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[QUOTE="finalfantasy94"]
[QUOTE="skrat_01"]It's Gears of War 2 all over again. Oh boy.skrat_01
wait people thought there was an emotional part in that game?
Yep.Players and Epic.
I can't remember people thinking what happened in Gears 2 was successful. In any case, Halo 4 is far from Gears of War 2's attempt at gravitas.Halo has great storytelling, great dialogue and characters. You just have some other reason for not thinking it. Like a petty resentment of the series or you don't like why so many others like it.It really doesn't in any sense of what you're saying (though I can't speak for ODST or Halo 4). I'd honestly enjoy it if you argued otherwise.As far as quality goes, Halo has always been right up there.
lightleggy
Still have to play To the Moon, constantly hearing praise about it, still to this day. I've been put off by enough horrible pretentious, angsty anime - as much as I've seen some really excellent stuff, and the same goes for games (though I never cared for Final Fantasy or have tried to touted Persona games), but I'd recommend Catherine. It falls into a few trappings, but it's honestly one of the best games I've played this year. It's Qubert with a theme of infidelity and some excellent writing and really memorable characters; and better yet it's a game that I've seen surprise people who aren't familiar with games, to people who know them back to front. Pretty good stuff. Also, Deadly Premonition. On a mechanical level there's so much wrong with it, and the climax is something else entirely - but that doesn't matter. It's that strong blend of a Japanese interpretation of North America and Twin Peaks, with their own sensibilities coursing right through it. It's great.Yeah, this. I knew it could have said it better lol.
The thing is, To the Moon just reminds me a lot of Voices of a Distant Star, 5cm Per Second, and The Children Who Chase Lost Voices. those Makoto Shinkai movies are in their own way fascinating, but it's like junior high league of stories and storytelling.
I swear, if To the Moon is written and designed by an Asian dude, I'mma throw a -.... :| .
I totally have psychic powers.
FrozenLiquid
I can't remember people thinking what happened in Gears 2 was successful. In any case, Halo 4 is far from Gears of War 2's attempt at gravitas. FrozenLiquidIt was intended to be successful, I remember the hoopla about Epic trying to create a more 'emotionally engaging narrative', and that being a unique spin on the campaign; and I remember a good amount of threads on GS and a few on other boards. It's a chuckle - I still absolutely adore the 'Dom and his wife' photo keepsake that came with the special edition. Seriously, they thought it was going to be that 'emotionally engaging' they made a physcial keepsake. Now that is beautiful. But I'm glad to hear it about Halo 4, really glad; just the hyperbole thrown around is always funny. I'm just waiting for the 'love story between Alyx and Gordon is the greatest story in gaming this gen' threads when Half Life 3 news comes around. Hooo boy.
[QUOTE="FrozenLiquid"]I can't remember people thinking what happened in Gears 2 was successful. In any case, Halo 4 is far from Gears of War 2's attempt at gravitas. skrat_01It was intended to be successful, I remember the hoopla about Epic trying to create a more 'emotionally engaging narrative', and that being a unique spin on the campaign; and I remember a good amount of threads on GS and a few on other boards. It's a chuckle - I still absolutely adore the 'Dom and his wife' photo keepsake that came with the special edition. Seriously, they thought it was going to be that 'emotionally engaging' they made a physcial keepsake. Now that is beautiful. But I'm glad to hear it about Halo 4, really glad; just the hyperbole thrown around is always funny. I'm just waiting for the 'love story between Alyx and Gordon is the greatest story in gaming this gen' threads when Half Life 3 news comes around. Hooo boy. All dem fools who don't understand good writing. The love story in Halo 4 was physically painful and more than a little weird. At least Bungie knew enough to make it there, but subtle and "I've always wanted to touch you." Ick.
[QUOTE="skrat_01"][QUOTE="FrozenLiquid"]I can't remember people thinking what happened in Gears 2 was successful. In any case, Halo 4 is far from Gears of War 2's attempt at gravitas. DarkLink77It was intended to be successful, I remember the hoopla about Epic trying to create a more 'emotionally engaging narrative', and that being a unique spin on the campaign; and I remember a good amount of threads on GS and a few on other boards. It's a chuckle - I still absolutely adore the 'Dom and his wife' photo keepsake that came with the special edition. Seriously, they thought it was going to be that 'emotionally engaging' they made a physcial keepsake. Now that is beautiful. But I'm glad to hear it about Halo 4, really glad; just the hyperbole thrown around is always funny. I'm just waiting for the 'love story between Alyx and Gordon is the greatest story in gaming this gen' threads when Half Life 3 news comes around. Hooo boy. All dem fools who don't understand good writing. The love story in Halo 4 was physically painful and more than a little weird. At least Bungie knew enough to make it there, but subtle and "I've always wanted to touch you." Ick. Ok, really I don't see any romantic love between MC and Cortana. At most it's a sibling bond of love. And don't try to say bungie did it right. The massively dropped the ball on character growth in Halo.
[QUOTE="dreman999"][QUOTE="DarkLink77"] All dem fools who don't understand good writing. The love story in Halo 4 was physically painful and more than a little weird. At least Bungie knew enough to make it there, but subtle and "I've always wanted to touch you." Ick.DarkLink77Ok, really I don't see any romantic love between MC and Cortana. At most it's a sibling bond of love. And don't try to say bungie did it right. The massively dropped the ball on character growth in Halo. They did their relationship right. And they didn't do the character growth thing because they weren't interested in the Chief as a person. They were interested in him as a symbol.As sym..really? They kinda dropped the ball on that, too. Hell, Noble 6 was more a symbol than Chief (one that actually worked).
Now it just sounds like you're looking for every petty excuse to elevate Bungie over 343.
[QUOTE="dreman999"][QUOTE="DarkLink77"] They did their relationship right. And they didn't do the character growth thing because they weren't interested in the Chief as a person. They were interested in him as a symbol.DarkLink77The did the relation ship right...In HALO 4. And what symbol did they make MC, he was not dynamic in any way, Just a big human size tank of a man. I can at least say they did a great job in Halo ce with the story but everything after was just not there. Halo 3 did it better, honestly. Halo 4 is so corny. Neither of them actually evolves as characters. Cortana loses her mind and the Chief is worried about her. Same as in Halo 3, but in Halo 3 I didn't have to deal with space magic and Cortana's need for physical interaction (which was dumb). Bungie portrayed him as a mythic hero. He wasn't dynamic because he wasn't supposed to be a dynamic character. He was supposed to inspire awe in his allies, inspire the player into believing that the Chief could single-handedly win the war, and fear in his enemies. How was Halo4 corny. How else is someone going to act when they slowly watch someone they care for die slowly. And clearly Halo 4 had more character growth then the other 4 halo game. We see MC in his most vulnerable, witnessing a slowly die Cortana an not being able to stop it. Sorry, but that tops Halo 3'S character growth that just has a vague Cortana pop up now and again only to find her and see her act that same way as before like nothing happened.
Also, you still notgetting it Mythic heros are dynamic. The have character. Bungie did a great job of dealing with th epic battles but a horrible jobat making an epic character.
They did their relationship right. And they didn't do the character growth thing because they weren't interested in the Chief as a person. They were interested in him as a symbol.As sym..really? They kinda dropped the ball on that, too. Hell, Noble 6 was more a symbol than Chief (one that actually worked).[QUOTE="DarkLink77"][QUOTE="dreman999"] Ok, really I don't see any romantic love between MC and Cortana. At most it's a sibling bond of love. And don't try to say bungie did it right. The massively dropped the ball on character growth in Halo.FireSpirit117
Now it just sounds like you're looking for every petty excuse to elevate Bungie over 343.
And you're making yourself look like a tool, brah. You should know that when I say something, I'm serious.
Not really. I'll admit what 343 did right, but the story wasn't it.
And yeah, as a symbol. Um... duh. That's kind of the whole point. Were you just not paying attention when every character in the story treats him with nothingless than outright awe?
As sym..really? They kinda dropped the ball on that, too. Hell, Noble 6 was more a symbol than Chief (one that actually worked).[QUOTE="FireSpirit117"]
[QUOTE="DarkLink77"] They did their relationship right. And they didn't do the character growth thing because they weren't interested in the Chief as a person. They were interested in him as a symbol.DarkLink77
Now it just sounds like you're looking for every petty excuse to elevate Bungie over 343.
And you're making yourself look like a tool, brah. You should know that when I say something, I'm serious.
Not really. I'll admit what 343 did right, but the story wasn't it.
And yeah, as a symbol. Um... duh. That's kind of the whole point. Were you just not paying attention when every character in the story treats him with nothingless than outright awe?
It does not matter how other treat him. What matter is how he acts. What makes a character epic is not just ability but how they act. Sorry but it just feels that you can switch MC with anyone else with the same abilities and you'll get the same results.Halo 3 did it better, honestly. Halo 4 is so corny. Neither of them actually evolves as characters. Cortana loses her mind and the Chief is worried about her. Same as in Halo 3, but in Halo 3 I didn't have to deal with space magic and Cortana's need for physical interaction (which was dumb). Bungie portrayed him as a mythic hero. He wasn't dynamic because he wasn't supposed to be a dynamic character. He was supposed to inspire awe in his allies, inspire the player into believing that the Chief could single-handedly win the war, and fear in his enemies. How was Halo4 corny. How else is someone going to act when they slowly watch someone they care for die slowly. And clearly Halo 4 had more character growth then the other 4 halo game. We see MC in his most vulnerable, witnessing a slowly die Cortana an not being able to stop it. Sorry, but that tops Halo 3'S character growth that just has a vague Cortana pop up now and again only to find her and see her act that same way as before like nothing happened.[QUOTE="DarkLink77"][QUOTE="dreman999"] The did the relation ship right...In HALO 4. And what symbol did they make MC, he was not dynamic in any way, Just a big human size tank of a man. I can at least say they did a great job in Halo ce with the story but everything after was just not there.dreman999
Also, you still notgetting it Mythic heros are dynamic. The have character. Bungie did a great job of dealing with th epic battles but a horrible jobat making an epic character.
How was in not corny? We'll forget the the parts where a lot of the emotional heartstring-pulls are just outright wrong (as in cannot happen), but there only difference is that the Chief speaks more in 4 (less boday language characterization), and Cortana is actually full-on Rampant. She's not in Halo 3. She's just being controlled by the Gravemind.[QUOTE="DarkLink77"][QUOTE="FireSpirit117"]As sym..really? They kinda dropped the ball on that, too. Hell, Noble 6 was more a symbol than Chief (one that actually worked).
Now it just sounds like you're looking for every petty excuse to elevate Bungie over 343.
dreman999
And you're making yourself look like a tool, brah. You should know that when I say something, I'm serious.
Not really. I'll admit what 343 did right, but the story wasn't it.
And yeah, as a symbol. Um... duh. That's kind of the whole point. Were you just not paying attention when every character in the story treats him with nothingless than outright awe?
It does not matter how other treat him. What matter is how he acts. What makes a character epic is not just ability but how they act. Sorry but it just feels that you can switch MC with anyone else with the same abilities and you'll get the same results. It doesn't matter how others treat him. :| Okay, I'm done discussing this with you.[QUOTE="dreman999"][QUOTE="DarkLink77"]It does not matter how other treat him. What matter is how he acts. What makes a character epic is not just ability but how they act. Sorry but it just feels that you can switch MC with anyone else with the same abilities and you'll get the same results. It doesn't matter how others treat him. :| Okay, I'm done discussing this with you.But it does. What make an epic character is how he acts not how other treat him. A character does no become a symbolic because people solute him.And you're making yourself look like a tool, brah. You should know that when I say something, I'm serious.
Not really. I'll admit what 343 did right, but the story wasn't it.
And yeah, as a symbol. Um... duh. That's kind of the whole point. Were you just not paying attention when every character in the story treats him with nothingless than outright awe?
DarkLink77
[QUOTE="dreman999"]How was Halo4 corny. How else is someone going to act when they slowly watch someone they care for die slowly. And clearly Halo 4 had more character growth then the other 4 halo game. We see MC in his most vulnerable, witnessing a slowly die Cortana an not being able to stop it. Sorry, but that tops Halo 3'S character growth that just has a vague Cortana pop up now and again only to find her and see her act that same way as before like nothing happened.[QUOTE="DarkLink77"] Halo 3 did it better, honestly. Halo 4 is so corny. Neither of them actually evolves as characters. Cortana loses her mind and the Chief is worried about her. Same as in Halo 3, but in Halo 3 I didn't have to deal with space magic and Cortana's need for physical interaction (which was dumb). Bungie portrayed him as a mythic hero. He wasn't dynamic because he wasn't supposed to be a dynamic character. He was supposed to inspire awe in his allies, inspire the player into believing that the Chief could single-handedly win the war, and fear in his enemies. DarkLink77
Also, you still notgetting it Mythic heros are dynamic. The have character. Bungie did a great job of dealing with th epic battles but a horrible jobat making an epic character.
How was in not corny? We'll forget the the parts where a lot of the emotional heartstring-pulls are just outright wrong (as in cannot happen), but there only difference is that the Chief speaks more in 4 (less boday language characterization), and Cortana is actually full-on Rampant. She's not in Halo 3. She's just being controlled by the Gravemind. That does not make it corny. MC clearly is a stiff military person. In Halo 4 it made clear. And Cortana is going mad while dying. How else is she going to act? And about Halo 3...That is still not character growth.As sym..really? They kinda dropped the ball on that, too. Hell, Noble 6 was more a symbol than Chief (one that actually worked).[QUOTE="FireSpirit117"]
[QUOTE="DarkLink77"] They did their relationship right. And they didn't do the character growth thing because they weren't interested in the Chief as a person. They were interested in him as a symbol.DarkLink77
Now it just sounds like you're looking for every petty excuse to elevate Bungie over 343.
And you're making yourself look like a tool, brah. You should know that when I say something, I'm serious.
Not really. I'll admit what 343 did right, but the story wasn't it.
And yeah, as a symbol. Um... duh. That's kind of the whole point. Were you just not paying attention when every character in the story treats him with nothingless than outright awe?
Gordon Freeman gets that same treatment from his peers, but unless there's enough "character" in the character I'm controlling to make me, as a random player, believe it all, I just don't buy it. Granted Chief still had more character than Gordan ever did, but that still wasn't saying much.And tool, huh? Getting a little personal here, don't you think?
[QUOTE="DarkLink77"]
[QUOTE="FireSpirit117"]As sym..really? They kinda dropped the ball on that, too. Hell, Noble 6 was more a symbol than Chief (one that actually worked).
Now it just sounds like you're looking for every petty excuse to elevate Bungie over 343.
FireSpirit117
And you're making yourself look like a tool, brah. You should know that when I say something, I'm serious.
Not really. I'll admit what 343 did right, but the story wasn't it.
And yeah, as a symbol. Um... duh. That's kind of the whole point. Were you just not paying attention when every character in the story treats him with nothingless than outright awe?
Gordon Freeman gets that same treatment from his peers, but unless there's enough "character" in the character I'm controlling to make me, as a random player, believe it all, I just don't buy it. Granted Chief still had more character than Gordan ever did, but that's still not saying much.And tool, huh? Getting a little personal here, don't you think?
freeman isn't a character. he's an empty shell[QUOTE="DarkLink77"][QUOTE="dreman999"] How was Halo4 corny. How else is someone going to act when they slowly watch someone they care for die slowly. And clearly Halo 4 had more character growth then the other 4 halo game. We see MC in his most vulnerable, witnessing a slowly die Cortana an not being able to stop it. Sorry, but that tops Halo 3'S character growth that just has a vague Cortana pop up now and again only to find her and see her act that same way as before like nothing happened.How was in not corny? We'll forget the the parts where a lot of the emotional heartstring-pulls are just outright wrong (as in cannot happen), but there only difference is that the Chief speaks more in 4 (less boday language characterization), and Cortana is actually full-on Rampant. She's not in Halo 3. She's just being controlled by the Gravemind. That does not make it corny. MC clearly is a stiff military person. In Halo 4 it made clear. And Cortana is going mad while dying. How else is she going to act? And about Halo 3...That is still not character growth. She's not. But she doesn't develop as a character while going mad. She's still Cortana. Chief is still Chief. Being sad because your friend is dying is not character development. Never said it was, so no idea where you're getting that from.Also, you still notgetting it Mythic heros are dynamic. The have character. Bungie did a great job of dealing with th epic battles but a horrible jobat making an epic character.
dreman999
[QUOTE="FireSpirit117"]Gordon Freeman gets that same treatment from his peers, but unless there's enough "character" in the character I'm controlling to make me, as a random player, believe it all, I just don't buy it. Granted Chief still had more character than Gordan ever did, but that's still not saying much.[QUOTE="DarkLink77"]
And you're making yourself look like a tool, brah. You should know that when I say something, I'm serious.
Not really. I'll admit what 343 did right, but the story wasn't it.
And yeah, as a symbol. Um... duh. That's kind of the whole point. Were you just not paying attention when every character in the story treats him with nothingless than outright awe?
mems_1224
And tool, huh? Getting a little personal here, don't you think?
freeman isn't a character. he's an empty shell My point.[QUOTE="DarkLink77"]
[QUOTE="FireSpirit117"]As sym..really? They kinda dropped the ball on that, too. Hell, Noble 6 was more a symbol than Chief (one that actually worked).
Now it just sounds like you're looking for every petty excuse to elevate Bungie over 343.
FireSpirit117
And you're making yourself look like a tool, brah. You should know that when I say something, I'm serious.
Not really. I'll admit what 343 did right, but the story wasn't it.
And yeah, as a symbol. Um... duh. That's kind of the whole point. Were you just not paying attention when every character in the story treats him with nothingless than outright awe?
Gordon Freeman gets that same treatment from his peers, but unless there's enough "character" in the character I'm controlling to make me, as a random player, believe it all, I just don't buy it. Granted Chief still had more character than Gordan ever did, but that still wasn't saying much.And tool, huh? Getting a little personal here, don't you think?
You don't buy that the Chief is a symbol? How is this hard to grasp? That's exactly what he is. That's how he has always been portrayed. It's not like he didn't do anything to earn it. I mean FFS, all he does is overcome the impossible. Maybe. But then again, maybe you ought to not say stupid sh!t like what you said.[QUOTE="lightleggy"]Halo has great storytelling, great dialogue and characters. You just have some other reason for not thinking it. Like a petty resentment of the series or you don't like why so many others like it.It really doesn't in any sense of what you're saying (though I can't speak for ODST or Halo 4). I'd honestly enjoy it if you argued otherwise.As far as quality goes, Halo has always been right up there.
skrat_01
Still have to play To the Moon, constantly hearing praise about it, still to this day. I've been put off by enough horrible pretentious, angsty anime - as much as I've seen some really excellent stuff, and the same goes for games (though I never cared for Final Fantasy or have tried to touted Persona games), but I'd recommend Catherine. It falls into a few trappings, but it's honestly one of the best games I've played this year. It's Qubert with a theme of infidelity and some excellent writing and really memorable characters; and better yet it's a game that I've seen surprise people who aren't familiar with games, to people who know them back to front. Pretty good stuff. Also, Deadly Premonition. On a mechanical level there's so much wrong with it, and the climax is something else entirely - but that doesn't matter. It's that strong blend of a Japanese interpretation of North America and Twin Peaks, with their own sensibilities coursing right through it. It's great. I love me some Catherine.Yeah, this. I knew it could have said it better lol.
The thing is, To the Moon just reminds me a lot of Voices of a Distant Star, 5cm Per Second, and The Children Who Chase Lost Voices. those Makoto Shinkai movies are in their own way fascinating, but it's like junior high league of stories and storytelling.
I swear, if To the Moon is written and designed by an Asian dude, I'mma throw a -.... :| .
I totally have psychic powers.
FrozenLiquid
And what symbol did they make MCdreman999Essentially he was the UNSC's Superman.
Essentially he was the UNSC's Superman.[QUOTE="dreman999"] And what symbol did they make MCjg4xchamp
Finally, someone who was paying attention.
[QUOTE="FireSpirit117"]Gordon Freeman gets that same treatment from his peers, but unless there's enough "character" in the character I'm controlling to make me, as a random player, believe it all, I just don't buy it. Granted Chief still had more character than Gordan ever did, but that still wasn't saying much.[QUOTE="DarkLink77"]
And you're making yourself look like a tool, brah. You should know that when I say something, I'm serious.
Not really. I'll admit what 343 did right, but the story wasn't it.
And yeah, as a symbol. Um... duh. That's kind of the whole point. Were you just not paying attention when every character in the story treats him with nothingless than outright awe?
DarkLink77
And tool, huh? Getting a little personal here, don't you think?
You don't buy that the Chief is a symbol? How is this hard to grasp? That's exactly what he is. That's how he has always been portrayed. It's not like he didn't do anything to earn it. I mean FFS, all he does is overcome the impossible. Maybe. But then again, maybe you ought to not say stupid sh!t like what you said.Of course he is to me, but that's mostly because I have background knowledge. He's a symbol to everyone in that universe, sure, but to the average player who just walks into the game without any background knowledge of MC, he's just some unstoppable killing machine who's fun to play as. The End. Nothing else worth idolizing beyond that point.
Yeah I was passionate when I said that and I'm sorry if I offended you. Still, alot of what you say in regards to Halo 4 DOES usually equate to "Bungie is everything that is right" while "343 is everything that is wrong", almost to the point where it's too cartoonish to sound reasonable. "Reasonable" is the key word here, like you don't like the guy I chat with on XBL. I wouldn't mind it if it were just on SW and the GUFU boards you know for fun, but even on a PM I can't get a straight opinion fromyou, even after I gave you mine. How do you think that makes me feel, dude? :?
[QUOTE="DarkLink77"]
Of course he is to me, but that's mostly because I have background knowledge. He's a symbol to everyone in that universe, sure, but to the average player who just walks into the game without any background knowledge of MC, he's just some unstoppable killing machine who's fun to play as. The End. Nothing else worth idolizing beyond that point.FireSpirit117
Yeah I was kpassionate when I said that and I'm sorry if I offended you. Still, alot of what you say in regards to Halo 4 DOES usually equates to "Bungie is everything that is right" while "343 is everything that is wrong", almost to the point where it's too cartoonish to sound reasonable. I wouldn't mind it if it were just on SW and the GUFU boards you know for fun, but even on a PM I can't get a straight opinion you, even after I gave you mine. How do you think that makes me feel, dude?
In terms of 'symbols' - or I suppose the correct term is 'archetype' - you don't learn their character. They just happen to be. With archetypes, there's no reason to know any background knowledge of them, especially hero characters. In that regard, Master Chief is the symbol for going against all odds and saving the day.
What actually undermined Bungie's original intentions was the expansion of the universe. The more detailed and intricate you get, the less archetypal everything is. Halo was the typical humans vs aliens thing. The EU stuff was not. Bungie tried to keep it simple in their Halo games without too much collateral damage to the EU. 343i have totally abandoned the concept of epic archetypal storytelling and have gone for.... a more soap opera approach?
Anyway that's the difference between the two portrayals.
You don't buy that the Chief is a symbol? How is this hard to grasp? That's exactly what he is. That's how he has always been portrayed. It's not like he didn't do anything to earn it. I mean FFS, all he does is overcome the impossible. Maybe. But then again, maybe you ought to not say stupid sh!t like what you said.[QUOTE="DarkLink77"][QUOTE="FireSpirit117"]Gordon Freeman gets that same treatment from his peers, but unless there's enough "character" in the character I'm controlling to make me, as a random player, believe it all, I just don't buy it. Granted Chief still had more character than Gordan ever did, but that still wasn't saying much.
And tool, huh? Getting a little personal here, don't you think?
FireSpirit117
Of course he is to me, but that's mostly because I have background knowledge. He's a symbol to everyone in that universe, sure, but to the average player who just walks into the game without any background knowledge of MC, he's just some unstoppable killing machine who's fun to play as. The End. Nothing else worth idolizing beyond that point.
Yeah I was kpassionate when I said that and I'm sorry if I offended you. Still, alot of what you say in regards to Halo 4 DOES usually equates to "Bungie is everything that is right" while "343 is everything that is wrong", almost to the point where it's too cartoonish to sound reasonable. I wouldn't mind it if it were just on SW and the GUFU boards you know for fun, but even on a PM I can't get a straight opinion you, even after I gave you mine. How do you think that makes me feel, dude?
I don't think that's true given how iconic the Chief has become in gaming (and popular) culture.
I mean, just look at the ads for Halo 3. The tagline for the game was "Believe." There's a reason that was the tagline. There's a reason they did the diorama, and the one with the old man narrating his experience at that battle. I mean, take Starry Night. Johnson's are all, "Any sign of the Chief?"
And that other marine's all, "Negative, Sarge. I think we lost him."
Then the Chief's all, "Not yet."
Then he jumps into a squad of 15 Brutes (I counted), one of whom is a Chieftan, and at least two Wraiths, with nothing but an assault rifle and a pistol. And as a fan, there is absolutely no doubt in your mind who wins that.
I mean, there's a reason Bungie ended Halo 3 (non-Legendary ending) with the camera zooming in on the "117" someone carved into that monument.
It's because he's a symbol. It's because, as a player, you believe (and the entire cast believes) that he can do the impossible and win the war by himself. He's basically the personifcation of hope in Bungie's trilogy. He's the guy everyone "Believe"s in. If that's not a character as a symbol, I don't know what is.
As for the PM thing, I offered to tell you my unbiased, DarkLink-persona-off opinion and you turned me down. I don't see what you're upset about.
[QUOTE="FireSpirit117"]
[QUOTE="DarkLink77"]
Of course he is to me, but that's mostly because I have background knowledge. He's a symbol to everyone in that universe, sure, but to the average player who just walks into the game without any background knowledge of MC, he's just some unstoppable killing machine who's fun to play as. The End. Nothing else worth idolizing beyond that point.FrozenLiquid
Yeah I was kpassionate when I said that and I'm sorry if I offended you. Still, alot of what you say in regards to Halo 4 DOES usually equates to "Bungie is everything that is right" while "343 is everything that is wrong", almost to the point where it's too cartoonish to sound reasonable. I wouldn't mind it if it were just on SW and the GUFU boards you know for fun, but even on a PM I can't get a straight opinion you, even after I gave you mine. How do you think that makes me feel, dude?
In terms of 'symbols' - or I suppose the correct term is 'archetype' - you don't learn their character. They just happen to be. With archetypes, there's no reason to know any background knowledge of them, especially hero characters. In that regard, Master Chief is the symbol for going against all odds and saving the day.
What actually undermined Bungie's original intentions was the expansion of the universe. The more detailed and intricate you get, the less archetypal everything is. Halo was the typical humans vs aliens thing. The EU stuff was not. Bungie tried to keep it simple in their Halo games without too much collateral damage to the EU. 343i have totally abandoned the concept of epic archetypal storytelling and have gone for.... a more soap opera approach?
Anyway that's the difference between the two portrayals.
Truth. And me, I preferred the epic portrayal. Because I don't think I can name another game that does it (the symbol hero, epic sh!t) that well. Maybe Mass Effect with Shepard. But it's not on the same level. He needs help. The Chief does not.
As sym..really? They kinda dropped the ball on that, too. Hell, Noble 6 was more a symbol than Chief (one that actually worked).[QUOTE="FireSpirit117"]
[QUOTE="DarkLink77"] They did their relationship right. And they didn't do the character growth thing because they weren't interested in the Chief as a person. They were interested in him as a symbol.DarkLink77
Now it just sounds like you're looking for every petty excuse to elevate Bungie over 343.
And you're making yourself look like a tool, brah. You should know that when I say something, I'm serious.
Not really. I'll admit what 343 did right, but the story wasn't it.
And yeah, as a symbol. Um... duh. That's kind of the whole point. Were you just not paying attention when every character in the story treats him with nothingless than outright awe?
I agree, much like how Nathan Hale from Resistance is a symbol for hope and perseverance, and how Joseph Cappeli is a symbol for redemption. Resistance is so deep if you think about it. Deeper than Halo.
[QUOTE="skrat_01"] Still have to play To the Moon, constantly hearing praise about it, still to this day. I've been put off by enough horrible pretentious, angsty anime - as much as I've seen some really excellent stuff, and the same goes for games (though I never cared for Final Fantasy or have tried to touted Persona games), but I'd recommend Catherine. It falls into a few trappings, but it's honestly one of the best games I've played this year. It's Qubert with a theme of infidelity and some excellent writing and really memorable characters; and better yet it's a game that I've seen surprise people who aren't familiar with games, to people who know them back to front. Pretty good stuff. Also, Deadly Premonition. On a mechanical level there's so much wrong with it, and the climax is something else entirely - but that doesn't matter. It's that strong blend of a Japanese interpretation of North America and Twin Peaks, with their own sensibilities coursing right through it. It's great.FrozenLiquidSo just played the trial version of To the Moon..... and oh boy is the dialogue terrible. It feels like it's written by either a high school wannabe or a college freshman trying to get a sitcom going. I feel like the entire game simply aims to be emotionally manipulative, but if there's any merit, it's playing through the actual premise, which is quite similar to Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, though a bit more simple and saccharine.Well, I take it you didn't like Neil.
Well, that's a bummer.
[QUOTE="DarkLink77"]
[QUOTE="FireSpirit117"]As sym..really? They kinda dropped the ball on that, too. Hell, Noble 6 was more a symbol than Chief (one that actually worked).
Now it just sounds like you're looking for every petty excuse to elevate Bungie over 343.
Master_ShakeXXX
And you're making yourself look like a tool, brah. You should know that when I say something, I'm serious.
Not really. I'll admit what 343 did right, but the story wasn't it.
And yeah, as a symbol. Um... duh. That's kind of the whole point. Were you just not paying attention when every character in the story treats him with nothingless than outright awe?
I agree, much like how Nathan Hale from Resistance is a symbol for hope and perseverance, and how Joseph Cappeli is a symbol for redemption. Resistance is so deep if you think about it. Deeper than Halo.
*Waits for Champ to agree*Because that's really what it is. 343 could have made an honest to god majestic work of excellence, and he would have said this.alot of what you say in regards to Halo 4 DOES usually equate to "Bungie is everything that is right" while "343 is everything that is wrong", almost to the point where it's too cartoonish
FireSpirit117
[QUOTE="skrat_01"] Still have to play To the Moon, constantly hearing praise about it, still to this day. I've been put off by enough horrible pretentious, angsty anime - as much as I've seen some really excellent stuff, and the same goes for games (though I never cared for Final Fantasy or have tried to touted Persona games), but I'd recommend Catherine. It falls into a few trappings, but it's honestly one of the best games I've played this year. It's Qubert with a theme of infidelity and some excellent writing and really memorable characters; and better yet it's a game that I've seen surprise people who aren't familiar with games, to people who know them back to front. Pretty good stuff. Also, Deadly Premonition. On a mechanical level there's so much wrong with it, and the climax is something else entirely - but that doesn't matter. It's that strong blend of a Japanese interpretation of North America and Twin Peaks, with their own sensibilities coursing right through it. It's great.FrozenLiquidSo just played the trial version of To the Moon..... and oh boy is the dialogue terrible. It feels like it's written by either a high school wannabe or a college freshman trying to get a sitcom going. I feel like the entire game simply aims to be emotionally manipulative, but if there's any merit, it's playing through the actual premise, which is quite similar to Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, though a bit more simple and saccharine. Yeah, I do want to play Catherine, it looks absolutely legit from everything I've seen. Deadly Premonition too. What did you think of Thirty Flights of Loving?
If you're looking for legendary storytelling in a video game, you gotta go Nier. It pushes the boundries of what we can come to expect from stories in games.
[QUOTE="DarkLink77"]
[QUOTE="FireSpirit117"]As sym..really? They kinda dropped the ball on that, too. Hell, Noble 6 was more a symbol than Chief (one that actually worked).
Now it just sounds like you're looking for every petty excuse to elevate Bungie over 343.
Master_ShakeXXX
And you're making yourself look like a tool, brah. You should know that when I say something, I'm serious.
Not really. I'll admit what 343 did right, but the story wasn't it.
And yeah, as a symbol. Um... duh. That's kind of the whole point. Were you just not paying attention when every character in the story treats him with nothingless than outright awe?
I agree, much like how Nathan Hale from Resistance is a symbol for hope and perseverance, and how Joseph Cappeli is a symbol for redemption. Resistance is so deep if you think about it. Deeper than Halo.
Halo is kiddie pool tier in terms of depth.Because that's really what it is. 343 could have made an honest to god majestic work of excellence, and he would have said this. Nah. If they'd made an honest-to-God masterpiece, I'd hand it to them, and be all "Yep, Bungie holding the series back confirmed." I have no problem admitting something is good when it's good. I'd still enjoy the Bungie games as much and love the fact that they made the series, but I'd be even more excited that my favorite video game series was getting even better. I mean, why would I not be excited for that? But they didn't, and everyone's all, "It's so much better!" when in a lot of ways, it's just not.[QUOTE="FireSpirit117"]
alot of what you say in regards to Halo 4 DOES usually equate to "Bungie is everything that is right" while "343 is everything that is wrong", almost to the point where it's too cartoonish
jg4xchamp
[QUOTE="FireSpirit117"]
[QUOTE="DarkLink77"] You don't buy that the Chief is a symbol? How is this hard to grasp? That's exactly what he is. That's how he has always been portrayed. It's not like he didn't do anything to earn it. I mean FFS, all he does is overcome the impossible. Maybe. But then again, maybe you ought to not say stupid sh!t like what you said.DarkLink77
Of course he is to me, but that's mostly because I have background knowledge. He's a symbol to everyone in that universe, sure, but to the average player who just walks into the game without any background knowledge of MC, he's just some unstoppable killing machine who's fun to play as. The End. Nothing else worth idolizing beyond that point.
Yeah I was kpassionate when I said that and I'm sorry if I offended you. Still, alot of what you say in regards to Halo 4 DOES usually equates to "Bungie is everything that is right" while "343 is everything that is wrong", almost to the point where it's too cartoonish to sound reasonable. I wouldn't mind it if it were just on SW and the GUFU boards you know for fun, but even on a PM I can't get a straight opinion you, even after I gave you mine. How do you think that makes me feel, dude?
I don't think that's true given how iconic the Chief has become in gaming (and popular) culture.
I mean, just look at the ads for Halo 3. The tagline for the game was "Believe." There's a reason that was the tagline. There's a reason they did the diorama, and the one with the old man narrating his experience at that battle. I mean, take Starry Night. Johnson's are all, "Any sign of the Chief?"
And that other marine's all, "Negative, Sarge. I think we lost him."
Then the Chief's all, "Not yet."
Then he jumps into a squad of 15 Brutes (I counted), one of whom is a Chieftan with nothing but an assault rifle and a pistol. And as a fan, there is absolutely no doubt in your mind who wins that.
I mean, there's a reason Bungie ended Halo 3 (non-Legendary ending) with the camera zooming in on the "117" someone carved into that monument.
It's because he's a symbol. It's because, as a player, you believe (and the entire cast believes) that he can do the impossible and win the war by himself. He's basically the personifcation of hope in Bungie's trilogy. He's the guy everyone "Believe"s in. If that's not a character as a symbol, I don't know what is.
As for the PM thing, I offered to tell you my unbiased, DarkLink-persona-off opinion and you turned me down. I don't see what you're upset about.
Dude, I was exatcly where you were 5 years ago when those ads were everywhere, and I felt the same way. But then again, I stil had some background info on the Chief so all that just resonated more.Could have fooled me. To me, it felt like I had spilt my opinion only to get condenscended to by the "persona". Even though I played it off with a laugh or two, it still didn't feel right.
I give credit where they deserve it, and in this case link has a point. What Bungie actually went for and what the extended universe is are two different things on a story level. On a pure game level? They are a company that was fantastic in multiplayer for the most part. When it comes to single player on their best day post 2001 they pumped out something Average. ON THEIR BEST DAY. They are like a slightly better Dice, but at least Dice gets some props for trying something different like Mirror's Edge.
[QUOTE="DarkLink77"]
[QUOTE="FireSpirit117"]
Of course he is to me, but that's mostly because I have background knowledge. He's a symbol to everyone in that universe, sure, but to the average player who just walks into the game without any background knowledge of MC, he's just some unstoppable killing machine who's fun to play as. The End. Nothing else worth idolizing beyond that point.
Yeah I was kpassionate when I said that and I'm sorry if I offended you. Still, alot of what you say in regards to Halo 4 DOES usually equates to "Bungie is everything that is right" while "343 is everything that is wrong", almost to the point where it's too cartoonish to sound reasonable. I wouldn't mind it if it were just on SW and the GUFU boards you know for fun, but even on a PM I can't get a straight opinion you, even after I gave you mine. How do you think that makes me feel, dude?
FireSpirit117
I don't think that's true given how iconic the Chief has become in gaming (and popular) culture.
I mean, just look at the ads for Halo 3. The tagline for the game was "Believe." There's a reason that was the tagline. There's a reason they did the diorama, and the one with the old man narrating his experience at that battle. I mean, take Starry Night. Johnson's are all, "Any sign of the Chief?"
And that other marine's all, "Negative, Sarge. I think we lost him."
Then the Chief's all, "Not yet."
Then he jumps into a squad of 15 Brutes (I counted), one of whom is a Chieftan with nothing but an assault rifle and a pistol. And as a fan, there is absolutely no doubt in your mind who wins that.
I mean, there's a reason Bungie ended Halo 3 (non-Legendary ending) with the camera zooming in on the "117" someone carved into that monument.
It's because he's a symbol. It's because, as a player, you believe (and the entire cast believes) that he can do the impossible and win the war by himself. He's basically the personifcation of hope in Bungie's trilogy. He's the guy everyone "Believe"s in. If that's not a character as a symbol, I don't know what is.
As for the PM thing, I offered to tell you my unbiased, DarkLink-persona-off opinion and you turned me down. I don't see what you're upset about.
Dude, I was exatcly where you were 5 years ago when those ads were everywhere, and I felt the same way. But then again, I stil had some background info on the Chief so all that just resonated more.Could have fooled me. To me, it felt like I had spilt my opinion only to get condenscended to by the "persona". Even though I played it off with a laugh or two, it still didn't feel right.
I never really stopped being there. I thought those ads were really well done. I don't think you need the EU stuff to believe that the Chief can do anything. That's been made pretty obvious in the games. Well, that wasn't the intention at all. Sorry if came off that way. :([QUOTE="Master_ShakeXXX"]
[QUOTE="DarkLink77"]
And you're making yourself look like a tool, brah. You should know that when I say something, I'm serious.
Not really. I'll admit what 343 did right, but the story wasn't it.
And yeah, as a symbol. Um... duh. That's kind of the whole point. Were you just not paying attention when every character in the story treats him with nothingless than outright awe?
jg4xchamp
I agree, much like how Nathan Hale from Resistance is a symbol for hope and perseverance, and how Joseph Cappeli is a symbol for redemption. Resistance is so deep if you think about it. Deeper than Halo.
Halo is kiddie pool tier in terms of depth.:o
The story just sounds so poetic when you put it like that. The Resistance franchise truly is the underrated masterpiece of our generation.
In gimmick: was a masterpiece. jg4xchamp
Well said. Btw I was just playing some Deus Ex HR for the first time and I have two thoughts.
One, the intro level and cinematic was epic. Two, the AI is dumb as hell. When are we going to get a stealth game that delivers believable AI?
[QUOTE="jg4xchamp"]In gimmick: was a masterpiece. Master_ShakeXXX
Well said. Btw I was just playing some Deus Ex HR for the first time and I have two thoughts.
One, the intro level and cinematic was epic. Two, the AI is dumb as hell. When are we going to get a stealth game that delivers believable AI?
>Smart AI >Stealth Game Pick one.[QUOTE="Master_ShakeXXX"][QUOTE="jg4xchamp"]In gimmick: was a masterpiece. DarkLink77
Well said. Btw I was just playing some Deus Ex HR for the first time and I have two thoughts.
One, the intro level and cinematic was epic. Two, the AI is dumb as hell. When are we going to get a stealth game that delivers believable AI?
>Smart AI >Stealth Game Pick one. Chaos Theory and Thief exist.>Smart AI >Stealth Game Pick one. Chaos Theory and Thief exist.[QUOTE="DarkLink77"][QUOTE="Master_ShakeXXX"]
Well said. Btw I was just playing some Deus Ex HR for the first time and I have two thoughts.
One, the intro level and cinematic was epic. Two, the AI is dumb as hell. When are we going to get a stealth game that delivers believable AI?
jg4xchamp
This is true. That opening mission just conveys all the games many little nuances beautifully, and teaches the player how to properly play the game. It's brilliantly executed, well paced, and gets to the point effeciently. And the stage it sets for the rest of the game? Absolutely marvelous.One, the intro level and cinematic was epic.
Master_ShakeXXX
>Smart AI >Stealth Game Pick one. Chaos Theory and Thief exist.[QUOTE="DarkLink77"][QUOTE="Master_ShakeXXX"]
Well said. Btw I was just playing some Deus Ex HR for the first time and I have two thoughts.
One, the intro level and cinematic was epic. Two, the AI is dumb as hell. When are we going to get a stealth game that delivers believable AI?
jg4xchamp
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