Microsoft Lacks a "Top Tier" Dev

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#51 Posted by Suppaman100 (3946 posts) -

@foxhound_fox said:

Comparing Naughty Dog to Nintendo EAD.

Oh god, my stomach, it hurts.

Indeed, it's an insult to Naughty Dog.

#52 Edited by crimsonman1245 (4253 posts) -

@mrxboxone said:

@Sweenix said:

Nintendo has EAD and Sony has Naughty dog, But honestly, does microsoft have a dev that can even come close?

But sony doesn't have a top tier franchise. Halo is the best selling franchise of last gen by a mile and no franchise brings in the money that halo does.

GT5 outsold any Halo game this gen, and Sony had several 5 million sellers where Microsoft only has 2.

GT-10 million

GOW-5 million

Uncharted-5 million

LBP-5 million

TLOU-5 million

All first party games.

#53 Posted by Vatusus (4698 posts) -

@stereointegrity said:

343 were the first devs to make an actual halo killer

lol this was actually smart

#54 Posted by Blabadon (26654 posts) -

Turn 10 is quite top tier if you ask me. They don't just dominate a genre, they (usually) put boatloads of work into their games as well.

#55 Edited by Joedgabe (5121 posts) -

@ConanTheStoner said:

@Sweenix said:

@ConanTheStoner said:

You could say the same about Sony, really. Unless your definition of top tier is a bit lenient.

I'm talking about Dev not devs, and naughty dog are one of the finest devs out there, so you cant say the same about sony.

When I think top tier, I'm thinking something like top 5 at most. ND has had a couple of flashes in the pan over the years and are certainly poised to become a formidable power-house going forward, but I just don't view them as top tier right now.

If we're only limiting this to the scope of 1st party devs, then sure.

What nintendo developer you would put at top 5 ? I mean not to offend but making a game with little to no scrips automatically tosses them at lacking something other developers have. Plus they do recycle quite often, even their newer games or reincarnation of their regular franchises can't help but to sweep from older incarnations quite often.

#56 Posted by Blabadon (26654 posts) -

@Vatusus said:

@stereointegrity said:

343 were the first devs to make an actual halo killer

lol this was actually smart

Indeed, holy shit I laughed

#57 Posted by Vatusus (4698 posts) -
@foxhound_fox said:

@hoosier7 said:

Naughty Dog have produced high quality titles for three generations now [...]

Wut?

  • Crash Bandicoot
  • Jak & Daxter
  • Uncharted
  • The Last of Us

High production values and critical acclaim does not a good game make.

uh? They ARE good games. And critical acclaim MEANS good games. Your own opinion is a whole another matter that isnt called in here and is pretty much worthless in the bigger spectrum of things. I also think Valve games are overrated but I wont say they arent among the best devs out there cause clearly, in many gamers and critics minds, they are

#58 Posted by Blabadon (26654 posts) -

@Vatusus said:And critical acclaim MEANS good games.

No

#59 Posted by Vatusus (4698 posts) -
@mrxboxone said:

@Sweenix said:

Nintendo has EAD and Sony has Naughty dog, But honestly, does microsoft have a dev that can even come close?

But sony doesn't have a top tier franchise. Halo is the best selling franchise of last gen by a mile and no franchise brings in the money that halo does.

1st. I think you mean exclusive franchise cause there are a LOT of 3rd party franchises that make more money on ONE platform alone than Halo. CoD for ex sold more on Xbox 360 alone than Halo.

2nd. Even when counting only exclusive franchises Halo wasnt the best selling last gen, Mario was.

3rd. Besides Mario, Halo was probably the most milked exclusive franchise last gen so "selling more" was not really a hard feat to do...

#60 Posted by Vatusus (4698 posts) -

@Blabadon said:

Turn 10 is quite top tier if you ask me. They don't just dominate a genre, they (usually) put boatloads of work into their games as well.

What do you mean dominate? When it comes to sales and popularity GT is above it, when it comes to quality and critical acclaim there are several simulators on PC better than Forza. They dominate nothing if you ask me

#61 Posted by Blabadon (26654 posts) -

@Vatusus said:

@Blabadon said:

Turn 10 is quite top tier if you ask me. They don't just dominate a genre, they (usually) put boatloads of work into their games as well.

What do you mean dominate? When it comes to sales and popularity GT is above it, when it comes to quality and critical acclaim there are several simulators on PC better than Forza. They dominate nothing if you ask me

Eh, fair enough. Dominate was probably too strong a word.

I will say that as for games that have universal appeal, acclaim, and sales, Turn 10 is one that constantly delivers and quite near the higher end of the racing sim genre each time. Granted, I've only played Horizon which I wasn't too big a fan of, but it was still fun.

#62 Posted by PrincessGomez92 (3616 posts) -

343. They did make that masterpiece, Halo 4.

#63 Posted by PAL360 (26939 posts) -

Turn10 is amazing.

#64 Edited by stereointegrity (10731 posts) -

@Blabadon said:

@Vatusus said:

@stereointegrity said:

343 were the first devs to make an actual halo killer

lol this was actually smart

Indeed, holy shit I laughed

#65 Posted by foxhound_fox (88743 posts) -

@Vatusus said:

uh? They ARE good games. And critical acclaim MEANS good games. Your own opinion is a whole another matter that isnt called in here and is pretty much worthless in the bigger spectrum of things. I also think Valve games are overrated but I wont say they arent among the best devs out there cause clearly, in many gamers and critics minds, they are

So you are incapable of making and supporting your own opinion. Okay.

I think Naughty Dog get by on a lot of acclaim that is highly unfounded. Most of their games are 6-8's at best, not 9-10's like everyone else claims. People these days are easily impressed with flashy visuals and exciting set pieces. But you know what? Their mechanics are lacking (TLOU notwithstanding as I have not played it). Gears of War puts mechanics first (it still isn't a 9 game though) while the Uncharted games put set-pieces first.

#66 Edited by nhh18 (6538 posts) -

People for some reason like to discredit naughty dog for what they have done this genearation. If you don't believe that uncharted 2 changed video game industry similar to call of duty 4 and gears of war, you are blind. You could see uncharted 2 influence such as dynamic dialgoue, cinematic moments that are now action/rpg/sandbox game. GTA V, Assassin Creed, Tomb Raider, Bioshock infinite, almost every game after uncharted 2 literally copied aspects from that game. Gears of war and uncharted 2 were two games where you could see the influence it had on other games. Then they created last of us, which won game of the year on most sites. Sold 3.4 million in three weeks (we don't know where the sales are but we do know that PAL it is still selling well and google trends has it around 1/6 as many searches as it was released meaning it is selling well). People for some reason like to discredit naughty dog for their achievements. They are elite. They created one of the biggest ips of all time (crash bandicoot), they created a new massive ip (the last of us) which I have no idea how big it is. But it is massive. Bigger than god of war.

Blizzard, Valve, Naughty Dog, Bungie (destiny will bomb since it looks awful), Bethsesda, and Rockstar. THese are the 6 elite western developers.

#67 Posted by PinkieWinkie (1373 posts) -

@foxhound_fox: 6-8's? Lol. Good thing your opinion means jack shit in this world then.

#68 Posted by foxhound_fox (88743 posts) -

@PinkieWinkie said:

@foxhound_fox: 6-8's? Lol. Good thing your opinion means jack shit in this world then.

It means just as much jack shit as anyone else's. I hate the idea of people getting paid to write their opinions on the internet. It's sad that there is actually money in it.

#69 Posted by PinkieWinkie (1373 posts) -

@foxhound_fox: millions of critics/consumers> you.

#70 Posted by cainetao11 (17748 posts) -

@challenger_155 said:

Microsoft still has 343 Industries, and I gotta say I enjoyed the last Halo, but aside from that, they are lacking a top-tier dev.

I agree. But among all the "credible" analysts here Halo 4 was meh or bad, and therefore 343i is bad. You'd think with all that knowledge, posters would be making millions making AAAA after AAAA.

#71 Posted by DarkLink77 (31697 posts) -

@nhh18 said:

@treedoor said:

@nhh18 said:

People think that naughty dog isn't elite. They just created the biggest new ip of this gen. Unlike uncharted, there is data that backs up that this game has sold tons. A million in its first month. 300k the next month. It was top 10 in every pal for 3 months. It is a super franchise. I wonder how much it sold. It must be at the 5-6 million. With ps4 release it will be at 8 million. They literally created a halo. Uncharted was never a big franchise but the last of us is a huge franchise. I can't imagine seeing the next title not selling 8 million.

Selling 5-6 million does not make it the "biggest new ip of this gen". Not even close.

With used sales it is even higher. Last of us is the first big ip that doesn't have cars in it that sells tons. WIth the ps4 version it will sell 8 million. Like I said, last of us is probably the biggest ip outside of red dead redemption this generation . Quite an accomplishment in my opinion. Naughty Dog is a brand name because of last of us. The same way bungie was because of halo.

Um... Gears of War?

Also, Red Dead isn't a new IP.

#72 Posted by DarkLink77 (31697 posts) -

Naughty Dog isn't an elite studio. They are 2 for 4 for standout games this gen, and that's if you count Uncharted 2, which I don't, as it is merely good.

You have to do a hell of a lot better than that to be an elite studio.

#73 Posted by juarbles (801 posts) -

Their studios are as mediocre as their fans.

#74 Edited by KratosYOLOSwag (679 posts) -

It's pretty well known that MS has the weakest 1st party.

Naughty Dog is where all the top devs in the industry wish they worked. Meanwhile people are leaving 343i.

#75 Edited by nhh18 (6538 posts) -

@DarkLink77 said:

@nhh18 said:

@treedoor said:

@nhh18 said:

People think that naughty dog isn't elite. They just created the biggest new ip of this gen. Unlike uncharted, there is data that backs up that this game has sold tons. A million in its first month. 300k the next month. It was top 10 in every pal for 3 months. It is a super franchise. I wonder how much it sold. It must be at the 5-6 million. With ps4 release it will be at 8 million. They literally created a halo. Uncharted was never a big franchise but the last of us is a huge franchise. I can't imagine seeing the next title not selling 8 million.

Selling 5-6 million does not make it the "biggest new ip of this gen". Not even close.

With used sales it is even higher. Last of us is the first big ip that doesn't have cars in it that sells tons. WIth the ps4 version it will sell 8 million. Like I said, last of us is probably the biggest ip outside of red dead redemption this generation . Quite an accomplishment in my opinion. Naughty Dog is a brand name because of last of us. The same way bungie was because of halo.

Um... Gears of War?

Also, Red Dead isn't a new IP.

Actually I forgot about wii sports, and wii fit. Those two games are bigger ips. But they probably don't have lasting power. Red Dead Redemption has nothing to do with the original except name only. It is kind of like spyro skylanders and spyro. Also, last of us wlil definitely reach 8 million mark or close to it making it one of the biggest ips. I have no doubt in my mind since it is still selling and they haven't made the remake which would sell a couple million on ps4. 8 million is where it will probably end up. Making it a monster ip.

#76 Edited by killzowned24 (7345 posts) -

@DarkLink77 said:

Naughty Dog isn't an elite studio. They are 2 for 4 for standout games this gen, and that's if you count Uncharted 2, which I don't, as it is merely good.

You have to do a hell of a lot better than that to be an elite studio.

LOL,

ND brings goty and graphics kings, they are as elite as you can get.

And yeah, MS don't have jack. Actually they take top devs like Rare and destroy them.

#77 Edited by MBirdy88 (8330 posts) -

@Sweenix said:

@ConanTheStoner said:

You could say the same about Sony, really. Unless your definition of top tier is a bit lenient.

I'm talking about Dev not devs, and naughty dog are one of the finest devs out there, so you cant say the same about sony.

if you like 10 hour linear graphics whoring poor gunplay shooter games. naughty dog made better games years ago.

#78 Posted by 2Chalupas (5157 posts) -

@hrt_rulz01 said:

They have 343i, Turn 10, Rare, Lionhead etc. Whether they're "top tier" is a matter of opinion I guess. I rate them highly.

Rare and Lionhead? LOL. These studios are a joke now.

343 is certainly a "big budget" dev, but i'm not sure they are top tier. So far they've produced solid big budget games, but they better have. I wouldn't anoint them top tier for being able to take 100's of millions of dollars, an established billion $ franchise, and do nothing but turn out a a so-so sequel and HD remasters. They cannot be top teir until the either create a new AAA franchise, or at least completely reinvent Halo to be their own thing.

Turn 10 was solid last gen. But it seems even they got a bit lazy, and their start to this gen was a bit rushed. So while they WERE top tier, they need to prove they aren't slipping.

#79 Posted by Chozofication (2932 posts) -

They had one, till they killed it. Guess...

#80 Posted by clr84651 (5487 posts) -

@ConanTheStoner said:

You could say the same about Sony, really. Unless your definition of top tier is a bit lenient.

Naughty Dog consistently produces great games. The Last of Us just won GotY. Uncharted is the best graphical achievement of last gen. All their games review 9+ every time. Calling them top tier isn't in the least bit lenient.

#81 Posted by DarkLink77 (31697 posts) -

@killzowned24 said:

@DarkLink77 said:

Naughty Dog isn't an elite studio. They are 2 for 4 for standout games this gen, and that's if you count Uncharted 2, which I don't, as it is merely good.

You have to do a hell of a lot better than that to be an elite studio.

LOL,

ND brings goty and graphics kings, they are as elite as you can get.

And yeah, MS don't have jack. Actually they take top devs like Rare and destroy them.

Sure, they bring graphics kings. If you forget that Crytek and PC gaming exist.

Like I said, 2 for 4. That isn't elite. Elite requires consistency.

#82 Posted by killzowned24 (7345 posts) -

@DarkLink77 said:

@killzowned24 said:

@DarkLink77 said:

Naughty Dog isn't an elite studio. They are 2 for 4 for standout games this gen, and that's if you count Uncharted 2, which I don't, as it is merely good.

You have to do a hell of a lot better than that to be an elite studio.

LOL,

ND brings goty and graphics kings, they are as elite as you can get.

And yeah, MS don't have jack. Actually they take top devs like Rare and destroy them.

Sure, they bring graphics kings. If you forget that Crytek and PC gaming exist.

Like I said, 2 for 4. That isn't elite. Elite requires consistency.

why are you bringing up pc? This is a $200 console ffs! Its last 3 games have a score over 90 at metacritic and each has goty at places. That is consistent.

#83 Edited by Vatusus (4698 posts) -

@Blabadon said:

@Vatusus said:And critical acclaim MEANS good games.

No

Yes. It may not be of your liking but a unanimously high rated game means its a good one, unless you're one of those conspiracy lunatics with tin foiled hats that believe the all industry is biased and paid under the desk...

#84 Edited by BlessedChill (676 posts) -

They have Rare...........

#85 Edited by Vatusus (4698 posts) -

@foxhound_fox said:

@Vatusus said:

uh? They ARE good games. And critical acclaim MEANS good games. Your own opinion is a whole another matter that isnt called in here and is pretty much worthless in the bigger spectrum of things. I also think Valve games are overrated but I wont say they arent among the best devs out there cause clearly, in many gamers and critics minds, they are

So you are incapable of making and supporting your own opinion. Okay.

I think Naughty Dog get by on a lot of acclaim that is highly unfounded. Most of their games are 6-8's at best, not 9-10's like everyone else claims. People these days are easily impressed with flashy visuals and exciting set pieces. But you know what? Their mechanics are lacking (TLOU notwithstanding as I have not played it). Gears of War puts mechanics first (it still isn't a 9 game though) while the Uncharted games put set-pieces first.

Hum, what? What did tell you I dont have an opinion on my own when I just told you Valve is overrated imo? Want me to support it? Ok, valve is only exceptional at storytelling. Their games are basic and repetitive and their artsyle is atrocious.

Now, the real difference between you and me is that I aknowledge my opinion on the matter is worthless when the industry has given both Valve and ND high praise that no random opinion on a internet forum can change. ND created one of the highest rated and comercially successfull franchises last gen with Uncharted, it created one of the highest praised games and to many "game of the gen" with TLOU. The generation before it created two of the most iconic characters of the PS2 era with Jak&Daxter and in the gen before it created another iconic character in gaming with Crash Bandicoot. If thats not enough to not be among the industries elite, I dont know what it is. Again, your opinion is worthless

#86 Posted by LJS9502_basic (151473 posts) -

@BlessedChill said:

They have Rare...........

Hahahahahaha....

#87 Posted by Blabadon (26654 posts) -

@Vatusus said:

@Blabadon said:

@Vatusus said:And critical acclaim MEANS good games.

No

Yes. It may not be of your liking but a unanimously high rated game means its a good one, unless you're one of those conspiracy lunatics with tin foiled hats that believe the all industry is biased and paid under the desk...

No, it doesn't.

Nothing makes a game good except for my opinion of it, then I may deem it as good. Acclaimed is one word, good is another. Your reliance on others opinion for the subjective quality of a game sounds quite petty really.

#88 Posted by foxhound_fox (88743 posts) -

@PinkieWinkie said:

@foxhound_fox: millions of critics/consumers> you.

Argumentum ad populum.

#89 Edited by PyratRum (561 posts) -

It's kinda funny to see people completely dismiss Naughty Dog despite the fact that they've had 3 top tier games this gen, both critically and commercially.

-Uncharted 2 swept the GOTY awards in 2009
-Uncharted 3 has 92% on Metacritic and won a shit ton of GOTYs
-The Last of Us, a new IP at the end of the gen, won the most GOTYs by a considerable margin despite stiff competition from both GTA V and Bioshock Infinite

Now I'm not saying ND are the end all be all of developers but give credit where credit is due. These guys have been pumping out consistently great titles for Sony since the PS1.

Ya'll need stop with this hipster shit.

#90 Posted by Vatusus (4698 posts) -

@Blabadon said:

@Vatusus said:

@Blabadon said:

@Vatusus said:And critical acclaim MEANS good games.

No

Yes. It may not be of your liking but a unanimously high rated game means its a good one, unless you're one of those conspiracy lunatics with tin foiled hats that believe the all industry is biased and paid under the desk...

Acclaimed is one word, good is another.

I give it to you you're right with this sentence.

#91 Posted by Floppy_Jim (25771 posts) -

@pyratrum said:

It's kinda funny to see people completely dismiss Naughty Dog despite the fact that they've had 3 top tier games this gen, both critically and commercially.

-Uncharted 2 swept the GOTY awards in 2009

-Uncharted 3 has 92% on Metacritic and won a shit ton of GOTYs

-The Last of Us, a new IP at the end of the gen, won the most GOTYs by a considerable margin despite stiff competition from both GTA V and Bioshock Infinite

Now I'm not saying ND are the end all be all of developers but give credit where credit is due. These guys have been pumping out consistently great titles for Sony since the PS1.

Ya'll need stop with this hipster shit.

Yeah, although Jak II was horrible in places and Uncharted 1 & 3 have their annoyances, they've been very consistent. Not counting their pre-PS1 work.

-

I believe MS are banking on Black Tusk to be the next Bungie.

#92 Posted by PinkieWinkie (1373 posts) -

@foxhound_fox: big words don't make you right, your opinion is yours. However, you are in very small group with your thinking.

#93 Posted by foxhound_fox (88743 posts) -

@PinkieWinkie said:

@foxhound_fox: big words don't make you right, your opinion is yours. However, you are in very small group with your thinking.

Do you know what that logical fallacy is? It means you are arguing that your position is right because a lot of people agree with you. That's a fallacy.

#94 Posted by PinkieWinkie (1373 posts) -

@foxhound_fox: Just showing you have bad taste. Are you the weird one in your high school?

#95 Posted by foxhound_fox (88743 posts) -

@PinkieWinkie said:

@foxhound_fox: Just showing you have bad taste. Are you the weird one in your high school?

Lol, you're a pretty terrible troll.

#96 Edited by PinkieWinkie (1373 posts) -

@foxhound_fox: So yes. Sorry man.

#97 Posted by Jakandsigz (4512 posts) -

They factually have Turn 10 according to MC.

They also still have more FP and 2P and TP studios than everyone else, so it's not like they have to rely on one dev all the time.

#98 Posted by Shielder7 (5152 posts) -

@Sweenix said:

Nintendo has EAD and Sony has Naughty dog, But honestly, does microsoft have a dev that can even come close?

They did until they gutted them all.

#99 Edited by nhh18 (6538 posts) -

@foxhound_fox said:

@PinkieWinkie said:

@foxhound_fox: big words don't make you right, your opinion is yours. However, you are in very small group with your thinking.

Do you know what that logical fallacy is? It means you are arguing that your position is right because a lot of people agree with you. That's a fallacy.

I see you are living in an existential world where nothing is right and anything goes. Nintendo is the worst company ever then! Super Mario galaxy is a 1/10 game. Zelda Skylight sword is 1/10 at best. Sheep have bigger brains than some people here. I've finally figured it out. That is the reason why they challenge reality.

#100 Posted by DarkLink77 (31697 posts) -

@killzowned24 said:

@DarkLink77 said:

@killzowned24 said:

@DarkLink77 said:

Naughty Dog isn't an elite studio. They are 2 for 4 for standout games this gen, and that's if you count Uncharted 2, which I don't, as it is merely good.

You have to do a hell of a lot better than that to be an elite studio.

LOL,

ND brings goty and graphics kings, they are as elite as you can get.

And yeah, MS don't have jack. Actually they take top devs like Rare and destroy them.

Sure, they bring graphics kings. If you forget that Crytek and PC gaming exist.

Like I said, 2 for 4. That isn't elite. Elite requires consistency.

why are you bringing up pc? This is a $200 console ffs! Its last 3 games have a score over 90 at metacritic and each has goty at places. That is consistent.

Crysis 3 on consoles looks better than Naughty Dog's games. It doesn't run as well, but it looks a lot better.

Most people consider Uncharted 3 to be a huge disappointment. I'm not saying they aren't a good studio. They are. They're a great studio. They are not an elite studio yet. They are not Blizzard, Bungie, Rockstar, EPIC, or Nintendo tier yet. Those studios have been putting out games that good for 20 years. Give 'em one more game like The Last of Us or two games as good as Uncharted 2 without another Uncharted 1 or Uncharted 3 in between, and yeah, I'll say they're elite. Not before.