SW loveS DX12 threads. + some XB1, Cloud, Secret Sauce talk.

reposted with a twist. since the initial thread's user didn't have 500 posts. and seeing as though Phil Spencer retweeting this article himself i'd say it has some validity.

http://www.littletinyfrogs.com/article/460524/DirectX_11_vs_DirectX_12_oversimplified

DirectX 11 vs. DirectX 12 oversimplified

Unlike previous versions of DirectX, the difference between the new DirectX and previous generations are obvious enough that they can be explained in charts (and maybe someone with some visual design skill can do this).

This article is an extreme oversimplification. If someone wants to send me a chart to put in this article, I’ll update.

Your CPU and your GPU

Since the start of the PC, we have had the PC and the GPU (or at least, the “video card”).

Up until DirectX 9, the CPU, being 1 core in those days, would talk to the GPU through the “main” thread.

DirectX 10 improved things a bit by allowing multiple cores send jobs to the GPU. This was nice but the pipeline to the GPU was still serialized. Thus, you still ended up with 1 CPU core talking to 1 GPU core.

It’s not about getting close to the hardware

Every time I hear someone say “but X allows you to get close to the hardware” I want to shake them. None of this has to do with getting close to the hardware. It’s all about the cores. Getting “closer” to the hardware is relatively meaningless at this point. It’s almost as bad as those people who think we should be injecting assembly language into our source code. We’re way beyond that.

It’s all about the cores

Last Fall, Nvidia released the Geforce GTX 970. It has 5.2 BILLION transistors on it. It already supports DirectX 12. Right now. It has thousands of cores in it. And with DirectX 11, I can talk to exactly 1 of them at a time.

Meanwhile, your PC might have 4, 8 or more CPU cores on it. And exactly 1 of them at a time can talk to the GPU.

Let’s take a pause here. I want you to think about that for a moment. Think about how limiting that is. Think about how limiting that has been for game developers. How long has your computer been multi-core?

But DirectX 12? In theory, all your cores can talk to the GPU simultaneously. Mantle already does this and the results are spectacular. In fact, most benchmarks that have been talked about have been understated because they seem unbelievable. I’m been part of (non-NDA) meetings where we’ve discussed having to low-ball performance gains to being “only” 40%. The reality is, as in, the real-world, non-benchmark results I’ve seen from Mantle (and presumable DirectX 12 when it’s ready) are far beyond this. The reasons are obvious.

To to summarize:

DirectX 11: Your CPU communicates to the GPU 1 core to 1 core at a time. It is still a big boost over DirectX 9 where only 1 dedicated thread was allowed to talk to the GPU but it’s still only scratching the surface.

DirectX 12: Every core can talk to the GPU at the same time and, depending on the driver, I could theoretically start taking control and talking to all those cores.

That’s basically the difference. Oversimplified to be sure but it’s why everyone is so excited about this.

The GPU wars will really take off as each vendor will now be able to come up with some amazing tools to offload work onto GPUs.

Not just about games

Cloud computing is, ironically, going to be the biggest beneficiary of DirectX 12. That sounds unintuitive but the fact is, there’s nothing stopping a DirectX 12 enabled machine from fully running VMs on these video cards. Ask your IT manager which they’d rather do? Pop in a new video card or replace the whole box. Right now, this isn’t doable because cloud services don’t even have video cards in them typically (I’m looking at you Azure. I can’t use you for offloading Metamaps!)

It’s not magic

DirectX 12 won’t make your PC or XBox One magically faster.

First off, the developer has to write their game so that they’re interacting with the GPU through multiple cores simultaneously. Most games, even today, are still written so that only 1 core is dedicated to interacting with the GPU.

Second, this only benefits you if your game is CPU bound. Most games are. In fact, I’m not sure I’ve ever seen a modern Nvidia card get GPU bound (if anyone can think of an example, please leave it in the comments).

Third, if you’re a XBox One fan, don’t assume this will give the XBO superiority. By the time games come out that use this, you can be assured that Sony will have an answer.

Rapid adoption

There is no doubt in my mind that support for Mantle/DirectX12/xxxx will be rapid because the benefits are both obvious and easy to explain, even to non-technical people. Giving a presentation on the power of Oxide’s new Nitrous 3D engine is easy thanks to the demos but it’s even easier because it’s obvious why it’s so much more capable than anything out there.

If I am making a game that needs thousands of movie-level CGI elements on today’s hardware, I need to be able to walk a non-technical person through what Nitrous is doing differently. The first game to use it should be announced before GDC and in theory, will be the very first native DirectX 12 and Mantle and xxxx game (i.e. written from scratch for those platforms).

A new way of looking at things: Don’t read this because what is read can’t be unread

DirectX 12/etc. will ruin older movies and game effects a little bit. It has for me. Let me give you a straight forward example:

Last warning:

Seriously.

Okay. One of the most obvious limitations games have due to the 1 core to 1 core interaction are light sources. Creating a light source is “expensive” but easily done on today’s hardware. Creating dozens of light sources simultaneously on screen at once is basically not doable unless you have Mantle or DirectX 12. Guess how many light sources most engines support right now? 20? 10? Try 4. Four. Which is fine for a relatively static scene. But it obviously means we’re a long long way from having true “photo realism”.

So your game might have lots of lasers and explosions and such, but only (at most) a few of them are actually real light sources (and 3 of them are typically reserved lighting the scene).

As my son likes to say: You may not know that the lights are fake but your brain knows.

You’ll never watch this battle the same again.

Or this. Wow, those must be magical explosions, they don’t cast shadows…Or maybe it’s a CGI scene..

And once you realize that, you’ll never look at an older CGI movie or a game the same because you’ll see blaster shots and little explosions in a scene and realize they’re not causing shadows or lighting anything in the scene. You subconsciously knew the scene was “fake”. You knew it was filled with CGI but you may not have been able to explain why. Force lightning or a wizard spell that isn’t casting light or shadows on the scene may not be consciously noticeable but believe me, you’re aware of it (modern CGI fixes this btw but our games are still stuck at a handful).

Why I’ve been covering this

Before DirectX 12, I had never really talked about graphics APIs. That’s because I found them depressing. My claim to fame (code-wise) is multithreading AI programming. I wrote the first commercial multithreaded game back in the 90s and I’ve been a big advocate of multithreading since. GalCiv for Windows was the first game to make use of Intel hyperthreading.

Stardock’s games are traditionally famous for good AI. It’s certainly not because I’m a great programmer. It’s because I have always tossed everything from path finding to AI strategy onto threads. The turn time in say Sorcerer King with > 1000 units running around is typically less than 2 seconds. And those are monsters fighting battles with magical spells and lots of pathfinding. That’s all because I can throw all this work onto multiple threads that are now on multiple cores. In essence, I’m cheating. So next time you’re playing a strategy game where you’re waiting 2 minutes between turns, you know why.

But the graphics side? Depressing.

That magical spell is having no affect on the lighting or shadows. You may not notice it consciously but your brain does (DirectX 9). A DirectX 10/11 game would be able to give that spell a point light but as you can see, it’s a stream of light which is a different animal.

You don’t need an expert

Assuming you’re remotely technical, the change from DirectX 11 to DirectX 12/Mantle changes are obvious enough that you should be able to imagine the benefits. If before only 1 core could send jobs to your GPU but now you could have all your cores send jobs at the same time, you can imagine what kinds of things can become possible. Your theoretical improvement in performance is (N-1)X100% where N is how many cores you have. That’s not what you’ll really get. No one writes perfect parallelized code and no GPU is at 0% saturation. But you get the idea.

the MS conference this month should be nothing but interesting. there should be meltdowns everywhere along with relentless gloating and fingerpointing.

#blast processor

Sorry lemmings. Even Brad Wardell, DX12 hype monkey extraordinaire, can't make the same case for the Bone.

It's over.

@GrenadeLauncher said:

Sorry lemmings. Even Brad Wardell, DX12 hype monkey extraordinaire, can't make the same case for the Bone.

It's over.

Cool, you completely read it wrong.

1. It's a developer thing
2. So most games are CPU bound, so it will have an effect
3. It won't give superiority, but nobody asked for that. He is clearly saying: Yes it will help, but Sony will do something similar. AKA DX12 will help the Xbox One.

Owned by your own picture

And of course, you fail to take into account the Xbone already has most of the DX12 benefits the PC will enjoy in its API.

DX12 gonna do jack squat, friend.

@GrenadeLauncher said:

Sorry lemmings. Even Brad Wardell, DX12 hype monkey extraordinaire, can't make the same case for the Bone.

It's over.

Look Stupid,

Microsoft software engineers > Sony software engineers.

So, to say "Sony will have a n answer", is baseless speculation.

Microsoft engineers built the .Net Framework, they built Azure, development studios ask them for help. They built Windows, SQL Server, IE, and Office. So to sit there and say "Sony engineers can do the same blah, blah, blah" proves you have no idea what the Hell you are talking about.

What a baseless assumption and fanboyish claim.

Microsoft's product lines have been riddled with horrible engineering for the past 20 years. Anybody in the software industry knows that. I fight with .NET every single day at work despite how powerful it is.

its stormyclown, he claims to work in software yet he always posts completely ignorant things about it.

And now lems are arguing that games are cpu bound xD how desperate they have to be.

Sounds like the future of PC gaming is better than ever. Its a shame that consoles today won't be able to handle it but its good to know that the next generation of machines will be able to take full advantage of this stuff.

Either he stated it wrong or just plain wrong, but the cpu does not just talk one core..... its talks to the gpu as a whole, gpu's are parallelized based systems using hundreds to thousands of small processors together to do tasks. Its up to the API and drivers to prioritize what needs to be done first. With DX12 they will be able to control more of the gpu's resources as well with the cpu's abilities communicating with the gpu.

Gotta laugh at the meltdowns. Let the trolls say what they want. The truth is coming. Only a matter of time. The SDK Leak is just a small glimpse of what's to come. The fun is just beginning. Greatness is coming.

Another quality post from StormyJoe, who by the way is not a Microsoft fanboy, he swears.

DX is just a graphics API, I never understood the fascination. OpenGL and Mantle is much the same thing, it's down the the GPU what features are supported.

As for them making the DX CPU thread handling less shit, then yay I suppose.

Problem is that games are cpu bound, cpu's feed the gpu the data it needs, if the cpu isn't up to the task since it has to do other tasks as well and there isnt enough free resources to go around then that is where you become bottlenecked. And PS4 is every bit as bottlenecked as the X1 when it comes to their cpu's.

PS4 since it has the stronger gpu which can ask for more data from the cpu. Also when parity, or lower resolutions/settings are used. The cpu becomes a bigger issue for the PS4 since now the gpu isnt getting larger amounts of data which takes longer to process. But now its getting smaller amounts of data which the gpu gets done quicker which means that the cpu has to feed data to the gpu at a faster rate again showing if the cpu can or cant keep up the the gpu's demands as well with doing it needs to do.

I am not an XBox fanboy. I will admit that I am a fan of MS's development suites and SQL Server.

Thhis is the problem of 12 yo olds reading some article they have no clue about and coming to forums with their system warrior cape to show how completely ignorant they are, everything uses cpu d'uh, cpu bound means it i more cpu dependant, which ps4 and xbones games are not, the consoles were made in a way they use more the gpu than the cpu, thats why they used medium gpus together with a weak ass cpu. And remember both consoles use the same cpu and architechture, because you scrubs think that a 0.15 ghz lems are desperate to act as if we are talking about an i7 vs an athlon here.

@Wasdie - Try using Java, it's 10x worse. .Net's incorporation of MVC is awesome, as is the latest ADO. Plus, we have had better performance out of .Net web services than any other competing tech. And, dollar for feature, SQL Server is one of the best database platforms out there. EDMX is garbage, but so are all the other ORM's out there.

@Krelian-co - Why are you even responding? You don't know a thing about software development, MS's solutions or otherwise.

Java is worse I'm not denying that, but it doesn't suddenly erase the tons of engineering mistakes that Microsoft has made over the decades. .NET was hardly as good as it was now when it first released. Even throughout 2.0 it was still rocky.

You still can't just say Microsoft's Engineers > Sony's. There is no basis for that other than just being a fanboy.

Also it's clear the PS4 is the better designed and engineered piece of hardware than the Xbox One. So I really don't know where you're getting that statement from.

give it up clowny don't look more ignorant than what you already are, wasdie actually knows what he is talking aout instead of what he read somewhere on some article on the internet.

The RG Lead Programmer is clearly talking about DX12 for PC... Not the skimmed down version for Xbox One...

And Lol at saying Linux and Open Office are better products.

@tymeservesfate: that was interesting read. Can I sniff that girl in your sig?

Ah because stability is the only way to rate an OS? Not usability for example? And I'm not a Microsoft fanboy, I'm typing this on a mac...

Xbots have truly become the ps3 fanboys from last gen hyping the piece of chit cell processor. Soon they start to move from game to game claiming that this upcoming game shows "the hidden power" only to be embarrassed each time. Excuses will roll "they just got new sdk's" "this next game will show you" "just wait"

Not sure if this aimed at my post or just in general but being more cpu dependent is being cpu bound. Even with games that are not as cpu dependent having a crappy cpu can and will limit the gpu's abilities hence the need for fps caps and even lower resolutions/settings on both consoles. Fact is Sony fanboys and MS fanboys are equally as dumb defending their favorite console and bashing the other, Cows are known to be really bad at bashing.....

In the end their not that far apart as they would like. Both cpus in both consoles suck you guys dont realize how much they are limiting things. DX 12 will help the Xbox some but not enough to allow it to become on par with the PS4. But its funny to watch the Cows bash the X1 more and more with every slight gain it gets to help it out even if its minuscule, its like their afraid. Its one thing to point out a debunk the hype and fantasies that DX12 and the cloud will do, its another the bash actual gains.

Linux IS BETTER, open office not sure, never tried it, every single person that knows about software knows linux is way better, windows is more user friendly and has directx, those two things are targeted at the bigger population, people who don't know better and gamers, bbut that doesn't mean it's better.

I can by empirical evidence that Sony was unable to provide adequate support for developers during the first years of the PS3, while MS is able to do that for XB1. I can say that because Microsoft is a software company, and Sony is not.

Yeah. Sure.

Look Dummy, just so you know, I am a certified DBA and .Net developer. I've worked in the banking, finance, and manufacturing environments creating software that does everything from web commerce to controlling $100m hot strip mill equipment for US Steel.

So, why don't you keep your trap shut and let the big boys talk, OK?

I am an applications developer, not a game developer.

yeah you are <insert x fantasy here> and then come and look like a complete utter ignorant that has no clue.

Hey i am Bill Gates, oh wait i thought we could say whatever we felt like it on the internet. By the way you talk and how dumb you are you must be some lonely idiot on a basement who reads some internet articles before going into forums to look like a moron with his microsoft cape "but microsoft da bestest engineers" LOL

wasdie already made you look like a fool i am just adding the extra lol.

@GrenadeLauncher said:

Sorry lemmings. Even Brad Wardell, DX12 hype monkey extraordinaire, can't make the same case for the Bone.

It's over.

Sony cant even fix its online and you expect them to counter something as complex and as magical as DX12? ROFL!!!!!!!!! Bookmarked bro. I applaud your ability to go right to the bag on Sony's shaft.

Java is no better. meh. so what's your point?

Sure as shit if there is a DX12 thread, your scared assumption will be found just as you worship Tornamentoes and his mental conditions.

Back on topic. Be afraid of DX12 and what it will do to your ego.

And a little Tornamentoes pie chart on Linux

Why would you say it's better designed and engineered? Because the GPU is stronger? Then everyone with a killer gaming-rig PC is a better engineer and designer than Sony engineers?

@Krelian-co: I see you are describing yourself.

I am a developer by profession. My actual title is "Director Of Database Administration/Senior Software Engineer", if you must know.

well some of us had a bigger budget. and bigger cases.

This gen so far:

Lems: We'll get the secret sauce that'll put us above Ps4!
Cows: Lower FPS and blacks bars for increased cinematicness!
Sheep: WE LOVE WHATEVER NINTENDO THROWS AT US. DROUGHTS FTW
Hermits:

Manticores: I own all platforms, so I'm not a fanboy. I own all platforms, so I'm not a fanboy. I own all platforms, so I'm not a fanboy. I own all platforms, so I'm not a fanboy.

yet you didn't know the differences of a closed company cloud and a regular one or the differences between a normal cloud and a gaming cloud and how they would work, you are an ignorant and no one believes your bullshit basement troll.

@freedomfreak: manticores was by far the funniest.

@CrownKingArthur: Thank you, CKA. I tried to be as accurate as possible.

@FastRobby: imo it's not better engineered. I did think that initially but after reading more about the Xbox one I believe that it's the first dx12 cloud ready device in the world. If so it's beyond what's on the ps4 with respect to engineering.

also Ive worked with enginers from ms and and ibm... MS Apple and Google have the best engineers in my opinion. Don't be fooled by bad managers and working with legacy code. They hire the top 10 percent of Waterloo students.. That university would be equivalent to MIT..

Consider how they're able to update the Xbox at an absurd rate so far in its lifecycle ...clearly this machine was shipped with the wrong tools and api... That's a business decision not an engineering choice ..

Nice!! Maybe finally PC can get games that look noticeably better than console games :)

Does my GTX 970 have DX12?

Oh, Krelian-co... now I remember why I normally ignore you.

Well, back to the norm...

WTF...hahahaaaaaaaaaaaa

Yeah that is the reason why sony kicked the living crap out of MS last gen with exclusives,even that the PS3 was leagues more difficult and had a weaker GPU...hahahaa

If i trust a company to get every single drop of performance from a console it would be sony,MS toll are total shit and the only thing they have done for the industry is make things easy while burring effectiveness of GPU and CPU over legacy.

Even AMD complained about DX and tag it as an APi that got in the way and that developers wanted gone,funny enough that was on 2011,and by 2013 AMD already had mantle which is what MS is trying to emulate with DX12 and every freaking one knows it,MS once again like in PRT is late to the fu**ing party and is trying to trick suckers into believing that DX12 is the second coming of Christ in API form,is nothing but a late ass response by MS because it saw it was behind.

MS was late with Tile Resources something OpenGL has support since 2011 in hardware and even before that in Virtual texturing form,and now Mantle..

Funny because i have been saying for a long time that DX12 is a late response from MS about Mantle and look...

But DirectX 12? In theory, all your cores can talk to the GPU simultaneously. Mantle already does this and the results are spectacular.

Hahahaha this same thread....lol

I was freaking right and those gains are inside the xbox one since day 1.

Sony had do that since last gen idiot,fu**ing learn what Spurs in and the talk shit,what sony ran on Cell MS would never run it on that Jaguar..

GT6 has adaptive Tessellation for god sake...hahahahaa

So you say is baseless assumption that sony will have an answer.?

The PS4 API works like Mantle where the fu** have you been.? Why do you think Frostbite will be optimized for Mantle and the PS4.?

Mantle what bring to PC is console like programability,the same shit the xbox one had since launch and the 360 had for years...

Mantle Exposes More Low Level Features Than DX12, Shares Many Rendering Codes With PS4/Xbox One.

http://gamingbolt.com/mantle-exposes-more-low-level-features-than-dx12-shares-many-rendering-codes-with-ps4xbox-one#vJ08Eor5oRo8c3U8.99

This is old news DX12 will do shit for the xbox one,other than making easier to port games from PC to XBO and the other way around.

You people just don't listen..

because i point out your bullshit and make you look like an ignorant fool? yeah.

Lol stormyjoe finally exposed as the fevered lem that he is. About time he was honest..

@tormentos: Hey do you remember our bet? You will leave system wars if DX12 increases the performance of the Xbox One.

Anyone else care to wager their accounts?