It's time to rethink Japan's place in the industry

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deactivated-57d307c5efcda

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#51 deactivated-57d307c5efcda
Member since 2009 • 1302 Posts

@alcapello said:

Only standout WD is Rockstar and Falllout Vegas devs at this point.

Are you kidding? Naughty Dog, Bioware, Visceral, RockSteady, CD Project Red, Bungie, Crystal Dynamics, Santa Monica Studios, Turn 10 and Ubisoft are some of the great developers the west has. I'll agree that Rockstar and Bethesda are good too, but all these others guys deserve to be right next to them (an to be honest if I were to rank all of them in my favorite to least it would be difficult.

Also, to be on topic, I'm sad the japanese game industry isn't as prevalent anymore. Nintendo still shows its magic, Namco is finally listening to fans and bringing the Tales of Games over to the US. Square still has some magic left in it, they just need to get rid of the dude who's insistent on making XIII sequels (not that they were awful, I still liked them, but they don't compare to X and before). So they still have a few key devs left, but it isn't like it used to be. I miss games like Shadow Hearts, Rouge Galaxy, Xenosaga (still kinda living through the xenoblade series, but still not the same) and all the other classic jrpgs. Basically I miss the great jrpg's on the PS1 and PS2. jrpg's have basically turned into moe jrpgs, (which I just cannot take), and only throwing us the with the occasional traditional jrpgs like Tales, Final Fantasy or Ni no Kuni that follow the classic more traditional jrpg formula once in a while, which leaves us with only a few actual quality jrpgs anymore.

I think western development has improved since the PS2 era while eastern has gone down. Basically Bioware has replaced square as my favorite developer. I'll be honest, if it weren't for Bioware and CD Project Red, I'd be missing jrpg's alot more, but at least I have Tales and the occasional FF title for my jrpg fix and have more wrpg's to play inbetween., but I still wish there were more quality jrpg titles today. It's funny how Bioware or Bethesda can develop a huge RPG in 2 years while square is on it's 6th or so year for a FF game. And it's even been stated that FFXIII took so long because they had so many set pieces, but they never ended up using all of it and had enough to do a sequel. That spells bad management and bad focus, the story boarders and main game designers should have had more focus on what was going in the game, rather than having the artists model out all these extra pieces that didn't even have a place in the final vision of the game.

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Blabadon

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#52 Blabadon
Member since 2008 • 33030 Posts

@mems_1224: Legit. The translators at Spike Chunsoft were fantastic. Dialogue gets better and better on replays too.

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Boddicker

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#53 Boddicker
Member since 2012 • 4458 Posts

@LJS9502_basic said:

Wading at the start? What does that mean?

Anyway, let devs make the games they want. Let people buy what they want. Win Win.

I think he meant "waning."

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jg4xchamp

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#54 jg4xchamp
Member since 2006 • 64037 Posts

@Ballroompirate said:

All I got from this thread is

Dean Brochester in anime should be considered terrorism.

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commonfate

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#55 commonfate
Member since 2010 • 13320 Posts

@Blabadon said:

999 has better writing than any western game ever.

It's certainly a contender.

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Ballroompirate

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#56  Edited By Ballroompirate
Member since 2005 • 26695 Posts

@jg4xchamp said:

@Ballroompirate said:

All I got from this thread is

Dean Brochester in anime should be considered terrorism.

Who's Dean?

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limpbizkit818

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#57  Edited By limpbizkit818
Member since 2004 • 15044 Posts

I like how people think the term "western games" or "western developers" means something. It's like saying that western food sucks, or you would never buy a western car. The term is so broad that it's meaningless

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Articuno76

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#58  Edited By Articuno76
Member since 2004 • 19799 Posts

I for one don't think the OP's statement is that controversial. Japanese developers have been struggling with funding issues for some time now, which has arm-tied them. But it's not that the money isn't there, rather the funding mechanisms simply aren't in place. This is sometihng Tekken producer Katsuhiro Harada can attest to. Fortunately innovative venture capital/publisher hybrid companys are popping-up now offering a potential solution to funding issues, and possibly linking to getting hobbyist developers to publish their games through official channels.

Though I would say it is unfair to say Japan doesn't have indie presence. After all, isn't that what douhinshi game makers basically are?

if you guys want to know more about the underground Japanese indie scene I suggest you check out this video documentary Gamespot ran a while back.

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#59 parkurtommo
Member since 2009 • 28295 Posts

@mems_1224 said:

@Blabadon said:

I wish a lot of Japanese games would stop sharing the same art style. Same with many western games but to a lesser extent.

I wish they would just stop with the anime bullshit. That and the bad writing/voice acting when porting to America.

I wish those damn japs would stop having a unique art style that is the very essence of their artist culture too.

I'm not a big fan of generic anime either but to say "stop with the anime bullshit" is literally saying "stop doing that thing you've done for hundreds of years with a revolving industry".

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Articuno76

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#60  Edited By Articuno76
Member since 2004 • 19799 Posts

@limpbizkit818 said:

I like how people think the term "western games" or "western developers" means something. It's like saying that western food sucks, or you would never buy a western car. The term is so broad that it's meaningless

I'm not so sure. Western developers all have one thing in common: English.

That can be English as a first language or as a widely understood secondary language. This is important because it means "western" staff can move between studios in locations as distant as France, Australia and Canada with relative ease, facilitating a western-wide brain-trade of technological know-how and cutting edge development techniques.

It's no coincidence that western games on the whole are technologically more complex and accomplished than their Japanese counterparts; these developers have been building on the strength of collective know-how.

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#61 jg4xchamp
Member since 2006 • 64037 Posts

@Blabadon said:

999 has better writing than any western game ever.

any western game? no

Actually good thus better than a disgusting majority of video game writing? correct.

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xMessiahbolical

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#62  Edited By xMessiahbolical
Member since 2011 • 25 Posts

Japan is awful these days at home console game developing. Maybe in a few years when Nintendo stops bothering making terrible home consoles and finally becomes a 3rd party developer and makes a Zelda game for the PS4 then I'll finally buy my first Japanese game in years, or maybe if Square ditches Enix and goes back to the original Squaresoft and makes a Final Fantasy in the classic turn based style for the PS4... but other than that I haven't paid for a Japanese game for a home console since Metal Gear Solid 4 and that was easily one of the worst games I've ever purchased in my life(thank god the store believed me that it wouldn't install on my PS3 and gave me a refund)...

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deactivated-57ad0e5285d73

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#63 deactivated-57ad0e5285d73
Member since 2009 • 21398 Posts

"Western developers" hardly even make games anymore. I don't expect everyone to catch what I'm saying. If one were to say that japan is "struggling", it has more to do with the industry changing than anything else. And is it changing for the better? Not imo. Games have lost the ability to truly challenge the player, in the Western market. It is quite sad.

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#64  Edited By Bruin1986
Member since 2007 • 1629 Posts

@uninspiredcup said:

My friends, Japan has a different lifestyle. While we in the West are incredibly lazy, the Japan peoples lifestyle has them doing stuff, thus, they have no time for pc gaming. An accessible console with a specific type of game is logical.

Yeah, the West is sure a bunch of lazy slobs...doing things like inventing the Internet, and computers, and electricity, and cars, and airplanes, space flight, putting people on the moon, curing Polio, and frankly, 95% of all major advancements in the past few centuries. Such lazy slobs :)

Yes, Japan has a very strong work ethic...and it's driving so many people to commit suicide that the government literally pays public therapists to wander around forests in Japan, either searching for corpses or hopefully finding individuals before they kill themselves and talking them out of it.

Their suicide rate is double the United States.

It's incredibly sad. Though, in the years following WW2, they've become a very strong ally and economic superpower along with much of SE Asia.

Though neither compare to Suicide HQ, aka Greenland.

On original OP, yes, from what I've seen, Japan has an exceedingly conservative and insular culture. It's also the most ethnically homogenous nation on the planet, with the possible exception of Korea. The two facts aren't unrelated.

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#65  Edited By lordlors
Member since 2004 • 6128 Posts

@Articuno76 said:

I for one don't think the OP's statement is that controversial. Japanese developers have been struggling with funding issues for some time now, which has arm-tied them. But it's not that the money isn't there, rather the funding mechanisms simply aren't in place. This is sometihng Tekken producer Katsuhiro Harada can attest to. Fortunately innovative venture capital/publisher hybrid companys are popping-up now offering a potential solution to funding issues, and possibly linking to getting hobbyist developers to publish their games through official channels.

Though I would say it is unfair to say Japan doesn't have indie presence. After all, isn't that what douhinshi game makers basically are?

if you guys want to know more about the underground Japanese indie scene I suggest you check out this video documentary Gamespot ran a while back.

That's why I included the term "visible" indie scene. Not only is their indie scene not united where indie devs can discuss and share, outside of word of mouth and some conventions, indie games don't exist. DD still hasn't caught up in Japan yet. Japan doesn't have anything like IGDA or any indie-related event. BitSummit was the only one and it just recently started which shows Japan is playing catch up. With Steam's obscurity in Japan, I don't think things are going to change that much anytime soon especially that the Japanese are reluctant to go all indie (only veterans and oldies like Keiji Inafune can do it). I've heard most of those people who make doujinshi are doing it in their spare time and anyone who dares to go all indie (not working on a stable job or in a company) will be shunned by their families. They have no means of selling their games to a wide audience like through Steam anyway. PC gaming is a niche in Japan so that already puts a lot of the Japanese at a disadvantage with no knowledge of PC game development.

This is why indie scene in the West is superior in every way.

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#66 ReadingRainbow4
Member since 2012 • 18733 Posts

@Aljosa23 said:

@mems_1224: lol

You have no idea what you are talking about.

@StrifeDelivery said:

@PurpleMan5000 said:

Well, I for one am glad they are isolated. They might make games more like western developers are making otherwise, and I prefer the games currently coming out of Japan.

This here.

Also, ignore mems.

Duly noted, thanks.

I concur. He never knows what he's talking about.

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#67 superbuuman
Member since 2010 • 6400 Posts

They just need to stop changing to suit the West - especially USA - dialogs etc. Its goes pear shape when they try to cater for both audience. If USA don't like it then just don't release it there simple. The other is just to sub it rather than dub..dub english are usually awful anyway. :P

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#68 lordlors
Member since 2004 • 6128 Posts

@LJS9502_basic said:

Wading at the start? What does that mean?

Anyway, let devs make the games they want. Let people buy what they want. Win Win.

@Bigboi500 said:

Man I am so bothered with other people enjoying other things. How dare they like what I don't!

I don't care what people want to play or enjoy. What I care about is people deeming Japan as a very important nation in the video game industry when the video game industry of Japan seems to be insular and ignorant of things outside its borders. I'm arguing that Japan wasn't really that important and influential and now is even becoming more irrelevant. I still can't fathom why a lot of Japanese gamers don't know what Starcraft is or C&C or WoW or DoTA. Ask other Asian gamers and most likely they will know.

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#69 Spitfire-Six
Member since 2014 • 1378 Posts

@lordlors said:

@LJS9502_basic said:

Wading at the start? What does that mean?

Anyway, let devs make the games they want. Let people buy what they want. Win Win.

@Bigboi500 said:

Man I am so bothered with other people enjoying other things. How dare they like what I don't!

I don't care what people want to play or enjoy. What I care about is people deeming Japan as a very important nation in the video game industry when the video game industry of Japan seems to be insular and ignorant of things outside its borders. I'm arguing that Japan wasn't really that important and influential and now is even becoming more irrelevant. I still can't fathom why a lot of Japanese gamers don't know what Starcraft is or C&C or WoW or DoTA. Ask other Asian gamers and most likely they will know.

you think that's only with video games ?LMFAO

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#70 StrifeDelivery
Member since 2006 • 1901 Posts

@lordlors said:

@LJS9502_basic said:

Wading at the start? What does that mean?

Anyway, let devs make the games they want. Let people buy what they want. Win Win.

@Bigboi500 said:

Man I am so bothered with other people enjoying other things. How dare they like what I don't!

I don't care what people want to play or enjoy. What I care about is people deeming Japan as a very important nation in the video game industry when the video game industry of Japan seems to be insular and ignorant of things outside its borders. I'm arguing that Japan wasn't really that important and influential and now is even becoming more irrelevant. I still can't fathom why a lot of Japanese gamers don't know what Starcraft is or C&C or WoW or DoTA. Ask other Asian gamers and most likely they will know.

Wait... let me get this straight. You're trying to say that Japan wasn't that important with regards to the history of the video game industry?

If that is your stance...yikes.

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mems_1224

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#71 mems_1224
Member since 2004 • 56919 Posts

@ReadingRainbow4 said:

@Aljosa23 said:

@mems_1224: lol

You have no idea what you are talking about.

@StrifeDelivery said:

@PurpleMan5000 said:

Well, I for one am glad they are isolated. They might make games more like western developers are making otherwise, and I prefer the games currently coming out of Japan.

This here.

Also, ignore mems.

Duly noted, thanks.

I concur. He never knows what he's talking about.

Sure I do. Its not my fault the rest of you are really slow.

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deactivated-5b1e62582e305

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#72  Edited By deactivated-5b1e62582e305
Member since 2004 • 30778 Posts

@lordlors said:

@LJS9502_basic said:

Wading at the start? What does that mean?

Anyway, let devs make the games they want. Let people buy what they want. Win Win.

@Bigboi500 said:

Man I am so bothered with other people enjoying other things. How dare they like what I don't!

I'm arguing that Japan wasn't really that important and influential and now is even becoming more irrelevant.

That is an absurd statement to make.

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#73  Edited By GeoffZak
Member since 2007 • 3715 Posts

I still think the best video games of today come from Japan. Japanese developers just aren't as influential anymore because their games are wildly popular only in Japan.

Games like Resident Evil, Silent Hill, and Castlevania aren't what they used to be. (I actually still like the new Silent Hill games, but those were handled by western devs. And I do prefer Silent Hill 2 + 3 on the PS2)

Those games were very influential back in the day, so they became household names. Even my mom knows about Silent Hill because of the movies.

In later installments of these games, it seems like Japanese devs have been influenced by western devs. I don't think that's a recipe for success. (Sometimes it works. People love Dark Souls and Lost Planet is a decent game.)

I like what Japanese devs do. Something about their games feels unique. The games of this generation that brought me the most enjoyment were Japanese games. Tales of Graces, Tales of Xillia, The Last Story, Ni No Kuni, White Knight Chronicles, Catherine, Metal Gear Solid 4, and Metal Gear Rising are some examples.

I hope Japanese devs keep doing what they're doing because in my opinion their games are still amazing. I just hope they can figure out a way to appeal to western audiences as well without losing their own charm. If they don't do that the market is doomed to be dominated by Call of Duty clones.

I'm tired of all of the re-hashed game design concepts used in western games. They've become so predictable.

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lordlors

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#74  Edited By lordlors
Member since 2004 • 6128 Posts

@StrifeDelivery said:

@lordlors said:

@LJS9502_basic said:

Wading at the start? What does that mean?

Anyway, let devs make the games they want. Let people buy what they want. Win Win.

@Bigboi500 said:

Man I am so bothered with other people enjoying other things. How dare they like what I don't!

I don't care what people want to play or enjoy. What I care about is people deeming Japan as a very important nation in the video game industry when the video game industry of Japan seems to be insular and ignorant of things outside its borders. I'm arguing that Japan wasn't really that important and influential and now is even becoming more irrelevant. I still can't fathom why a lot of Japanese gamers don't know what Starcraft is or C&C or WoW or DoTA. Ask other Asian gamers and most likely they will know.

Wait... let me get this straight. You're trying to say that Japan wasn't that important with regards to the history of the video game industry?

If that is your stance...yikes.

Not really. They were very important during the NES until PS era but you have to look at the state of Western game development at that time. The Japanese abandoned the PC and went for consoles while the Western devs went for PC. Once the Western devs with great knowledge of PC game development delved into consoles, it was all over for Japan. The Japanese made game engines for each game unlike the West which already signaled an imminent downfall. The West made a web of sharing of information between devs while in Japan the devs practiced secrecy. Because of the limitation of the controller of a console compared to a KB/mouse, the FPS and RTS genre never flourished in Japan which would have given birth to sub-genres. They made something great but didn't go further. The insularity of the nation will cause its video game industry's decadence and further irrelevancy. In other words, even when Japan was at its top, it was really the West running the show.

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StrifeDelivery

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#75 StrifeDelivery
Member since 2006 • 1901 Posts

@lordlors said:

@StrifeDelivery said:

@lordlors said:

I don't care what people want to play or enjoy. What I care about is people deeming Japan as a very important nation in the video game industry when the video game industry of Japan seems to be insular and ignorant of things outside its borders. I'm arguing that Japan wasn't really that important and influential and now is even becoming more irrelevant. I still can't fathom why a lot of Japanese gamers don't know what Starcraft is or C&C or WoW or DoTA. Ask other Asian gamers and most likely they will know.

Wait... let me get this straight. You're trying to say that Japan wasn't that important with regards to the history of the video game industry?

If that is your stance...yikes.

Not really. They were very important during the NES until PS era but you have to look at the state of Western game development at that time. The Japanese abandoned the PC and went for consoles while the Western devs went for PC. Once the Western devs with great knowledge of PC game development delved into consoles, it was all over for Japan. The Japanese made game engines for each game unlike the West which already signaled an imminent downfall. The West made a web of sharing of information between devs while in Japan the devs practiced secrecy. Because of the limitation of the controller of a console compared to a KB/mouse, the FPS and RTS genre never flourished in Japan which would have given birth to sub-genres. They made something great but didn't go further. The insularity of the nation will cause its video game industry's decadence and further irrelevancy. In other words, even when Japan was at its top, it was really the West running the show.

So they weren't important during Gen 6, with what, 3 out of the 4 console makers being Japanese companies (Sega, Nintendo, and Sony) and the PS2 being the largest selling console of all time?

It's easy to take this blob entity known as "Western" devs which pretty much almost means the world with regards to game development (North America, the whole of Europe, etc.) vs. the small country of Japan.

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lordlors

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#76 lordlors
Member since 2004 • 6128 Posts
@StrifeDelivery said:

@lordlors said:

@StrifeDelivery said:

@lordlors said:

I don't care what people want to play or enjoy. What I care about is people deeming Japan as a very important nation in the video game industry when the video game industry of Japan seems to be insular and ignorant of things outside its borders. I'm arguing that Japan wasn't really that important and influential and now is even becoming more irrelevant. I still can't fathom why a lot of Japanese gamers don't know what Starcraft is or C&C or WoW or DoTA. Ask other Asian gamers and most likely they will know.

Wait... let me get this straight. You're trying to say that Japan wasn't that important with regards to the history of the video game industry?

If that is your stance...yikes.

Not really. They were very important during the NES until PS era but you have to look at the state of Western game development at that time. The Japanese abandoned the PC and went for consoles while the Western devs went for PC. Once the Western devs with great knowledge of PC game development delved into consoles, it was all over for Japan. The Japanese made game engines for each game unlike the West which already signaled an imminent downfall. The West made a web of sharing of information between devs while in Japan the devs practiced secrecy. Because of the limitation of the controller of a console compared to a KB/mouse, the FPS and RTS genre never flourished in Japan which would have given birth to sub-genres. They made something great but didn't go further. The insularity of the nation will cause its video game industry's decadence and further irrelevancy. In other words, even when Japan was at its top, it was really the West running the show.

So they weren't important during Gen 6, with what, 3 out of the 4 console makers being Japanese companies (Sega, Nintendo, and Sony) and the PS2 being the largest selling console of all time?

It's easy to take this blob entity known as "Western" devs which pretty much almost means the world with regards to game development (North America, the whole of Europe, etc.) vs. the small country of Japan.

What I meant by important and influential is not by sales but by which creating something that made the video game industry progressed. Game engines like id tech and source, digital distribution like Steam, the IGDA, etc. All Japan ever contributed that truly had a lasting effect on the industry was reviving the consoles. Great games? It is the system and the structure in place that will give birth to them that is more important and more influential. I know you think it's unfair to compare a single country to a region but people hail Japan as if it has contributed as much as the West has.

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Articuno76

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#77  Edited By Articuno76
Member since 2004 • 19799 Posts
@jg4xchamp said:

@Blabadon said:

999 has better writing than any western game ever.

any western game? no

Actually good thus better than a disgusting majority of video game writing? correct.

TBH it's not a fair comparison given that most Japanese games are penned in Japanese and then translated. And often those translations come with idiosyncracities of Japanese either intact to the point where it's unnatural, or missing so nuance and impact is lost. Either way, the small helping of localised games you might play in English aren't a good example of writing in Japanese games on the whole. And certainly not representative of the best its developers have to offer.

Keep an eye on Nintendo's in-house translation teams for their big titles such as Zelda, as they are arguably the pinnacle of videogame translation. And they're working with merely decent scripts. The industry needs more localisation to be done to that kind of standard.

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deactivated-5b1e62582e305

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#78 deactivated-5b1e62582e305
Member since 2004 • 30778 Posts

@lordlors said:
@StrifeDelivery said:

@lordlors said:

@StrifeDelivery said:

@lordlors said:

I don't care what people want to play or enjoy. What I care about is people deeming Japan as a very important nation in the video game industry when the video game industry of Japan seems to be insular and ignorant of things outside its borders. I'm arguing that Japan wasn't really that important and influential and now is even becoming more irrelevant. I still can't fathom why a lot of Japanese gamers don't know what Starcraft is or C&C or WoW or DoTA. Ask other Asian gamers and most likely they will know.

Wait... let me get this straight. You're trying to say that Japan wasn't that important with regards to the history of the video game industry?

If that is your stance...yikes.

Not really. They were very important during the NES until PS era but you have to look at the state of Western game development at that time. The Japanese abandoned the PC and went for consoles while the Western devs went for PC. Once the Western devs with great knowledge of PC game development delved into consoles, it was all over for Japan. The Japanese made game engines for each game unlike the West which already signaled an imminent downfall. The West made a web of sharing of information between devs while in Japan the devs practiced secrecy. Because of the limitation of the controller of a console compared to a KB/mouse, the FPS and RTS genre never flourished in Japan which would have given birth to sub-genres. They made something great but didn't go further. The insularity of the nation will cause its video game industry's decadence and further irrelevancy. In other words, even when Japan was at its top, it was really the West running the show.

So they weren't important during Gen 6, with what, 3 out of the 4 console makers being Japanese companies (Sega, Nintendo, and Sony) and the PS2 being the largest selling console of all time?

It's easy to take this blob entity known as "Western" devs which pretty much almost means the world with regards to game development (North America, the whole of Europe, etc.) vs. the small country of Japan.

What I meant by important and influential is not by sales but by which creating something that made the video game industry progressed. Game engines like id tech and source, digital distribution like Steam, the IGDA, etc. All Japan ever contributed that truly had a lasting effect on the industry was reviving the consoles. Great games? It is the system and the structure in place that will give birth to them that is more important and more influential. I know you think it's unfair to compare a single country to a region but people hail Japan as if it has contributed as much as the West has.

Important and influential stuff Japan has made and/or contributed to:
- The analog stick
- Popularized handheld gaming
- Dpad
- Endless list of genres created by Japanese developers
- Online gaming on consoles (the SNES had it then the Dreamcast)
- Disc media on consoles
- Free camera independent of the character (in Super Mario 64)
etc. etc.

They have certainly contributed to gaming as much as the West has, maybe more in other areas. To think otherwise is just bizarre.

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deactivated-5ebea105efb64

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#79 deactivated-5ebea105efb64
Member since 2013 • 7262 Posts

Meh, Jrpg's sucks now a days. I only like games from "From Sotfware" now.

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#80  Edited By Messiahbolical-
Member since 2009 • 5670 Posts

@Heirren said:

"Western developers" hardly even make games anymore. I don't expect everyone to catch what I'm saying. If one were to say that japan is "struggling", it has more to do with the industry changing than anything else. And is it changing for the better? Not imo. Games have lost the ability to truly challenge the player, in the Western market. It is quite sad.

So what about Japanese games "truly challenges the player" more than games in the Western market? Because every Japanese franchise I've played lately that used to offer a decent challenge in the past seems to be getting easier and easier with each release.

And a lot of games in Japan keep introducing items for players that can't handle what little challenge the games have left that make the game TOO easy, like the invincibility leaf in Mario that appears when you die too many times in a row... or the new Exp Share in Pokemon X/Y that you get early in the game and makes the game wayyy too easy by letting every single Pokemon in your party get experience from every single enemy Pokemon you faint even if you never sent the Pokemon out onto the battlefield, resulting in over-leveled Pokemon throughout the game without ever having to grind to beat gym leaders or train up newly caught Pokemon.

So don't sit here and act like all Japanese game developers care about keeping their games challenging more than western devs. There are challenging games from all over the world, and there are games that are too easy all over the world including Japan.

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deactivated-57ad0e5285d73

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#81 deactivated-57ad0e5285d73
Member since 2009 • 21398 Posts

@Messiahbolical- said:

@Heirren said:

"Western developers" hardly even make games anymore. I don't expect everyone to catch what I'm saying. If one were to say that japan is "struggling", it has more to do with the industry changing than anything else. And is it changing for the better? Not imo. Games have lost the ability to truly challenge the player, in the Western market. It is quite sad.

So what about Japanese games "truly challenges the player" more than games in the Western market? Because every Japanese franchise I've played lately that used to offer a decent challenge in the past seems to be getting easier and easier with each release.

And a lot of games in Japan keep introducing items for players that can't handle what little challenge the games have left that make the game TOO easy, like the invincibility leaf in Mario that appears when you die too many times in a row... or the new Exp Share in Pokemon X/Y that you get early in the game and makes the game wayyy too easy by letting every single Pokemon in your party get experience from every single enemy Pokemon you faint even if you never sent the Pokemon out onto the battlefield, resulting in over-leveled Pokemon throughout the game without ever having to grind to beat gym leaders or train up newly caught Pokemon.

So don't sit here and act like all Japanese game developers care about keeping their games challenging more than western devs. There are challenging games from all over the world, and there are games that are too easy all over the world including Japan.

I do agree that games in general are much easier these days. Maybe a better way of putting it is that the control methods tend to be more dynamic and allow for the player to develop a "skill" in relation to the game. Games like Mario 64/Sunshine/Galaxy and Mario Kart have very nuanced controls. Parts of those games are easy, sure, but I like that they still stress mastering the actual control input. Street Fighter is another decent example. And, some may find it surprising, but Nintendo Land as well. The Japanese still favor a more musical approach to game design. Western design feels mostly clunky, and the ones that aren't get ragged on by fans--Rage is one of the better fps games from last gen, imo, as it really excels at the actual act of moving and shooting and expanding on the skillset as the game moves forward.

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#82  Edited By SambaLele
Member since 2004 • 5552 Posts

@PurpleMan5000 said:

@SambaLele said:

@PurpleMan5000 said:

@Shewgenja said:

Anyone playing the Demon/Dark Souls series is glad you are wrong.

Those games are just bad, though.

Now that they've been repeated to death, yes. But at the time of the first Demon's Souls, it was a very refreshing experience from the regen health FPSes that were flooding the market.

Eh. I could only stomach a few hours of Demon's Souls. There are plenty of games that aren't FPS that are a lot of fun while being challenging. From last gen, Ninja Gaiden 2, Bayonetta, Valkyria Chronicles, and The Last Remnant come to mind.

I wasn't talking about challenge though. I meantioned FPS because they were the best example of the standard at the time, but many other games were like those: there's only a slight punishment for failing. I mean, punishment is not a crucial gameplay element.

From the list you provided, you mention 2 very fast paced action-adventure/hack 'n slash games (which I also like very much, I own Bayonetta for example). The only point where they are similar to Demon's Souls is the importance of timing. Maybe you didn't enjoy Demon's Souls because it's such a slow paced game. It's only challenging if you're not playing it with discipline and patiente. You don't even need a good character build, nor grinding. It demands a different type of skill, though a perfect timing helps as much as in other action games.

Difference is the fun is greater the more you risk losing when dying. The expectation of punishment is a key gameplay element. Because you may actually waste your time. In every game, if you lose money or experience, you're actually losing the time you spent on acquiring that. But normally you lose a few minutes. In this game, sometimes you may only lose the few seconds it took to get those hundreds of souls... but sometimes you risk losing hours of gameplay. The risk is a good part of the fun. So much so that when I felt like I was never going to die again in the game, I stopped playing it, it lost it's appeal. If you don't get a kick out of that... the game just isn't for you, but that doesn't make it a bad game.

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#83  Edited By PurpleMan5000
Member since 2011 • 10531 Posts

@SambaLele said:

@PurpleMan5000 said:

@SambaLele said:

@PurpleMan5000 said:

@Shewgenja said:

Anyone playing the Demon/Dark Souls series is glad you are wrong.

Those games are just bad, though.

Now that they've been repeated to death, yes. But at the time of the first Demon's Souls, it was a very refreshing experience from the regen health FPSes that were flooding the market.

Eh. I could only stomach a few hours of Demon's Souls. There are plenty of games that aren't FPS that are a lot of fun while being challenging. From last gen, Ninja Gaiden 2, Bayonetta, Valkyria Chronicles, and The Last Remnant come to mind.

I wasn't talking about challenge though. I meantioned FPS because they were the best example of the standard at the time, but many other games were like those: there's only a slight punishment for failing. I mean, punishment is not a crucial gameplay element.

From the list you provided, you mention 2 very fast paced action-adventure/hack 'n slash games (which I also like very much, I own Bayonetta for example). The only point where they are similar to Demon's Souls is the importance of timing. Maybe you didn't enjoy Demon's Souls because it's such a slow paced game. It's only challenging if you're not playing it with discipline and patiente. You don't even need a good character build, nor grinding. It demands a different type of skill, though a perfect timing helps as much as in other action games.

Difference is the fun is greater the more you risk losing when dying. The expectation of punishment is a key gameplay element. Because you may actually waste your time. In every game, if you lose money or experience, you're actually losing the time you spent on acquiring that. But normally you lose a few minutes. In this game, sometimes you may only lose the few seconds it took to get those hundreds of souls... but sometimes you risk losing hours of gameplay. The risk is a good part of the fun. So much so that when I felt like I was never going to die again in the game, I stopped playing it, it lost it's appeal. If you don't get a kick out of that... the game just isn't for you, but that doesn't make it a bad game.

My problem with the game was mostly the slow pace, yes. I didn't like how every enemy attack was completely telegraphed to the point where I could run up to one, wait for it to begin its animation, backpedal, then counter-attack. It wasn't so bad the first time through, but when you get to the point where the game starts to have hard sections, repeating the easy sections just gets incredibly tedious and not fun. It takes way too long to get back to the fun part. I prefer fast-paced games where you master a control scheme to slow paced games where you master things like timing telegraphed animations and figure out where to stand so the poor enemy AI will not be able to hit you with fireballs. Most of my issues with the game could have been fixed with a turn-based battle system. The game would have to give you a more reasonable number of hit points for that to work, but the game still could have been difficult, and it would allow for a party of characters instead of just the one that you create.

Also, good or bad is completely subjective. I realize that tons of people like the series and have no problem whatsoever with that, but people shouldn't say that games they don't like are good games. That is a big problem with video game reviews as a whole.

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#84 SambaLele
Member since 2004 • 5552 Posts

@PurpleMan5000 said:

Also, good or bad is completely subjective. I realize that tons of people like the series and have no problem whatsoever with that, but people shouldn't say that games they don't like are good games. That is a big problem with video game reviews as a whole.

I deleted the bigger part of your post because I agree with all that. Actually, I stopped playing the series because of that. It got repetitive. Anyway, every game is just a set of rules. which you eventually figure out, and it may lose it's fun when that happens, instantly or gradually. But I did enjoy the run I had with Demon's Souls. More than that though, and this is coming back to the topic, I think it sent a good message to the industry when it sold great even though it was contrary to the trends. This may have something to do with what to us is the outside perspective of a japanese developer, not used to the dogmas and conventions associated with great sales.

The quoted part of your post, though, I disagree with. But I guess diving into that is going off-topic.

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#85 lordlors
Member since 2004 • 6128 Posts
@Aljosa23 said:

@lordlors said:
@StrifeDelivery said:

@lordlors said:

@StrifeDelivery said:

@lordlors said:

I don't care what people want to play or enjoy. What I care about is people deeming Japan as a very important nation in the video game industry when the video game industry of Japan seems to be insular and ignorant of things outside its borders. I'm arguing that Japan wasn't really that important and influential and now is even becoming more irrelevant. I still can't fathom why a lot of Japanese gamers don't know what Starcraft is or C&C or WoW or DoTA. Ask other Asian gamers and most likely they will know.

Wait... let me get this straight. You're trying to say that Japan wasn't that important with regards to the history of the video game industry?

If that is your stance...yikes.

Not really. They were very important during the NES until PS era but you have to look at the state of Western game development at that time. The Japanese abandoned the PC and went for consoles while the Western devs went for PC. Once the Western devs with great knowledge of PC game development delved into consoles, it was all over for Japan. The Japanese made game engines for each game unlike the West which already signaled an imminent downfall. The West made a web of sharing of information between devs while in Japan the devs practiced secrecy. Because of the limitation of the controller of a console compared to a KB/mouse, the FPS and RTS genre never flourished in Japan which would have given birth to sub-genres. They made something great but didn't go further. The insularity of the nation will cause its video game industry's decadence and further irrelevancy. In other words, even when Japan was at its top, it was really the West running the show.

So they weren't important during Gen 6, with what, 3 out of the 4 console makers being Japanese companies (Sega, Nintendo, and Sony) and the PS2 being the largest selling console of all time?

It's easy to take this blob entity known as "Western" devs which pretty much almost means the world with regards to game development (North America, the whole of Europe, etc.) vs. the small country of Japan.

What I meant by important and influential is not by sales but by which creating something that made the video game industry progressed. Game engines like id tech and source, digital distribution like Steam, the IGDA, etc. All Japan ever contributed that truly had a lasting effect on the industry was reviving the consoles. Great games? It is the system and the structure in place that will give birth to them that is more important and more influential. I know you think it's unfair to compare a single country to a region but people hail Japan as if it has contributed as much as the West has.

Important and influential stuff Japan has made and/or contributed to:

- The analog stick

- Popularized handheld gaming

- Dpad

- Endless list of genres created by Japanese developers

- Online gaming on consoles (the SNES had it then the Dreamcast)

- Disc media on consoles

- Free camera independent of the character (in Super Mario 64)

etc. etc.

They have certainly contributed to gaming as much as the West has, maybe more in other areas. To think otherwise is just bizarre.

The controller and the disc media which in the end is still related to the console hardware, I'll give you that but "endless" list of genres created by the Japanese? lol what are they, pray tell?

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#86  Edited By SambaLele
Member since 2004 • 5552 Posts

@lordlors said:
@Aljosa23 said:

Important and influential stuff Japan has made and/or contributed to:

- The analog stick

- Popularized handheld gaming

- Dpad

- Endless list of genres created by Japanese developers

- Online gaming on consoles (the SNES had it then the Dreamcast)

- Disc media on consoles

- Free camera independent of the character (in Super Mario 64)

etc. etc.

They have certainly contributed to gaming as much as the West has, maybe more in other areas. To think otherwise is just bizarre.

The controller and the disc media which in the end is still related to the console hardware, I'll give you that but "endless" list of genres created by the Japanese? lol what are they, pray tell?

Endless is farfetched even for western devs. Let's see what the japanese did for the industry though.

The 90's are considered the golden age for japanese influence in the gaming market and popular culture in general. So this is supposed to be the apex of their influence on gaming.

"During the golden age, Japanese developers performed three functions: they created game genres, they perfected existing game genres, and they invented the idea that games could have film genres."

- Mark I. West (The Japanification of Children's Popular Culture: From Godzilla to Miyazaki; 2008).

But what about before that? Genres they created:

- Fighting games. This is considered the very first one (1976). Though some think that Karate Champ should be considered the first one. Though almost everyone agrees that it was really perfected and popularized with Street Fighter II.

- Stealth games. First one being a Sega game. Genre was perfected and turned mainstream by Japanese developer & director Hideo Kojima with the Metal Gear series (though he consider the series 'tactical espionage action' and not just 'stealth').

- Rhythm games. The first truly rhythm game (not dance aerobics or similar software) is Parappa the Rapper, followed by Beatmania, Dance Dance Revolution, DrumMania, GuitarFreaks, etc. The genre, though, in the instrument sub-genre, wasn't perfected and truly popularized by Japanese, but by Harmonix with Guitar Hero.

- Shoot 'em ups. Space Invaders is a Taito creation. Midway only published it in the west.

- Beat 'em ups. This is the first one. Then came Double Dragon, Battletoads, etc.

- Maybe platform games. Because there's some controversy between Space Panic and Donkey Kong. But the first scrolling platform is the Japanese game Jump Bug.

- Psychological horror. This is not survival horror, and Silent Hill is regarded as the first one in the genre.

And genres they perfected and popularized, though they didn't create them:

- Survival horror. The first true survival horror (not just an horror-adventure or mistery game) was Alone in the Dark. From the concepts brought by this game Capcom made Resident Evil, that truly made the genre mainstream.

- Maze games. Though the genre is a western creation, Pac-Man popularized it and is a Namco creation.

Ok, now I'm lazy to search for more on sports and racing genres in general. But for the time being, that seems like a pretty relevant list of japanese creations or innovations in gaming's history.

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#87 Krelian-co
Member since 2006 • 13274 Posts

I am sure japan cares about you rethinking their place TC!

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#88 jsmoke03
Member since 2004 • 13717 Posts

i'm sensing people here arent looking at gaming from their side or factoring their culture.

just like some of you dont like anime, a lot of japanese gamers dont like western rpg/ fps etc.... i dont know why some of you dont look at it that way.

if western themed games are the dominant type of games releasing on consoles...can you really blame the japanese for not buying games they arent really that interested in? what if pc and consoles released mostly japanese themed games?

they like their mobile gaming because thats where most of the best japanese developed games are being released. wouldnt it be the same for western gamers if the same thing were flip flopped?

their position in the industry is that they are the leading consumers of handheld and they like dating sims/jrpgs/ beat em ups etc....