The Order.

I don't think RAD means they had the easy choice between 900p/30fps and 1080p/60fps and just went with 900p for no reason at all. They probably had the option of 1080p/60fps but due to limitations (and inexperience maybe with the hardware - their previous game was for PSP for cryin out loud!) they had to go for 900p/30fps. Maybe it could be 900p/60fps but they start losing lots of effects they want to show off to the world.

I can live with this trade off. And for the record, I never laughed at Ryse for being 900p either. Of course 1080p is best but cut these devs some slack for their first game on a new console. Dayum son

#431 Posted by humanistpotato (555 posts) -

Everything has great gameplay graphics on fairs, then they just look meh in release, or only parts that look that good are the parts they show us. For example they focused on desert scenes in Uncharted 3 but rest of the game looked pretty meh. And those werent as good as they were on the gameplays they've shown before. I love uncharted series but i guess thats how gaming industry works

#432 Posted by Cranler (8809 posts) -

@MBirdy88 said:

@Cranler said:

@Cloud_imperium said:

@Cranler said:

@Cloud_imperium said:

Nope , that was Star Citizen .

It's just a trailer. Looks great but very gamey while The Order looks like CGI.

What's really amazing about The Order is that the PS 4 is relatively weak by todays standards yet I find it to be more amazing for today than Gears was for 2006. Gears was arguably no better than Fear on pc while The Order just flat out destroys all.

-Reads user name

-Ignores entire post .

When they can't think of a counter it's time to resort to insults.

How much have you donated to Star Panhandler btw?

facepalm....

"Order looks like CGI" .... no its no more impressive than Gears for its time.... and it does not look like CGI ... the CGI bar moves at the same pace that gaming graphics do. so it NEVER looks like CGI ....

"It looks like agame" oh god is that something bad now?

Some TPS that everyone will ignore after release.... or a Sandbox Mass Effect with incredible depth and persistently upgrading over time. your the only panhandler here ;)

Sorry, Star Citizen just doesn't impress me like The Order.

SC uses the typical graphical style that most games use while The Order has a totally different style to it's graphics that I've never seen in a game before.

#433 Posted by gpuking (3046 posts) -

OK so a handful of dudes here own some high end cards but do any of you hermits own one or two? What about 65" 4k screens? If not then stfu with this shit. As for design choice, if you don't like it then leave it but acting like it's some technical deficiency of the hardware is plain idiotic. The Order can render 1080p any day of the week with post AA, just like Infamous, Killzone and 99% of other ps4 games. PS4 could have 10tflops of power but still renders at 800p if the devs desire to, it's called a DESIGN CHOICE. I feel like my hair went grey a little by explaining for the 99999th time.

#434 Posted by AM-Gamer (4905 posts) -

@MK-Professor: That's funny you say this because thats the argument I used against Crysis last gen. Hermists said it deserved best visual and I disagreed because it took 3 years after the game released before a single GPU could max the graphics at even a playable framerate.

In regards to the order the fact of the matter though is the devs could have gone full 1080p but they would have reduced it to 2xMsaa instead of 4. Would that have been more impressive for you? You will not be running any of the highest end games a 2x the resolution on pc unless you are running SLI. I don't see PC running Crysis 3, metro are the upcoming SC at 2x the resolution and 60fps on single GPUs and if you have to go into SLI that's just overkill to me. The fact is the asset quality on the order such as (textures,lighting, motion blur and animation) is some of the best used on any game period. Graphically it's stunning and to see a game rival high end CGI used in games is impressive to me even if compromises were made.

#435 Posted by Snugenz (12661 posts) -

@gpuking said:

OK so a handful of dudes here own some high end cards but do any of you hermits own one or two? What about 65" 4k screens? If not then stfu with this shit. As for design choice, if you don't like it then leave it but acting like it's some technical deficiency of the hardware is plain idiotic. The Order can render 1080p any day of the week with post AA, just like Infamous, Killzone and 99% of other ps4 games. PS4 could have 10tflops of power but still renders at 800p if the devs desire to, it's called a DESIGN CHOICE. I feel like my hair went grey a little by explaining for the 99999th time.

You can explain it for the billionth time, it won't make it any less false.

#436 Posted by gpuking (3046 posts) -

You are forever in denial Snugenz, nothing can help you.

#437 Posted by m3dude1 (1512 posts) -

lol 1440p and 60 fps is standard??? so the standard computer setup is now 2 780tis in sli? how long has this been standard?

#438 Posted by Gaming-Planet (14171 posts) -

Dat cover shooter, dem scripted scenes, dat AI. The gameplay is horrendous.

#439 Posted by Snugenz (12661 posts) -

@gpuking said:

You are forever in denial Snugenz, nothing can help you.

Denial about what, you're one of the very few who actually believe the "design choice" bullshit, it is you who's in denial as usual.

Insecurity can play tricks on the mind, especially someone as weak minded as you.

#440 Posted by General_Solo76 (270 posts) -

gpuking is right, it's a design choice by the developers to give it a film like look. Haters gonna hate though.

#441 Edited by AzatiS (7923 posts) -

Oh boy so many haters talking about ....gameplay !!

Lems with shoot shoot and shoot games ... the variety of their exclusives is laughable ...and here they are talking about order ....

Sheeps talking about gameplay 2 gens now where wasnt the case with NES/SNES/N64/GC !! Then they literally shit their pants with a SCRIPTED INGAME CINEMATIC of Zelda while they still mumbling about it as we speak after months... yeah from a scripted ingame cutscene !! But but ... gameplay all that matters ...well not all right ? Sheeps for you!

The order looks amazing , thats all there is to it . You hypocrites!

#442 Edited by Bigboi500 (30545 posts) -

The hate is strong with this one... most hated PS exclusive since TLOU? This game could score a 9 almost everywhere but lems will still be relentless in their smear campaigns.

#444 Posted by StormyJoe (6357 posts) -

@gpuking: and it's NOT 1080p/60fps. How is that possible, Cows? How is it possible that a game that is not 1080p/60fps could look that good? Photoshop?

/sarcasm.

#445 Edited by gpuking (3046 posts) -

It's not even close hermits, The Order is just too good for you.

#447 Posted by Snugenz (12661 posts) -

@scottpsfan14 said:
@gpuking said:

It's not even close hermits, The Order is just too good for you.

I don't know why you even bother. You will NEVER get them to agree with you. They think Dead Space 3 is better graphics on PC. But of course if this game ever came to PC it would automatically be realized as the greatest thing ever. See Ryse PC comments.

Whatever helps you sleep at night. One person said DS3 looked better, but all of a sudden it's "they". How long are you gonna play that victim card, oh wait, you're a cow...

#449 Posted by mikhail (2697 posts) -

@scottpsfan14 said:
@Snugenz said:

Whatever helps you sleep at night. One person said DS3 looked better, but all of a sudden it's "they". How long are you gonna play that victim card, oh wait, you're a cow...

Listen. The Order looks good graphically. And because of this, Lems and Hermits like to downplay it by mentioning black bars and 30fps. They can't just appreciate the games visuals.

I'm not saying it's the absolute best graphics human eyes will ever witness, but for it's genre it's raising the visual bar. I am seriously curious as to what game looks better than it for it's genre.

Here's the problem - while I do admit the game looks good graphically, the issue for me is about how Ready At Dawn is spinning their resolution reduction to 800p with black bars as some kind of stylistic choice to make the game look more "filmic" and "cinematic" and to "enhance the experience" which any reasonable person knows is complete bullshit. Even you.

The fact is that the PS4 has difficulties running this game at even 800p/30fps. Whether that is due to underpowered hardware, inexperienced developers, poor coding, or a combination of the three is irrelevant. The point is, there are people who lapped up Ready at Dawn's PR speak like it was the gospel and are now regurgitating it whenever anyone criticizes The Order in any way. It's crazy talk. It's fine to think this game looks good, it does, but when Sony fanboys start making stupid claims like "You can't see more than 30fps" or "800p is the same as 1080p graphically" or other nonsense, it just makes them look like a bunch of morons. No one believes that nonsense, just look at the recent Order poll I started.