Pirates annihilate this PC exclusive said developer

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#251 Posted by lowe0 (13692 posts) -

[QUOTE="lowe0"][QUOTE="clyde46"]

The general age group on consoles may contribe to it. There is a massive market for games aimed at the 16-21 age gamer. COD being one of those.

clyde46

Bzzt. Did you not meet any music snobs in high school and college? Plenty of 16 to 21 year olds find music that's not mass marketed. Why would games be any different?

I said may... I've met plenty of hipster snobs but I've also met my fair share of "Bro" gamers, if it isnt COD or HALO then it doesnt exist sort of mindset.

Whether you tried to soften your position with a "may", Riadon did not. Hence, "may" is not what we're arguing about here.
#252 Posted by loosingENDS (11775 posts) -

It happens.freedomfreak

Not if you make your game for consoles, especially if you make it exclusive

#253 Posted by clyde46 (43957 posts) -
[QUOTE="clyde46"]

[QUOTE="lowe0"] Bzzt. Did you not meet any music snobs in high school and college? Plenty of 16 to 21 year olds find music that's not mass marketed. Why would games be any different?lowe0

I said may... I've met plenty of hipster snobs but I've also met my fair share of "Bro" gamers, if it isnt COD or HALO then it doesnt exist sort of mindset.

Whether you tried to soften your position with a "may", Riadon did not. Hence, "may" is not what we're arguing about here.

Once you get hold of something, you really dont let go do you....
#254 Posted by clyde46 (43957 posts) -

[QUOTE="freedomfreak"]It happens.loosingENDS

Not if you make your game for consoles, especially if you make it exclusive

Piracy is rampant on consoles champ.
#255 Posted by lowe0 (13692 posts) -
[QUOTE="lowe0"][QUOTE="clyde46"]

I said may... I've met plenty of hipster snobs but I've also met my fair share of "Bro" gamers, if it isnt COD or HALO then it doesnt exist sort of mindset.

clyde46
Whether you tried to soften your position with a "may", Riadon did not. Hence, "may" is not what we're arguing about here.

Once you get hold of something, you really dont let go do you....

Does that change whether his statement was correct or incorrect?
#256 Posted by lundy86_4 (42805 posts) -

[QUOTE="freedomfreak"]It happens.loosingENDS

Not if you make your game for consoles, especially if you make it exclusive

Piracy doesn't happen to exclusive console games?

Gears of War 2 pirated.

Gears of War 3 2011's most torrented 360 game.

Halo 3 pirate copy hits internet before retail release.

Halo 4 pirated before release.

#257 Posted by N30F3N1X (7964 posts) -

The link does explain that, actually. The loss is whatever work would have produced had the developers received the lost revenue. In lesser cases, it simply reduces incentive; in more severe cases, it starves the developer of resources that could be used to produce the next game.lowe0

It doesn't explain sh!t. Your "explanation" holds only if the developer would get paid less than he should. It's pure conjecture, and thus, is completely meaningless.

#258 Posted by loosingENDS (11775 posts) -

[QUOTE="loosingENDS"]

[QUOTE="freedomfreak"]It happens.clyde46

Not if you make your game for consoles, especially if you make it exclusive

Piracy is rampant on consoles champ.

Maybe, but the actual sales are huge

Skyrim did 6+ million on xbox 360 alone, i dont see piracy hurting console sales at all

If it was only on PC, Bethesda would have closed doors years back

If piracy is 30% on consoles, it is like 99,9% on PC

#259 Posted by lowe0 (13692 posts) -

[QUOTE="lowe0"]The link does explain that, actually. The loss is whatever work would have produced had the developers received the lost revenue. In lesser cases, it simply reduces incentive; in more severe cases, it starves the developer of resources that could be used to produce the next game.N30F3N1X

It doesn't explain sh!t. Your "explanation" holds only if the developer would get paid less than he should. It's pure conjecture, and thus, is completely meaningless.

It's a well established economic principle. Feel free to remain ignorant towards it if you like.
#260 Posted by clyde46 (43957 posts) -

[QUOTE="clyde46"][QUOTE="loosingENDS"]

Not if you make your game for consoles, especially if you make it exclusive

loosingENDS

Piracy is rampant on consoles champ.

Maybe, but the actual sales are huge

Skyrim did 6+ million on xbox 360 alone, i dont see piracy hurting console sales at all

If it was only on PC, Bethesda would have closed doors years back

Proof before you make wild claims.
#261 Posted by lundy86_4 (42805 posts) -

Maybe, but the actual sales are huge

Skyrim did 6+ million on xbox 360 alone, i dont see piracy hurting console sales at all

If it was only on PC, Bethesda would have closed doors years back

If piracy is 30% on consoles, it is like 99,9% on PC

loosingENDS

You're assuming for the majority of this post. You don't know if Bethesda would have closed, and you don't know the piracy rates.

#262 Posted by menes777 (2643 posts) -

[QUOTE="menes777"]

[QUOTE="lowe0"] Word of mouth would be a pretty obvious one.lowe0

Not so much for the console world. CoD keeps making record breaking sales because it's constantly in our face with massive amounts of advertising spent on it. If a game isn't hyped to hell and back on console it probably doesn't do very well. There is the rare exception but for the most part unless a game has a huge advertising budget it's going to fail. Word of mouth on consoles is nowhere near the same level as it is on PC.

Okay, prove it. Explain in detail why PC gamers are able to make decisions about games independently yet console gamers cannot. If you're going to spout this sort of elitist nonsense, then back it up.

Calm down there bud, no one said that console gamers cannot make decisioins independently. The games that sell the most are the ones that are advertised the most. That's true for PC and Console, but more so for console than PC.

#263 Posted by N30F3N1X (7964 posts) -

It's a well established economic principle. Feel free to remain ignorant towards it if you like.lowe0

It's a well estabilished pricinple that in no way applies to what we're speaking about ;) You're the one who's being ignorant here.

#264 Posted by santoron (7622 posts) -

[QUOTE="clyde46"]

[QUOTE="lowe0"] Okay, prove it. Explain in detail why PC gamers are able to make decisions about games independently yet console gamers cannot. If you're going to spout this sort of elitist nonsense, then back it up.lowe0

The general age group on consoles may contribe to it. There is a massive market for games aimed at the 16-21 age gamer. COD being one of those.

Bzzt. Did you not meet any music snobs in high school and college? Plenty of 16 to 21 year olds find music that's not mass marketed. Why would games be any different?

You're arguing exceptions to attempt to invalidate a generalization about a majority. While I think the whole argument you're chasing is rather silly, that's a poor way to debate.

Facts are:

Advertising dollars are slanted heavily in favor of the console platforms, in good part because of the $$$ the platforms put into advertising games themselves.

There are fewer titles released on consoles than on PC, further diluting what advertising $$$ PC games have compared to the consoles.

Despite these facts, PC gaming revenue continues to increase, while console gaming has been shrinking for four years now. Feel free to draw conclusions of your own, but it's completely reasonable to assume the AVERAGE PC gamer is more likely to be getting news of many PC titles from forums, blogs, and word of mouth, than a console gamer, if only because the advertising for many PC games simply does not exist. To completely deny that as at least plausible is to argue the console platform owners and major publishers are morons throwing millions of dollars into advertising absolutely NO ONE watches/sees.

#265 Posted by Puckhog04 (22601 posts) -

We console gamers buy our games. Nuff' said. Hell, I already owned Witcher 2 on pc and bought it again on Xbox 360 (great version btw...preferred it on 360) just to suppot CD Project.

#266 Posted by lowe0 (13692 posts) -

[QUOTE="lowe0"][QUOTE="clyde46"]

The general age group on consoles may contribe to it. There is a massive market for games aimed at the 16-21 age gamer. COD being one of those.

santoron

Bzzt. Did you not meet any music snobs in high school and college? Plenty of 16 to 21 year olds find music that's not mass marketed. Why would games be any different?

You're arguing exceptions to attempt to invalidate a generalization about a majority. While I think the whole argument you're chasing is rather silly, that's a poor way to debate.

Facts are:

Advertising dollars are slanted heavily in favor of the console platforms, in good part because of the $$$ the platforms put into advertising games themselves.

There are fewer titles released on consoles than on PC, further diluting what advertising $$$ PC games have compared to the consoles.

Despite these facts, PC gaming revenue continues to increase, while console gaming has been shrinking for four years now. Feel free to draw conclusions of your own, but it's completely reasonable to assume the AVERAGE PC gamer is more likely to be getting news of many PC titles from forums, blogs, and word of mouth, than a console gamer, if only because the advertising for many PC games simply does not exist. To completely deny that as at least plausible is to argue the console platform owners and major publishers are morons throwing millions of dollars into advertising absolutely NO ONE watches/sees.

Except it wasn't a generalization, but an absolute statement ("only").
#267 Posted by lowe0 (13692 posts) -

[QUOTE="lowe0"][QUOTE="menes777"]

Not so much for the console world. CoD keeps making record breaking sales because it's constantly in our face with massive amounts of advertising spent on it. If a game isn't hyped to hell and back on console it probably doesn't do very well. There is the rare exception but for the most part unless a game has a huge advertising budget it's going to fail. Word of mouth on consoles is nowhere near the same level as it is on PC.

menes777

Okay, prove it. Explain in detail why PC gamers are able to make decisions about games independently yet console gamers cannot. If you're going to spout this sort of elitist nonsense, then back it up.

Calm down there bud, no one said that console gamers cannot make decisioins independently. The games that sell the most are the ones that are advertised the most. That's true for PC and Console, but more so for console than PC.

That we only make our decision bases on marketing is exactly what he said.
#268 Posted by DontGetBigIdeas (233 posts) -

[QUOTE="lowe0"][QUOTE="clyde46"]

The general age group on consoles may contribe to it. There is a massive market for games aimed at the 16-21 age gamer. COD being one of those.

santoron

Bzzt. Did you not meet any music snobs in high school and college? Plenty of 16 to 21 year olds find music that's not mass marketed. Why would games be any different?

You're arguing exceptions to attempt to invalidate a generalization about a majority. While I think the whole argument you're chasing is rather silly, that's a poor way to debate.

Facts are:

Advertising dollars are slanted heavily in favor of the console platforms, in good part because of the $$$ the platforms put into advertising games themselves.

There are fewer titles released on consoles than on PC, further diluting what advertising $$$ PC games have compared to the consoles.

Despite these facts, PC gaming revenue continues to increase, while console gaming has been shrinking for four years now. Feel free to draw conclusions of your own, but it's completely reasonable to assume the AVERAGE PC gamer is more likely to be getting news of many PC titles from forums, blogs, and word of mouth, than a console gamer, if only because the advertising for many PC games simply does not exist. To completely deny that as at least plausible is to argue the console platform owners and major publishers are morons throwing millions of dollars into advertising absolutely NO ONE watches/sees.

PC games also release to niche markets that consoles simply don't value, such as strategy gamers. You will never see Crusader Kings 2 on Xbox 360/PS3, but it's also not going to be getting a huge marketing budget because PC companies know their audience and target their money to them. Yet Crusader Kings 2 did well fo itself, well enough to warrant DLC and a great modding community.

That doesn't consoles are bad or are dying, it just shows you how different the PC audience is to the console audience -- and frankly most gamers have at least one console and a gaming playing PC. Go look at the ESA's facts on it and you'll see that people who identify themselves as gamers generally own both. Where they spend their money is a different factor (with tons of non-charted variables such as PC power, preference, etc.)

In terms of advertising, think of consoles as a fish net. You make as many games for the masses as you can and market to the masses, dragging the net through the ocean to get as many consumers as you can. PCs don't have to do that, but AAA games that sell on consoles typically are also the games that are driving PC sales.

#269 Posted by lowe0 (13692 posts) -

[QUOTE="lowe0"]It's a well established economic principle. Feel free to remain ignorant towards it if you like.N30F3N1X

It's a well estabilished pricinple that in no way applies to what we're speaking about ;) You're the one who's being ignorant here.

Hmm? It's consuming without contributing to the cost. It's entirely applicable.
#270 Posted by menes777 (2643 posts) -

[QUOTE="menes777"]

[QUOTE="lowe0"] Okay, prove it. Explain in detail why PC gamers are able to make decisions about games independently yet console gamers cannot. If you're going to spout this sort of elitist nonsense, then back it up.lowe0

Calm down there bud, no one said that console gamers cannot make decisioins independently. The games that sell the most are the ones that are advertised the most. That's true for PC and Console, but more so for console than PC.

That we only make our decision bases on marketing is exactly what he said.

But you made the leap and assumed that's what he meant. You chose to take it as an insult. Do you have any proof of the opposite, that console gamers do not make their buying decisions (whether directly or buy for someone else such as a child) based on marketing? Maybe you should establish that your case is solid before accusing others that their's isn't.

#271 Posted by lowe0 (13692 posts) -

[QUOTE="lowe0"][QUOTE="menes777"]

Calm down there bud, no one said that console gamers cannot make decisioins independently. The games that sell the most are the ones that are advertised the most. That's true for PC and Console, but more so for console than PC.

menes777

That we only make our decision bases on marketing is exactly what he said.

But you made the leap and assumed that's what he meant. You chose to take it as an insult. Do you have any proof of the opposite, that console gamers do not make their buying decisions (whether directly or buy for someone else such as a child) based on marketing? Maybe you should establish that your case is solid before accusing others that their's isn't.

Already posted one - Minecraft. Millions sold on 360 and not a single celebrity commercial on Sunday football.

#272 Posted by santoron (7622 posts) -

PC games also release to niche markets that consoles simply don't value, such as strategy gamers. You will never see Crusader Kings 2 on Xbox 360/PS3, but it's also not going to be getting a huge marketing budget because PC companies know their audience and target their money to them. Yet Crusader Kings 2 did well fo itself, well enough to warrant DLC and a great modding community.

That doesn't consoles are bad or are dying, it just shows you how different the PC audience is to the console audience -- and frankly most gamers have at least one console and a gaming playing PC. Go look at the ESA's facts on it and you'll see that people who identify themselves as gamers generally own both. Where they spend their money is a different factor (with tons of non-charted variables such as PC power, preference, etc.)

In terms of advertising, think of consoles as a fish net. You make as many games for the masses as you can and market to the masses, dragging the net through the ocean to get as many consumers as you can. PCs don't have to do that, DontGetBigIdeas

I have no real disagreements with any of that...

but AAA games that sell on consoles typically are also the games that are driving PC sales.

...except for that, perhaps. I'd argue it's precisely those "niche" markets that are underserved/ignored on consoles that are the difference between a shrinking console market and a growing PC gaming industry, unless you're arguing that most PC/console multiplats sell better on PC...

#273 Posted by menes777 (2643 posts) -

[QUOTE="menes777"]

[QUOTE="lowe0"] That we only make our decision bases on marketing is exactly what he said.lowe0

But you made the leap and assumed that's what he meant. You chose to take it as an insult. Do you have any proof of the opposite, that console gamers do not make their buying decisions (whether directly or buy for someone else such as a child) based on marketing? Maybe you should establish that your case is solid before accusing others that their's isn't.

Already posted one - Minecraft. Millions sold and not a single celebrity commercial on Sunday football.

Actually that proves my point. The success of MC has come from PC users spreading things by word of mouth. It didn't start on Xbox and its popularity didn't come from console players. It came from a vast PC community that spread the word around with virtually zero advertisting budget. Whole PC communities are built around it and when it was added to the Xbox that trickled into the players who were PC and have an Xbox. Also when the Xbox version had come out the PC version was extremely well known. So it wasn't like some upstart that just happened to be popular on Xbox live. Do you have any evidence to the contrary such as CoD selling what it has based on anything but marketting?

#274 Posted by GD1551 (9155 posts) -

We console gamers buy our games. Nuff' said. Hell, I already owned Witcher 2 on pc and bought it again on Xbox 360 (great version btw...preferred it on 360) just to suppot CD Project.

Puckhog04

I guess you preferred it for the achievements?

#275 Posted by lowe0 (13692 posts) -

[QUOTE="lowe0"][QUOTE="menes777"]

But you made the leap and assumed that's what he meant. You chose to take it as an insult. Do you have any proof of the opposite, that console gamers do not make their buying decisions (whether directly or buy for someone else such as a child) based on marketing? Maybe you should establish that your case is solid before accusing others that their's isn't.

menes777

Already posted one - Minecraft. Millions sold and not a single celebrity commercial on Sunday football.

Actually that proves my point. The success of MC has come from PC users spreading things by word of mouth. It didn't start on Xbox and its popularity didn't come from console players. It came from a vast PC community that spread the word around with virtually zero advertisting budget. Whole PC communities are built around it and when it was added to the Xbox that trickled into the players who were PC and have an Xbox. Also when the Xbox version had come out the PC version was extremely well known. So it wasn't like some upstart that just happened to be popular on Xbox live. Do you have any evidence to the contrary such as CoD selling what it has based on anything but marketting?

I'm not saying that word of mouth didn't promote the game on PC. I'm saying word of mouth did promote it on 360. There's not some ability to recommend games independently that's intrinsic to a single platform's users only. Argue against what I actually said, not what's convenient for you.
#276 Posted by 04dcarraher (19139 posts) -
[QUOTE="loosingENDS"]

[QUOTE="clyde46"] Piracy is rampant on consoles champ.clyde46

Maybe, but the actual sales are huge

Skyrim did 6+ million on xbox 360 alone, i dont see piracy hurting console sales at all

If it was only on PC, Bethesda would have closed doors years back

Proof before you make wild claims.

lol, when Skyrim was $40 on steam December of last year, set a new Steam record of nearly 250k users playing Skyrim at any given time for weeks. also Skyrim is the fastest-selling Steam game ever, 10 million retail copies shipped.
#277 Posted by menes777 (2643 posts) -

[QUOTE="menes777"]

[QUOTE="lowe0"] Already posted one - Minecraft. Millions sold and not a single celebrity commercial on Sunday football.lowe0

Actually that proves my point. The success of MC has come from PC users spreading things by word of mouth. It didn't start on Xbox and its popularity didn't come from console players. It came from a vast PC community that spread the word around with virtually zero advertisting budget. Whole PC communities are built around it and when it was added to the Xbox that trickled into the players who were PC and have an Xbox. Also when the Xbox version had come out the PC version was extremely well known. So it wasn't like some upstart that just happened to be popular on Xbox live. Do you have any evidence to the contrary such as CoD selling what it has based on anything but marketting?

I'm not saying that word of mouth didn't promote the game on PC. I'm saying word of mouth did promote it on 360. There's not some ability to recommend games independently that's intrinsic to a single platform's users only. Argue against what I actually said, not what's convenient for you.

It wasn't word of mouth from console players though. It was word of mouth from the PC gamers. That's a big difference. Also MC is an exception in more ways than one even on the PC.

#278 Posted by lowe0 (13692 posts) -

[QUOTE="lowe0"][QUOTE="menes777"]

Actually that proves my point. The success of MC has come from PC users spreading things by word of mouth. It didn't start on Xbox and its popularity didn't come from console players. It came from a vast PC community that spread the word around with virtually zero advertisting budget. Whole PC communities are built around it and when it was added to the Xbox that trickled into the players who were PC and have an Xbox. Also when the Xbox version had come out the PC version was extremely well known. So it wasn't like some upstart that just happened to be popular on Xbox live. Do you have any evidence to the contrary such as CoD selling what it has based on anything but marketting?

menes777

I'm not saying that word of mouth didn't promote the game on PC. I'm saying word of mouth did promote it on 360. There's not some ability to recommend games independently that's intrinsic to a single platform's users only. Argue against what I actually said, not what's convenient for you.

It wasn't word of mouth from console players though. It was word of mouth from the PC gamers. That's a big difference. Also MC is an exception in more ways than one even on the PC.

Except the claim was that we're following marketing. If we're following word of mouth, regardless of source, that contradicts the original claim.

While we're at it: what's driving sales of Black Ops 2 on PC?

#279 Posted by DontGetBigIdeas (233 posts) -

...except for that, perhaps. I'd argue it's precisely those "niche" markets that are underserved/ignored on consoles that are the difference between a shrinking console market and a growing PC gaming industry, unless you're arguing that most PC/console multiplats sell better on PC...

To be fair, the way NPD releases data and the fact we have no breakdown of sales numbers per NPD (link), just one big number, doesn't give us any concrete data. I would guess that 50% of a game such as Call of Duty: Black Ops 2 sold on console and the other on PC, but it would not be unheard of for the console version to sell better than the PC version.

But we just don't know. It's speculation and pointless at that.

Also, the shrinking console market isn't because of niche genres on PC, it's been cited because this console generation is gone on so long and consumers are moving to new tech such as tablets. The market will grow next Christmas with all three major players with new consoles, games and IPs. This happens at the end of every console generation, but I think we will definately see the handheld market get phased out by tablets.

#280 Posted by santoron (7622 posts) -

...except for that, perhaps. I'd argue it's precisely those "niche" markets that are underserved/ignored on consoles that are the difference between a shrinking console market and a growing PC gaming industry, unless you're arguing that most PC/console multiplats sell better on PC...DontGetBigIdeas

To be fair, the way NPD releases data and the fact we have no breakdown of sales numbers per NPD (link), just one big number, doesn't give us any concrete data. I would guess that 50% of a game such as Call of Duty: Black Ops 2 sold on console and the other on PC, but it would not be unheard of for the console version to sell better than the PC version.

But we just don't know. It's speculation and pointless at that.

Also, the shrinking console market isn't because of niche genres on PC, it's been cited because this console generation is gone on so long and consumers are moving to new tech such as tablets. The market will grow next Christmas with all three major players with new consoles, games and IPs. This happens at the end of every console generation, but I think we will definately see the handheld market get phased out by tablets.

I would hazard a guess that combined console CoD sales obliterated PC sales, but you're right, I don't have a link I'd trust (lolvgchartz) to prove such, and I don't wish to even try to look, as we could argue this all day.:P

We've heard this argument about the long gen being to blame a lot recently, but it doesn't hold much water. Sales have declined for over four straight years now, which puts the initial decline less than three years into the 360's lifetime, and not even two years after the PS3 and Wii launched. That's doesn't look like extended cycles are to blame. I do agree with you though that mobile platforms are definitely a factor. A big one.

#281 Posted by HaloinventedFPS (4699 posts) -

Im played flash & freeware games with more content than Hotline Miami

#282 Posted by MBirdy88 (7360 posts) -

Im played flash & freeware games with more content than Hotline Miami

HaloinventedFPS
I thought this about FTL aswell, alot of indie games are totally hipster now.
#283 Posted by DontGetBigIdeas (233 posts) -

[QUOTE="DontGetBigIdeas"]

...except for that, perhaps. I'd argue it's precisely those "niche" markets that are underserved/ignored on consoles that are the difference between a shrinking console market and a growing PC gaming industry, unless you're arguing that most PC/console multiplats sell better on PC...santoron

To be fair, the way NPD releases data and the fact we have no breakdown of sales numbers per NPD (link), just one big number, doesn't give us any concrete data. I would guess that 50% of a game such as Call of Duty: Black Ops 2 sold on console and the other on PC, but it would not be unheard of for the console version to sell better than the PC version.

But we just don't know. It's speculation and pointless at that.

Also, the shrinking console market isn't because of niche genres on PC, it's been cited because this console generation is gone on so long and consumers are moving to new tech such as tablets. The market will grow next Christmas with all three major players with new consoles, games and IPs. This happens at the end of every console generation, but I think we will definately see the handheld market get phased out by tablets.

I would hazard a guess that combined console CoD sales obliterated PC sales, but you're right, I don't have a link I'd trust (lolvgchartz) to prove such, and I don't wish to even try to look, as we could argue this all day.:P

We've heard this argument about the long gen being to blame a lot recently, but it doesn't hold much water. Sales have declined for over four straight years now, which puts the initial decline less than three years into the 360's lifetime, and not even two years after the PS3 and Wii launched. That's doesn't look like extended cycles are to blame. I do agree with you though that mobile platforms are definitely a factor. A big one.

I think part of the problem is that the market isn't really shrinking, it's just not paying attention. With the Wii boom, so many non-gamers got into the industry but they stopped at Wii Sports and Carnival Games. So now you have this huge market that isn't buy anything because they only played one or two games. There's a few theories about it. You can chalk up sales to the fact that game consoles do more than games now, so for some people it's a way to stream ESPN and NetFlix, and I think you're right that the decline over four years is alarming -- but not a cause for panic. The truth is that this gen broke into a new market and now they're stuck with trying to keep that market and they haven't done it.
#284 Posted by R4gn4r0k (16249 posts) -

If piracy is 30% on consoles, it is like 99,9% on PC

loosingENDS

...Aaaaaand loosingENDS is back to trolling. That was faster than I thought

#285 Posted by NoodleFighter (6959 posts) -

[QUOTE="lowe0"]It's a well established economic principle. Feel free to remain ignorant towards it if you like.N30F3N1X

It's a well estabilished pricinple that in no way applies to what we're speaking about ;) You're the one who's being ignorant here.

He's already admitted to saying he has no clue to how much billboard, public transportation posters, and TV ads cost yet he believes they're not mass marketing just cause some games have bigger mass marketing budgets via Halo 4 Mountain dew, if that were true then we'd see a lot more PC games on billboards and TV.

#286 Posted by lowe0 (13692 posts) -

[QUOTE="N30F3N1X"]

[QUOTE="lowe0"]It's a well established economic principle. Feel free to remain ignorant towards it if you like.NoodleFighter

It's a well estabilished pricinple that in no way applies to what we're speaking about ;) You're the one who's being ignorant here.

He's already admitted to saying he has no clue to how much billboard, public transportation posters, and TV ads cost yet he believes they're not mass marketing just cause some games have bigger mass marketing budgets via Halo 4 Mountain dew, if that were true then we'd see a lot more PC games on billboards and TV.

What, like you already do? Diablo 3? Mists of Pandaria?

Besides, those games that I listed, plus Call of Duty, are all multiplatform. Care to explain how one platform's users are unaffected by marketing and are buying on merit, yet the other two aren't?

#287 Posted by santoron (7622 posts) -
[QUOTE="DontGetBigIdeas"] I think part of the problem is that the market isn't really shrinking, it's just not paying attention. With the Wii boom, so many non-gamers got into the industry but they stopped at Wii Sports and Carnival Games. So now you have this huge market that isn't buy anything because they only played one or two games. There's a few theories about it. You can chalk up sales to the fact that game consoles do more than games now, so for some people it's a way to stream ESPN and NetFlix, and I think you're right that the decline over four years is alarming -- but not a cause for panic. The truth is that this gen broke into a new market and now they're stuck with trying to keep that market and they haven't done it.

All excellent points. Even if we keep things year on year, actual console sales this gen compare favorably to the seventh gen. People simply aren't buying as many console games anymore. In addition to the points you listed (all spot on, IMO) I'd say the increasing reliance on multiplayer to pad games, DLC to extend them, tent pole games with fewer games made overall, and rising prices that don't compare well to current emerging competition have all also combined to create a console environment where hardware sells and software lags - a bad proposition for platforms that often lose money on hardware early on (sometimes a LOT of money) and maintain slim profit margins the rest of the time to drive sales. Unfortunately, major publishers and the platform owners continue to believe (at least publicly) that the only thing "wrong" now is old hardware. IMO, only by facing reality - and reacting aggressively to all points - will consoles reverse current trends.
#288 Posted by Jebus213 (8716 posts) -
What, like you already do? Diablo 3? Mists of Pandaria? Besides, those games that I listed, plus Call of Dutylowe0
huh?
#289 Posted by DontGetBigIdeas (233 posts) -
[QUOTE="santoron"][QUOTE="DontGetBigIdeas"] I think part of the problem is that the market isn't really shrinking, it's just not paying attention. With the Wii boom, so many non-gamers got into the industry but they stopped at Wii Sports and Carnival Games. So now you have this huge market that isn't buy anything because they only played one or two games. There's a few theories about it. You can chalk up sales to the fact that game consoles do more than games now, so for some people it's a way to stream ESPN and NetFlix, and I think you're right that the decline over four years is alarming -- but not a cause for panic. The truth is that this gen broke into a new market and now they're stuck with trying to keep that market and they haven't done it.

All excellent points. Even if we keep things year on year, actual console sales this gen compare favorably to the seventh gen. People simply aren't buying as many console games anymore. In addition to the points you listed (all spot on, IMO) I'd say the increasing reliance on multiplayer to pad games, DLC to extend them, tent pole games with fewer games made overall, and rising prices that don't compare well to current emerging competition have all also combined to create a console environment where hardware sells and software lags - a bad proposition for platforms that often lose money on hardware early on (sometimes a LOT of money) and maintain slim profit margins the rest of the time to drive sales. Unfortunately, major publishers and the platform owners continue to believe (at least publicly) that the only thing "wrong" now is old hardware. IMO, only by facing reality - and reacting aggressively to all points - will consoles reverse current trends.

A...good...conversation about different platforms with varying views that can come together to have a real discussion...we are on System Wars right? RIGHT? This isn't supposed to happen!
#290 Posted by lowe0 (13692 posts) -
[QUOTE="lowe0"]What, like you already do? Diablo 3? Mists of Pandaria? Besides, those games that I listed, plus Call of DutyJebus213
huh?

Dishonored, Borderlands, Deus Ex Human Revolution, and modern Call of Duty games are all multiplatform (even the original Call of Duty is now on consoles, if you're thinking of trying that angle).
#291 Posted by santoron (7622 posts) -
[QUOTE="DontGetBigIdeas"] A...good...conversation about different platforms with varying views that can come together to have a real discussion...we are on System Wars right? RIGHT? This isn't supposed to happen!

:lol: Well they say the end of the world is near! Perhaps it's a sign... :P
#292 Posted by NoodleFighter (6959 posts) -

[QUOTE="NoodleFighter"]

[QUOTE="N30F3N1X"]

It's a well estabilished pricinple that in no way applies to what we're speaking about ;) You're the one who's being ignorant here.

lowe0

He's already admitted to saying he has no clue to how much billboard, public transportation posters, and TV ads cost yet he believes they're not mass marketing just cause some games have bigger mass marketing budgets via Halo 4 Mountain dew, if that were true then we'd see a lot more PC games on billboards and TV.

What, like you already do? Diablo 3? Mists of Pandaria?

Besides, those games that I listed, plus Call of Duty, are all multiplatform. Care to explain how one platform's users are unaffected by marketing and are buying on merit, yet the other two aren't?

Blizzard games? Really, thats what all you can basically come up with for PC games with mass marketing

Total War series didn't get any massive marketing campaign till Shogun 2 started coming and it was basically only the History channel the TV ad was on,

S.T.A.L.K.E.R was a multi million seller and it didn't get a single TV ad or billboard/poster

Crysis was a multi million seller and didn't get any mass marketing till the game went multiplat

The Witcher series was a multi million seller and didn't get any advertising till The Witcher 2 came to Xbox 360

Planetside 2 was one of the biggest games at every gaming expo and still has yet to recieve an ad outside the internet

MechWarrior online has made over $5 million and it's far from being an "official" launch

Terraria has sold 1 million copies on word of mouth a lone

Cthulhu saves the world on PC outsells the Xbox 360 version which has been out for over a year in less than a week

funny how you mention multiplats how about all those console exclusives? Not none of those console multiplats, I'm talking 3rd party console exclusives, how many of those with out massive marketing have become success/sold just as much as their mass market counterparts? Demon Souls certainly didn't and it was one of the most praised PS3 exclusives from a dev that's been around since the Dreamcast/playstation era, neither Alan Wake,.

Blizzard games may have mass marketing but it's still nowhere near what you see on consoles FFS

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#293 Posted by Jebus213 (8716 posts) -
Blizzard games may have mass marketing but it's still nowhere near what you see on consoles FFSNoodleFighter
I disagree. Years of Mr. T's Night Elf Mohawk and Chuck Norris. But yeah it's pretty much Blizzard and Valve.
#294 Posted by lowe0 (13692 posts) -

I'll skip quoting because I'm not going to back and cut the images out. Anyway, you're not going to see many exclusives without marketing, because they're there to market the platform. Of course they're going to be promoted. The rest of your examples contradict a claim that I explicitly said I wasn't making - that PC gamers weren't capable of choosing games without marketing. My argument was, and still is, that console gamers don't lack that ability either.

However, you seem to lack an answer to my question. What distinguishes someone who buys Black Ops 2 or Assassin's Creed 3 on PC from someone who buys them on 360 or PS3? Why is one making a decision based on the game's merits while the other is being led by marketing? You can't take the exact same purchasing decision and spin it two different ways depending on whether you identify with the purchaser.

#295 Posted by blackace (19996 posts) -
[QUOTE="Mr_BillGates"]

The game Hotline Miami has be pirated like crazy. This is the price to pay for making PC exclusives, and it is no wonder Crytek, CD Projekt, and other former PC-only developers crawl to consoles.

[quote="GameSpot"]

"It has been torrented to such a staggering level..."

http://www.gamespot.com/news/hotline-miami-pirated-at-extraordinary-levels-6401453

They should have given Microsoft a call before releasing this on the PC. They would have made a lot more money on XBLA if they had.
#296 Posted by NoodleFighter (6959 posts) -

I'll skip quoting because I'm not going to back and cut the images out. Anyway, you're not going to see many exclusives without marketing, because they're there to market the platform. Of course they're going to be promoted. The rest of your examples contradict a claim that I explicitly said I wasn't making - that PC gamers weren't capable of choosing games without marketing. My argument was, and still is, that console gamers don't lack that ability either.

However, you seem to lack an answer to my question. What distinguishes someone who buys Black Ops 2 or Assassin's Creed 3 on PC from someone who buys them on 360 or PS3? Why is one making a decision based on the game's merits while the other is being led by marketing? You can't take the exact same purchasing decision and spin it two different ways depending on whether you identify with the purchaser.

lowe0

When it's a multiplatform mass marketed game sure it will be hard to distinguish, but it's easier to see the difference when it's exclusive/lesser known/marketed titles.

Many developers have stated that with PC market a lot of games are spread around by word of mouth, the indie scene already proves it, I've already shown you with said PC games reaching success/popularity despite not having mass marketing as their console counterparts. PC gamer even has a video interviewing developers on what they think makes PC gamers different from console gamers.

#297 Posted by WilliamRLBaker (28332 posts) -
No proof, he doesn't even seem annoyed, and he even says it himself that the source he's claiming isn't accurate.Loegi
oh its accurate its a complete fact if you dont release your pc game on steam then it gets pirated to hell and back.
#298 Posted by blackace (19996 posts) -
Are PC gamers actually this cheap that they can't buy a $10 game.
#299 Posted by lowe0 (13692 posts) -

[QUOTE="lowe0"]

I'll skip quoting because I'm not going to back and cut the images out. Anyway, you're not going to see many exclusives without marketing, because they're there to market the platform. Of course they're going to be promoted. The rest of your examples contradict a claim that I explicitly said I wasn't making - that PC gamers weren't capable of choosing games without marketing. My argument was, and still is, that console gamers don't lack that ability either.

However, you seem to lack an answer to my question. What distinguishes someone who buys Black Ops 2 or Assassin's Creed 3 on PC from someone who buys them on 360 or PS3? Why is one making a decision based on the game's merits while the other is being led by marketing? You can't take the exact same purchasing decision and spin it two different ways depending on whether you identify with the purchaser.

NoodleFighter

When it's a multiplatform mass marketed game sure it will be hard to distinguish, but it's easier to see the difference when it's exclusive/lesser known/marketed titles.

Many developers have stated that with PC market a lot of games are spread around by word of mouth, the indie scene already proves it, I've already shown you with said PC games reaching success/popularity despite not having mass marketing as their console counterparts.

Just word of mouth, though? And not that prized advertising space right in the middle of the Steam client? Introversion, for example, was quite clear what a difference getting on the Steam home actually makes.

Everyone's being marketed to. The difference is, I'm not pretending that gamers on my platform of choice are somehow above it. Riadon did.

#300 Posted by R4gn4r0k (16249 posts) -

Are PC gamers actually this cheap that they can't buy a $10 game.blackace

Seems to be. And some smartphone gamers are too cheap to pay 99 cents.

Price has no effect on piracy. A reason for pirating is because they aren't willing to pay anything, not a single cent.