Shouldn't TLOU run like crap on PS4?

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#1 Edited by leandrro (787 posts) -

according to Sony PS4 is about 10 faster than the PS3: http://www.examiner.com/article/ps4-architect-playstation-4-specs-10-times-better-than-ps3 and 43 times faster than the PS2: http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/178181-sony-claims-ps4-is-43-times-more-powerful-than-the-ps2-an-unnecessary-lie-that-perpetuates-the-megahertz-myth

we can all agree that its probably some PR numbers, but real tech specs shows PS4 around 6x faster than PS3, it has about 6x more gigaflops, 6x transistor count, a HD7850 is about 6x faster than a 7800gs, in real life scenarios, while running a PC game with PS3 settings you get about 6x more fps than running the same game with PS4 settings

Naught Dog and Sony claim that TLOU has been fully optimized taking advantage of 7 years of optimization, but lets separate 2 types of optimization

1- software optimization is when developers make a game look better with the same amount of hardware resources, like when people learned they could compress textures,or when they use a 10kb texture of a brick to make a brick wall of 200 bricks, replacing a brick wall that had originally a texture of 2mb, just putting 200 identical bricks, or when 3d graphics engines started to only render the textures polygons.., that are in front of the camera, whithout rendering the graphics that are on the back of the camera,saving hardware resources

this optimization is real, developers do it all the time, and thats why in a console generation, a later game looks much better than a game released in the beggining of that generation

but console manufacturers want to make us believe in another type of optimization,

2- console optimization, or fixed hardware optimization or coding to the metal...

this claims that working with the same old hardware developers can extract more of it by "coding to the metal" or "improving efficiency" and this optimization, unlike the software tricks, cannot be ported to another hardware

this is a good way of selling dated hardware and some sony fanboys already believe that PS4 will in a few years time run games like a Titan Z graphics card, those optimization claims try to make us believe a PS3 is currently running games as good as a PC with 4, 6, 8 ,10 more power than the PS3

but TLOU is going to be ported to the PS4 and only 6 months since PS4's launch ND says it will run in 1080p (2,5 times more pixels), 60fps (2x more fps) and anso "higher resolution character models, improved shadows and lighting, in addition to several other gameplay improvements.", to make this kind of improovement (720p>1080p 30fps>60fps +textures,shadows,lightning) you need about 6x more processing power, PS3 and PS4 have completely different archtectures, if real, all hardware optimization would surely be lost when porting it to PS4

if PS3 is running 4,6,8,10 more efficiently than in the beggining, how the PS4 version is going to have improvements that require also 6x more hardware power?

2 possible answers:

1- Naught Dog had in 6 months of console life cycle just made the same hardware optimization it did in 7 years working on PS3

2- unlike the very real software optimization, hardware optimization is not real and if TLOU were ported to a PC with a HD7850 it would run 6x faster/better, in this case simply porting TLOU to a PC with a PS3 graphics card 7800gs it would also run just like it does on the PS3

IMO the same company and developer that spent so many years trying to make us believe in "coding to the metal" has ironically proven that its not real

#2 Edited by Blabadon (25599 posts) -

You type so much and get so little across of relevance

#3 Posted by ConanTheStoner (4501 posts) -
@Blabadon said:

You type so much and get so little across of relevance

If it weren't for the negative spin towards Sony I would have mistaken it for a Brofists post.

#4 Edited by lostrib (32942 posts) -

Nobody got time for that shit

#5 Edited by TheTruthIsREAL (756 posts) -

I was going to read but I didn't.

#6 Posted by Blabadon (25599 posts) -
#7 Edited by leandrro (787 posts) -

@Blabadon said:

You type so much and get so little across of relevance

do you have a PS4 or a X1? if yes you probably going to be fulled by this optmization BS in the coming years unless you start checking this relevance

#8 Posted by leandrro (787 posts) -

@lostrib said:

Nobody got time for that shit

youre so polite

#9 Posted by ConanTheStoner (4501 posts) -

@leandrro said:

@Blabadon said:

You type so much and get so little across of relevance

do you have a PS4 or a X1? if yes you probably going to be fulled by this optmization BS in the coming years unless you start checking this relevance

Is he going to be fooled, or fueled? Hoping for the latter, that would be pretty cool.... I think.

#10 Posted by I_can_haz (6551 posts) -

Holy wall of text Batman!

#11 Edited by leandrro (787 posts) -

Holy wall of text Batman!

your honor, this long explanation is essencial for our case

#12 Posted by ConanTheStoner (4501 posts) -

I may not care for your topic, but you would make a fine English instructor.

#13 Edited by TheTruthIsREAL (756 posts) -

@leandrro said:

@I_can_haz said:

Holy wall of text Batman!

your honor, this long explanation is essencial for our case

learn how to spell first before you create threads

#14 Edited by MirkoS77 (6970 posts) -

I refuse to read that. That's even worse than a huge wall of text.

#15 Posted by cainetao11 (16435 posts) -

I read it TC. Interesting.

#16 Posted by leandrro (787 posts) -

@leandrro said:

@I_can_haz said:

Holy wall of text Batman!

your honor, this long explanation is essencial for our case

learn how to spell first before you create threads

portuguese spelling mine very so good

#17 Posted by General_Solo76 (109 posts) -

No! Next question?

#18 Edited by leandrro (787 posts) -

@MirkoS77 said:

I refuse to read that. That's even worse than a huge wall of text.

its a tiny text with a lot of spaces

#19 Posted by leandrro (787 posts) -

No! Next question?

thanks for the feedback, very detailed and technical

#20 Edited by aia89 (2257 posts) -

Ok, all you need to know is that the game will run faster and probably better on PS4, optimization or not.

#21 Posted by aia89 (2257 posts) -

Ok, all you need to know is that the game will run faster and probably better on PS4, optimization or not.

#22 Posted by santoron (7620 posts) -

Must be magic.

#23 Posted by speedfreak48t5p (6512 posts) -

@lostrib said:

Nobody got time for that shit

#24 Posted by AdobeArtist (22786 posts) -

So you acknowledge PS4 being vastly more powerful than PS3, and somehow expect a last gen game (albeit upgraded) to run like crap on it??

Yeah... sounds legit :/

#25 Posted by leandrro (787 posts) -

So you acknowledge PS4 being vastly more powerful than PS3, and somehow expect a last gen game (albeit upgraded) to run like crap on it??

Yeah... sounds legit :/

but the optimization make PS3 run games just like a vastly superior hardware right? PS4 should run TLOU in 720p 30fps with close to zero improvements

#26 Edited by blangenakker (2154 posts) -

*facepalm* It's newer hardware! Of course its going to make the game perform better and look sharper.

#27 Edited by handssss (1766 posts) -
#28 Posted by ConanTheStoner (4501 posts) -

I get your trolling angle here (and congrats on putting a little effort into it), but it's really not going to fly.

#29 Posted by seanmcloughlin (38194 posts) -

@leandrro said:

@AdobeArtist said:

So you acknowledge PS4 being vastly more powerful than PS3, and somehow expect a last gen game (albeit upgraded) to run like crap on it??

Yeah... sounds legit :/

but the optimization make PS3 run games just like a vastly superior hardware right? PS4 should run TLOU in 720p 30fps with close to zero improvements

You're dealing with Naughty Dog. They know what they're doing

#30 Edited by MirkoS77 (6970 posts) -

@leandrro said:

@MirkoS77 said:

I refuse to read that. That's even worse than a huge wall of text.

its a tiny text with a lot of spaces

Well, since you edited it, ok, you got me. Reading.

#31 Edited by ReadingRainbow4 (13023 posts) -

It's like everytime you try and make a point, you take a large detour and end up circling a mountain.

Then somewhere on your 3rd attempt you just crash into a ditch and burn up as the skin on your hands just melts to the steering wheel while your eyeballs and teeth pop.

And then everyone laughs, including the paramedics.

#32 Edited by Jynxzor (9286 posts) -

@leandrro:

You could just use some base logic and realize that you don't need a machine with ultra guts to go from the PS3 version to the uprezzed PS4 version.

It's a very real possabillity that the PS3 version was able to run at higher resolution but with a sub-par frame rate and so they locked it at a lower resolution for stabillity.

#33 Posted by TheTruthIsREAL (756 posts) -

@leandrro said:

but the optimization make PS3 run games just like a vastly superior hardware right? PS4 should run TLOU in 720p 30fps with close to zero improvements

You make no sense! What game have you developed?

#34 Posted by AmazonAngry (924 posts) -

Tldr.

Tc posts like crap.

#35 Edited by UnbiasedPoster (672 posts) -

They aren't called Naughty Gods for nothin.

#36 Posted by ConanTheStoner (4501 posts) -

Tldr.

Tc posts like crap.

You should have seen it before he fixed it.

#37 Posted by GamersJustGame (183 posts) -

Nope. It should run just fine.

#38 Edited by edwardecl (1946 posts) -

It's a little bit more complicated than that... 6 - 8x more raw power, then there are the additional CPU/GPU features. Then you have 8x more usable ram so you don't have to waste resources loading and unloading stuff as often so less memory bandwidth is used, then there's the fact that the memory bandwidth is 5 - 6x faster with no messing about with load balancing 2 separate memory caches and hand optimising the load order.

You don't have to even do the optimisations to get 6x the speed that's the point.

#39 Posted by Krelian-co (10204 posts) -
#40 Posted by leandrro (787 posts) -

@Jynxzor said:

@leandrro:

You could just use some base logic and realize that you don't need a machine with ultra guts to go from the PS3 version to the uprezzed PS4 version.

It's a very real possabillity that the PS3 version was able to run at higher resolution but with a sub-par frame rate and so they locked it at a lower resolution for stabillity.

yes, but the same applys for 60fps

it they aim for 60fps it means the ps4 can handle 70, 80 or 120 fps when looking at the sky, but it falls to 55 60 sometimes and they lock it to 60

in any case you need 2x more power just for frame rate

about 2x more for also for 2,5 more pixels 720px1080p

its already 4x more hardware power, optimization looks very unrealistic when you see that simply porting the game o x86 archtecture makes it perform according to the hardware power of the machine with x86 archtecture, we see no losses due to the lack of 7 years of "hardware optimization" or "coding to the metal"

#41 Posted by GTSaiyanjin2 (5745 posts) -

I read all of it, but the TC didnt make any good points. I was wondering this myself though, how did ND port the last of us so fast on the PS4, considering it was a game made specifically for the PS3. I know Tomb Raider was made in very little time, but that was likely a port of the PC version.

#42 Edited by Pray_to_me (2782 posts) -

“I wish we had a button that was like ‘Turn On PS4 Mode’, but no,” creative director Neil Druckmann says. “We expected it to be Hell, and it was Hell. Just getting an image onscreen, even an inferior one with the shadows broken, lighting broken and with it crashing every 30 seconds… that took a long time. These engineers are some of the best in the industry and they optimised the game so much for the PS3’s SPUs specifically. It was optimised on a binary level, but after shifting those things over [to PS4] you have to go back to the high level, make sure the [game] systems are intact, and optimise it again.

“I can’t describe how difficult a task that is. And once it’s running well, you’re running the [versions] side by side to make sure you didn’t screw something up in the process, like physics being slightly off, which throws the game off, or lighting being shifted and all of a sudden it’s a drastically different look. That’s not ‘improved’ any more; that’s different. We want to stay faithful while being better.”

Naughty Dog had only a handful of advantages when development began, shortly after completion of the game’s Left Behind DLC. An audio commentary for the cutscenes had already been recorded, but was never used, and many models and textures already existed at a higher quality than could be put onscreen by a PS3. Character models built for cutscenes use more triangles than those in-game, and multiple versions of objects were built with higher-quality models swapped in and out depending on its prominence in the frame. On PS4, those models could be used everywhere.

TC is a fucking bum

#43 Edited by kinectthedots (1566 posts) -

Wow what a stupid topic and moronic conclusions by the TC.

To put in perspective how stupid the TC's conclusions are lets look at a current gen console (xboxone) that is also significantly more powerful than PS3...and the PS4 has games that run at near the same performance advantage in resolution or frames for games built for the *current* generation.

Now what kind of a dubmass would you have to be to make the argument that the PS4 shouldn't be able to run a last generation PS3 game at double the performance when it is piratically achieving 50 -100% advantage over a much more powerful current gen system with current generation games? optimized or not?

Without even getting technical, if you think about this simple factor, it becomes obvious how incredibly dumb this topic is.

It seems lem-tendency fanboys are getting nervous and starting pre-bashing/damage control over ND and TLOU remastered edition is coming to PS4 next month because they must fear it's impact.

I don't blaim them since when you look on the PS4 page for upcoming games and come to TLOU PS4 you see...

http://www.gamespot.com/ps4/games/?page=4&tab=1

Possible fuck up? Maybe but when you check the PS3 section of games, it still shows the original!?

http://www.gamespot.com/new-games/?sort=date&___game_filter_type%5Bgenres%5D=&game_filter_type%5Bplatform%5D=113&game_filter_type%5BminRating%5D=8&game_filter_type%5Btheme%5D=&game_filter_type%5Bregion%5D=&game_filter_type%5BfromYear%5D=&game_filter_type%5BtoYear%5D=&___game_filter_type%5Bdevelopers%5D=&___game_filter_type%5Bpublishers%5D=&game_filter_type%5Bletter%5D=

Hahaha Oh don't worry lems, it was probably just a typo but keep the pre butthurt and damage control coming closet lems.

#44 Edited by leandrro (787 posts) -

“I wish we had a button that was like ‘Turn On PS4 Mode’, but no,” creative director Neil Druckmann says. “We expected it to be Hell, and it was Hell. Just getting an image onscreen, even an inferior one with the shadows broken, lighting broken and with it crashing every 30 seconds… that took a long time. These engineers are some of the best in the industry and they optimised the game so much for the PS3’s SPUs specifically. It was optimised on a binary level, but after shifting those things over [to PS4] you have to go back to the high level, make sure the [game] systems are intact, and optimise it again.

“I can’t describe how difficult a task that is. And once it’s running well, you’re running the [versions] side by side to make sure you didn’t screw something up in the process, like physics being slightly off, which throws the game off, or lighting being shifted and all of a sudden it’s a drastically different look. That’s not ‘improved’ any more; that’s different. We want to stay faithful while being better.”

Naughty Dog had only a handful of advantages when development began, shortly after completion of the game’s Left Behind DLC. An audio commentary for the cutscenes had already been recorded, but was never used, and many models and textures already existed at a higher quality than could be put onscreen by a PS3. Character models built for cutscenes use more triangles than those in-game, and multiple versions of objects were built with higher-quality models swapped in and out depending on its prominence in the frame. On PS4, those models could be used everywhere.

TC is a fucking bum

so they clearly admit that all that magical PS3 7 years of optimization has been lost and they did it again in a matter of weeks, or months

you see, the are just showing fanboys all the optimization crap is nothing but the normal dev cycle of any game on any hardware by any dev, magic is gone, they just proved that porting "super optimized" PS3 games to PC takes no more time than the usual few weeks or months it takes for any game without magic

#45 Posted by UNcartMe (554 posts) -

I don't think anyone here on system wars is smart enough to calculate what it takes to go from 30fps and 720p on ps3 to 60fps 1080p on ps4. There are so many different variables that must be taken into account. All the "Omg 2x resolution requires a 2x stronger gpu cpu etc." Even if you know the fundamentals to graphics processing or programming, it in no way makes you a professional in developing graphic engines. So let's all do everyone a favor and STFU. :)

#46 Posted by leandrro (787 posts) -

@UNcartMe said:

I don't think anyone here on system wars is smart enough to calculate what it takes to go from 30fps and 720p on ps3 to 60fps 1080p on ps4. There are so many different variables that must be taken into account. All the "Omg 2x resolution requires a 2x stronger gpu cpu etc." Even if you know the fundamentals to graphics processing or programming, it in no way makes you a professional in developing graphic engines. So let's all do everyone a favor and STFU. :)

i think any stupid PC gamer knows exactly what it takes and even the dumbest console gamer can check it in hundreds of benchmarks of hundreds of PC games

2x more frames = exactly 2x more hardware

720p to 1080 varies but stays around 50 to 100% more hardware required

its 2x multiplied by 1,5 or 2 = 4 multiplaied some more to improve lights textures shadows etc

TLOU PS3 to PS4 is clearly around 6x hardware jump, and it took to "optimize" was a few weeks ,

the mythcal "coding to the metal" has been destroyed by naught dog itself

#47 Edited by UNcartMe (554 posts) -

@leandrro: Just in case you were wondering, my post was deliberately intended to be read by you. STFU

#48 Posted by darkspineslayer (19438 posts) -

Man, taking that much space to not say much at all. That's impressive, almost koijima level really.

#49 Edited by kinectthedots (1566 posts) -

@leandrro said:

@UNcartMe said:

I don't think anyone here on system wars is smart enough to calculate what it takes to go from 30fps and 720p on ps3 to 60fps 1080p on ps4. There are so many different variables that must be taken into account. All the "Omg 2x resolution requires a 2x stronger gpu cpu etc." Even if you know the fundamentals to graphics processing or programming, it in no way makes you a professional in developing graphic engines. So let's all do everyone a favor and STFU. :)

i think any stupid PC gamer knows exactly what it takes and even the dumbest console gamer can check it in hundreds of benchmarks of hundreds of PC games

2x more frames = exactly 2x more hardware

720p to 1080 varies but stays around 50 to 100% more hardware required

its 2x multiplied by 1,5 or 2 = 4 multiplaied some more to improve lights textures shadows etc

TLOU PS3 to PS4 is clearly around 6x hardware jump, and it took to "optimize" was a few weeks ,

the mythcal "coding to the metal" has been destroyed by naught dog itself

TLOU remastered running at 1080p/60fps on PS4

UC4 clip running at 1080p/60fps on PS4

lol Trying to assuming you know anything about what developers can achieve when coding to the metal on PS4.

#50 Posted by lostrib (32942 posts) -

@leandrro said:

@UNcartMe said:

I don't think anyone here on system wars is smart enough to calculate what it takes to go from 30fps and 720p on ps3 to 60fps 1080p on ps4. There are so many different variables that must be taken into account. All the "Omg 2x resolution requires a 2x stronger gpu cpu etc." Even if you know the fundamentals to graphics processing or programming, it in no way makes you a professional in developing graphic engines. So let's all do everyone a favor and STFU. :)

i think any stupid PC gamer knows exactly what it takes and even the dumbest console gamer can check it in hundreds of benchmarks of hundreds of PC games

2x more frames = exactly 2x more hardware

720p to 1080 varies but stays around 50 to 100% more hardware required

its 2x multiplied by 1,5 or 2 = 4 multiplaied some more to improve lights textures shadows etc

TLOU PS3 to PS4 is clearly around 6x hardware jump, and it took to "optimize" was a few weeks ,

the mythcal "coding to the metal" has been destroyed by naught dog itself

lol Trying to assuming you know anything about what a developers can achieve when coding to the metal on PS4.

Isn't that what console fanboys do all the time