Steam is a Worse DRM Than Xbone

Nothing stays the same forever. I hate speculation personally. I rather wait and see whats really going to happen.FPSfan1985

Exactly what are you expecting to happen? We've got proven systems on the PC that are going to keep going. Even EA has bowed down to the mighty Steam Sale and has offered some excellent deals on Origin. 

[QUOTE="Wasdie"]

[QUOTE="FPSfan1985"] Who knows how it will work. Just the other day Live had NBA 2K13 50% off. Just today they released Tomb Raider on Live for $30, the game is still $50 on Steam. All I hear is a bunch of speculation.FPSfan1985

Tomb Raider has had several sales. I've seen it for less than $30 a few times already.

You can hear what you want but you cannot deny history. What we've seen in the past is lower prices for PC games across the board. It's that simple. Games launch for cheaper on average and they come down in price faster. 

then you really shouldn't be on system wars.  But there doesn't appear to be any evidence that gaming prices on consoles will vary from current trends

[QUOTE="senses_fail_06"]

Not legally binding? Why does that matter. You still aren't allowed to do it according to STEAM. Just because you won't be sued or imprisoned doesn't mean you have the right to do it.

ChubbyGuy40

The countries various laws are what let you do it. Valve could complain all they want but they still won't get their way.

The system is still not set up to do that. I don't care if you won't get into legal trouble or not (you still risk losing your account), that's not the point.

[QUOTE="FPSfan1985"]Who knows how it will work. Just the other day Live had NBA 2K13 50% off. Just today they released Tomb Raider on Live for $30, the game is still $50 on Steam. All I hear is a bunch of speculation.ChubbyGuy40

Steam is not the only place to buy Steam games. You could've got Tomb Raider for $20-30 day 1 for PC.

[QUOTE="ChubbyGuy40"]

[QUOTE="FPSfan1985"]Who knows how it will work. Just the other day Live had NBA 2K13 50% off. Just today they released Tomb Raider on Live for $30, the game is still $50 on Steam. All I hear is a bunch of speculation.FPSfan1985

Steam is not the only place to buy Steam games. You could've got Tomb Raider for $20-30 day 1 for PC.

no it makes perfect sense. Wasdie explained it earlier

[QUOTE="FPSfan1985"] Nothing stays the same forever. I hate speculation personally. I rather wait and see whats really going to happen.Wasdie

Exactly what are you expecting to happen? We've got proven systems on the PC that are going to keep going. Even EA has bowed down to the mighty Steam Sale and has offered some excellent deals on Origin. 

[QUOTE="ChubbyGuy40"]

[QUOTE="FPSfan1985"]Who knows how it will work. Just the other day Live had NBA 2K13 50% off. Just today they released Tomb Raider on Live for $30, the game is still $50 on Steam. All I hear is a bunch of speculation.FPSfan1985

Steam is not the only place to buy Steam games. You could've got Tomb Raider for $20-30 day 1 for PC.

It's not BS, it's economics. You are just trying to find some sort of an argument in it. 

I will guarentee you if console games were half their price or cheaper this whole issue of used games and lending would just go away. 100% guarnetee you that.

At $60 a consumer is a lot less willing to put up with these kinds of blocks on their producs but at $20-30 the whole situations changes. They are paying less of their own money to get a product. They are going to be far more willing to put up with things like DRM.

This is economics 101. You can disagree but that's not going to change what it is.

[QUOTE="Wasdie"]

[QUOTE="FPSfan1985"] Nothing stays the same forever. I hate speculation personally. I rather wait and see whats really going to happen.FPSfan1985

Exactly what are you expecting to happen? We've got proven systems on the PC that are going to keep going. Even EA has bowed down to the mighty Steam Sale and has offered some excellent deals on Origin. 

But if it's all offered only through microsofts store, there is no competition to drive price down.

[QUOTE="FPSfan1985"][QUOTE="ChubbyGuy40"]

Steam is not the only place to buy Steam games. You could've got Tomb Raider for $20-30 day 1 for PC.

lostrib

no it makes perfect sense. Wasdie explained it earlier

[QUOTE="Wasdie"]

[QUOTE="FPSfan1985"] Nothing stays the same forever. I hate speculation personally. I rather wait and see whats really going to happen.FPSfan1985

Exactly what are you expecting to happen? We've got proven systems on the PC that are going to keep going. Even EA has bowed down to the mighty Steam Sale and has offered some excellent deals on Origin. 

Didn't happen last gen and I don't see any reason for it to happen this gen. Their DD stores are closed. They don't have competition on the digital front. They have the 1st party stores and retail outlets, that's it. For the past 20 years we've seen retailers unwilling to drop prices or do meaningful sales.

Removing used games from the picture may fluctuate prices a bit, but when brand new games are still selling 10+ million at $60 despite used game alternatives only a few days after launch, what reason does anybody have to lower their prices?

[QUOTE="lostrib"]

[QUOTE="FPSfan1985"] Yea I know. I've had a steam account since 2004 didn't like it then, don't like it now. I only use steam when I have to, which in it's self is a bunch of crap. Now I have to use fvcking Origin too. But to say this form of DRM is okay just because the games are cheap is complete BS. FPSfan1985

no it makes perfect sense. Wasdie explained it earlier

We're talking in the general sense, not you specifically.  You would end up in the minority of people, screaming at the wind

[QUOTE="FPSfan1985"][QUOTE="Wasdie"]

Steam is not the only place to buy Steam games. You could've got Tomb Raider for $20-30 day 1 for PC.

lostrib

It's not BS, it's economics. You are just trying to find some sort of an argument in it. 

I will guarentee you if console games were half their price or cheaper this whole issue of used games and lending would just go away. 100% guarnetee you that.

At $60 a consumer is a lot less willing to put up with these kinds of blocks on their producs but at $20-30 the whole situations changes. They are paying less of their own money to get a product. They are going to be far more willing to put up with things like DRM.

This is economics 101. You can disagree but that's not going to change what it is.

Maybe you guys, but not me. I've been and will continue to say that these DRM services are a bunch of crap. The fact there are sites that do the exact same thing without forcing you into using some app, further makes my point.FPSfan1985

Please tell me you don't pay for XBL. 

[QUOTE="FPSfan1985"][QUOTE="Wasdie"]

Exactly what are you expecting to happen? We've got proven systems on the PC that are going to keep going. Even EA has bowed down to the mighty Steam Sale and has offered some excellent deals on Origin. 

Wasdie

Didn't happen last gen and I don't see any reason for it to happen this gen. Their DD stores are closed. They don't have competition on the digital front. They have the 1st party stores and retail outlets, that's it. For the past 20 years we've seen retailers unwilling to drop prices or do meaningful sales.

Removing used games from the picture may fluctuate prices a bit, but when brand new games are still selling 10+ million at $60 despite used game alternatives only a few days after launch, what reason does anybody have to lower their prices?

[QUOTE="FPSfan1985"]Maybe you guys, but not me. I've been and will continue to say that these DRM services are a bunch of crap. The fact there are sites that do the exact same thing without forcing you into using some app, further makes my point.Wasdie

Please tell me you don't pay for XBL. 

[QUOTE="Wasdie"]

[QUOTE="FPSfan1985"] This exact thing to happen on Console. These publishers are dumb. They would much rather mark down a game than have you go buy it used. DD offers them that option. They don't have to worry about the whole paying the retailer back crap.FPSfan1985

Didn't happen last gen and I don't see any reason for it to happen this gen. Their DD stores are closed. They don't have competition on the digital front. They have the 1st party stores and retail outlets, that's it. For the past 20 years we've seen retailers unwilling to drop prices or do meaningful sales.

Removing used games from the picture may fluctuate prices a bit, but when brand new games are still selling 10+ million at $60 despite used game alternatives only a few days after launch, what reason does anybody have to lower their prices?

[QUOTE="FPSfan1985"][QUOTE="Wasdie"]

Didn't happen last gen and I don't see any reason for it to happen this gen. Their DD stores are closed. They don't have competition on the digital front. They have the 1st party stores and retail outlets, that's it. For the past 20 years we've seen retailers unwilling to drop prices or do meaningful sales.

Removing used games from the picture may fluctuate prices a bit, but when brand new games are still selling 10+ million at $60 despite used game alternatives only a few days after launch, what reason does anybody have to lower their prices?

legalize82

 

Not legally binding? Why does that matter. You still aren't allowed to do it according to STEAM.

senses_fail_06

What's more, I'm also allowed to copy DRM free game and lend it to my friend without using Steam at all.

I'm telling you guys, DD is the way the industry should go. More revenue for the publishers/developers and no greedy retailers.

I can...

...play all my SP compadible games offline...

...on multiple PC's...

...the games are usually MUCH cheaper during summer/winter sales...

...yeah, you're an idiot.

Xbox One is an abomination and should never ever have been remotely considered. Face it, Microsoft is trash.

On Steam:

1) SALESSSS!!!

On Xbone:

1) Connect at least once every 24, which sucks.

2) Used games will still exist, but the market will be more controlled.

3) Sharing will be available (up to 10 family members).

4) Loaning the games or giving away to friends will be avalible (not on launch).

kingfire11

Yeah... I think we're done here.

[QUOTE="senses_fail_06"]

 

Not legally binding? Why does that matter. You still aren't allowed to do it according to STEAM.

AdrianWerner

What's more, I'm also allowed to copy DRM free game and lend it to my friend without using Steam at all.

Yeah, I agree. At the very least, when I buy a box for $50, I want it to retain some value after I type in the code that's inside.

According to the ms release, it sounds like you can actually share games (under the TOU) with your "family" so you'll probably have even more freedom if you want to cheat the system. senses_fail_06

With "family" on the machine the game was registered/installed on. You can't add people over XBL as family and share games that way. So no, no freedom there.

And he's not working the system. What Steam says you can't legally do has no bearing for him no matter how you try to spin it.

On Steam:

1) You have to be connected to the internet to activate any new games, even the ones you bought from retail.And then you don't have to connect again to play the game...

2) Constantly gets greeted by annoying pop-up when you launch the client. "Hey here's some cool new games and offers to check out!" > Dumb adverts for Netflix.

3) NO USED GAMES AT ALL! You can't legally sell your games under their EULA. And you can also buy them for 2/3'rds of the price on GreenManGaming. And that's without all the Steam sales/offers too.

4) No game sharing beside giving your account to somebody else. PC has always been like this though, Xbox One is taking away one of the consoles biggest advantages over PC, how's that a good thing?

5) Offline mode is really spotty and can get very buggy at some times. Never had a problem when I've had to use it.

6) You can't get unbanned from VAC if your account was hacked and the hacker used cheats on VAC servers. You have to re-buy all these games. Better make sure you don't get hacked like a giant idiot then! Also getting banned doesn't mean your games magically stop working it just means you can't play online in certain games.

7) System was forced on the consumers on 2004 specially with the release of HL2. Many copies of that game required Steam to function when Steam was really buggy and crappy. This is the definition of anti-consumer right there. And it's now 2013 and the advantages of the Steam platform are clear and outweigh the disadvantages. Will we be saying the same thing about the Xbox One in a few years time? I doubt it.

kingfire11

Not the greatest arguments really. The problem I have with the Xbox One is that it's removing the whole point of consoles, which is the simplicity they used to have, put a disk in, play a game, and you could take it out, go round a friends house, play it, bring it home, get bored of it, sell it, do whatever. Now you have this big checklist to go down and the worst part is you won't see a single advantage from all of this, no cheaper games, nothing.

On Steam:

1) You have to be connected to the internet to activate any new games, even the ones you bought from retail. (true but you can play completely offline for much much longer with Steam)

2) Constantly gets greeted by annoying pop-up when you launch the client. (not constantly, usually only after closing a game)

3) NO USED GAMES AT ALL! You can't legally sell your games under their EULA. (who honestly cares, used games havn't existed in the PC space for a long time)

4) No game sharing beside giving your account to somebody else.

5) Offline mode is really spotty and can get very buggy at some times. (i havn't experienced it and i've been using Steam since 2004)

6) You can't get unbanned from VAC if your account was hacked and the hacker used cheats on VAC servers. You have to re-buy all these games. (very few games use VAC and you shouldn't let your account get compromised)

7) System was forced on the consumers on 2004 specially with the release of HL2. Many copies of that game required Steam to function when Steam was really buggy and crappy. This is the definition of anti-consumer right there. (no, thats the definition of moving forward, it was buggy at first, but that changed)

 

On Xbone:

1) Connect at least once every 24, which sucks.

2) Used games will still exist, but the market will be more controlled.

3) Sharing will be available (up to 10 family members).

4) Loaning the games or giving away to friends will be avalible (not on launch).

So why does Gamespot posters defend the POS that is STEAM in arms? If people are really agains the POS that is DRM and the Xbone then perhaps they need to stick to their principles and fight big Gabe Newell too since his policies are even worse regarding used games. No wonder his ass is getting kicked by EU courts where this crap can't pass there.

I get that people enjoy the savings, but would those people support the xbone if prices were cheaper? Are people really okay with crappy DRM if they are saving a few bucks even if the DRM is anti-consumer? Are gamers simply addicted and can't stop gaming no matter how bad the treatment they get is?

 

 

 

kingfire11

While i don't think X1's DRM is as bad as some people make out to call Steam a worse or more intrusive system is just silly.

Not only is TC wrong, but 2 wrongs (a stretch to begin with) don't make a right.

[QUOTE="kingfire11"][QUOTE="campzor"]why would you want to game share when you get can like a x4 bundle for the price of 1 xboned game and then give 3 codes to friends.PonchoTaco

Via laptop PCs, PCs can be mobile. There are good ultrabooks with good gaming GPUs.

My mini-ITX gaming PC is for LAN parties. My laptop has a built-in 3G network card. I could use my Sammy G3 as my WiFi hotspot.

Steam barely has DRM

On Steam:

1) You have to be connected to the internet to activate any new games, even the ones you bought from retail.

So? Who in 2013 doesn't have internet anymore?

2) Constantly gets greeted by annoying pop-up when you launch the client.

Only because you're not smart enough to turn them off in the options. :roll:

3) NO USED GAMES AT ALL! You can't legally sell your games under their EULA.

That might suck for some people but I only buy games that cost less than 20 bucks, so I don't really care, valid point though.

4) No game sharing beside giving your account to somebody else.

True, that does suck but games on Steam are so cheap that it doesn't really matter.

5) Offline mode is really spotty and can get very buggy at some times.

I've enver had a problem with offline mode so no clue what you're talking about. Must be your upper lip.

6) You can't get unbanned from VAC if your account was hacked and the hacker used cheats on VAC servers. You have to re-buy all these games.

If you get hacked then that's your own fault, in 99/100 cases it's your own stupidity that get's you hacked. Don't use hacks, don't pirate games, don't go to shady porn sites, use an Anti Virus program = no VAC ban.

7) System was forced on the consumers on 2004 specially with the release of HL2. Many copies of that game required Steam to function when Steam was really buggy and crappy. This is the definition of anti-consumer right there.

And the Xbone is doing the same now in 2013, your point being?

kingfire11

My answers are in bold.

[QUOTE="kingfire11"]

 

By "lend account" you mean giving your password to somebody so that person uses it for some time then I can only lol at this.

AdrianWerner

You can lend account?  Meaning give your username and password yo someone other than you?  

TC if I were you, I'll only go to gog.com since all PC games their are DRM-free. The only set back is that it will take a long time to have current games to be on it. Although the Witcher 3 will be DRM-free day 1 of its launch.

Cant lend your steam account 

http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2965713

If you are saying that you give your password and username to someone, well you can do the same with x1

X1 system is better than steams

Steam is only an option for pc, lets see used games don't matter as I can get games for £5 or less that are just a few months old,  can paly games offline whenether I want, can play everysingle one of my games to a friends house and paly them, guess what I can play it more than an hour, steam is a good form of DRM unlike anti consumer xbox one that spys on you, and have to conect to the internet at least once a day to play your games.

On Steam:

1) You have to be connected to the internet to activate any new games, even the ones you bought from retail. You have to be connected only once before you can use them, a moot point since you have to be online to download them.

2) Constantly gets greeted by annoying pop-up when you launch the client. Hardly an issue when theres a simple close button

3) NO USED GAMES AT ALL! You can't legally sell your games under their EULA. When I can buy new copies for £5, why would I want to buy used?

4) No game sharing beside giving your account to somebody else. That is against the ToU for both XBL and PSN too.

5) Offline mode is really spotty and can get very buggy at some times. Yes, it can be but its gotten better over the years

6) You can't get unbanned from VAC if your account was hacked and the hacker used cheats on VAC servers. You have to re-buy all these games. Nature of the beast, MS doesn't unban your XBL account if it was used on a hacked console...

7) System was forced on the consumers on 2004 specially with the release of HL2. Many copies of that game required Steam to function when Steam was really buggy and crappy. This is the definition of anti-consumer right there. Right now, Steam is the best we have at combating piracy on the PC, Steam has given developers a means to get their games out there to consumers without having to run the gaunlet with aggressive DRM and hit and miss retail sales. Yes Steam had a rough begining but so has many online services.

 

On Xbone:

1) Connect at least once every 24, which sucks. AO-DRM right there

2) Used games will still exist, but the market will be more controlled. That control can and will be restricted

3) Sharing will be available (up to 10 family members). For a console, I should be able to lend my games to who I dam please!

4) Loaning the games or giving away to friends will be avalible (not on launch). That is anti-consumism right there.

So why does Gamespot posters defend the POS that is STEAM in arms? If people are really agains the POS that is DRM and the Xbone then perhaps they need to stick to their principles and fight big Gabe Newell too since his policies are even worse regarding used games. No wonder his ass is getting kicked by EU courts where this crap can't pass there.

I get that people enjoy the savings, but would those people support the xbone if prices were cheaper? Are people really okay with crappy DRM if they are saving a few bucks even if the DRM is anti-consumer? Are gamers simply addicted and can't stop gaming no matter how bad the treatment they get is?

 

 

 

kingfire11

You can't compare the Steam model vs the Xbone. It just doesn't work in the same fashion.

PC gaming does have major issues, and it would be bad enough of XBone just pasted and copied the pc system. But, MS is going like 2 steps further than pc with their system.

My major gripe with gaming on my pc(other than a lot of console games not coming to the platform or coming late, or bad console ports) is that you can't lend or resell or borrow. I basically only buy big pc exclusives day 1 because of that, other games I'll wait for the sale. MS was looking to totally squash that practice until all this backlash, now we don't know what the hell they are doing because they lie or change their story every 5 min.

Pretty much the only argument people seem to have for why they adore Steam but shit on Xbox One is "teh deals." And that's a very flimsy argument. ShoulderOfOrion

You can play Steam games offline.

So, what is your point?

All in all TC, I think I get the overall angle of your post. Why does Steam get a 'free lunch'? And by Steam what I really mean is this one way street with money, game activations, tieing to accounts - whatever you want to call it. 

Well, something I've noticed recently is that the games on PC are cheaper. About 3 weeks ago I bought two copies of borderlands 2 pc from amazon, a total of $30NZD. The other day the a retailer offered me a single 360 copy for $60nzd - 4 times poorer value. (I double checked and this was the country's lowest price)

Also, as you mention with the introduction of Half-Life 2 - Steam's been around long enough for the DRM novelty to have worn off a bit. Users of it are used to it now - yeah, on the PC it is a one way street with money. But as you can see above there is also money to be 'saved'. 

This doesn't excuse Steam. I'm well aware of the shortcomings of such a system. But it's 2013 now and the price of the PC games requiring activation has come right down, possibly in response to increased revenues from this one way street. Will the games on MS' online store be competitively priced? Who knows. But considering the Games for Windows Live store, and the incredibly high price of gears of war seemingly persisting forever - I doubt it. 

Pretty much the only argument people seem to have for why they adore Steam but shit on Xbox One is "teh deals." And that's a very flimsy argument. ShoulderOfOrion

No, there are in fact a lot of diffences between Steam and Xbox One. What an oversimplification.

Both are total ass and I wouldn't defend either, but I have over 100 games on Steam so I'm a major hypocrite.APiranhaAteMyVa

Eh, I never got the problem with Steam, you buy the game, you get the game, you can mod the game, delete the game, install it as many times as you want and play it offline if you need to.

The only thing Steam really restricts is the resale of games and you know what, I'm cool with that. You've bought a bunch of files, why should you be allowed to sell those back, WHO would you even be selling them back to, the whole idea of a "used" digital copy is laughable at best, it just makes no sense. Steam is DRM at it's plainest and simplest, you go online, you open Steam, you play your games.

And you get a bunch of free advantages alongside it (sales, automatic updates, a well done friends/community system, etc), that's what Microsoft ISN'T offering, they're doing all this but how do I as a customer benefit? As far as we know, we don't. We still have to pay for Live, games will still cost the same amount and now there's all these extra layers of unnecessary complication on top.

PC gaming market and home console market are vastly different. You can't directly compare them. 

No... b/c when I build a new PC... then I can put Steam on it... and have all my games.... the ability to play the games I've purchased won't disappear in 5-8 years.

Any game you buy for the XB1 will be WORTHLESS when MS releases a new machine.

On Steam:

1) You have to be connected to the internet to activate any new games, even the ones you bought from retail.

2) Constantly gets greeted by annoying pop-up when you launch the client.

3) NO USED GAMES AT ALL! You can't legally sell your games under their EULA.

4) No game sharing beside giving your account to somebody else.

5) Offline mode is really spotty and can get very buggy at some times.

6) You can't get unbanned from VAC if your account was hacked and the hacker used cheats on VAC servers. You have to re-buy all these games.

7) System was forced on the consumers on 2004 specially with the release of HL2. Many copies of that game required Steam to function when Steam was really buggy and crappy. This is the definition of anti-consumer right there.

 

On Xbone:

1) Connect at least once every 24, which sucks.

2) Used games will still exist, but the market will be more controlled.

3) Sharing will be available (up to 10 family members).

4) Loaning the games or giving away to friends will be avalible (not on launch).

So why does Gamespot posters defend the POS that is STEAM in arms? If people are really agains the POS that is DRM and the Xbone then perhaps they need to stick to their principles and fight big Gabe Newell too since his policies are even worse regarding used games. No wonder his ass is getting kicked by EU courts where this crap can't pass there.

I get that people enjoy the savings, but would those people support the xbone if prices were cheaper? Are people really okay with crappy DRM if they are saving a few bucks even if the DRM is anti-consumer? Are gamers simply addicted and can't stop gaming no matter how bad the treatment they get is?

 

 

 

kingfire11

No. People still buy and support games that are Steam-exclusive. You remember the whole "no steam=no sale" thingy?kingfire11

Which pretty much bones your whole argument. Steam is such a good platform that people are willing to not buy games if they aren't released on it, as opposed to Xbone which does nothing better than its predecessor X360 and only adds inconveniences.

You mad?

[QUOTE="kingfire11"] No. People still buy and support games that are Steam-exclusive. You remember the whole "no steam=no sale" thingy?N30F3N1X

Which pretty much bones your whole argument. Steam is such a good platform that people are willing to not buy games if they aren't released on it, as opposed to Xbone which does nothing better than its predecessor X360 and only adds inconveniences.

You mad?