RPS: 'Just who is Steam Machine for?' Valve: 'Um...'

This topic is locked from further discussion.

#1 Edited by charizard1605 (57667 posts) -

Rock Paper Shotgun, one of the premier PC gaming websites, posed the above question to Valve.

Yes, that’s right: You. That is who this article is for. Absolutely, positively nobody else. And by that, I of course mean Yousef Johnson, the world’s most average PC gaming enthusiast. He spends much of his leisure time playing on his own custom-built PC, largely by way of Steam. According to Valve, You (and perhaps by extension, also you) are who the initial line of Steam Machines is aimed at. And yet, so far it’s difficult to find many reasons to care. There’s the living room appeal, sure, but what’s to stop You from simply installing SteamOS on his own machine, buying a Steam controller, and doing a bit of quick (not to mention free) legwork? I asked Valve to justify its massive yet arguably over-cautious endeavor both now and in the long run. Here’s how the PC juggernaut replied.

“We have 65 million users with value in Steam accounts, and they want those games – their libraries – in the living room,” claimed SteamOS and Steam Machine designer Kassidy Gerber. “I think part of the value proposition is that we’ll be able to support all those excellent titles in the living room. I think we’ve proven we’re committed to holding onto your library for you.”

“A lot of these titles, traditional PC gaming titles, they actually move really well into the living room if you have the right controls. Like Civilization V is actually a really fun experience. So if you open this stuff up, you get a good cross between console and PC.”

That is a complete non answer if I ever saw one. It really sounds like Valve itself is not sure who these myriad of machines, none of them cheap, incidentally, are aimed at. Why would anyone buy them? Why would a hardcore gamer not just use HDMI and Steam Big Picture Mode (or heck, just install Steam OS on their existing PC), if they were so desperate for the Steam Big Screen Experience? Why would the more casual PC gamer purchase such a limited machine, one that would lock him out of some of the most popular PC games (League of Legends, Starcraft, Diablo, Battlefield, The Sims), instead of just picking up another pre-made PC on the market?

The entire thing sounds like a mess to me.

SOURCE

#2 Posted by foxhound_fox (88319 posts) -

It's for people who like the idea of a plug-n-play PC.

i.e. Xbone or PS4.

#3 Posted by charizard1605 (57667 posts) -

@foxhound_fox said:

It's for people who like the idea of a plug-n-play PC.

i.e. Xbone or PS4.

A plug and play PC with mostly none of the games that PC has?

Okay then.

#4 Posted by foxhound_fox (88319 posts) -

@charizard1605 said:

@foxhound_fox said:

It's for people who like the idea of a plug-n-play PC.

i.e. Xbone or PS4.

A plug and play PC with mostly none of the games that PC has?

Okay then.

"i.e. Xbone or PS4."

#5 Posted by charizard1605 (57667 posts) -

@foxhound_fox said:

@charizard1605 said:

@foxhound_fox said:

It's for people who like the idea of a plug-n-play PC.

i.e. Xbone or PS4.

A plug and play PC with mostly none of the games that PC has?

Okay then.

"i.e. Xbone or PS4."

But Xbone and PS4 do not have other (sometimes) cheaper alternatives with a magnitude of games more (such as buying a premade PC, and switching it into your TV); nor do Xbone and PS4 run some obscure variant of an OS that probably will not get support for most of the bigger games coming this year (here's a fun question: Destiny, TitanFall, Dark Souls II, The Witcher 3, Dragon Age Inquisition, Alien Isolation- which of these games will run on Steam OS? Now which of these will run on Xbone/PS4?)

There's flat out no market for the Steam Machine. Valve is trying to cater to a demographic that does not exist.

I was willing to give them the benefit of the doubt until CES where I hoped they would clear it up more, but they seemed as clueless and unfocused at CES as always.

#6 Edited by Joedgabe (5111 posts) -

they're just trying something seeing if it works or not. I can actually see this working in a way and i can see it fail. It's similar to a PC while at the same time not exactly. I think that experience in the living room would make it feel a bit "different". For example my PC set up is too big to be in the living room literally would be like an extra couch to have it in there. I can also see it failing because it runs on linux so if the right cards are played maybe something good can happen. Honestly i think Microsoft monopoly on the OS market would be the potential draw back on the steam machine. Maybe this would push boundaries on that somehow in the future. Or M$ can chip in and create a windows OS for steam at a cheaper price only limited to playing games on it.

#7 Posted by CrownKingArthur (4781 posts) -

it is not 'for' anyone. it is a product which exists for a reason. and that reason is to get further away from windows.

i think valve would actually be really happy if no steam machines were sold at all, but 5 million people installed steamos on a second pc and used it at least on a weekly basis.

at the moment i think ubuntu + steam is a better OS than steamos, but ubuntu+steam can't do the streaming thing.

#8 Edited by Telekill (4602 posts) -

I was interested in the idea of Steam Machine until the prices and variations were announced. I mean, $500 is one thing (and coincidentally my max for a gaming system), but the prices skyrocket to $6000. Who the hell would be willing to spend $6000 on a gaming system?!

The pricing counts as two strikes for me and where the last strike comes in is the controller. What were they thinking?

#9 Edited by Boddicker (2732 posts) -

@Telekill said:

I was interested in the idea of Steam Machine until the prices and variations were announced. I mean, $500 is one thing (and coincidentally my max for a gaming system), but the prices skyrocket to $6000. Who the hell would be willing to spend $6000 on a gaming system?!

The pricing counts as two strikes for me and where the last strike comes in is the controller. What were they thinking?

It would have had a chance if they kept it at the $500 model that was upgradeable. That alone would have set it apart from consoles and pulled in a few consolites. As for the controller don't knock it till you try it. You may just be surprised.

Back on topic, yes, that was a complete non-answer from Valve. I still don't understand Valve's business stratagem for the Steam Machine. Maybe the entire point of it really is to fail but pull more people away from Windows.

I'm all for that.

#10 Edited by _Matt_ (8911 posts) -

I see no point in the Steam Machine really.

Console gamers are happy with their consoles.

PC gamers will just build their own pc or move their existing one to the living room and attach a pad.

#11 Posted by AmazonTreeBoa (16745 posts) -

I am still trying to figure out what is stopping me from gaming in the living room on my PC. Why do I need the Steam Box in order to play my PC games in the living room?

#12 Posted by Heil68 (44504 posts) -

I can PC game in my living room right now if I wanted. These boxes are not for me.

#13 Posted by PhazonBlazer (11845 posts) -

@_Matt_ said:

I see no point in the Steam Machine really.

Console gamers are happy with their consoles.

PC gamers will just build their own pc or move their existing one to the living room and attach a pad.

Exactly, plus there's always Steam Big Picture mode. Unless Steam Machine gets some exclusives I dunno why console gamers or PC gamers would move to it.

#14 Edited by Sushiglutton (5301 posts) -

Suppose your PC is in a room far from your livingroom. What are the solutions on the market if you want to play some games on your TV with a gamepad?

#15 Edited by Riverwolf007 (23760 posts) -

they are thinking they will snap up the console crowd but even the most naive kid in the world knows better than to buy a pc that does not do everything a pc can do and can't play all the pc titles that are available.

the steambox is like a console you have to buy windows for or something... or maybe it's a pc that does not do everything a pc is supposed to do... or maybe it's... who knows.

if you are right there on one of the sites that sell it like cyberpower why the hell would you not just let a sales rep put a cheap pc together for you?

hell, they could even arrange your build to get free upgrades, games and a cheap copy of windows.

edit:

lol, by the way.

“We have 65 million users with value in Steam accounts, and they want those games – their libraries – in the living room,”

#16 Posted by AmazonTreeBoa (16745 posts) -

@Sushiglutton said:

Suppose your PC is in a room far from your livingroom. What are the solutions on the market if you want to play some games on your TV with a gamepad?

Move your PC to the living room and use a controller. Problem solved and without even wasting money on the Steam Box.

#17 Posted by Ghost120x (3890 posts) -

They are trying to be like the android/ios of gaming and continue to grow the service and just keep carrying it over to new devices. That way the install base never has to start from ground zero like the ps4 and xbox one and they can keep getting bigger. The money and the amount of users will have devs looking their way.

Vale is only using the hardware to extend the user base of steam trying to grab as much new users as they can. The problem is PC is already available and the best platform for steam and they know it. I feel sorry for the hardware manufacturers because they are on a sinking ship and Valve will take the users and leave without them. As long as steam is growing they don't care if the hardware manufactures only sell a few because valve can always find some more to keep their user count growing.

#18 Edited by charizard1605 (57667 posts) -

@Sushiglutton said:

Suppose your PC is in a room far from your livingroom. What are the solutions on the market if you want to play some games on your TV with a gamepad?

Move your PC?

#19 Posted by PhazonBlazer (11845 posts) -

Plus steam just released Big Picture mode with the purpose of using a PC in your living room

#20 Edited by ReadingRainbow4 (14084 posts) -

Valve just wants a slice of console Pie.

It's more of a business decision than something designed for the greater good of gaming. Mini ATX cases have been around for a long time, this is just further streamlining it.

#21 Posted by MBirdy88 (8220 posts) -

@AmazonTreeBoa said:

@Sushiglutton said:

Suppose your PC is in a room far from your livingroom. What are the solutions on the market if you want to play some games on your TV with a gamepad?

Move your PC to the living room and use a controller. Problem solved and without even wasting money on the Steam Box.

sigh.... while im not pro-steam machine (unless it gets the platform even more games.)

but cmon, not everyone wants a damn desk, ugly glowing machine that most enthusiasts make loud with fans and LEDs bright... mine is in my living room.... but its an eye saw.

MAC did get one thing right that we normal PC users dont get.... style. my hulking phatom case, razer perperals and 2 black monitors on a friggin office desk.

#22 Posted by darkspineslayer (19686 posts) -

There is no market. If you want to game on a PC, you can find premade computers for cheap, or do a little research and build your own.

I mean, what kind of behemoth could one build on their own for the price of that $6000 box? You could build a moster rig for half that, if not 1/4.

#23 Posted by Shielder7 (5152 posts) -

it's for lazy hermits.

#24 Posted by ShepardCommandr (2677 posts) -

it's a pointless product.

#25 Edited by naz99 (1355 posts) -

It is for whoever wants to buy it.....I love the "I can't find no use for it which means everybody else won't either" mentality..

I know 2 PS4 users that are waiting on them to be released as they don't want to contend with a tower in their living room...so apparently there are some people that want it...who'd have thought eh

#26 Posted by Articuno76 (18822 posts) -

@charizard1605 said:

@Sushiglutton said:

Suppose your PC is in a room far from your livingroom. What are the solutions on the market if you want to play some games on your TV with a gamepad?

Move your PC?

That isn't an ideal solution...but to be honest I don't think getting around that problem at the cost of several hundred dollars is a solution either.

The only people I can see the Steam machine being for are people who would like to play PC games whilst having a console like experience (and money is no object for them). Problem is I don't think there are all that many of that kind of person around.

#27 Edited by charizard1605 (57667 posts) -

@Articuno76 said:

@charizard1605 said:

@Sushiglutton said:

Suppose your PC is in a room far from your livingroom. What are the solutions on the market if you want to play some games on your TV with a gamepad?

Move your PC?

That isn't an ideal solution...but to be honest I don't think getting around that problem at the cost of several hundred dollars is a solution either.

The only people I can see the Steam machine being for are people who would like to play PC games whilst having a console like experience (and money is no object for them). Problem is I don't think there are all that many of that kind of person around.

Sure, I understand there is a viable market there. But I also think that said people would actually prefer having those games that they want to play- just some of the ones I listed out in the OP are League of Legends, Starcraft, Diablo, Battlefield, The Sims, not to mention other popular games like Skyrim, SimCity, Minecraft- I mean, IF Steam Machines (and SteamOS by extension) supported all these games, then yeah, sure, I'd understand why this product exists.

But they don't, so this is literally an answer to a question no one asked.

#28 Posted by AmazonTreeBoa (16745 posts) -

@MBirdy88 said:

@AmazonTreeBoa said:

@Sushiglutton said:

Suppose your PC is in a room far from your livingroom. What are the solutions on the market if you want to play some games on your TV with a gamepad?

Move your PC to the living room and use a controller. Problem solved and without even wasting money on the Steam Box.

sigh.... while im not pro-steam machine (unless it gets the platform even more games.)

but cmon, not everyone wants a damn desk, ugly glowing machine that most enthusiasts make loud with fans and LEDs bright... mine is in my living room.... but its an eye saw.

MAC did get one thing right that we normal PC users dont get.... style. my hulking phatom case, razer perperals and 2 black monitors on a friggin office desk.

Yes because you HAVE to use a desk. *rolls eyes* and it HAS to be loud. *again rolls eyes* And it MUST have bright LED lights. *rolls eyes yet again*

What is an "eye saw"?

It is totally impossible to have a normal sized tower with no lights and fans that aren't loud. Just as it is impossible to hook the thing to a TV and use no desk and use a controller and wireless k/m. Totally impossible to do all of that with a PC isn't it. *rolls eyes* *really misses the emotes*

#29 Posted by Naylord (679 posts) -

So how about instead of buying a SteamBox you just buy a long HDMI cable and run it to your tv? That's what I do and it works great.

#30 Posted by MBirdy88 (8220 posts) -

@AmazonTreeBoa said:

@MBirdy88 said:

@AmazonTreeBoa said:

@Sushiglutton said:

Suppose your PC is in a room far from your livingroom. What are the solutions on the market if you want to play some games on your TV with a gamepad?

Move your PC to the living room and use a controller. Problem solved and without even wasting money on the Steam Box.

sigh.... while im not pro-steam machine (unless it gets the platform even more games.)

but cmon, not everyone wants a damn desk, ugly glowing machine that most enthusiasts make loud with fans and LEDs bright... mine is in my living room.... but its an eye saw.

MAC did get one thing right that we normal PC users dont get.... style. my hulking phatom case, razer perperals and 2 black monitors on a friggin office desk.

Yes because you HAVE to use a desk. *rolls eyes* and it HAS to be loud. *again rolls eyes* And it MUST have bright LED lights. *rolls eyes yet again*

What is an "eye saw"?

It is totally impossible to have a normal sized tower with no lights and fans that aren't loud. Just as it is impossible to hook the thing to a TV and use no desk and use a controller and wireless k/m. Totally impossible to do all of that with a PC isn't it. *rolls eyes* *really misses the emotes*

....

....

.......

a normal size tower is still huge....

most with good cooling and used for overclocking are at least "loudish". buh buh the watercool response right?

LED lights.. yes that is minor, well done... one small victory i suppose.

eye-sore... don't pretend to be smarter than you are, its called a typo.

so let me get this straight. people who want to hook their PC up to a TV ... without the use of a desk (therefore making keyboard/mouse a no-no even with a lap tray or a faggot plank of wood) and expect to have any kind of decent pc experience worth actually having the large form factor device for.....

...

you might want to check your eyes out, seem to be having a slight case of the spastics.

so whats the point in the normal PC over the Steam machine if you want to render the desktop computer side of it useless again?

#31 Posted by PurpleMan5000 (7280 posts) -

I'm definitely going to get the controller. I'm also really hoping that more companies start making cases that are compact and have a good enough cooling system so that I could just put a gaming pc on the shelf in the living room. Hauling my case back and forth kind of gets old.

#32 Edited by CroidX (1119 posts) -

@ReadingRainbow4:

why would Valve get other vendors into making their own steam machine which could mean more competition

#33 Edited by kalipekona (2299 posts) -

Some current PC gamers will get one simply because it's an easy, straight forward way to have a small compact PC for the living room. This will also attract console gamers who have been interesting in PC gaming but always felt too intimidated to build their own rig.

It doesn't have to "beat" consoles on a units-sold basis. All it has to do is help expand PC gaming and it will be a win for all involved with the platform.

#34 Posted by AdrianWerner (28058 posts) -

It's for console gamers who want to try pcgaming in console way. For pcgamers it's pretty useless.

#35 Posted by NoodleFighter (7062 posts) -
@Telekill said:

I was interested in the idea of Steam Machine until the prices and variations were announced. I mean, $500 is one thing (and coincidentally my max for a gaming system), but the prices skyrocket to $6000. Who the hell would be willing to spend $6000 on a gaming system?!

The pricing counts as two strikes for me and where the last strike comes in is the controller. What were they thinking?

No one is making you buy a $6000 model, why do people keep bringing it up when there are clearly much cheaper Steam machine options

#36 Posted by no-scope-AK47 (2803 posts) -

IMO hooking your pc to a HDTV with a crappy PPI is like watching tv with grease on the screen.

#37 Posted by treedoor (7648 posts) -

It's for the market of gamers who want a console device, and desire the library of games the Steambox supports.

Why is it confusing to people that someone can want a PS4 for its library, or an Xbox One for its library, but not a Steambox for its library?

There are 478 linux titles on Steam. Anyone who doesn't care to learn how to build a computer can access 478 PC games with a Steam box, and many more to come. Support for linux has taken off big time in the last few years.

#38 Posted by jhcho2 (4411 posts) -

@foxhound_fox said:

It's for people who like the idea of a plug-n-play PC.

i.e. Xbone or PS4.

Err, doesn't the Steam Machine run on Linux? And the last time I checked, most games run only on Windows. So what's so plug and play about machine that requires Windows? Unless I'm getting this all wrong. Can the Steam OS emulate Windows?

#39 Edited by jhcho2 (4411 posts) -

And there's so many things I find misrepresented in that article.

1. There's no such thing as an 'average enthusiast'. You're either an enthusiast, or you're not - in which case, you'll either prefer building your own PC, or not want to care about which of the 13 options are the best configuration. And let's face it, some of the Steam Machines are blatant rip-offs, and it takes a PC enthusiast to notice it immediately.

2. A large portion of that 65 million users are passive subscribers. You must never confuse a passive subscriber with a potential active hardware consumer. Many people have Steam simply because at one point in their life, they bought something from Steam, and created an account for it. This neither indicates nor proves that said person is gonna get up and decide to buy a Steam Machine. To stretch it even further, how does that even remotely indicate any of those people want their PC experiences to be transferred to the living room. As a personal anecdote, I have a female cousin who has Steam. She isn't a core gamer by any stretch of imagination. She has Steam because her college mates convinced her to play Left 4 Dead. So does Valve think she is gonna get a Steam Machine just because she has Steam on her PC? Good luck.

3. Finally, the living room experience. A think one big misconception here is thinking the PC cannot already be brought to the living room. If you are a hardcore PC gamer who has a 3-way GTX780 SLI gaming rig, who just so happened to crave the living room experience more than a bedroom one, are you gonna.....a) Hook your existing rig to the TV....or....b) Buy another damn machine which cost just as much as your current one, albeit not as powerful (duh!) just so that you can have the exact same type of the machine in the living room? This alone is huge gaming related philosophical question. And in many cases, you'll find that people will just opt for the former. Judging by the mentality of a PC gamer myself, if I already had a $2000 rig, would I rather spend another $1000 or so to buy a duplicate machine (but not quite!), or use that $1000 budget to upgrade my PC further? I would opt for the latter. Maybe then, I could play Crysis 3 at 2560x1440p at Ultra Settings and 60fps. Opting the former would not increase the technical/graphical quality of my games. I believe many PC gamers think this way as well.

Bottom line, Valve is making way way too many assumptions, and is imagining up a hypothetical market that only seems to exist on paper, but not in real life.

#40 Edited by jun_aka_pekto (16115 posts) -

@Sushiglutton said:

Suppose your PC is in a room far from your livingroom. What are the solutions on the market if you want to play some games on your TV with a gamepad?

How about bringing the TV into the room with the PC instead? That's what I do. I haven't bought a new PC monitor since 2006. I simply use a 1080p TV.

Since moving from CRT to LCD/Plasma/LED, I've seen TVs proliferate to places where it used to be impractical (due to the bulk of CRT TVs).

Every HDTV I've seen have either a DVI or VGA port. If it's a VGA port, it's usually accompanied by a 1/8" speaker jack and Optical In which normally correspond to the Audio Out and Optical Out on a PC (DVI can carry its own audio signal). Obviously, the manufacturers have the PC in mind when designing the TVs.

#41 Posted by FireEmblem_Man (8761 posts) -

Been having a living room experience from my PC since 2011, I don't need a steam machine for it

#42 Posted by edidili (3449 posts) -

@CrownKingArthur said:

and that reason is to get further away from windows.

If that's the only reason then it's going to fail. Consumers don't give a crap about ideologies.

#43 Posted by musicalmac (23019 posts) -

Ambiguity and Valve have always been good friends. Steam is the most amazing thing they've ever done for gaming, though, and it just keeps getting better. Valve could have made zero games and still be equally important.

#44 Edited by millerlight89 (18543 posts) -

@edidili said:

@CrownKingArthur said:

and that reason is to get further away from windows.

If that's the only reason then it's going to fail. Consumers don't give a crap about ideologies.

Sadly the more they reveal, the more of a fail it becomes. There are too many versions of it. Too many companies making their version. The controller is apparently really bad, and it just doesn't have any place. It doesn't have its own exclusives, and it can't even play all of the PC games. It won't hurt the consoles, and it won't hurt the BIY PC market. I expect to see many of the versions discontinued within the first year or so.

#45 Posted by kalipekona (2299 posts) -

@NoodleFighter said:
@Telekill said:

I was interested in the idea of Steam Machine until the prices and variations were announced. I mean, $500 is one thing (and coincidentally my max for a gaming system), but the prices skyrocket to $6000. Who the hell would be willing to spend $6000 on a gaming system?!

The pricing counts as two strikes for me and where the last strike comes in is the controller. What were they thinking?

No one is making you buy a $6000 model, why do people keep bringing it up when there are clearly much cheaper Steam machine options

It's so ridiculous. It's like saying the existence of $6000 dollar HDTVs makes it impossible for you to pick out an $800 dollar one.

#46 Posted by foxhound_fox (88319 posts) -

@jhcho2 said:

@foxhound_fox said:

It's for people who like the idea of a plug-n-play PC.

i.e. Xbone or PS4.

Err, doesn't the Steam Machine run on Linux? And the last time I checked, most games run only on Windows. So what's so plug and play about machine that requires Windows? Unless I'm getting this all wrong. Can the Steam OS emulate Windows?

The joke was about a lack of games on the PS4/Xbone and them being more like PC/media hubs than gaming consoles.

But your point makes sense. Why would anyone want one? Really? One could make a minimalist Linux/Wine machine that hooks up to their TV and uses a gamepad for less money than a retail Steam machine would, and VALVe and some third-party developers are supporting their games on Linux, making the Steam OS irrelevant.

It's definitely going to be a niche product.

#47 Posted by NFJSupreme (5374 posts) -

Valves disdain for Windows might be the steam machines undoing. If it came with dual os they would sell twice as much as they will if not more. I know you can install windows your self but that defeats the purpose of the device right? Plug and play is the goal right? Savvy users will buy the steam box for its cheap parts and put Windows on it so it's a real pc. But most users aren't savvy (why consoles exist) so they won't see the value in just the parts. I'd still say people who want a cheap gaming pc should just get the $500 steambox and put Windows on it for the full pc experience.

#48 Posted by AmazonTreeBoa (16745 posts) -

@MBirdy88 said:

@AmazonTreeBoa said:

@MBirdy88 said:

@AmazonTreeBoa said:

@Sushiglutton said:

Suppose your PC is in a room far from your livingroom. What are the solutions on the market if you want to play some games on your TV with a gamepad?

Move your PC to the living room and use a controller. Problem solved and without even wasting money on the Steam Box.

sigh.... while im not pro-steam machine (unless it gets the platform even more games.)

but cmon, not everyone wants a damn desk, ugly glowing machine that most enthusiasts make loud with fans and LEDs bright... mine is in my living room.... but its an eye saw.

MAC did get one thing right that we normal PC users dont get.... style. my hulking phatom case, razer perperals and 2 black monitors on a friggin office desk.

Yes because you HAVE to use a desk. *rolls eyes* and it HAS to be loud. *again rolls eyes* And it MUST have bright LED lights. *rolls eyes yet again*

What is an "eye saw"?

It is totally impossible to have a normal sized tower with no lights and fans that aren't loud. Just as it is impossible to hook the thing to a TV and use no desk and use a controller and wireless k/m. Totally impossible to do all of that with a PC isn't it. *rolls eyes* *really misses the emotes*

....

....

.......

a normal size tower is still huge....

most with good cooling and used for overclocking are at least "loudish". buh buh the watercool response right?

LED lights.. yes that is minor, well done... one small victory i suppose.

eye-sore... don't pretend to be smarter than you are, its called a typo.

so let me get this straight. people who want to hook their PC up to a TV ... without the use of a desk (therefore making keyboard/mouse a no-no even with a lap tray or a faggot plank of wood) and expect to have any kind of decent pc experience worth actually having the large form factor device for.....

...

you might want to check your eyes out, seem to be having a slight case of the spastics.

so whats the point in the normal PC over the Steam machine if you want to render the desktop computer side of it useless again?

Who said anything about rendering the desktop side of it useless. It is really that hard for you to get everything working. I feel for you, I really do. Basicly what you just rant on about was you have no argument other than you wish to argue. Gotcha.

#49 Posted by Butcer2 (63 posts) -

valve marketing attitude which is lack of communication with the press and ignoring release dates attitude will not work to sell consoles,