Nintendo's Arrogance is Reaching New Limits

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#51 Posted by GreySeal9 (23974 posts) -

@GreySeal9: If I want to leave my opinion I will. I don't need you pre empting it. Whoever you are.

I'll make sure to pre-empt your opinion in other threads.

#52 Edited by DocSanchez (1474 posts) -
#53 Edited by DocSanchez (1474 posts) -

@GreySeal9: You can try but I've got to tell you obsession is not a good way to go through life.

#54 Posted by GreySeal9 (23974 posts) -

@GreySeal9: You can try but I've got to tell you obsession is not a good way to go through life.

You being fun to mess with/=/obsession, but you can go ahead and flatter yourself if you want.

#55 Posted by blackace (19996 posts) -

@Gue1: Don't think he was being arrogant. It's true that the majority of Nintendo's games are different from the mainstream PS and XBox type games. They are usually a bit more kiddie, but have some decent innovation to them. That's one reason why many gamers are interested in their games. I can see a lot more gamers getting interested in a Wii U next year because of the games that were shown at the E3.

#56 Posted by The_Last_Ride (69531 posts) -

Did they actually watch the other conferences?

#57 Edited by B4X (3246 posts) -

@mems_1224 said:

Its not arrogance when its true.

Word. The biggest releases this year Envolve a shooter as our Destiny. We should be Called to Duty to try and Counter Strike this agenda, and stop Quaking at the DOOM our industry is heading. More than Half my Life has involved shooters. They are trying to create a Division amongst gamers. It's a damn Battlefield out there people. Take off your Halos and stand up to this Alien way of thinking!

#58 Edited by KHAndAnime (13272 posts) -

It's funny because out of all the consoles, it's only Nintendo's that completely relies on rehashed titles and endlessly reused IP. If Nintendo couldn't re-use Mario, Zelda, or any other of their "go-to" IP's, they'd be 100% dead in the water. Nintendo's consoles consistently have the least amount of variety and content out of any gaming console.

Hey Cows, quick - what are 5 80%+ rated WiiU games that aren't old Nintendo IP?

#59 Posted by Bigboi500 (29053 posts) -

@b4x said:

@mems_1224 said:

Its not arrogance when its true.

Word. The biggest releases this year Envolve a shooter as our Destiny. We should be Called to Duty to try and Counter Strike this agenda, and stop Quaking at the DOOM our industry is heading. More than Half my Life has involved shooters. They're are trying to crate a Division amongst gamers. It's a damn Battlefield out there people. Take off your Halos and stand up to this Alien way of thinking!

+1 for pure poetry

#60 Posted by 22Toothpicks (11274 posts) -

@b4x said:

@mems_1224 said:

Its not arrogance when its true.

Word. The biggest releases this year Envolve a shooter as our Destiny. We should be Called to Duty to try and Counter Strike this agenda, and stop Quaking at the DOOM our industry is heading. More than Half my Life has involved shooters. They're are trying to create a Division amongst gamers. It's a damn Battlefield out there people. Take off your Halos and stand up to this Alien way of thinking!

Nice.

#61 Posted by CrashNBurn281 (391 posts) -
#62 Edited by Speak_Low (832 posts) -

@drummerdave9099 said:

I can't wait to read the same Speak Low paragraph about Nintendo he types in every topic on this forum

You can't wait to READ? You don't like to see my opposing views on Nintendo but you want to read my posts?

Get real

As for Miyamoto's Investor Q&A, I've seen most of it on GAF already and like all corporate statements, there's some you agree with and some you don't. There's another part of that Q&A where he says the entire industry (and he includes Nintendo) is "creatively immature" and needs to expand more with new ideas and genres.

(Miyamoto says the medium is creatively immature)

Me and others have said the same things in another thread - about Nintendo and other developers needing to expand their range more - and Sheep flipped out because I included Nintendo in my accusations of "playing it safe" and lacking experience in other areas, even though I said it was also understandable given the financial risks and uncertainty of consumer response. I tried to consider both sides and they still FLIPPED the hell out.

But Miyamoto says the same thing and I bet they're nodding agreeably now, like their sagacious philosopher has dispensed something rare, something wise about the industry they love, and they're savoring those divine words until the next Nintendo Investor Meeting.

Get real

Miyamoto (and this goes for other CEOs and leading industry voices, including MS and Sony) all say some true things but there can be a little PR fluff going on in between the lines. Here, Miyamoto was responding to some fireball glances from impatient Investors this year (and if you read most of it, they definitely were drilling Nintendo more than ever this time). Miyamoto repeats similar things every year and meeting. Just confidently define your company's core tenets ("we love creativity, uniqueness, and the spirit of fun") and knock them out with sheer volume (Investors must think he really cares because Miyamoto talks a lot sometimes) and Nintendo buys themselves some more time, again. Investor pitchforks lowered slightly until the next meeting...

The reason I'm tougher on Nintendo's responses than Sony and MS or other developers is because I actually see measurable results from the other two. I see consoles and lots of games being made and sold, like they always should be. Simple, first round objectives are being met. So (to me) their company philosophies can't be that out of whack if they're accomplishing these things, especially in the face of increased competition in today's market. Sony and MS confidently say lots of things beforehand, competes and still finds success. Nintendo confidently says lots of things, competes and deflates. Who looks stupid now?

Iwata/Miyamoto/Reggie will once in a while say something that sounds "deep" about the industry and what it should be doing (and there was a lot of arrogance during the Wii when these three probably felt like NASA experts on every topic), and yet these three guys, their combined "industry wisdom" and others at Nintendo HQ led the company to the worst company losses and console sales in history, following the Wii Vanity era.

When something like that happens, and I see Big talk but small results, your words and thoughts lose a lot of value to me. Empty statements that produce no results.

Iwata and Miyamoto keep saying Nintendo's uniqueness and heavy hitters will turn things around at every investor meeting, and that we need innovation blah blah and variety and blah blah. Some of what he says is right - who could argue against the need for innovation, variety and fresh concepts in gaming? But he's obviously in defensive mode now because of Nintendo's horrible financial situation and sales and the pressuring gaze of Investors who demand serious improvement and excellent numbers, not repeated whimsical assessments about the industry. Miyamoto is clearly a superb Damage Control expert who probably learned a few snazzy tricks from message board users.

#63 Edited by Speak_Low (832 posts) -

@DocSanchez said:

So I'll just leave this here. As you can see, it's all about common misconceptions which desperate people cling on to. It's true that as a proportion of the whole, Nintendo showed far less shooters than the other two who were broadly similar. But as usual, the main point has been missed spectacularly in an attempt to make a silly point and "win" E3 with a bunch of platformers featuring decades old characters. I'll compare them with Sony although I couldv'e just as easily chosen Microsoft.

Sony on it's own had 42 games on show. Half of which are shooters. Want to do the maths? That means 21 games they showed were not shooters. Not including ANY 3rd party multiplats others were showing for their system they did not have on show, the things Nintendo doesn't get near. So to recap, 21 not shooters.

Nintendo had 12 games showed. 12, to save their system. Three quarters were not shooters. Or, 9 in total.

So Nintendo showed 9 non-shooters and Sony showed over double the amount, 21. They just had a fuckton more games to show, a lot of which were shooters because like platforming was the last time Nintendo was cutting edge, it happens to be the most popular genre.

Lazy thinking from the usual suspects.

Haha great ownage. They don't like numbers but prefer keeping to those hazy generalities. It makes Nintendo look better. Much like how they said "every E3 Sony/MS game was a CGI trailer! Nintendo showed actual gameplay and that's why they won hands down!!"

If they actually bothered to count the actual number of CG trailers vs. gameplay trailers/footage from Sony and MS, they'd realize how wrong they were.

I'm quoting your graph and post to make them look at it again. Probably won't have much response because it doesn't make Nintendo look that amazing.

#64 Posted by systemdefender (23 posts) -

arrogance? not sure where you see that. but anyway, who cares?

#65 Posted by DocSanchez (1474 posts) -

@speak_low: Indeed. I've noticed they totally ignored it. They just get personal when they can't argue.

#66 Posted by GreySeal9 (23974 posts) -

@speak_low: Indeed. I've noticed they totally ignored it. They just get personal when they can't argue.

lol. You assume that people are not just saying "tl;dr" and moving on. I sure as fuck didn't read those walls of text.

#67 Edited by Bigboi500 (29053 posts) -

@DocSanchez said:

@speak_low: Indeed. I've noticed they totally ignored it. They just get personal when they can't argue.

lol. You assume that people are not just saying "tl;dr" and moving on. I sure as fuck didn't read those walls of text.

This. Who gives a shit what fanboy drivel is spouted over walls of text? "can't argue" is just another way of saying "waah, nobody is listening to my boorish fanboy crying!".

#68 Posted by DocSanchez (1474 posts) -
#69 Posted by Speak_Low (832 posts) -

I'm sorry DocSanchez. I can see that you already have one of them on your tail, who refuses to stay on topic and is harassing you. This always happens. You post numbers, facts and try to develop your points further (I believe it's called a discussion board), and then you get those types of one-line responses.

They constantly type your name out to bait a battle. You post information that relates to the topic (like it should) and they get even more mad.

What the hell is this place

#70 Edited by GreySeal9 (23974 posts) -

@DocSanchez said:

@GreySeal9: You are obsessed. Get help.

For somebody who is so obsessed, I sure didn't read your wall of text. I think it was a solid decision on my part.

#71 Posted by GreySeal9 (23974 posts) -

I'm sorry DocSanchez. I can see that you already have one of them on your tail, who refuses to stay on topic and is harassing you. This always happens. You post numbers, facts and try to develop your points further (I believe it's called a discussion board), and then you get those types of one-line responses.

They constantly type your name out to bait a battle. You post information that relates to the topic (like it should) and they get even more mad.

What the hell is this place

If it will make you stop crying, I'll read your walls of text.

Well, actually, on second thought, I'm not reading that shit. lol.

#72 Posted by Daious (1020 posts) -

I don't think he meant that as some kind of arrogant remark. He's just describing what kind of games he and Nintendo are interested in making.

Yeah, I didn't read it like he was trash talking but rather showing nintendo's strengths of diversity. I guess he did sort of downplay shooters but it wasn't has bad as the TC stated.

#73 Edited by thomasmcshea (19 posts) -

miyamoto for the most part is right.

so op is 20% right and 80% anally-retentive

#74 Posted by GreySeal9 (23974 posts) -

@daious said:

@PhazonBlazer said:

I don't think he meant that as some kind of arrogant remark. He's just describing what kind of games he and Nintendo are interested in making.

Yeah, I didn't read it like he was trash talking but rather showing nintendo's strengths of diversity. I guess he did sort of downplay shooters but it wasn't has bad as the TC stated.

There were parts of the statement that seemed a bit out of touch, but it's really not a big deal, which is reflected in the general response to this thread.

#75 Posted by drummerdave9099 (625 posts) -

@drummerdave9099 said:

I can't wait to read the same Speak Low paragraph about Nintendo he types in every topic on this forum

You can't wait to READ? You don't like to see my opposing views on Nintendo but you want to read my posts?

Get real

Nah, it's mostly that you're this- "Nintendo can do no right with certain fanboys, no matter what they do or don't do. If they're different, they're wrong. If they're similar, they're copying. If they lead in sales, it doesn't count because just because. If they are last in sales, it's because they're no good." -@Bigboi500

System Wars is a mix of cool people with open minds that have good things to say about gaming, and then close minded people like you that have very little. But I read a good amount of it, and sometimes I get good chuckles, and other times I get good ideas.

#76 Posted by GreySeal9 (23974 posts) -

@GreySeal9 said:
@DocSanchez said:

@speak_low: Indeed. I've noticed they totally ignored it. They just get personal when they can't argue.

lol. You assume that people are not just saying "tl;dr" and moving on. I sure as fuck didn't read those walls of text.

This. Who gives a shit what fanboy drivel is spouted over walls of text? "can't argue" is just another way of saying "waah, nobody is listening to my boorish fanboy crying!".

Well said.

#77 Edited by Speak_Low (832 posts) -

@Bigboi500 said:

@GreySeal9 said:
@DocSanchez said:

@speak_low: Indeed. I've noticed they totally ignored it. They just get personal when they can't argue.

lol. You assume that people are not just saying "tl;dr" and moving on. I sure as fuck didn't read those walls of text.

This. Who gives a shit what fanboy drivel is spouted over walls of text? "can't argue" is just another way of saying "waah, nobody is listening to my boorish fanboy crying!".

He gave you a graph not a "wall of text"

It's pretty simple visual to understand. If you can read Miyamoto's full Q&A quote above, you can read a graph and a few sentences.

Had he not posted it, I bet we'd get endless posts about how Sony/MS showed all bloody shooters at E3, or that everything was all CG. Any time this happens, it seems to imbue the kingdom of Nintendo with a little too much invulnerability, as if they were the "true" and "pure" console for gamers only. And when a company is a little too idolized, it implies they don't have to do anything to improve, and any criticisms lobbed against them seem to be met with extra wrath ("how dare YOU!")

Of course you glanced at the graph (and that other guy too). I'm used to people typing things out here but not being entirely honest about what they actually do. You are not being real, and you need to get real. You looked at the graph, but don't have much to say about it.

Mods, how do I add "Get real" to my sig?

And to get back on topic so it's not back and forth with those posters who don't like additional information, Miyamoto is right about the need for video games to mature more. However, he of all people should understand that those types of AAA games are being made now because an appetite has been shown for them. Did we forget how Nintendo owners also wanted games like Destiny, or more features for Splinter Cell, AC and Batman Arkham City? They've shown a desire for these "violent games" just like anyone else.

Miyamoto should know that platformers once ruled and that was what was being made across studios. Things have changed today and studios make the kinds of games that sell the most, and I don't see Nintendo being that different. Miyamoto should be able to see that Nintendo themselves is staying rather safe with Captain Toad and other 2D Platformers. A high-budget AAA Star Fox game with an enjoyable Pixar-like storyline would be cool. But a more simple Captain Toad and that wooly Yoshi thing is safer, and that's why we got that instead of a grandiose Metroid or Star Fox game with epic storylines, acting and lavish production qualities (not that small Star Fox game he announced).

Nintendo along with other devs need to step out a little further. His criticism about other devs is valid, but it also applies to his own company.

#78 Posted by Bigboi500 (29053 posts) -
#79 Posted by nini200 (9446 posts) -

@clone01 said:

You need a hobby, dude. Might I suggest gaming?

He unfortunately can't at the moment. He bought a PS4

#80 Posted by GreySeal9 (23974 posts) -

@nini200 said:

@clone01 said:

You need a hobby, dude. Might I suggest gaming?

He unfortunately can't at the moment. He bought a PS4

lol

#81 Posted by Shinobishyguy (22346 posts) -

Captain toad is a platformer now?

What the shit

#82 Posted by -Damien- (5209 posts) -

Just when I was about to start liking nintendo, they're back to their arrogant stance again

#83 Posted by Speak_Low (832 posts) -

Still zero response to the graph or numbers, even though they looked at it. Just like I thought.

Simple visuals make them inarticulate.

#85 Posted by Shinobishyguy (22346 posts) -

@speak_low: all I got out of that graph was nintendo makes less shooters than the others(no shit captain obvious).

Are you looking for some sort of medal?

#86 Posted by svaubel (2436 posts) -

Its not arrogance when its true.

This.

E3 would have been a complete snooze-fest if not for nintendo. At least they showed actual gameplay rather than trailers that are completely misleading about how a game actually is.

#87 Posted by yokofox33 (29181 posts) -

Good stuff.

#88 Edited by Speak_Low (832 posts) -

@Shinobishyguy said:

@speak_low: all I got out of that graph was nintendo makes less shooters than the others(no shit captain obvious).

Are you looking for some sort of medal?

The graph showed that Sony and MS had a lot more games to show, and Nintendo only had 12 (not bad, but that's far less than the competition). Stab number one into conventional Nintendo (and fan) thinking. Miyamoto is right, but the graph gives better context and shows that he has not considered or mentioned this crucial part to the Investors.

Considering the fact that third-party sells better on Sony and MS consoles (fact), and the consoles themselves are selling better, and that TPS/FPS and open-world/MP genres and games with real settings sell the best right now, that means it makes sense we'd see LOTS of those games being made. Who here is going to disagree with that, stand up ------------

------ HMMMMM, just like I thought. No one.

But I'm also saying that Miyamoto should understand why the most expensive AAA games are trying to appease the biggest spending audience right now. He's been there and understands profit motivations like anyone else. But I'm also agreeing with him that, as a whole, the industry could try to explore new things, finding ways to improve the medium. And this great endeavor would include Nintendo, just as he said.

If all you got out of these posts is "nintendo makes less shooters" than you, honestly, need to get real. Me and others have typed out these points 2-3 times already, and it keeps getting ignored. Is the fact that I'm somewhat agreeing with Miyamoto messing with you and you don't want to acknowledge any part of my previous statements? Are you confused?

And maybe I should adopt your style of response of "no shit captain obvious, do you wanna a medal?" next time I hear Iwata, Reggie and Miyamoto say something, because they repeat a lot of the same banal things in these meetings. Their statements have that Corporate crispness in the language, but not much flavor. Rather dry, and a little boring...

Iwata: "we need to blah blah blah 1st party Nintendo games and we'll hopefully see a Q1 turnaround..."

Me: "no shit captain obvious, do you wanna a medal?"

Reggie: "we need to give gamers fun and unique experiences and we're hopeful that the Holidays can help bring blah blah"

Me: "no shit captain obvious, do you wanna a medal?"

Miyamoto: "we need more innovation and the medium needs to blah blah"

Me: "no shit captain obvious, do you wanna a medal?"

Thanks. System Wars has taught me how to engage more closely with any subject now, using good debate tactics and lines such as "no shit captain obvious do u wanna a medal"

Or "lol didn't read" from some other clowns above....

#89 Edited by Shinobishyguy (22346 posts) -

@speak_low: so you lump in 3rd parties with MS and sony and compare them to a single company's output?

If your trying to make it seem like you're impartial you're doing a shitty job at it

#90 Posted by GreySeal9 (23974 posts) -

@speak_low: all I got out of that graph was nintendo makes less shooters than the others(no shit captain obvious).

Are you looking for some sort of medal?

It does seem like he wants some kind of validation for his posts.

#91 Edited by DonkeyBrains (36 posts) -

So many shooters and people say that the people from Nintendo are the arrogant ones. The only decent looking games outside of Nintendo were Evolve, Sunset Overdrive, and Mortal Kombat. The forum-goers love to say "We have diversity too!" but what do they really have? No Man's Sky didn't show anything other than some colorful cinematics and lackluster air battles. And if you really think Little Big Planet is better than the Nintendo offerings, you haven't tried them. At least Miyamoto is trying to get you to have fun. Sony and Microsoft are just trying to get your money.

#92 Posted by charizard1605 (55283 posts) -

So I'll just leave this here. As you can see, it's all about common misconceptions which desperate people cling on to. It's true that as a proportion of the whole, Nintendo showed far less shooters than the other two who were broadly similar. But as usual, the main point has been missed spectacularly in an attempt to make a silly point and "win" E3 with a bunch of platformers featuring decades old characters. I'll compare them with Sony although I couldv'e just as easily chosen Microsoft.

Sony on it's own had 42 games on show. Half of which are shooters. Want to do the maths? That means 21 games they showed were not shooters. Not including ANY 3rd party multiplats others were showing for their system they did not have on show, the things Nintendo doesn't get near. So to recap, 21 not shooters.

Nintendo had 12 games showed. 12, to save their system. Three quarters were not shooters. Or, 9 in total.

So Nintendo showed 9 non-shooters and Sony showed over double the amount, 21. They just had a fuckton more games to show, a lot of which were shooters because like platforming was the last time Nintendo was cutting edge, it happens to be the most popular genre.

Lazy thinking from the usual suspects.

This graph is disingenous. Why does it club all non shooter game genres together as one?

#93 Edited by Speak_Low (832 posts) -

@Shinobishyguy said:

@speak_low: so you lump in 3rd parties with MS and sony and compare them to a single company's output?

If your trying to make it seem like you're impartial you're doing a shitty job at it

I (and anyone else) would've included every possible third-party game to add to Nintendo's number, but they don't have them. Evolve, Destiny, Rainbow Six, The Division, Dragon Age 3, Witcher 3, Alien Isolation, AC: Unity - I'd throw them all in. But they weren't announced for Wii U and thus not included in these E3 numbers. What the hell can we do about it?

You haven't responded to the other parts I've had to repeat 3-4 times about the industry as a whole, Miyamoto, or the reason why we're seeing so many of these games, so I take it as silent acknowledgement that I made correct points.

My job is done.

#94 Edited by DocSanchez (1474 posts) -

@charizard1605: That's not disingenuous. Disingenuous implies dishonesty.

It is a direct correlation showing exactly the situation and a direct response to opinions like those shown by many here. A lot of criticisms go around about the quantity of shooting games, it was merely one graph out of a few someone made which spells out the facts, good and bad.

The facts are, as a proportion of overall games, shooters make up roughly half of the output of the PS4 and X1. If you're a fan, great, if you're not, bad. But it also shows that numerically the other consoles showed a lot more non shooters than Nintendo, too. It's a response to a very old, laboured criticism. That all Sony and MS have to show are boring grey shooting games. Untrue. They are obscenely popular, because people like them, but in terms of quantity alone, there are more options in other genres on those systems than Nintendo.

The only thing disingenuous are people claiming that all Playstation, Xbox has to offer is shooting games and that only Nintendo shows true innovation or unique experiences.

#95 Posted by santoron (7620 posts) -

@DocSanchez said:

So I'll just leave this here. As you can see, it's all about common misconceptions which desperate people cling on to. It's true that as a proportion of the whole, Nintendo showed far less shooters than the other two who were broadly similar. But as usual, the main point has been missed spectacularly in an attempt to make a silly point and "win" E3 with a bunch of platformers featuring decades old characters. I'll compare them with Sony although I couldv'e just as easily chosen Microsoft.

Sony on it's own had 42 games on show. Half of which are shooters. Want to do the maths? That means 21 games they showed were not shooters. Not including ANY 3rd party multiplats others were showing for their system they did not have on show, the things Nintendo doesn't get near. So to recap, 21 not shooters.

Nintendo had 12 games showed. 12, to save their system. Three quarters were not shooters. Or, 9 in total.

So Nintendo showed 9 non-shooters and Sony showed over double the amount, 21. They just had a fuckton more games to show, a lot of which were shooters because like platforming was the last time Nintendo was cutting edge, it happens to be the most popular genre.

Lazy thinking from the usual suspects.

This graph is disingenous. Why does it club all non shooter game genres together as one?

Disingenuous? In what way? Miyamoto's comments compared the "bloody shooters" of Nintendo's rivals to the "variety of different software" Nintendo showed. The graphs are perfect in such context.

They show Miyamoto was correct, if only barely, that "most" of the games showed by Sony and MS were shooters. But it also points out that they each showed more non-shooter games than games Nintendo showed all together. Both are illuminating points.

#96 Posted by magicalclick (22347 posts) -

I do not see this as arrogance at all. Because Project Spark and LBP isn't the same as high profile gaming league as Nintendo offerings. The only high profile game that competes with Nintendo offering is Sunset Overdrive and the gameplay is still shooter bound. Valiant heart isn't even colorful. Child of light isn't colorful. They are artistic, but, not colorful. They weren't using balanced rainbow pallet. There really isn't anything that competes with Mario platformer, Zelda, and Mario Cart. Especially when they have something similar, it was 3rd party forgettable games. So, I actually agree with him. Sure realistic or even artistic shooters are nice to have, but, I think a lot of people still like to get on the cute side.

#97 Edited by Bigboi500 (29053 posts) -

I do not see this as arrogance at all. Because Project Spark and LBP isn't the same as high profile gaming league as Nintendo offerings. The only high profile game that competes with Nintendo offering is Sunset Overdrive and the gameplay is still shooter bound. Valiant heart isn't even colorful. Child of light isn't colorful. They are artistic, but, not colorful. They weren't using balanced rainbow pallet. There really isn't anything that competes with Mario platformer, Zelda, and Mario Cart. Especially when they have something similar, it was 3rd party forgettable games. So, I actually agree with him. Sure realistic or even artistic shooters are nice to have, but, I think a lot of people still like to get on the cute side.

Well said. There's nothing wrong with enjoying both grey games and colorful ones and everything in-between. He wasn't wrong to point out that the majority of games these days are of the former variety. It's good to see a broad diversity in the market.

#98 Posted by AdrianWerner (27944 posts) -

The ironic thing that outside of maybe Zelda, the Nintendo title was generated the most interest was a Splatoon, which is a shooter :D

#99 Posted by madsnakehhh (14043 posts) -

Oh...another Gue thread...nothing to see here folks.

#100 Posted by nintendoboy16 (26067 posts) -

@-Damien- said:

Just when I was about to start liking nintendo, they're back to their arrogant stance again

Once again, even your precious Sony has been arrogant and cows seem to have slipped past that.