Sucker Punch: PS4 CPU a bottleneck, one of many.

@tormentos:

Yes its out of date , its over 5 months old.

The challenge is fake because it gives AMD the position to say its here why didn't you use it Problem is that they control how Mantle is used and to the fact that your rivals have to expose and share their designs to make Mantle compatible. Saying its open and it actually being open are two different things.

Then really you think AMD is pushing anything? Creating an API based on their drivers for their hardware is not special or new, nor did it push MS into playing catch up. Then creating hardware to support certain techniques and features before MS or even Opengl incorporated into the design does not mean crap. Its no different from tessellation support for example ATI's hardware back in 2000 supported it was called TruForm but yet was not a standard in API's until many years later. Having tiled resource support and PRT support years before means nothing if developers will not use those features until its necessary.

@tormentos:

LOL Tormentos still fighting the fine fight, face it dude DX12 + Cloud will be here for every Xbox One game, enjoy the honeymoon while it lasts. Investors want a $8 billion revenue stream dead?? Did you read the last quarter financial results for MS. What you smoking man? More like Sony will be 6 feet under this time next year.

So once again you have no link no info no nothing just your opinion..?

My link >>>>>>>>>> your opinion,find me quotes from AMD saying Mantle doesn't work on Nvidia GPU and you may have something..

Where does it say that Nvidia has to expose their hardware.? link please..

Again Mantle is here,DX12 is not and will be not until late 2015,by that time it would have been almost close 7 years since the last DX hit,so who is playing catch up oh that without saying the info i showed in my thread about Dx from MS own mouth saying how they would bring xbox features to PC..

Stop your sucking to MS they are behind and have been behind for quite some time in many things,in fact so behind there were that Sony actually had better tools than they had..

Oh please at least you will be here so i can make some fun of you in the next couple of years when the xbox one fail to catch the PS4.

The xbox one didn't make MS 8 billions monkey,in fact the xbox brand wasn't even discuss if you are intelligent enough you know why..lol

That Titanfall fall bundle + credit to retailers most have really hurt them..lol

lol your so lame, if you had a half of a brain you see it

If it's not open then it is closed. There is no middle ground for being open or closed source, and Mantle is proprietary because AMD holds all the rights to it, that is what proprietary means. Mantle will be closed and proprietary until the day they license it under a free license then Nvidia could use it freely without having to go to and through AMD.

Again Mantle is a joke when you have a non AMD cpu... and Nvidia's recent "driver" updates prove it too, proprietary API is not the answer for the future as architectures change and evolve once AMD moves away from GCN all games that supported mantle based on GCN will not work and will be stuck with DX 11/12. AMD's Mantle, its days are numbered because AMD will have to promote and pay developers to spend time and money coding for it. The Vast majority will use OpenGL or DX11/12 since they have to incorporate it anyways. and if DX12 supplies the same gains as mantle does there will be no point in general to put in mantle since DX12 will work on all vendors.

You need to stop sucking on Sony's teat..... by the way.

LINK and stop spinning...

Why would you needa link for this either mantle is open source or it's not. You can google that and find out

Mantle was clearly designed with GCN in mind, so when AMD talks about other vendors being able to utilize Mantle does that mean that Mantle will work on their current Architecture? Or will the actual architecture of rival vendors (Nvidia) be need to be modified to support Mantle? If its the later then this is a very subtle move from AMD’s side pushing towards a Red Future.Read more:http://wccftech.com/amd-mantle-api-require-gcn-work-nvidia-graphic-cards/#ixzz30GqgusiQ

Unless AMD suddenly decided to make Mantle, Multi-Vendor (Unlikely) AMD had been planning this all along yet all information previously pointed towards a GCN Only Mantle API.Read more: http://wccftech.com/amd-mantle-api-require-gcn-work-nvidia-graphic-cards/#ixzz30GsZ2W58

Nvidia not interested in Mantle or changing their architecture

http://www.maximumpc.com/nvidia_takes_mantle_enhanced_dx11_driver_2014

http://www.eteknix.com/nvidia-asked-amd-mantle-montreal-event/

They talk about too many api's already being on the market so I'm guessing they will continue to stick with DX.

lol nice meltdown from Insipid8

Top posting tormentos, love it when these lems lose it and push their cloud crap to hide the pain.

Oh please. That is what MS CLAIM which is what any vendor will say,ask AMD if their GPU are the best for gaming..

By the way the PS4 doesn't use OpenGL it uses its own API which is closer to the metal than OpenGL and DX12 to..

So once again no proof what so ever that it doesn't work with Nvidia GPU.?

Off course Nvidia will not support it is like MS using Mantle or Opengl yeah that would happen.

http://www.techspot.com/review/793-thief-battlefield-4-mantle-performance/page2.html

Mantle even increased performance using Intel CPU....

Maybe this benchmark will shut you people up,how do you think DX12 will work across several GPU.? Yeah in the same way Mantle can work.

Yes there are other developers who doubt what MS say and some even laugh at it..

Just like MS claimed the cloud will improve graphics yet Titanfall a game build around the so call cloud look average at best and is not even 900p.

Tile resources = PRT which is the point,MS took something already done change its name and call it exclusive..lol

Call me when the xbox one surpass the PS4..

Nearly five days on and lemmings are still trying to push this shit. Laughable people.

Boy O Boy.... AMD wont let Nvidia use their Mantle because it would steal their thunder and hype and then Nvidia wont use it because it does not give enough improvements to hassle with and that they would have to share information to AMD about their plans and designs to AMD. Mantle is not open source....

yeah 2-3 fps gain in a i7 thats a lot..... not...... and that's on a 290x any lower based gpu sees no real difference at 1080+ with intel.

Try those intel cpu's that are around 4ghz or higher you see nothing.

Really? thinking that DX 12 wont do the same thing as Mantle across multiple gpus.... All mantle is doing to lowering cpu overhead across all cores which DX 12 will be able to do too.

Nearly a 50% decrease in cpu load ,

Nvidia through plain old driver optimization through DX 11 showed even with the especially and carefully planned show case for Mantle the Star Swarm demo NVIDIA pulled through with higher scores using only DX11, 780ti is around 40 % faster than 290x before the driver update then with the new driver doubled the performance over 290x in DX11. Going from DX11 to mantle allowed 290x to be 5% faster then 780ti with older driver. Then after the new driver made it 20% faster then mantle 290x.

@tormentos: No one has put SOFTWARE and HARDWARE on the same system which is MS TR or virtual texture streaming .PRT is software for OpenGL and Tiled resouces for dx.

Yes OpenGL has PRT but it would be a waste of resources on the ps4 because the gpu has to encode and decode video memory.(maker of Granite SDK said it find it if you want to)

and yes ps4 API is closer to the metal but it has 2 API+a DX and a OpenGL wrapper thats overhead.

How many alts do you need?

You still haven't prove me wrong period what AMD say is there and the gains even apply to Intel CPU lol..

Yeah i hear about the whole 50% crap already this is coming from MS to take it with a grain on salt,it was a test done to some how show their suppose gains,and we all know MS has level lie about performance claims right.?

Wow I have never read so much garbage in one post. I see why no one argues with you its pointless. You refuse to make any sense accuse people of making things up and you continue to spout rubbish as fact.

SO are you an AMD fanboy too? Do you own an AMD processor and GPU or is this like the not owning but praising the PS4 thing?

Mantle for me has been underwhelming. I have a 7950 and ivy bridge i5 and I get no boost from mantle in bf4. In fact I actually take a Huge hit in performance. I go from steady 60fps to a shuddering mess with drops into the 30s. So yeah mantle is a joke right now imo. I'm considering going green actually now lol.

Dude what the fu** the PS4 API support PRT in hardware software wise even the PS3 and xbox 360 support it,you really know sh** about what your claiming do you.?

PRT is HARDWARE you buffoon,is HARDWARE support on AMD why do you think MS doesn't call it that way.? Yeah because PRT which is a term AMD made popular will not look pretty on Nvidia GPU..lol

OpenGL is the software part PRT is the hardware part inside every AMD GPU of the 7000 series and up.

That bold part is one of the most stupid ass sentences ever...

PRT but it would be a waste of resources on the ps4 because the gpu has to encode and decode video memory.(maker of Granite SDK said it find it if you want to)

hahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa..............

First of all encoding and decoding is done on PS4 by separate hardware which have nothing to do with it GPU,hell the PS4 can record 15 minutes of gameplay actually more than double than the xbox one,that part is totally irrelevant to PRT,you really know sh** of what your saying you are just a buffoon making silly statements..

Yeah Granite say PRT will be an advantage on PS4 because the PS4 GDDR5,working together with HSA and hUMA will triple the performance of ESRAM on the xbox one do to extreme quantum gains... Look it up granite say it...lol

Hahahaha.... You are really a sad dumb lemming,the PS4 neither use Opengl or DX,it uses an API call LibGNM...hahahaa not even that you know...hahahahaa

lol your such a bad troll, your "proof" shows it at best you see 3 fps (5%) gains at or above 1080p with mantle with intel and you see no gains using any gpu under 290x at 1080p+. A faster clocked i7 = even less results.

Mantle's purpose is to lower and evenly distribute the cpu workload communicating to gpu..... Mantle sees more impressive results using lower tiered cpu's with higher end gpu's. Which is why intel based cpu's with AMD gpu see little to no real gains with mantle since those cpu's can supply the gpu the data while doing the other jobs.

You think 50% less cpu overhead = 50% increase in performance? really is that what your thinking ? you will see the near the same damn results as Mantle.

First of all i don't own an AMD GPU and my l;ast GPU was a 240GT last time i check it was from Nvidia not AMD,second i am not cheering for AMD,i am actually stating a damn fact here,funny enough 04Dcarraher was one of those who claimed that optimization was a lie,in his countless arguments against consoles,and now that MS will copy what AMD was doing by bringing lower CPU over head all of the sudden optimization will bring 50% lover over head to PC...Funny how things work...

WTF man i have argue here for years owning a fu**ing piece of hardware give you no validity what so freaking ever here,i owned a PS3,xbox 360 and wii since day 1 all 3,did that make my arguments valid vs lemmings or hermits.? No it did not.

In fact i even compare games like Uncharted 3 and GOW 3 directly i even posted videos exposing GOW problems and limitation do you think any one care.? Or that any one say i was right.? lol they just enter huge denial and move one....

So owning a PS4 or not will change anything here,several people here own a damn PS4 and doesn't make any more valid their arguments against lemming,the whole you don't own a PS4 argument was bring by Kinglemming after losing an argument with me,argument that buffoons like you pick up when you also loss them..

Hey did you know Blackace also owned a PS3.? Did you know that he didn't even know that he could share PSN games.? yeah when you own something but you are miss informed or plain don't know how your system even works is much worse..

lol all your posts are so bias and full of BS, whats funny is that you think of what others say is totally ass backwards in your mind. your claim that I made about optimization is so funny since you ignored the whole core what it was about... downgrading shit to fit the hardware is apart of it.

then while we are on the that subject optimization did not allow the 360 or PS3 truly perform better then on par unified shader based pc gpu's with a decent dual core cpu. Fact is that Carmark's optimization claims where in comparison to direct x 9 vs last gen consoles using customized hardware they had to learn, it includes the whole field of optimization with equal hardware abilities.

CPU is always the bottleneck these days, but it sucks for the PS4/Xbox One as they've basically got a low powered Laptop CPU.

Sure dude what ever you say man so care to point the parts that are wrong..?

Instead of just complain.?

Great benchmarks all over the net say the opposite.

And your such a hypocrite after all the sh** you pull downplaying optimization,now you hold tied to MS ass because some how 12 now will bring to PC what consoles have for years,so now reducing CPU over head will produce gains,but on consoles it was just a lie..lol

Even Intel CPU got a damn win from it how could that be...lol

Hey hermit...

Explain to me how the i3 4130 with Mantle is actually faster than an i7 4770 with DX11 using the same damn GPU.?

Quote me saying that because that is what i have been arguing with lemmings that the gains will not be 50%...

Now stop been a cry baby the info i posted is backed by benchmarks and information backed by AMD and other sites not invented by me..

Yeah please point at the downgrades because that i know all sony games on PS3 were 720p or higher....

considering the GPU the PS3 has which was a gimped 7800 with half he bandwidth cut and half the ROP as well it turn out to do miracles..

@tormentos:

look at your charts lol dont look at the 1680x1050.... look at 1920x1200, DX11 vs Mantle 3 fps do you know that i3's have four threads and because of mantle you see 4 fps gain.

fact that i7 and i3 yielded nearly same results under mantle shows that game does not use 4+ cores/threads correctly.

Also dont even go there with the PS3.... lol what downgrades? please you cant be serious

Using the Cell to make up what the RSX couldn't do is not a miracle it was necessary, urgent, nearly a panic attack type of issue to be able to be on par with 360. They had to make use of the unused SPE's which were designed to do graphics work to begin with.

SW should give up on those ad hominem falacies, like demanding someone to own a console to have a say... this drag discussions too much without actually touching the arguments made...

@tormentos: stupid ass go show me this video encoder and decoder for audio yes but not video you such a troll we not even talking about recorded video you a fruit basket you have no idea what you talking about and still haven't copy and paste the onion bus and the super onion bus

@tormentos: take benchmarks with a grain of salt because people have different set ups and don't always match the benchmarks you are using. Also I'm not the only one having issues with mantle on a 7950 in Bf4. A quick google search will show you that.

Guys, API's like Mantle, DX12 and improvements in DX11/Open GL won't really show their true colors until game engines start properly utilizing the new API's and improving the way workloads are spread out on the CPU, and memory is optimized for both CPU and GPU consumption specially for compute.

None of the game engines out now do this kind of modern engine stuff that we WILL be seeing next year. Right now we are seeing decent performance improvements (Nvidia's latest DX 11 tweaks boosted performanc eby a LOT in many games for example), but later we're going to see not just a lot betetr performance, but more EVEN performance, and better still AI and physics effects that will take better advanatge of modern CPU's and GPU's compute.

Chillax, it's early still.

Where does it say that.? I read all that article and what is does it confirm what i have been saying all alone..

“The Granite SDK supports both software and hardware virtual texturing. The latter is also called “Tiled Resources” in DX 11.2 or Partially Resident Textures in OpenGL. The benefit with hardware virtual texturing is that the hardware now takes care of filtering across tile borders as well as fetching the correct pixel from the cache.

PRT=Tile Resources = Virtual texturing = Mega Textures. in hardware...lol

From Granite own mouth PRT is tile resources,the only difference between both is the naming because PRT are call in OpenGL and Tile Resources on DX bu the same sh** like i have been saying all alone..

Freeing Up Resources: The PS4's Dedicated Units

Another thing the PlayStation 4 team did to increase the flexibility of the console is to put many of its basic functions on dedicated units on the board -- that way, you don't have to allocate resources to handling these things.

"The reason we use dedicated units is it means the overhead as far as games are concerned is very low," said Cerny. "It also establishes a baseline that we can use in our user experience."

"For example, by having the hardware dedicated unit for audio, that means we can support audio chat without the games needing to dedicate any significant resources to them.

The same thing for compression and decompression of video." The audio unit also handles decompression of "a very large number" of MP3 streams for in-game audio, Cerny added.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/191007/inside_the_playstation_4_with_mark_.php?page=3

OWNED...

butbutbut the PS4 CPU will have to do it all..hahahahahaahaaaaaaaa

Meanwhile reality strikes...lol

“The Granite SDK supports both software and hardware virtual texturing. The latter is also called “Tiled Resources” in DX 11.2 or Partially Resident Textures in OpenGL. The benefit with hardware virtual texturing is that the hardware now takes care of filtering across tile borders as well as fetching the correct pixel from the cache.

Let me re quote this... as well PRT = Tile resources...now this was posted 2 days ago...lol

Are you both really arguing over the absolutely tiny performance difference between DX11's implementation of tiled resources and OpenGL's?

Both offer a decent performance increase in certain applications (that's why they were developed in the first place) and you would be hard pressed to find any real difference in the increases they provide. Tiled resources may run just a tiny bit better than OpenGL's implementation (DirectX a lot of things just a bit better than OpenGL and vise versa), but you're looking at a few percent difference in total performance. So in one application you see 50% better FPS with OpenGL's PRT and 55% better FPS with DirectX's Tiled Resources. That 5% difference means absolutely nothing. This is why benchmarks are a hilariously terrible way of measuring real world performance.

Anybody here arguing over this completely misses the point of this technology and is just throwing together random performance crap they find on the internet in a hilariously desperate attempt to "own" somebody.