Mercury Stream: The days of 2D Castlevania are gone.

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Avatar image for nintendoboy16
#1 Posted by nintendoboy16 (31377 posts) -

Link

"I think those days (of 2D Castlevania games) are gone, yes. I think hardcore gamers would love to play another 2D Castlevania, but the reality is that it’s a very niche market and Konami really want this series to be mainstream again. We took this direction in order to reach that bigger audience, otherwise we would have carried on with the 2D approach. That’s not to say I don’t think there will ever be another 2D game in the series, it might happen but just not from MercurySteam. When you look at the future on PlayStation 4 and Xbox One, I don’t think people want to play 2D games on those consoles. Core gamers may still want something like that, but there’s an expectation among the wider public for big, epic games." - David Cox, Mercury Stream

Ugh... that is as BS as when Miyamoto said he thought everybody was tired of F-Zero.

Avatar image for R4gn4r0k
#2 Edited by R4gn4r0k (23716 posts) -

Guacamelee says no.

But really, if they feel that making an action game could get a wider appeal and that is what they wanted, how could they say they were wrong? I especially won't, because I love Lords of Shadow and I'm looking forward to the second one.

Also, what ? Miyamoto said everyone was tired of F-Zero ??? Then how come the track design of the new Mario Kart is totally inspired by F-Zero ?!

Avatar image for Boddicker
#3 Posted by Boddicker (4243 posts) -

Bah humbug!!!!!

I really wanted to play another Metroidvania that was not on a handheld.

Avatar image for IamAdorable
#4 Edited by IamAdorable (407 posts) -
@R4gn4r0k said:

Also, what ? Miyamoto said everyone was tired of F-Zero ??? Then how come the track design of the new Mario Kart is totally inspired by F-Zero ?!

Some crazy trolling :p

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#5 Posted by jdc6305 (4250 posts) -

I like 2d games more then 3d games.

Avatar image for Randolph
#6 Edited by Randolph (10542 posts) -

I'm gonna laugh when this game gets a 5 or 6 here, averages not much higher than that on metacritic, and tanks in sales. A downloadable epic high resolution super detailed 2D Metroidvania depicting the battle of 1999 from Castlevania: Aria of Sorrows backstory would be money, and a great return to form.

Avatar image for R4gn4r0k
#7 Posted by R4gn4r0k (23716 posts) -

@IamAdorable said:
@R4gn4r0k said:

Also, what ? Miyamoto said everyone was tired of F-Zero ??? Then how come the track design of the new Mario Kart is totally inspired by F-Zero ?!

Some crazy trolling :p

Nintendo: Nobody is interested in Star Fox anymore

Nintendo: And now, for the next SSB character: Fox McCloud !!!

Avatar image for nintendoboy16
#8 Posted by nintendoboy16 (31377 posts) -

@R4gn4r0k said:

@IamAdorable said:
@R4gn4r0k said:

Also, what ? Miyamoto said everyone was tired of F-Zero ??? Then how come the track design of the new Mario Kart is totally inspired by F-Zero ?!

Some crazy trolling :p

Nintendo: Nobody is interested in Star Fox anymore

Nintendo: And now, for the next SSB character: Fox McCloud !!!

I think there is a major difference between what is popular in Smash Bros and what is popular in their own franchise. Hell, Captain Falcon from F-Zero is more popular in Smash and internet memes than he is in the base franchise.

Avatar image for R4gn4r0k
#9 Edited by R4gn4r0k (23716 posts) -

@nintendoboy16 said:

I think there is a major difference between what is popular in Smash Bros and what is popular in their own franchise. Hell, Captain Falcon from F-Zero is more popular in Smash and internet memes than he is in the base franchise.

No, I'm trying to say that Nintendo should make another Star Fox and F-Zero :P

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#10 Posted by MlauTheDaft (5189 posts) -

Seems like the Metroidvania genre is thriving though.

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#11 Edited by El_Zo1212o (6054 posts) -

2D Castlevania IS dead.

If the only attempts at making them are as weak-kneed and scaled down Mirror of Fate was.

Randolph is exactly right, and I've been saying such ever since the term 'reboot' was applied to the original Lords of Shadow. A return to the original timeline starring Julius in the Battle of 1999 would sell megabucks, as long as it was competently executed.

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#12 Posted by DocSanchez (3579 posts) -

Never say never. There is no point. They can say it's not in the immediate future but everybody knows it wont be the case always.

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#13 Edited by cfisher2833 (2150 posts) -

Well that's stupid. Shadow Complex did fairly well, and I am pretty sure the new Strider game (which is fucking badass) will get decent sales. Maybe it is a niche genre, but it's also a genre that doesn't require a developer/publisher to spend 30 million dollars to make.

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#14 Edited by Alucard_Prime (6954 posts) -

Tricky subject, this guy's job was pretty hard to be honest. To reboot Castlevania, a mostly 2D series, with a few failed 3D attempts already in its rear-view mirror. Myself, being a huge Castlevania fan, and a fan of 2D games and 2D art in general, I can see both sides of the coin here. Obviously my best Castlevania memories are from the 2D iterations like SOTN and Super Castlevania 4, however I actually enjoyed most of the 3D Castlevanias as well, such as the 3D one that came out on the N64.

No way do I agree that 2D is dead, but I can understand why they had to do 3D with this reboot, in order to reach more people. A big, well realized 3-D game is going to get more people's attention these days than a 2D one, I think that's the gist of what he is saying....2D today is more niche than it was before, but that's not to say there is not a market for it. However, in order to reach this cinematic style of the reboot, and provide more character development, get a more epic feel for the game, I understand the 3D choice in Lords of Shadow, and I greatly enjoyed the first game....really looking forward to the next one......Castlevania for me is about the gothic art design, distinct musical style, cool enemy designs, characters, fluid gameplay, etc. , as long as these elements are there I'm good with 3D but in my heart CAstlevania=2D, and hopefully we can still get another nice 2D one in the future.

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#15 Edited by foxhound_fox (95256 posts) -

A niche market is still a market with potential customers, jackass.

Dark Souls proves the Metroivania/Castleroid formula is alive and well, and becoming very popular again. Once people who haven't played Super Metroid or Symphony of the Night start realizing that these games are related to their "God Souls" I can guarantee they'll play them as well.

MercuryStream wants to give up on Castlevania and move on to make something else. I'm glad. A ton of other Castlevania fans who have been underwhelmed with their offerings are glad. I'm sure Konami will keep the namesake alive because recognizable brands with half-decent games are money-makers.

Go ahead, move on to trying to become "the next Naughty Dog" MS. Don't let the castle door hit you on the way out.

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#16 Posted by Crossel777 (6176 posts) -

Yet they made a 2D castlevania and it ended up being mediocre.

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#17 Edited by DJ-Lafleur (35036 posts) -

Well that is a load of poo. Did Mirrors of fate not do that well for them?

I'd totally be up for another Metroidvania. Hell, give me another Castlevania in the vein of Super Castlevania IV.

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#18 Edited by Crossel777 (6176 posts) -

It sickens me that Konami think they can just filter out the old castlevania and pretend it never existed and replace it with this new modern God of Vania.

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#19 Posted by Randolph (10542 posts) -

I honestly thought Lords of Shadow was a good game. It just didn't need to be a Castlevania game. Aside from the main playable character having the last name Belmont, it had nothing in common with the series. As someone above mentioned as well, they probably only think 2D 'Vania is dead because they tried to make one with Mirror of Fate, and it was awful.

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#20 Edited by R4gn4r0k (23716 posts) -

@foxhound_fox said:

A niche market is still a market with potential customers, jackass.

Dark Souls proves the Metroivania/Castleroid formula is alive and well, and becoming very popular again. Once people who haven't played Super Metroid or Symphony of the Night start realizing that these games are related to their "God Souls" I can guarantee they'll play them as well.

MercuryStream wants to give up on Castlevania and move on to make something else. I'm glad. A ton of other Castlevania fans who have been underwhelmed with their offerings are glad. I'm sure Konami will keep the namesake alive because recognizable brands with half-decent games are money-makers.

Go ahead, move on to trying to become "the next Naughty Dog" MS. Don't let the castle door hit you on the way out.

What has MercurySteam done to you ? :S

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#21 Posted by Midnightshade29 (5918 posts) -

@nintendoboy16:

What the hell!!!! I am mad! CV is one of my favorite series, and the ones I liked the most are the metroidvania styled games. In particular Symphony of the night and also simons quest before that. The gba and ds games are good too, just not on the same level of symphony. Why can't they make a new symphony game with that much loot and more, in that style? Hell make it 2.5d , or full 3d I don't care, just stop with the damn god of war/ ninja gaieden style that new cv games are. We have enough action adventure games... we need more loot based rpg metroidvania styled cv, which there is no reason it couldn't be done in 3d. The stupid publishers are clueless on what makes a good CV game..

Why does everything have to be action adventure gow/baynoetta stye? A Symphony of the night action rpg style cv game in 3d would rock, and could be done. Or even a 2.5d like the the PSP game that was just a remake on rondo of blood.. Do it in that 2.5d style but using cv rpg / loot style mechanics.

I hope they replace the cv devs with some that have some damn brains!

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#22 Posted by Midnightshade29 (5918 posts) -

@DJ-Lafleur said:

Well that is a load of poo. Did Mirrors of fate not do that well for them?

I'd totally be up for another Metroidvania. Hell, give me another Castlevania in the vein of Super Castlevania IV.

Mirrors of fate is not metroidvania, with action/rpg system. The reason i didn't buy it and bought every other one is because it was just a god of war baynoetta style done in 2d. I wany symphony of the night style gameplay with rpg elements damn-it. Hell I would settle for another simons quest at this point, just stop with the god of war/bayo/ninja gaiden/dmc crap...we have enough franchises like that, and none besides a few indies that play like metroidvania....ughh.

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#23 Edited by starwolf474 (983 posts) -

That's BS. 2D games are still very popular when done right. Just like at the incredibly high sales of the New Super Mario Bros series; they are selling way more than the 3D Mario games.

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#24 Posted by Midnightshade29 (5918 posts) -

@Randolph said:

I'm gonna laugh when this game gets a 5 or 6 here, averages not much higher than that on metacritic, and tanks in sales. A downloadable epic high resolution super detailed 2D Metroidvania depicting the battle of 1999 from Castlevania: Aria of Sorrows backstory would be money, and a great return to form.

It definatly would, but Komami and this dev would rather listen to the forum trolls who whine about games not being in 3d and with enough explostions. Those young new school gamers who only play games with multiplayer...ughh...

This is also why the last 2d cv game was multiplayer focused and not a singleplayer epic. It had the same look but everything about it screemed multiplayer epeen.... Screw that!!! I want an epic return of symphony style gameplay. Why won't any dev make this?

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#25 Edited by Ghost120x (4849 posts) -

Wrong,they just need to put it on the right platform. A very polished 2d game would sell like hotcakes on 3ds and possibly multiplat with vita. The games shouldn't cost much to make and could be very successful on those platforms.

I'm not sure but strider looks like it is doing pretty well and it is very fun imo. I wouldn't mind seeing a $15 castlevaina game with crisp Hd water paint artstyle on ps4.

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#26 Posted by Midnightshade29 (5918 posts) -

@Ghost120x said:

Wrong,they just need to put it on the right platform. A very polished 2d game would sell like hotcakes on 3ds and possibly multiplat with vita. The games shouldn't cost much to make and could be very successful on those platforms.

I'm not sure but strider looks like it is doing pretty well and it is very fun imo. I wouldn't mind seeing a $15 castlevaina game with crisp Hd water paint artstyle on ps4.

A CV game like how strider is done would rock!! I am loving it, as I was also a fan of the original nes and genesis games..

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#27 Posted by foxhound_fox (95256 posts) -
@R4gn4r0k said:

What has MercurySteam done to you ? :S

Not done justice to what I feel is "Castlevania".

Avatar image for Ghost120x
#28 Posted by Ghost120x (4849 posts) -

@Midnightshade29 said:

@Ghost120x said:

Wrong,they just need to put it on the right platform. A very polished 2d game would sell like hotcakes on 3ds and possibly multiplat with vita. The games shouldn't cost much to make and could be very successful on those platforms.

I'm not sure but strider looks like it is doing pretty well and it is very fun imo. I wouldn't mind seeing a $15 castlevaina game with crisp Hd water paint artstyle on ps4.

A CV game like how strider is done would rock!! I am loving it, as I was also a fan of the original nes and genesis games..

I know it's awesome. More older games should be remade like this game.

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#29 Edited by Crazyguy105 (9513 posts) -

La-Mulana 2 reached their limit on Kickstarter a while ago, so no. The days of 2D Metroidvanias are not over.

Although we do need another Castlevania in the style of Order of Ecclesia.

Avatar image for R4gn4r0k
#30 Edited by R4gn4r0k (23716 posts) -

@foxhound_fox said:
@R4gn4r0k said:

What has MercurySteam done to you ? :S

Not done justice to what I feel is "Castlevania".

Ok, I certainly understand that. Lots of series getting rebooted these days, and it's bound to feel wrong to some fans.

But can't you understand Konami/MS going in a different direction to get more people to play the series ?

Avatar image for foxhound_fox
#31 Edited by foxhound_fox (95256 posts) -
@R4gn4r0k said:

Ok, I certainly understand that. Lots of series getting rebooted these days, and it's bound to feel wrong to some fans.

But can't you understand Konami/MS going in a different direction to get more people to play the series ?

Why do they need more people to play it? They have a very devoted fanbase already. And why alienate the old fanbase in favour of the new one? Why not appeal to them both? Isn't that the point of rebooting something? To bring the old and new fans together in their love for the franchise?

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#32 Posted by Capitan_Kid (6700 posts) -

Its pretty much true. Unless your name is Mario or Kirby, youre not gonna sell much in the 2D market. Strider might be an exception.

Avatar image for R4gn4r0k
#33 Posted by R4gn4r0k (23716 posts) -

@foxhound_fox said:
@R4gn4r0k said:

Ok, I certainly understand that. Lots of series getting rebooted these days, and it's bound to feel wrong to some fans.

But can't you understand Konami/MS going in a different direction to get more people to play the series ?

Why do they need more people to play it? They have a very devoted fanbase already. And why alienate the old fanbase in favour of the new one? Why not appeal to them both? Isn't that the point of rebooting something? To bring the old and new fans together in their love for the franchise?

Because more people playing would mean more money, and that is what MS and Konami want ? I dunno. Sure, you are right, it shouldn't have alienated fans, but the last Castlevania was still really solid.

I haven't seen many reboots though that were 100% accepted by fans. Sure, that's not an excuse, but it's a fact.

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#34 Posted by foxhound_fox (95256 posts) -

@Capitan_Kid said:

Its pretty much true. Unless your name is Mario or Kirby, youre not gonna sell much in the 2D market. Strider might be an exception.

  • Strider
  • Shadow Complex
  • Guacamelee
  • Outland
  • Dust: An Elysian Tale
  • La-Mulana
  • Lost Winds
  • Muramasa: The Demon Blade
  • Fez
  • Terraria
  • Mark of the Ninja
  • Trine
  • Aquaria
  • Hero, Hero Core
  • Iji
  • Plus all these

Yeah, they haven't gone anywhere.

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#35 Posted by foxhound_fox (95256 posts) -
@R4gn4r0k said:

Because more people playing would mean more money, and that is what MS and Konami want ? I dunno. Sure, you are right, it shouldn't have alienated fans, but the last Castlevania was still really solid.

I haven't seen many reboots though that were 100% accepted by fans. Sure, that's not an excuse, but it's a fact.

Lords of Shadow is the best-selling Castlevania.

And that's a problem.

Because that tells Konami that people want more God of War ripoffs and less of what the fanbase that has been around for decades does. Thankfully MS wants to move on, or they'd be making Lords of Shadow until it flopped commercially.

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#36 Posted by ReadingRainbow4 (18733 posts) -

What a load of shit that is, I guarantee if they made a new castlevania in HD with lovingly created 2d graphics at the level of Symphony of the Night or better there would be interest.

Mercury steam hasn't done that tho, no. Even their 2d representation of the series sucked ass. Konami needs to stop fucking around and get Koji Igarashi back in the game for a major title.

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#37 Posted by nintendoboy16 (31377 posts) -

@ReadingRainbow4 said:

What a load of shit that is, I guarantee if they made a new castlevania in HD with lovingly created 2d graphics at the level of Symphony of the Night or better there would be interest.

Mercury steam hasn't done that tho, no. Even their 2d representation of the series sucked ass. Konami needs to stop fucking around and get Koji Igarashi back in the game for a major title.

Thing is, didn't Igarashi take a back seat after how some later Castlevania games were received? Stuff like Judgment (that fighting game co-developed by Eighting, guys who developed Bloody Roar, Tatsunoko vs Capcom, and some anime/manga based fighters) and Harmony of Despair?

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#38 Posted by ReadingRainbow4 (18733 posts) -

@nintendoboy16 said:

@ReadingRainbow4 said:

What a load of shit that is, I guarantee if they made a new castlevania in HD with lovingly created 2d graphics at the level of Symphony of the Night or better there would be interest.

Mercury steam hasn't done that tho, no. Even their 2d representation of the series sucked ass. Konami needs to stop fucking around and get Koji Igarashi back in the game for a major title.

Thing is, didn't Igarashi take a back seat after how some later Castlevania games were received? Stuff like Judgment (that fighting game co-developed by Eighting, guys who developed Bloody Roar, Tatsunoko vs Capcom, and some anime/manga based fighters) and Harmony of Despair?

Pretty sure he might of, because he's gone dark ever since then.

I do hope he get's the series back and on track.

Here's a pretty good article summarizing my thoughts on mercury steam and how they've handled the franchise.

http://nichegamer.net/2013/08/where-in-the-world-is-koji-igarashi/

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#40 Edited by ReadingRainbow4 (18733 posts) -

Y'know, I think what Keiji Inafune did might be the only way to move forward for these classic developers. Seperate from the parent company, seek outside funding or make a deal with one of the big 3 for a series of games under a new name, but largely the same feel.

I'd welcome IGA to take a stance on Castlevania like this, It's kind of clear Konami doesn't want to budge from this position given how much leeway they've given to Mercury Steam concerning the franchise.

Unrelated but also regarding mega man, Tokuro Fujiwara has also been left to work on shit tier stuff by Capcom. This mans seriously talented he created both ghosts n goblins, strider and is responsible for the early mega man titles along with keiji, he also made freaking Tomba, which was a great game.

Get these legendary developers out of obscurity and back on big projects, like Keiji. Even if they only know how to do one thing, they can do it damned amazingly well. There's nothing wrong with having a specialty especially when you have Developers like mercury steam that outright use every other AAA franchise as their design base and add nothing of their own and somehow lose Castlevania's identity in the process.

Sometimes the old dog still has the best tricks, that's definitely the case here.

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#41 Edited by nini200 (11477 posts) -

Konami needs to go back to their glory days of old. This Kojima-based Konami sucks balls (Outside of Zone of The Enders).

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#42 Posted by R4gn4r0k (23716 posts) -

@foxhound_fox said:

Lords of Shadow is the best-selling Castlevania.

And that's a problem.

Because that tells Konami that people want more God of War ripoffs and less of what the fanbase that has been around for decades does. Thankfully MS wants to move on, or they'd be making Lords of Shadow until it flopped commercially.

I had some pretty weak arguments. But what i meant to say is that: Lords of Shadow was a good game, and it's good that it sold well. It let more people get into the series and it lowered the point of entry a bit. I don't see that as a bad thing. Hell, it brought me into the series.

However, I do see where you are coming from. They could've done the LOS games as a spin off while they kept releasing Castlevania games for the fans. But they didn't.

The thing is, that is Konami's doing and not MS. It's clear that MS is better at creating action-adventure games than 2D style Castlevania games, as we've seen. Konami should've gotten another developer to make Castlevania games in between.

And like you said: LOS 2 will be the last one. Who knows what the future will hold. I don't think 2 games that are a different style is that bad. Perhaps Konami will return to the old style now. And me, as a new fan of Castlevania, will check it out...

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#43 Edited by uninspiredcup (20228 posts) -

Hack N Slash games are cool. This is excellent news.

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#44 Edited by Jebus213 (8977 posts) -
@starwolf474 said:

That's BS. 2D games are still very popular when done right. Just like at the incredibly high sales of the New Super Mario Bros series; they are selling way more than the 3D Mario games.

Just take a look at what type of game you're talking about.

Mario is easily one of the most identifiable games and considered one of best 2D platformers in gaming.

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#45 Edited by raging_user (467 posts) -

I remember the first Lords of Shadow coming with an HD version of Symphony of the Night, if people still gave a shit about SOTN or just the 2d aspect in general, lords of shadow 1 would have sold like hotcakes due to the fact it had the SOTN code. Too many people clinging on to the nostalgia factor.

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#46 Posted by juarbles (801 posts) -

Then Castlevania is gone. He probably got confused and was talking about xboners because PS4 is filled with many core gamers. Anyways this is the consequence of having the xbone and xboners in the industry.

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#47 Posted by locopatho (22629 posts) -

Fair enough. If that's how they want to evolve the series. I mean isn't there like half a dozen or more 2D Castlevanias now? I'd like to play more (good) 3D ones.

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#48 Edited by Capitan_Kid (6700 posts) -

@foxhound_fox: A bunch of handheld/indie games doesnt change the fact that 2d platformers are niche. Look at how fast the new Rayman games dropped in price or the fact that they didnt even sell for full price to begin with.

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#49 Edited by foxhound_fox (95256 posts) -

@Capitan_Kid said:

@foxhound_fox: A bunch of handheld/indie games doesnt change the fact that 2d platformers are niche. Look at how fast the new Rayman games dropped in price or the fact that they didnt even sell for full price to begin with.

Didn't say they weren't niche. I was countering the point that they don't exist anymore the other poster made.

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#50 Posted by AcidTango (1159 posts) -

I only liked the good old plain 2D Castlevania games. Never got into the 3D ones and yes even the Metroidvania style ether. Super Castlevania IV is still my favorite in the series