Kotaku: We Were Wrong About Handheld Gaming

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#51 Edited by inb4uall (5806 posts) -

@musicalmac: No I just thought it was funny. You see, that sounds very similar to the buttons vs touchscreen argument we hear again and again in the tablets/phones vs handhelds argument.

#52 Posted by musicalmac (23036 posts) -

@inb4uall said:

@musicalmac: No I just thought it was funny. You see, that sounds very similar to the buttons vs touchscreen argument we hear again and again in the tablets/phones vs handhelds argument.

Heh, well in this case it is apples to apples (no pun, promise), and scientifically speaking (after a study) it was proven that latency between the actual touch and the response of the device was noticeably higher on android devices than it was on iOS devices (Windows mobile devices were in the middle somewhere, closer to iOS).

To say that the 3DS and Vita are still good because eventually the author got sick of his Nexus 7 is a silly way to make a conclusion. I think he would have come to that conclusion regardless of what he had chosen to use instead of handheld gaming devices, but it would have taken a whole lot longer on the iPad with games like Xcom, Baldur's Gate 2, MtG Duels of the Plainswalkers 2013/2014, Limbo, The Walking Dead, GTA 3/Vice City/San Andreas, Max Payne, Bastion, etc.

Many of those titles aren't widely available for android tablets, and many of those games would be terrible to play with noticeably laggy touch controls to the point of being largely unplayable. Examples below, GS3 vs iPhone 5 on the same game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKng-U1DoP8

#53 Posted by KittenNose (531 posts) -

@PurpleMan5000 said:
@kittennose said:

Hand held gaming is a sucky replacement most people only indulge when they don't have access to a proper gaming system, usually because they are not at home. It is also a cesspit of the most predatory business practices in gaming.

That said, it is also the future of gaming. Unless this console generation only lasts three years, you will have tablets out with more power then the PS4 long before this generation is done. It only takes an HDMI port and a Bluetooth controller to turn such a tablet into a device that can provide a console experience. The major difference being you can pick the exact same device and play it while you are away from home. Playstation pushing the concept of streaming games is actually going to help this trend develop faster.

Unless Gears of BattleDuty seventeen wants you to pay a dollar to avoid a fifteen minute timer to join the next multiplayer game, there really isn't away to avoid this. Particularly since next gen consoles have all of the long lamented downsides of PC gaming. Heck some of the biggest games on last gen consoles required hardware that wasn't sold with all consoles, installations, waiting around for day one updates, and more waiting for developers to actually make the game work.

Tablet gaming will never replace consoles and handhelds unless people start showing a willingness to pay more than $5-$10 for a game.

Mobile gaming will replace console gaming when you can purchase Gears of Battleduty seventeen on your 1,4,PC, or tablet, and the tablet version is on par or better then the PS version. The "powerful" console is three months old and it's graphics card is already meh by last year's standards. Your phone might have more power then a PS4 in 4 years. In 2018 "Meh" by 2013 standards isn't much of a bar to hop over.

#54 Posted by 2Chalupas (5163 posts) -

@Salt_The_Fries said:

who the funk puts a wallet in his/her back pocket?

Pretty sure most adult males put their wallet in a back pocket.

I'll just assume you put yours in a man-purse.

#55 Edited by inb4uall (5806 posts) -

@musicalmac said:

@inb4uall said:

@musicalmac: No I just thought it was funny. You see, that sounds very similar to the buttons vs touchscreen argument we hear again and again in the tablets/phones vs handhelds argument.

Heh, well in this case it is apples to apples (no pun, promise), and scientifically speaking (after a study) it was proven that latency between the actual touch and the response of the device was noticeably higher on android devices than it was on iOS devices (Windows mobile devices were in the middle somewhere, closer to iOS).

To say that the 3DS and Vita are still good because eventually the author got sick of his Nexus 7 is a silly way to make a conclusion. I think he would have come to that conclusion regardless of what he had chosen to use instead of handheld gaming devices, but it would have taken a whole lot longer on the iPad with games like Xcom, Baldur's Gate 2, MtG Duels of the Plainswalkers 2013/2014, Limbo, The Walking Dead, GTA 3/Vice City/San Andreas, Max Payne, Bastion, etc.

Many of those titles aren't widely available for android tablets, and many of those games would be terrible to play with noticeably laggy touch controls to the point of being largely unplayable. Examples below, GS3 vs iPhone 5 on the same game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKng-U1DoP8

I'm really not sure what to say? the videos show a guy abusing knifing in iphone multiplayer and a guy who looks like he's doing a tutorial story mission for the first time. The two videos were obviously made by different people too. What point are you trying to make with these videos Mac? Personally both people looked to be having significant problems controlling this game. Judging from this I'd say you're better off with something like killzone mercenaries if you are looking for a shooter fix on the go.

#56 Posted by charizard1605 (58304 posts) -

@blue_hazy_basic said:

@charizard1605 said:

@blue_hazy_basic said:

@Jakandsigz said:

Charizard, comparing libraries of two handhelds that came out heading towards 2.2 years, to consoles that release a couple months ago. Flawless logic.

The funny thing? I'd still take those few month old new gen consoles libraries over the cesspool that is handheld gaming.

Cesspool? Please explain.

Pretty simple, almost all hand held games are terrible.

But you are very, very wrong

#57 Posted by freedomfreak (41036 posts) -

I only use my 3DS for Steampunk World these days. I wonder what's coming in 2014. 2013 had some fun games, but I haven't heard too much about 2014.

#58 Edited by musicalmac (23036 posts) -

@inb4uall said:

I'm really not sure what to say? the videos show a guy abusing knifing in iphone multiplayer and a guy who looks like he's doing a tutorial story mission for the first time. The two videos were obviously made by different people too. What point are you trying to make with these videos Mac? Personally both people looked to be having significant problems controlling this game. Judging from this I'd say you're better off with something like killzone mercenaries if you are looking for a shooter fix on the go.

I wouldn't disagree. My only point was that gaming on an android tablet is likely going to be far less satisfying than gaming on an iPad, for the reasons I've laid out. Touch-screen gaming is possible, but it's not as good as what you get with buttons.

Really sad that the Vita doesn't have a ton of great shooters, having two sticks is such a huge advantage.

EDIT: Also try to be less cynical when applying a critical eye to things you're presented with.

#59 Posted by KungfuKitten (21143 posts) -

@FoxbatAlpha said:

Kotaku is wrong about a lot.

SW is wrong about more.

#60 Posted by anab0lic (273 posts) -
@inb4uall said:

@Zassimick said:

Looking back, I found myself disappointed with the DS and PSP. The DS had quickly become a Pokémon machine for me and the PSP had a really lackluster life cycle save for a couple games. Overall I have to say I was disappointed.

But the 3DS and Vita? Miles better. Each have solid games that take advantage of the hardware's power, and each offer unique experiences. The games are solid and I'm hopeful that Nintendo will continue pushing out good games and that Sony will keep offering unique titles through PS+ (still only purchased one retail game for the thing, though I've got a few PS Classics on it as well.)

While you are certainly entitled to your opinion, the fact that you let the DS become a pokemon machine is your fault.

The DS had an absolutely fantastic library.

As for the PSP I have found plenty of games that made the PSP worth my money. That's before you take into account that with an hour of your time at most you can turn a PSP and a decent sized memory card into the best vintage gaming handheld ever.

Not quite, the best SNES games dont emulate too well on it. :(

#61 Posted by inb4uall (5806 posts) -

@anab0lic said:
@inb4uall said:

@Zassimick said:

Looking back, I found myself disappointed with the DS and PSP. The DS had quickly become a Pokémon machine for me and the PSP had a really lackluster life cycle save for a couple games. Overall I have to say I was disappointed.

But the 3DS and Vita? Miles better. Each have solid games that take advantage of the hardware's power, and each offer unique experiences. The games are solid and I'm hopeful that Nintendo will continue pushing out good games and that Sony will keep offering unique titles through PS+ (still only purchased one retail game for the thing, though I've got a few PS Classics on it as well.)

While you are certainly entitled to your opinion, the fact that you let the DS become a pokemon machine is your fault.

The DS had an absolutely fantastic library.

As for the PSP I have found plenty of games that made the PSP worth my money. That's before you take into account that with an hour of your time at most you can turn a PSP and a decent sized memory card into the best vintage gaming handheld ever.

Not quite, the best SNES games dont emulate too well on it. :(

I don't believe we are allowed to discuss it here. You my have the wrong version of the emulator though. Which games are you having trouble with?

#62 Edited by SEANMCAD (5464 posts) -

I have no interest in handheld gaming.

Sometimes I feel like I am the only person on the planet who is not interest in lowering the technology bar

#63 Posted by topgunmv (10249 posts) -

@musicalmac said:

@inb4uall said:

@musicalmac: No I just thought it was funny. You see, that sounds very similar to the buttons vs touchscreen argument we hear again and again in the tablets/phones vs handhelds argument.

Heh, well in this case it is apples to apples (no pun, promise), and scientifically speaking (after a study) it was proven that latency between the actual touch and the response of the device was noticeably higher on android devices than it was on iOS devices (Windows mobile devices were in the middle somewhere, closer to iOS).

To say that the 3DS and Vita are still good because eventually the author got sick of his Nexus 7 is a silly way to make a conclusion. I think he would have come to that conclusion regardless of what he had chosen to use instead of handheld gaming devices, but it would have taken a whole lot longer on the iPad with games like Xcom, Baldur's Gate 2, MtG Duels of the Plainswalkers 2013/2014, Limbo, The Walking Dead, GTA 3/Vice City/San Andreas, Max Payne, Bastion, etc.

Many of those titles aren't widely available for android tablets, and many of those games would be terrible to play with noticeably laggy touch controls to the point of being largely unplayable. Examples below, GS3 vs iPhone 5 on the same game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKng-U1DoP8

You're comparing a phone released in the spring to one released in the fall. Months in mobile are like years in consoles.

#64 Edited by charizard1605 (58304 posts) -

@topgunmv said:

@musicalmac said:

@inb4uall said:

@musicalmac: No I just thought it was funny. You see, that sounds very similar to the buttons vs touchscreen argument we hear again and again in the tablets/phones vs handhelds argument.

Heh, well in this case it is apples to apples (no pun, promise), and scientifically speaking (after a study) it was proven that latency between the actual touch and the response of the device was noticeably higher on android devices than it was on iOS devices (Windows mobile devices were in the middle somewhere, closer to iOS).

To say that the 3DS and Vita are still good because eventually the author got sick of his Nexus 7 is a silly way to make a conclusion. I think he would have come to that conclusion regardless of what he had chosen to use instead of handheld gaming devices, but it would have taken a whole lot longer on the iPad with games like Xcom, Baldur's Gate 2, MtG Duels of the Plainswalkers 2013/2014, Limbo, The Walking Dead, GTA 3/Vice City/San Andreas, Max Payne, Bastion, etc.

Many of those titles aren't widely available for android tablets, and many of those games would be terrible to play with noticeably laggy touch controls to the point of being largely unplayable. Examples below, GS3 vs iPhone 5 on the same game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKng-U1DoP8

You're comparing a phone released in the spring to one released in the fall. Months in mobile are like years in consoles.

I'm actually one of the bigger Android proponents around, but I am sorry, this is a bullshit excuse you are making. He is making the fairest comparison that he can- he is using the flagship iOS phone and comparing it with the flagship Android phone.

I also want to point out, the flagship Android phone is evenly, if not higher, specced than the iOS phone in this case. The game running poorly on it is just because of a general lack of optimization, not just for that game specifically, but because Android itself is not as optimized (obviously) as iOS or especially Windows Phone are.

#65 Posted by topgunmv (10249 posts) -

@charizard1605 said:

@topgunmv said:

@musicalmac said:

@inb4uall said:

@musicalmac: No I just thought it was funny. You see, that sounds very similar to the buttons vs touchscreen argument we hear again and again in the tablets/phones vs handhelds argument.

Heh, well in this case it is apples to apples (no pun, promise), and scientifically speaking (after a study) it was proven that latency between the actual touch and the response of the device was noticeably higher on android devices than it was on iOS devices (Windows mobile devices were in the middle somewhere, closer to iOS).

To say that the 3DS and Vita are still good because eventually the author got sick of his Nexus 7 is a silly way to make a conclusion. I think he would have come to that conclusion regardless of what he had chosen to use instead of handheld gaming devices, but it would have taken a whole lot longer on the iPad with games like Xcom, Baldur's Gate 2, MtG Duels of the Plainswalkers 2013/2014, Limbo, The Walking Dead, GTA 3/Vice City/San Andreas, Max Payne, Bastion, etc.

Many of those titles aren't widely available for android tablets, and many of those games would be terrible to play with noticeably laggy touch controls to the point of being largely unplayable. Examples below, GS3 vs iPhone 5 on the same game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKng-U1DoP8

You're comparing a phone released in the spring to one released in the fall. Months in mobile are like years in consoles.

I'm actually one of the bigger Android proponents around, but I am sorry, this is a bullshit excuse you are making. He is making the fairest comparison that he can- he is using the flagship iOS phone and comparing it with the flagship Android phone.

I also want to point out, the flagship Android phone is evenly, if not higher, specced than the iOS phone in this case. The game running poorly on it is just because of a general lack of optimization, not just for that game specifically, but because Android itself is not as optimized (obviously) as iOS or especially Windows Phone are.

I didn't watch either video, I'm just stating common knowledge, new tablets/phones shit on ones released a few months before.

#66 Edited by charizard1605 (58304 posts) -

@topgunmv said:

@charizard1605 said:

@topgunmv said:

@musicalmac said:

@inb4uall said:

@musicalmac: No I just thought it was funny. You see, that sounds very similar to the buttons vs touchscreen argument we hear again and again in the tablets/phones vs handhelds argument.

Heh, well in this case it is apples to apples (no pun, promise), and scientifically speaking (after a study) it was proven that latency between the actual touch and the response of the device was noticeably higher on android devices than it was on iOS devices (Windows mobile devices were in the middle somewhere, closer to iOS).

To say that the 3DS and Vita are still good because eventually the author got sick of his Nexus 7 is a silly way to make a conclusion. I think he would have come to that conclusion regardless of what he had chosen to use instead of handheld gaming devices, but it would have taken a whole lot longer on the iPad with games like Xcom, Baldur's Gate 2, MtG Duels of the Plainswalkers 2013/2014, Limbo, The Walking Dead, GTA 3/Vice City/San Andreas, Max Payne, Bastion, etc.

Many of those titles aren't widely available for android tablets, and many of those games would be terrible to play with noticeably laggy touch controls to the point of being largely unplayable. Examples below, GS3 vs iPhone 5 on the same game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKng-U1DoP8

You're comparing a phone released in the spring to one released in the fall. Months in mobile are like years in consoles.

I'm actually one of the bigger Android proponents around, but I am sorry, this is a bullshit excuse you are making. He is making the fairest comparison that he can- he is using the flagship iOS phone and comparing it with the flagship Android phone.

I also want to point out, the flagship Android phone is evenly, if not higher, specced than the iOS phone in this case. The game running poorly on it is just because of a general lack of optimization, not just for that game specifically, but because Android itself is not as optimized (obviously) as iOS or especially Windows Phone are.

I didn't watch either video, I'm just stating common knowledge, new tablets/phones shit on ones released a few months before.

Yes, that is true within the Android-verse as a general rule of thumb, but

a) the flagship Samsung phones are so comically overspecced that they aren't outdone for at least a year after their release, and then only by the next Samsung (and sometimes HTC) phone

b) iPhones never manage to exceed the specs of a Galaxy. Like, they don't. In terms of specs, they are midrange, compared to how hilariously overequipped Samsung Galaxy phones are.

#67 Edited by topgunmv (10249 posts) -

@charizard1605 said:

@topgunmv said:

@charizard1605 said:

@topgunmv said:

@musicalmac said:

@inb4uall said:

@musicalmac: No I just thought it was funny. You see, that sounds very similar to the buttons vs touchscreen argument we hear again and again in the tablets/phones vs handhelds argument.

Heh, well in this case it is apples to apples (no pun, promise), and scientifically speaking (after a study) it was proven that latency between the actual touch and the response of the device was noticeably higher on android devices than it was on iOS devices (Windows mobile devices were in the middle somewhere, closer to iOS).

To say that the 3DS and Vita are still good because eventually the author got sick of his Nexus 7 is a silly way to make a conclusion. I think he would have come to that conclusion regardless of what he had chosen to use instead of handheld gaming devices, but it would have taken a whole lot longer on the iPad with games like Xcom, Baldur's Gate 2, MtG Duels of the Plainswalkers 2013/2014, Limbo, The Walking Dead, GTA 3/Vice City/San Andreas, Max Payne, Bastion, etc.

Many of those titles aren't widely available for android tablets, and many of those games would be terrible to play with noticeably laggy touch controls to the point of being largely unplayable. Examples below, GS3 vs iPhone 5 on the same game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKng-U1DoP8

You're comparing a phone released in the spring to one released in the fall. Months in mobile are like years in consoles.

I'm actually one of the bigger Android proponents around, but I am sorry, this is a bullshit excuse you are making. He is making the fairest comparison that he can- he is using the flagship iOS phone and comparing it with the flagship Android phone.

I also want to point out, the flagship Android phone is evenly, if not higher, specced than the iOS phone in this case. The game running poorly on it is just because of a general lack of optimization, not just for that game specifically, but because Android itself is not as optimized (obviously) as iOS or especially Windows Phone are.

I didn't watch either video, I'm just stating common knowledge, new tablets/phones shit on ones released a few months before.

Yes, that is true within the Android-verse as a general rule of thumb, but

a) the flagship Samsung phones are so comically overspecced that they aren't outdone for at least a year after their release, and then only by the next Samsung (and sometimes HTC) phone

b) iPhones never manage to exceed the specs of a Galaxy. Like, they don't. In terms of specs, they are midrange, compared to how hilariously overequipped Samsung Galaxy phones are.

Don't ipads/iphones usually perform well in benchmarks that only test the hardware too?

You can't just assume something is more powerful because it runs at a higher clockrate/has more processor cores.

#68 Posted by Big_Pecks (5365 posts) -

Kotaku aren't the only ones to have this belief.

The 3DS was written off early but after last year it got massive respect, and deservedly so. The Vita is the lesser choice of the two but I guess it has its merits.

But compared to mobile gaming? Handhelds blow it out of the water. Gaming is completely different between these two things, and handhelds are the less "casual" option.

#69 Posted by charizard1605 (58304 posts) -

@topgunmv said:

Don't ipads/iphones usually perform well in benchmarks that only test the hardware too?

You can't just assume something is more powerful because it runs at a higher clockrate/has more processor cores.

iPads, yes, but that's because Android tablets are still largely a joke outside of the Nexus line.

iPhones, no. Their performance comes not from hardware specs, but from some excellent optimization. That is where Apple has always excelled.

@Big_Pecks said:

Kotaku aren't the only ones to have this belief.

The 3DS was written off early but after last year it got massive respect, and deservedly so. The Vita is the lesser choice of the two but I guess it has its merits.

But compared to mobile gaming? Handhelds blow it out of the water. Gaming is completely different between these two things, and handhelds are the less "casual" option.

Definitely. In fact, right now, handhelds are among the last (non PC) bastions of traditional gaming- no bullshit online passes, always online requirements, day one DLC, microtransactions, F2P garbage, or any such bullshit. Just boot your game up and play. Just like what console gaming used to be.

#70 Posted by musicalmac (23036 posts) -

@charizard1605 @topgunmv Love the dialog about mobile stuff. Apple's devices have never been about beating anyone else, they're about offering the best possible performance and pairing that with the best possible user experience and battery life. The most important thing in the mobile world is proper balance, and nobody does that better than Apple.

Apple's App Store is a fantastic place to go for gaming, but the Vita and 3DS are both made almost exclusively for that purpose. It's likely that few titles developed simultaneously on both platforms (mobile vs Vita/3DS) would ever be significantly better on the tablet or phone. In most cases, it's kind of a shoe-in for the incumbent (that being Nintendo and Sony's devices).

With that in mind, using a Nexus 7 as a means to explain why the 3DS and Vita don't suck makes the whole article kind of unravel for me. I can't take that first part seriously at all because the kinds of games available for a Nexus 7 vs those available on an iPad are so far apart it's like a different league if not a different sport.

I think the reason I'm so bored by the 3DS is because it's just another DS (without a very useful second analog) that features a 3D feature most people I know turn off. My evidence is purely anecdotal, but even I couldn't play it for more than a half hour without feeling eye fatigue. Sadly, Sony's excellent hardware is being marred by woefully bad software options. You can say what you will, but there is no Halo-style trilogy, no Gears-style epic 3rd person, and no other blockbuster games that really take full advantage of the Vita's greatest strengths.

So, for me personally, that leaves me with my iPad and my iPhone primarily. Even the iPhone has a reasonably good, if a little grindy, Monster Hunter title. :P

#71 Posted by charizard1605 (58304 posts) -

@musicalmac: I'm sorry, I can hardly abide by your criticism of the 3DS hardware as 'just a stronger DS with an analog stick and a 3D screen,' when the Vita can similarly be reduced to 'just a stronger PSP with an additional analog stick and an OLED screen.'

What makes the Vita hardware so wonderful, and the 3DS hardware so boring, apart from the obvious power differential, which, from your outspoken love of Apple products, including as stated in the very post that I am in fact replying to, is not something you care for anyway?

#72 Posted by musicalmac (23036 posts) -

@charizard1605 said:

@musicalmac: I'm sorry, I can hardly abide by your criticism of the 3DS hardware as 'just a stronger DS with an analog stick and a 3D screen,' when the Vita can similarly be reduced to 'just a stronger PSP with an additional analog stick and an OLED screen.'

What makes the Vita hardware so wonderful, and the 3DS hardware so boring, apart from the obvious power differential, which, from your outspoken love of Apple products, including as stated in the very post that I am in fact replying to, is not something you care for anyway?

What's the hook for the 3DS? What makes it more special than the previous DS? It plays another set of games, obviously.

You know, the more I think about it, the more surprised I was when it was released without a second analog nub or stick or pad or something. The Vita has both, as well as a capitative touch screen and even a pair of touch pads on the back. It does something new and it includes what I feel should have been standard on the new Nintendo handheld hardware (two analogs or similar somethings). That's really what it boils down to for me. I don't even care about that power-sucking OLED screen except to say that it was a mistake to include in the original design (which they rectified with the updated model).

#73 Edited by charizard1605 (58304 posts) -

@musicalmac said:

@charizard1605 said:

@musicalmac: I'm sorry, I can hardly abide by your criticism of the 3DS hardware as 'just a stronger DS with an analog stick and a 3D screen,' when the Vita can similarly be reduced to 'just a stronger PSP with an additional analog stick and an OLED screen.'

What makes the Vita hardware so wonderful, and the 3DS hardware so boring, apart from the obvious power differential, which, from your outspoken love of Apple products, including as stated in the very post that I am in fact replying to, is not something you care for anyway?

What's the hook for the 3DS? What makes it more special than the previous DS? It plays another set of games, obviously.

You know, the more I think about it, the more surprised I was when it was released without a second analog nub or stick or pad or something. The Vita has both, as well as a capitative touch screen and even a pair of touch pads on the back. It does something new and it includes what I feel should have been standard on the new Nintendo handheld hardware (two analogs or similar somethings). That's really what it boils down to for me. I don't even care about that power-sucking OLED screen except to say that it was a mistake to include in the original design (which they rectified with the updated model).

The hook for the 3DS was the 3D, which didn't take off, but it was there. The hook was AR gaming. The hook was asynchonyous gameplay and constant connectivity over StreetPass and SpotPass.

Again, I am not quite sure how the Vita having one additional analog stick makes it new or daring or bold; I mean, you will hardly find me arguing that the omission of the second stick was not an oversight, but to claim that the addition of that stick to the Vita somehow makes it a daring and bold design, while its omission on the 3DS keeps it boring, sounds fallacious to me.

As for the touch pad on the back (it's just one touch pad, not a pair, and it is 1:1 with the front screen), I take that to be a concurrent concept to two screens on the 3/DS. Basically, it's Sony catching up with Nintendo circa 2004. And capacitive touch screen? Resistive is more precise (and more to the point, was needed to maintain backwards compatibility with the DS, which is a make or break issue in the handheld and even mobile market).

So again, why is the Vita hardware bold and daring, and the 3DS hardware not? Apart from the extra power, what does the Vita have outside of that one stick that makes it so much fresher?

#74 Posted by inb4uall (5806 posts) -

Dang I wish the ipad air or iphone 5s had a new input method. I mean without it the newest models are just like the old ones except a bit more powerful.

#75 Posted by dbtbandit67 (353 posts) -

Yeah that's what happens when you jump into the flavor of the week like Michael Pachter wanting Mario to be on iPhone. It's easy to be convinced if you're not someone that actually likes video games, just some old man pretending to be.

#76 Posted by topgunmv (10249 posts) -

@inb4uall: On android/kindle you can use a bluetooth controller, and I think ios lets you now too.

#77 Posted by Salt_The_Fries (9059 posts) -

@2Chalupas said:

@Salt_The_Fries said:

who the funk puts a wallet in his/her back pocket?

Pretty sure most adult males put their wallet in a back pocket.

I'll just assume you put yours in a man-purse.

Sorry, I rather don't invite pickpocketers to a grope-fest.

#78 Posted by blue_hazy_basic (27891 posts) -

@charizard1605 said:

@blue_hazy_basic said:

@charizard1605 said:

@blue_hazy_basic said:

@Jakandsigz said:

Charizard, comparing libraries of two handhelds that came out heading towards 2.2 years, to consoles that release a couple months ago. Flawless logic.

The funny thing? I'd still take those few month old new gen consoles libraries over the cesspool that is handheld gaming.

Cesspool? Please explain.

Pretty simple, almost all hand held games are terrible.

But you are very, very wrong

I was making a sweeping generalisation to make a point really. Its a very very rare occasion that I am in a situation that I could use a handheld over a laptop, desktop or console and in most of those I wouldn't have brought a handheld with me anyway. The games I can play on my PC's are just so much better than handhelds (for my type of gaming at least) that handheld gaming just isn't worth it for me. Indeed, having tried it, I'd rather do something else like listen to a audiobook with my spare time on the go.

#79 Edited by charizard1605 (58304 posts) -

@blue_hazy_basic said:

@charizard1605 said:

@blue_hazy_basic said:

@charizard1605 said:

@blue_hazy_basic said:

@Jakandsigz said:

Charizard, comparing libraries of two handhelds that came out heading towards 2.2 years, to consoles that release a couple months ago. Flawless logic.

The funny thing? I'd still take those few month old new gen consoles libraries over the cesspool that is handheld gaming.

Cesspool? Please explain.

Pretty simple, almost all hand held games are terrible.

But you are very, very wrong

I was making a sweeping generalisation to make a point really. Its a very very rare occasion that I am in a situation that I could use a handheld over a laptop, desktop or console and in most of those I wouldn't have brought a handheld with me anyway. The games I can play on my PC's are just so much better than handhelds (for my type of gaming at least) that handheld gaming just isn't worth it for me. Indeed, having tried it, I'd rather do something else like listen to a audiobook with my spare time on the go.

I mean, you are entirely entitled to your opinion and everything :P And I can definitely see how handhelds and handheld games would not necessarily fit your lifestyle and/or gaming preferences.

But I don't think you should flat out dismiss an entire segment of gaming just like that is all.

#80 Edited by PurpleMan5000 (7326 posts) -

@SEANMCAD said:

I have no interest in handheld gaming.

Sometimes I feel like I am the only person on the planet who is not interest in lowering the technology bar

You are probably only in the minority because most people realize that technology is much broader than screen resolution and polygon count. Form factor, touch screens, etc make a huge difference.

#81 Posted by Gargus (2147 posts) -

Who the hell actually pays attention to what kotaku has to say to begin with?

These are the fucking morons who will post a story about a man getting shot by the police because he just killed his wife and child in a drug fueled rage.....3 blocks from a gamestop. Or will talk about a guy who committed suicide....and he owned a xbox 360.

All kotaku is good for is skimming occasionally and finding some obscure game I might not have otherwise heard about, that's pretty much it. Their writers are glorified amateur bloggers with no real insight into gaming, whit, or savvy.

#82 Posted by SEANMCAD (5464 posts) -

@PurpleMan5000 said:

@SEANMCAD said:

I have no interest in handheld gaming.

Sometimes I feel like I am the only person on the planet who is not interest in lowering the technology bar

You are probably only in the minority because most people realize that technology is much broader than screen resolution and polygon count. Form factor, touch screens, etc make a huge difference.

So effectively what you are saying is that there is not a market for 4k gaming, virtual reality headset or even graphics from 2008

#83 Posted by PurpleMan5000 (7326 posts) -

@SEANMCAD said:

@PurpleMan5000 said:

@SEANMCAD said:

I have no interest in handheld gaming.

Sometimes I feel like I am the only person on the planet who is not interest in lowering the technology bar

You are probably only in the minority because most people realize that technology is much broader than screen resolution and polygon count. Form factor, touch screens, etc make a huge difference.

So effectively what you are saying is that there is not a market for 4k gaming, virtual reality headset or even graphics from 2008

When did I say that?

#84 Edited by musicalmac (23036 posts) -

@charizard1605 said:

The hook for the 3DS was the 3D, which didn't take off, but it was there. The hook was AR gaming. The hook was asynchonyous gameplay and constant connectivity over StreetPass and SpotPass.

Again, I am not quite sure how the Vita having one additional analog stick makes it new or daring or bold; I mean, you will hardly find me arguing that the omission of the second stick was not an oversight, but to claim that the addition of that stick to the Vita somehow makes it a daring and bold design, while its omission on the 3DS keeps it boring, sounds fallacious to me.

As for the touch pad on the back (it's just one touch pad, not a pair, and it is 1:1 with the front screen), I take that to be a concurrent concept to two screens on the 3/DS. Basically, it's Sony catching up with Nintendo circa 2004. And capacitive touch screen? Resistive is more precise (and more to the point, was needed to maintain backwards compatibility with the DS, which is a make or break issue in the handheld and even mobile market).

So again, why is the Vita hardware bold and daring, and the 3DS hardware not? Apart from the extra power, what does the Vita have outside of that one stick that makes it so much fresher?

Heh, to be fair I never called the addition of a second analog daring or bold, I said it was necessary and the Vita has one. And if one of the hooks is asynchronous gameplay, then Nintendo is farther behind the times than I imagined. I've been enjoying asynchronous gameplay for a long time now on my iPhone and my iPad. The other big hook was the 3D part, and that wasn't a good hook in general, as we seem to agree upon.

I don't really think it's accurate to look at the touch pad on the back of the Vita and compare it to the two screens the DS has had for quite a few iterations now. I'm also not saying that the 3DS should have had anything other than a resistivetouch screen, because that makes sense for the 3DS. But the inclusion of a touch screen on the Vita was a nice touch (get it?.... bad.).

In any case, the 3DS is still limited in large part by the lack of that second analog, that's my biggest beef. The Vita is unchained, but developers aren't taking advantage of it and neither is Sony. The Vita evolved in a useful and interesting manner with the inclusion of that other analog, but it's still held back by ridiculous memory prices and battery life (though that's rectified in large part with the LCD screened version).

The 3DS is just... another DS with a 3D feature you turn off. I suppose it also includes asynchronous gameplay, which makes a lot more sense in a smartphone that is always connected to a network somewhere and less so for a device dependent on a wi-fi network.

#85 Posted by jsmoke03 (12934 posts) -

other than jrpgs and the few indie titles, i dont see the point on owning a handheld

#86 Posted by Joedgabe (5127 posts) -

@R4gn4r0k said:

@blue_hazy_basic said:

Thats my point

But 2013 was great for 3DS and Vita: Zelda, Killzone, Tearaway, unique experiences as well as games that come close to console experiences.

All of that on the go, and for less than half the price of an Xbone or PS4.

2013 was even better for the PS3 though, i would say the 360 too but it didn't even have exclusives. But to me personally PS3 won last year hands down. Bioshock, GTA 5, The last of Us, DmC, Metal Gear Rising, Guacamelee, Far Cry blood Dragon, Xcom: enemy within. Rayman legends. Ni No Kuni, Hotline miami. God dayum! it was a great year for consoles....

#87 Edited by R4gn4r0k (16703 posts) -

@Joedgabe said:

2013 was even better for the PS3 though, i would say the 360 too but it didn't even have exclusives. But to me personally PS3 won last year hands down. Bioshock, GTA 5, The last of Us, DmC, Metal Gear Rising, Guacamelee, Far Cry blood Dragon, Xcom: enemy within. Rayman legends. Ni No Kuni, Hotline miami. God dayum! it was a great year for consoles....

Agreed, PS3 had an amazing year. I still have to play games like Puppeteer or Ni No Kuni.

The 360 had a disappointing year imo, barely any exclusives.

#88 Edited by Jag85 (4628 posts) -
@blue_hazy_basic said:

@charizard1605 said:

@blue_hazy_basic said:

@Jakandsigz said:

Charizard, comparing libraries of two handhelds that came out heading towards 2.2 years, to consoles that release a couple months ago. Flawless logic.

The funny thing? I'd still take those few month old new gen consoles libraries over the cesspool that is handheld gaming.

Cesspool? Please explain.

Pretty simple, almost all hand held games are terrible.

I'm afraid the factual statistics would have to disagree with you here:

Metacritic's Best Videogames of 2013

  • PS3 - 6.98% good exclusives (12 good out of 172 total)
  • X360 - 3.64% good exclusives (6 good out of 165 total)
  • PS4 - 6.9% good exclusives (2 good out of 29 total)
  • X1 - 15.8% good exclusives (3 good out of 19 total)
  • Wii U - 18.9% good exclusives (10 good out of 53 total)
  • PC - 15.9% good exclusives (51 good out of 321 total)
  • 3DS - 28.4% good exclusives (21 good out of 74 total)
  • PSV - 7.14% good exclusives (5 good out of 70 total)

It's pretty clear that the 3DS trumped all the consoles in terms of quality exclusives (more than all the next-gen consoles combined). The PS Vita isn't doing quite as well though.

#89 Edited by charizard1605 (58304 posts) -
@Joedgabe said:

@R4gn4r0k said:

@blue_hazy_basic said:

Thats my point

But 2013 was great for 3DS and Vita: Zelda, Killzone, Tearaway, unique experiences as well as games that come close to console experiences.

All of that on the go, and for less than half the price of an Xbone or PS4.

2013 was even better for the PS3 though, i would say the 360 too but it didn't even have exclusives. But to me personally PS3 won last year hands down. Bioshock, GTA 5, The last of Us, DmC, Metal Gear Rising, Guacamelee, Far Cry blood Dragon, Xcom: enemy within. Rayman legends. Ni No Kuni, Hotline miami. God dayum! it was a great year for consoles....

Nah. 3DS clearly won 2013. I mean, sure, you are entitled to your opinion (which is that PS3 won last year), and that's great, but on the whole, objectively, no other system has perhaps had a year as memorable or loaded as the 3DS did last year in recent memory.

#90 Edited by musicalmac (23036 posts) -

@Jag85 said:

I'm afraid the factual statistics would have to disagree with you here:

Metacritic's Best Videogames of 2013

  • PS3 - 6.98% good exclusives (12 good out of 172 total)
  • X360 - 3.64% good exclusives (6 good out of 165 total)
  • PS4 - 6.9% good exclusives (2 good out of 29 total)
  • X1 - 15.8% good exclusives (3 good out of 19 total)
  • Wii U - 18.9% good exclusives (10 good out of 53 total)
  • PC - 15.9% good exclusives (51 good out of 321 total)
  • 3DS - 28.4% good exclusives (21 good out of 74 total)
  • PSV - 7.14% good exclusives (5 good out of 70 total)

It's pretty clear that the 3DS trumped all the consoles in terms of quality exclusives (more than all the next-gen consoles combined). The PS Vita isn't doing quite as well though.

By percentage, the 3DS won without much of a fight. But if we went with a more important number, the physical number of good games, PC is more than double. Funny to see the Wii U and the PS3 practically neck and neck in "good" titles.

#91 Posted by blue_hazy_basic (27891 posts) -

@Jag85 said:
@blue_hazy_basic said:

@charizard1605 said:

@blue_hazy_basic said:

@Jakandsigz said:

Charizard, comparing libraries of two handhelds that came out heading towards 2.2 years, to consoles that release a couple months ago. Flawless logic.

The funny thing? I'd still take those few month old new gen consoles libraries over the cesspool that is handheld gaming.

Cesspool? Please explain.

Pretty simple, almost all hand held games are terrible.

I'm afraid the factual statistics would have to disagree with you here:

Metacritic's Best Videogames of 2013

  • PS3 - 6.98% good exclusives (12 good out of 172 total)
  • X360 - 3.64% good exclusives (6 good out of 165 total)
  • PS4 - 6.9% good exclusives (2 good out of 29 total)
  • X1 - 15.8% good exclusives (3 good out of 19 total)
  • Wii U - 18.9% good exclusives (10 good out of 53 total)
  • PC - 15.9% good exclusives (51 good out of 321 total)
  • 3DS - 28.4% good exclusives (21 good out of 74 total)
  • PSV - 7.14% good exclusives (5 good out of 70 total)

It's pretty clear that the 3DS trumped all the consoles in terms of quality exclusives (more than all the next-gen consoles combined). The PS Vita isn't doing quite as well though.

Except reviews are relative to their respective platforms.

Just because everyone loves flappy birds on an iphone doesn't mean that you'd score it the same on the PC.

#92 Edited by Joedgabe (5127 posts) -

@charizard1605 said:
@Joedgabe said:

@R4gn4r0k said:

@blue_hazy_basic said:

Thats my point

But 2013 was great for 3DS and Vita: Zelda, Killzone, Tearaway, unique experiences as well as games that come close to console experiences.

All of that on the go, and for less than half the price of an Xbone or PS4.

2013 was even better for the PS3 though, i would say the 360 too but it didn't even have exclusives. But to me personally PS3 won last year hands down. Bioshock, GTA 5, The last of Us, DmC, Metal Gear Rising, Guacamelee, Far Cry blood Dragon, Xcom: enemy within. Rayman legends. Ni No Kuni, Hotline miami. God dayum! it was a great year for consoles....

Nah. 3DS clearly won 2013. I mean, sure, you are entitled to your opinion (which is that PS3 won last year), and that's great, but on the whole, objectively, no other system has perhaps had a year as memorable or loaded as the 3DS did last year in recent memory.

I suppose that's all it'll be always. I played ALBW, Pokemon Y, and Fire Emblem Awakening, All 3 of them felt like way inferior versions than their predecessors so i only felt disappointment.

#93 Posted by PurpleMan5000 (7326 posts) -

@blue_hazy_basic said:

@Jag85 said:
@blue_hazy_basic said:

@charizard1605 said:

@blue_hazy_basic said:

@Jakandsigz said:

Charizard, comparing libraries of two handhelds that came out heading towards 2.2 years, to consoles that release a couple months ago. Flawless logic.

The funny thing? I'd still take those few month old new gen consoles libraries over the cesspool that is handheld gaming.

Cesspool? Please explain.

Pretty simple, almost all hand held games are terrible.

I'm afraid the factual statistics would have to disagree with you here:

Metacritic's Best Videogames of 2013

  • PS3 - 6.98% good exclusives (12 good out of 172 total)
  • X360 - 3.64% good exclusives (6 good out of 165 total)
  • PS4 - 6.9% good exclusives (2 good out of 29 total)
  • X1 - 15.8% good exclusives (3 good out of 19 total)
  • Wii U - 18.9% good exclusives (10 good out of 53 total)
  • PC - 15.9% good exclusives (51 good out of 321 total)
  • 3DS - 28.4% good exclusives (21 good out of 74 total)
  • PSV - 7.14% good exclusives (5 good out of 70 total)

It's pretty clear that the 3DS trumped all the consoles in terms of quality exclusives (more than all the next-gen consoles combined). The PS Vita isn't doing quite as well though.

Except reviews are relative to their respective platforms.

Just because everyone loves flappy birds on an iphone doesn't mean that you'd score it the same on the PC.

If you were to bump the resolution to 1080p and improve the textures, I don't think any of those handheld games would score any lower on the PC.

#94 Posted by charizard1605 (58304 posts) -

@Joedgabe said:

@charizard1605 said:
@Joedgabe said:

@R4gn4r0k said:

@blue_hazy_basic said:

Thats my point

But 2013 was great for 3DS and Vita: Zelda, Killzone, Tearaway, unique experiences as well as games that come close to console experiences.

All of that on the go, and for less than half the price of an Xbone or PS4.

2013 was even better for the PS3 though, i would say the 360 too but it didn't even have exclusives. But to me personally PS3 won last year hands down. Bioshock, GTA 5, The last of Us, DmC, Metal Gear Rising, Guacamelee, Far Cry blood Dragon, Xcom: enemy within. Rayman legends. Ni No Kuni, Hotline miami. God dayum! it was a great year for consoles....

Nah. 3DS clearly won 2013. I mean, sure, you are entitled to your opinion (which is that PS3 won last year), and that's great, but on the whole, objectively, no other system has perhaps had a year as memorable or loaded as the 3DS did last year in recent memory.

I suppose that's all it'll be always. I played ALBW, Pokemon Y, and Fire Emblem Awakening, All 3 of them felt like way inferior versions than their predecessors so i only felt disappointment.

Okay, wait.

I'll give that to you for Pokemon and Fire Emblem (even though they were not inferior, they lost out some stuff and gained other stuff in the process, but for the purposes of this argument, whatever).

But how the fuck was A Link Between Worlds inferior to anything?

And is your assessment of 3DS's 2013 based on just these three games?

#95 Posted by R4gn4r0k (16703 posts) -

@charizard1605 said:
@Joedgabe said:

2013 was even better for the PS3 though, i would say the 360 too but it didn't even have exclusives. But to me personally PS3 won last year hands down. Bioshock, GTA 5, The last of Us, DmC, Metal Gear Rising, Guacamelee, Far Cry blood Dragon, Xcom: enemy within. Rayman legends. Ni No Kuni, Hotline miami. God dayum! it was a great year for consoles....

Nah. 3DS clearly won 2013. I mean, sure, you are entitled to your opinion (which is that PS3 won last year), and that's great, but on the whole, objectively, no other system has perhaps had a year as memorable or loaded as the 3DS did last year in recent memory.

No, objectively PC won 2013. No system had as many worthwhile games as PC. Exclusives like Company of Heroes 2, Rome 2, Amnesia, Arma, Stanley Parable and Shadow Warrior, Civ V and Starcraft expansions, along with the best version of every multiplat (Tomb Raider, Battlefield, Bioshock Infinite, Metro Last Light, ...).

But I can agree that 3DS and PS3 also had an amazing year. And Vita and WiiU had a good one as well. 360s was lackluster.

#96 Posted by charizard1605 (58304 posts) -

@R4gn4r0k said:

@charizard1605 said:
@Joedgabe said:

2013 was even better for the PS3 though, i would say the 360 too but it didn't even have exclusives. But to me personally PS3 won last year hands down. Bioshock, GTA 5, The last of Us, DmC, Metal Gear Rising, Guacamelee, Far Cry blood Dragon, Xcom: enemy within. Rayman legends. Ni No Kuni, Hotline miami. God dayum! it was a great year for consoles....

Nah. 3DS clearly won 2013. I mean, sure, you are entitled to your opinion (which is that PS3 won last year), and that's great, but on the whole, objectively, no other system has perhaps had a year as memorable or loaded as the 3DS did last year in recent memory.

No, objectively PC won 2013. No system had as many worthwhile games as PC. Exclusives like Company of Heroes 2, Rome 2, Amnesia, Arma, Stanley Parable and Shadow Warrior, Civ V and Starcraft expansions, along with the best version of every multiplat (Tomb Raider, Battlefield, Bioshock Infinite, Metro Last Light, ...).

But I can agree that 3DS and PS3 also had an amazing year. And Vita and WiiU had a good one as well. 360s was lackluster.

Sorry, I meant outside of PC, of course. As in the dedicated gaming systems.

Just saying, though, I would not use Company of Heroes 2 and Rome 2 as bullet points in any victory, they were both so disappointing (the latter more than the former).

#97 Edited by Jag85 (4628 posts) -

@musicalmac said:

@Jag85 said:

I'm afraid the factual statistics would have to disagree with you here:

Metacritic's Best Videogames of 2013

  • PS3 - 6.98% good exclusives (12 good out of 172 total)
  • X360 - 3.64% good exclusives (6 good out of 165 total)
  • PS4 - 6.9% good exclusives (2 good out of 29 total)
  • X1 - 15.8% good exclusives (3 good out of 19 total)
  • Wii U - 18.9% good exclusives (10 good out of 53 total)
  • PC - 15.9% good exclusives (51 good out of 321 total)
  • 3DS - 28.4% good exclusives (21 good out of 74 total)
  • PSV - 7.14% good exclusives (5 good out of 70 total)

It's pretty clear that the 3DS trumped all the consoles in terms of quality exclusives (more than all the next-gen consoles combined). The PS Vita isn't doing quite as well though.

By percentage, the 3DS won without much of a fight. But if we went with a more important number, the physical number of good games, PC is more than double. Funny to see the Wii U and the PS3 practically neck and neck in "good" titles.

I know. Percentage-wise, 3DS dominated, followed by Wii U, then PC. Number-wise, PC dominated, followed by 3DS, then PS3. Overall, it was PC and 3DS which dominated last year. And yeah, the PS3 and Wii U were pretty close.

@blue_hazy_basic said:

@Jag85 said:
@blue_hazy_basic said:

@charizard1605 said:

@blue_hazy_basic said:

@Jakandsigz said:

Charizard, comparing libraries of two handhelds that came out heading towards 2.2 years, to consoles that release a couple months ago. Flawless logic.

The funny thing? I'd still take those few month old new gen consoles libraries over the cesspool that is handheld gaming.

Cesspool? Please explain.

Pretty simple, almost all hand held games are terrible.

I'm afraid the factual statistics would have to disagree with you here:

Metacritic's Best Videogames of 2013

  • PS3 - 6.98% good exclusives (12 good out of 172 total)
  • X360 - 3.64% good exclusives (6 good out of 165 total)
  • PS4 - 6.9% good exclusives (2 good out of 29 total)
  • X1 - 15.8% good exclusives (3 good out of 19 total)
  • Wii U - 18.9% good exclusives (10 good out of 53 total)
  • PC - 15.9% good exclusives (51 good out of 321 total)
  • 3DS - 28.4% good exclusives (21 good out of 74 total)
  • PSV - 7.14% good exclusives (5 good out of 70 total)

It's pretty clear that the 3DS trumped all the consoles in terms of quality exclusives (more than all the next-gen consoles combined). The PS Vita isn't doing quite as well though.

Except reviews are relative to their respective platforms.

Just because everyone loves flappy birds on an iphone doesn't mean that you'd score it the same on the PC.

Android and iPhone are a completely different ball park. I highly doubt Flabby Bird would score any better on 3DS than it would on PC.

#98 Posted by R4gn4r0k (16703 posts) -

@charizard1605 said:

Sorry, I meant outside of PC, of course. As in the dedicated gaming systems.

Just saying, though, I would not use Company of Heroes 2 and Rome 2 as bullet points in any victory, they were both so disappointing (the latter more than the former).

Sure, they had a tough job achieving the quality of their predecessors (COH1 and Rome 1) but that didn't stop them from being great games. Rome launched in a terrible state yes, and COH has way too much microtransactions sure, but I consider these small complaints in otherwise great games.

I just started listing the games that I found the most fun in 2013 :p. Same with Shadow Warrior, I doubt many have played it but is easily my favourite FPS of 2013. Same with COJ: Gunslinger the game is just pure fun !

Check my steam profile, COH2 is my most played game of last year.

I could make a list based on what achieved critical acclaim or is popular among gamers. But then again, I enjoyed games like Donkey Kong Country and Luigi's Mansion a lot on 3DS too and those games scored rather low on Gamespot, so I just make my own lists :P

#99 Edited by Joedgabe (5127 posts) -

@charizard1605: besides those and Monster hunter i didn't really see any other one that picked up my interest. and ALBW was inferior to me to LTTP. I didn't like how they did the dungeons in ALBW and the gear set up about renting all the weapons or buying them from the get go. I liked it better when as you went through the dungeons you found the weapons that helped do other things in the world and finish the dungeons and boss. I also didn't like how you upgrade the sword through the dungeon ore. i thought it was just a lot more interesting and fun to figure out who to trade the items to like in ALTP. And lastly i'll agree with the reviewers here that it felt too familiar, a bit too much for my taste honestly. But that's not to say the game was bad i did enjoy it, just felt disappointing and i wouldn't call like great.

#100 Posted by stuff238 (739 posts) -

I usually buy handhelds at the end of their life cycle when they are only like $50-100 used or new. Then I pick up on the couple games I missed on. I don't like handheld gaming that much either. I mostly buy nintendo handhelds for Pokemon and........um.......

I liked the PSP though. Had a solid library of games, but then they all got ported to PS2 and PS3 which makes me wonder why I bought it in the first place. PSP had soooo many great exclusives until they ported GoW, GTA, Jak, MGS and a bunch of others away. Now, I pray PS Vita doesn't become a port machine and keeps it's exclusives other wise I see no point in buying one.

If they don't keep killzone mercenary, Uncharted Golden Abyss and whatever else in the future, then screw it.