If Ps4 and Xbox 720 are weak

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#51 Posted by 04dcarraher (19011 posts) -

[QUOTE="04dcarraher"]

[QUOTE="pelvist"]

Graphics in video games arent going to be getting much better than what they already are now on the PC. The only thing I can see being pushed in future console games is resolution, scale and physics.

clyde46

Not really, There has yet to be a native direct x 11 game built from the ground up for Pc hardware. All we have been getting are multiplatform upscaled games based off of console limits with tacked on direct x 11 features and or games still based off of direct x 9 shader model 3 basis.

Crysis 3 looks like the first DX11 only title.

That may be true, however game design will still be based from console limitations. And continuing the awful aspects of the sequel(2nd).

#52 Posted by ocidax (757 posts) -

[QUOTE="Puckhog04"]The Wii U is sold out everywhere and is backordered for months. Badosh
http://www.gamestop.com/ Front Page. NOW IN STOCK. lul.

Not available again. lul

http://www.gamestop.com/wii-u/consoles/nintendo-wii-u-32gb-deluxe-set/104794

#53 Posted by ziggyww (835 posts) -

[QUOTE="PressXtoJump"]if speculations are correct, the one cell that isnt used inside the core of the ps3 is not for NOTHING, it for you.......the people.......and it could very well be dedicated for spiritual emotion and feeling, hence KARAs outcries.lundy86_4

6 SPEs can be utilized for game development. One is for the OS and one is locked out to increase manufacturing yields.

It actually has 8 SPEs in it. Because most people say 7 because that is what's used for games and you clearly know that one is dedicated towards the OS its understandable to think that it has 6 SPEs for gaming. It does however have 8 and one is for the OS and 7 is for gaming
#54 Posted by lundy86_4 (42687 posts) -

[QUOTE="lundy86_4"]

[QUOTE="PressXtoJump"]if speculations are correct, the one cell that isnt used inside the core of the ps3 is not for NOTHING, it for you.......the people.......and it could very well be dedicated for spiritual emotion and feeling, hence KARAs outcries.ziggyww

6 SPEs can be utilized for game development. One is for the OS and one is locked out to increase manufacturing yields.

It actually has 8 SPEs in it. Because most people say 7 because that is what's used for games and you clearly know that one is dedicated towards the OS its understandable to think that it has 6 SPEs for gaming. It does however have 8 and one is for the OS and 7 is for gaming

I'm aware. 6 + 1 + 1 =8. 8 total SPEs. One locked to increase manufacturing yields, one dedicated to the OS and 6 for use.

#55 Posted by Valknut4 (392 posts) -

[QUOTE="Master_ShakeXXX"]

Next gen consoles will be on par with most gaming PCs. Don't assume that everybody owns a $1000 gaming rig.

ziggyww

I think this is the first time I agree with you

My 5 year old 700$ rig will still **** on the new consoles, don't worry. ITT people that don't understand spec, shouldnt talk about priceing out a rig : /

Not to mention 1000$ rig ? Really? What the newest Mac cost again!? Yeah an everybody an there dog seems to beable to afford it.

#56 Posted by PressXtoJump (1493 posts) -

[QUOTE="ziggyww"][QUOTE="lundy86_4"]

6 SPEs can be utilized for game development. One is for the OS and one is locked out to increase manufacturing yields.

lundy86_4

It actually has 8 SPEs in it. Because most people say 7 because that is what's used for games and you clearly know that one is dedicated towards the OS its understandable to think that it has 6 SPEs for gaming. It does however have 8 and one is for the OS and 7 is for gaming

I'm aware. 6 + 1 + 1 =8. 8 total SPEs. One locked to increase manufacturing yields, one dedicated to the OS and 6 for use.

proof they havent tapped the power of the last SPE?
#57 Posted by lundy86_4 (42687 posts) -

[QUOTE="lundy86_4"]

[QUOTE="ziggyww"] It actually has 8 SPEs in it. Because most people say 7 because that is what's used for games and you clearly know that one is dedicated towards the OS its understandable to think that it has 6 SPEs for gaming. It does however have 8 and one is for the OS and 7 is for gaming PressXtoJump

I'm aware. 6 + 1 + 1 =8. 8 total SPEs. One locked to increase manufacturing yields, one dedicated to the OS and 6 for use.

proof they havent tapped the power of the last SPE?

Link. It's factory disabled.

SPESynergistic processor element3.2GHz/1.6GHz8 present,1 disabled from factory

Wiki

#58 Posted by PressXtoJump (1493 posts) -

[QUOTE="PressXtoJump"][QUOTE="lundy86_4"]

I'm aware. 6 + 1 + 1 =8. 8 total SPEs. One locked to increase manufacturing yields, one dedicated to the OS and 6 for use.

lundy86_4

proof they havent tapped the power of the last SPE?

Link. It's factory disabled.

SPESynergistic processor element3.2GHz/1.6GHz8 present,1 disabled from factory

Wiki

:lol: wiki. try a real developers link.
#59 Posted by lundy86_4 (42687 posts) -

[QUOTE="lundy86_4"]

[QUOTE="PressXtoJump"] proof they havent tapped the power of the last SPE?PressXtoJump

Link. It's factory disabled.

SPESynergistic processor element3.2GHz/1.6GHz8 present,1 disabled from factory

Wiki

:lol: wiki. try a real developers link.

It's cited in a number of places.

Link 1.

Link 2.

The Cell BE processor is a chip consisting ofnine processing elements(note the PS3 has one of them disabled, and one of them reserved for system use,IBM

9 processing elements. 1 PPE, and 8 SPEs, one of which is utilized for the OS and one is disabled from factory.

So, that's a direct quote from IBM, stating it... We done?

#60 Posted by santoron (7467 posts) -
[QUOTE="lundy86_4"]

[QUOTE="PressXtoJump"] proof they havent tapped the power of the last SPE?PressXtoJump

Link. It's factory disabled.

SPESynergistic processor element3.2GHz/1.6GHz8 present,1 disabled from factory

Wiki

:lol: wiki. try a real developers link.

You're really arguing this, 6 years after the fact? Quit being so obstinate.
#61 Posted by PressXtoJump (1493 posts) -

[QUOTE="PressXtoJump"][QUOTE="lundy86_4"]

Link. It's factory disabled.

[quote="Wiki"]

SPESynergistic processor element3.2GHz/1.6GHz8 present,1 disabled from factory

lundy86_4

:lol: wiki. try a real developers link.

It's cited in a number of places.

Link 1.

Link 2.

The Cell BE processor is a chip consisting ofnine processing elements(note the PS3 has one of them disabled, and one of them reserved for system use,IBM

9 processing elements. 1 PPE, and 8 SPEs, one of which is utilized for the OS and one is disabled from factory.

So, that's a direct quote from IBM, stating it... We done?

:lol: 2007? were talking about todays technology, for tomorrows innovation.
#62 Posted by lundy86_4 (42687 posts) -

:lol: 2007? were talking about todays technology, for tomorrows innovation.PressXtoJump

The PS3 is using the hardware directly quoted in that article :lol: Way to laugh at your own system.

#63 Posted by Gue1 (9174 posts) -
#64 Posted by clyde46 (43685 posts) -
[QUOTE="lundy86_4"]

[QUOTE="PressXtoJump"] :lol: wiki. try a real developers link.PressXtoJump

It's cited in a number of places.

Link 1.

Link 2.

The Cell BE processor is a chip consisting ofnine processing elements(note the PS3 has one of them disabled, and one of them reserved for system use,IBM

9 processing elements. 1 PPE, and 8 SPEs, one of which is utilized for the OS and one is disabled from factory.

So, that's a direct quote from IBM, stating it... We done?

:lol: 2007? were talking about todays technology, for tomorrows innovation.

The PS3's tech hasnt changed since it was released dumb dumb, the articles are relevant.
#65 Posted by PressXtoJump (1493 posts) -

[QUOTE="PressXtoJump"]:lol: 2007? were talking about todays technology, for tomorrows innovation.lundy86_4

The PS3 is using the hardware directly quoted in that article :lol: Way to laugh at your own system.

the article is quoting untapped cell power, i agree. were arguing something else, read back.
#66 Posted by lundy86_4 (42687 posts) -

the article is quoting untapped cell power, i agree. were arguing something else, read back.PressXtoJump

You're arguing something else, sure. However, my link also proves you wrong. How do they tap the "power" of a disabled SPE? I'll wait :lol:

#67 Posted by PressXtoJump (1493 posts) -

[QUOTE="PressXtoJump"]the article is quoting untapped cell power, i agree. were arguing something else, read back.lundy86_4

You're arguing something else, sure. However, my link also proves you wrong. How do they tap the "power" of a disabled SPE? I'll wait :lol:

the cell, and any other hardware, is only as powerful as the software that utilizes it. the fusion reactor inside the core of the PS3, can be tweaked with a simple update.
#68 Posted by Gue1 (9174 posts) -

[QUOTE="Puckhog04"]

[QUOTE="silversix_"]they won't be weak. sony/ms aren't stupid, they see no1 buys the outdated wiiu so better invest more money on next gen specs than build a cheap system no one cares about.whiskeystrike

The Wii U is sold out everywhere and is backordered for months. Maybe you should check your sources there, slick. The only thing you got right is that the PS4/next xbox won't be weak, they'll be stronger than the Wii U...though by how much is yet to be seen. Some things already hint that it won't be by much. With the Wii U already being more powerful than the PS3/360, the only place to go is up.

Uh just last week I could get a Wii U in almost every GameStop I walked into. Don't know why people keep saying this

same here. Wii U's everywhere... And not to mention that they are supposedly "sold out" and still sold less than the PS3 and Xbox in America... It seems Nintendo is trying to do the same strategy they used with the Wii; keeping production low to generate some kind of hysteria that gets people even more interested in the system but it will not work.

People know PS3 will get a bunch of exclusive next year (and if they don't then they will know after the VGA's), the Xbox has a new GeoW and the multiplat beast GTAV. Nintendo launched their new console at a really bad time. After Christmas its sales will stall, specially if there's no Wii U version of GTAV.

#69 Posted by Malta_1980 (11126 posts) -

I dont think next consoles by Sony/MS will be weak, probably if we're lucky they'll be on par with current PC's...

#70 Posted by lundy86_4 (42687 posts) -

the cell, and any other hardware, is only as powerful as the software that utilizes it. the fusion reactor inside the core of the PS3, can be tweaked with a simple update.PressXtoJump

Your trolling is so horrendously bad :lol:

It lacks any sort of finesse or intelligence.

#71 Posted by clyde46 (43685 posts) -

[QUOTE="PressXtoJump"]the cell, and any other hardware, is only as powerful as the software that utilizes it. the fusion reactor inside the core of the PS3, can be tweaked with a simple update.lundy86_4

Your trolling is so horrendously bad :lol:

It lacks any sort of finesse or intelligence.

I miss the days when trolling meant something.
#72 Posted by lundy86_4 (42687 posts) -

[QUOTE="lundy86_4"]

[QUOTE="PressXtoJump"]the cell, and any other hardware, is only as powerful as the software that utilizes it. the fusion reactor inside the core of the PS3, can be tweaked with a simple update.clyde46

Your trolling is so horrendously bad :lol:

It lacks any sort of finesse or intelligence.

I miss the days when trolling meant something.

Same. I even miss Loosey... As annoying as he was :P

#74 Posted by PressXtoJump (1493 posts) -

[QUOTE="PressXtoJump"]the cell, and any other hardware, is only as powerful as the software that utilizes it. the fusion reactor inside the core of the PS3, can be tweaked with a simple update.lundy86_4

Your trolling is so horrendously bad :lol:

It lacks any sort of finesse or intelligence.

didnt you get the memo? http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/power/library/pa-linuxps3-1/
#75 Posted by clyde46 (43685 posts) -
[QUOTE="lundy86_4"]

[QUOTE="PressXtoJump"]the cell, and any other hardware, is only as powerful as the software that utilizes it. the fusion reactor inside the core of the PS3, can be tweaked with a simple update.PressXtoJump

Your trolling is so horrendously bad :lol:

It lacks any sort of finesse or intelligence.

didnt you get the memo? http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/power/library/pa-linuxps3-1/

Sony canned the second OS.
#76 Posted by lundy86_4 (42687 posts) -

didnt you get the memo? http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/power/library/pa-linuxps3-1/PressXtoJump

Are you referring to the use of Linux? Where the second OS option was removed?

#77 Posted by PressXtoJump (1493 posts) -

[QUOTE="PressXtoJump"]didnt you get the memo? http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/power/library/pa-linuxps3-1/lundy86_4

Are you referring to the use of Linux? Where the second OS option was removed?

its a bit technical, The key thing is... ...our company's future is secure.
#78 Posted by clyde46 (43685 posts) -
[QUOTE="lundy86_4"]

[QUOTE="PressXtoJump"]didnt you get the memo? http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/power/library/pa-linuxps3-1/PressXtoJump

Are you referring to the use of Linux? Where the second OS option was removed?

its a bit technical, The key thing is... ...our company's future is secure.

Even ShadowMoses was better at trolling than you.
#79 Posted by lundy86_4 (42687 posts) -

its a bit technical, The key thing is... ...our company's future is secure.PressXtoJump

:lol:

You're the worst troll there is.

#80 Posted by super600 (29985 posts) -

[QUOTE="super600"]

[QUOTE="MFDOOM1983"]We saw a huge graphical jump from the original xbox($300) to 360($300-$400) and that was only 4 years. A $300-$400 console 8 years later will be a even bigger jump in functionality and in graphical capability. The only people who say otherwise are sheep hoping they aren't left behind again. 04dcarraher

The 720 may be using a slow cpu like the WiiU to save power and most tech discussions point at the 720 being anywere from 6X-8X more powerful then the 360.

Which means a cpu and gpu between 3-4x stronger then current however you cant just look at brute processing and say its weak, when we will see native direct x 11 and shader model 5 based games over current direct x 9 shader model 3 games and major increase in memory usage in games instead of only 512mb of memory for system and video usage we will see 4-8x times the amount used. That alone will allow make a giant leap in gaming options in general from graphics to level sizes,MP player counts to interactivity of the games. Also need to point out also the PS4 AMD APU design base that was reported also pointing toward a low cost high efficiency, designs from both companies.

I know the cpu will be slow compared to the 360's cpu but it will obviously be stronger then the 360's CPU.I except a decent leap over this gen, but not an oh my god leap like this gen.

#81 Posted by 04dcarraher (19011 posts) -

[QUOTE="04dcarraher"][QUOTE="super600"]

The 720 may be using a slow cpu like the WiiU to save power and most tech discussions point at the 720 being anywere from 6X-8X more powerful then the 360.

super600

Which means a cpu and gpu between 3-4x stronger then current however you cant just look at brute processing and say its weak, when we will see native direct x 11 and shader model 5 based games over current direct x 9 shader model 3 games and major increase in memory usage in games instead of only 512mb of memory for system and video usage we will see 4-8x times the amount used. That alone will allow make a giant leap in gaming options in general from graphics to level sizes,MP player counts to interactivity of the games. Also need to point out also the PS4 AMD APU design base that was reported also pointing toward a low cost high efficiency, designs from both companies.

I know the cpu will be slow compared to the 360's cpu but it will obviously be stronger then the 360's CPU.I except a decent leap over this gen, but not an oh my god leap like this gen.

I doubt they will go below 3ghz, AMD APU's ie A10 5800k only has a TDP of 100w, and that's including a 3.8 ghz cpu with a IGP. 7660. So a plain CPU would be like 50w TDP.. Also a quad core bulldozer at 3.8 ghz would be well over 3x the processing power.
#82 Posted by Zophar87 (4337 posts) -

[QUOTE="Puckhog04"]

[QUOTE="silversix_"]they won't be weak. sony/ms aren't stupid, they see no1 buys the outdated wiiu so better invest more money on next gen specs than build a cheap system no one cares about.ziggyww

The Wii U is sold out everywhere and is backordered for months. Maybe you should check your sources there, slick. The only thing you got right is that the PS4/next xbox won't be weak, they'll be stronger than the Wii U...though by how much is yet to be seen. Some things already hint that it won't be by much. With the Wii U already being more powerful than the PS3/360, the only place to go is up.

Yeah but being sold out isn't that impressive when there wasn't much to begin with to sell. It was a marketing strategy to make their consoles seem more desirable by making it limited by the amount you can get at lunch. The Wii did this the first time around. I could make 2 consoles sell them both and say I'm sold out...So, it doesn't mean anything check you facts...SLICK!!! Both the PS3 and 360 sold more on black friday then what the Wii U sold at launch. And no the Wii U is more powerful but not by much it has only really caught up and passed by a fraction, big deal instead of playing black ops at 720 I can play it at 1080 but even the tech demos arn't that great compared to current gen. New consoles will see a bigger difference and if so its going to be a big diffrence to the Wii U aswell.

Uh, what marketing strategy are you referring to?

I'd like some lunch...

No, you couldn't. Shut up.

Yeah, let's compare sales of two consoles that all retailers across the world have an over abundance over to a console you can't even find.

We don't know this yet. Look at the XB360 launch titles compared to Halo 4.

This is actually pretty hard to do on a console. You missed that games like Assassin's Creed III are 1080p/60fps.

They never are.

#83 Posted by clyde46 (43685 posts) -

[QUOTE="ziggyww"][QUOTE="Puckhog04"]

The Wii U is sold out everywhere and is backordered for months. Maybe you should check your sources there, slick. The only thing you got right is that the PS4/next xbox won't be weak, they'll be stronger than the Wii U...though by how much is yet to be seen. Some things already hint that it won't be by much. With the Wii U already being more powerful than the PS3/360, the only place to go is up.

Zophar87

Yeah but being sold out isn't that impressive when there wasn't much to begin with to sell. It was a marketing strategy to make their consoles seem more desirable by making it limited by the amount you can get at lunch. The Wii did this the first time around. I could make 2 consoles sell them both and say I'm sold out...So, it doesn't mean anything check you facts...SLICK!!! Both the PS3 and 360 sold more on black friday then what the Wii U sold at launch. And no the Wii U is more powerful but not by much it has only really caught up and passed by a fraction, big deal instead of playing black ops at 720 I can play it at 1080 but even the tech demos arn't that great compared to current gen. New consoles will see a bigger difference and if so its going to be a big diffrence to the Wii U aswell.

Uh, what marketing strategy are you referring to?

I'd like some lunch...

No, you couldn't. Shut up.

Yeah, let's compare sales of two consoles that all retailers across the world have an over abundance over to a console you can't even find.

We don't know this yet. Look at the XB360 launch titles compared to Halo 4.

This is actually pretty hard to do on a console. You missed that games like Assassin's Creed III are 1080p/60fps.

They never are.

Pretty colours.
#84 Posted by Zophar87 (4337 posts) -

[QUOTE="Zophar87"]

[QUOTE="ziggyww"] Yeah but being sold out isn't that impressive when there wasn't much to begin with to sell. It was a marketing strategy to make their consoles seem more desirable by making it limited by the amount you can get at lunch. The Wii did this the first time around. I could make 2 consoles sell them both and say I'm sold out...So, it doesn't mean anything check you facts...SLICK!!! Both the PS3 and 360 sold more on black friday then what the Wii U sold at launch. And no the Wii U is more powerful but not by much it has only really caught up and passed by a fraction, big deal instead of playing black ops at 720 I can play it at 1080 but even the tech demos arn't that great compared to current gen. New consoles will see a bigger difference and if so its going to be a big diffrence to the Wii U aswell. clyde46

Uh, what marketing strategy are you referring to?

I'd like some lunch...

No, you couldn't. Shut up.

Yeah, let's compare sales of two consoles that all retailers across the world have an over abundance over to a console you can't even find.

We don't know this yet. Look at the XB360 launch titles compared to Halo 4.

This is actually pretty hard to do on a console. You missed that games like Assassin's Creed III are 1080p/60fps.

They never are.

Pretty colours.

UR PRETTY

#85 Posted by ziggyww (835 posts) -

[QUOTE="whiskeystrike"]

[QUOTE="Puckhog04"]

The Wii U is sold out everywhere and is backordered for months. Maybe you should check your sources there, slick. The only thing you got right is that the PS4/next xbox won't be weak, they'll be stronger than the Wii U...though by how much is yet to be seen. Some things already hint that it won't be by much. With the Wii U already being more powerful than the PS3/360, the only place to go is up.

Gue1

Uh just last week I could get a Wii U in almost every GameStop I walked into. Don't know why people keep saying this

same here. Wii U's everywhere... And not to mention that they are supposedly "sold out" and still sold less than the PS3 and Xbox in America... It seems Nintendo is trying to do the same strategy they used with the Wii; keeping production low to generate some kind of hysteria that gets people even more interested in the system but it will not work.

People know PS3 will get a bunch of exclusive next year (and if they don't then they will know after the VGA's), the Xbox has a new GeoW and the multiplat beast GTAV. Nintendo launched their new console at a really bad time. After Christmas its sales will stall, specially if there's no Wii U version of GTAV.

Agree was chatting to friends earlier in the day and said the Wii U doesn't have that much hype and if it is more powerful then the others if needs to start proving it and we came to the conclusion it needs a game like GTAV and for it to be the best version to show its appeal
#86 Posted by gamecubepad (6071 posts) -

And no the Wii U is more powerful but not by much it has only really caught up and passed by a fraction, big deal instead of playing black ops at 720 I can play it at 1080 but even the tech demos arn't that great compared to current gen. New consoles will see a bigger difference and if so its going to be a big diffrence to the Wii U aswell. ziggyww

WiiU doesn't even play Blops2 at 720p. It's pretty much identical to the 360 version, but worse framerate.

#87 Posted by GioVela2010 (4017 posts) -
If they are less powerful than a HD 7870 or GTX 670 I may build myself a HTPC if it can fit in my AV Cabinet.
#88 Posted by gamecubepad (6071 posts) -

[QUOTE="super600"]

I know the cpu will be slow compared to the 360's cpu but it will obviously be stronger then the 360's CPU.I except a decent leap over this gen, but not an oh my god leap like this gen.

04dcarraher

I doubt they will go below 3ghz, AMD APU's ie A10 5800k only has a TDP of 100w, and that's including a 3.8 ghz cpu with a IGP. 7660. So a plain CPU would be like 50w TDP.. Also a quad core bulldozer at 3.8 ghz would be well over 3x the processing power.

Interesting excerpt from a DF interview with 4A'sOles Shishkovstov:

Digital Foundry: How would you characterise the combination of Xenos and Xenon compared to the traditional x86/GPU combo on PC? Surely on the face of it, Xbox 360 is lacking a lot of power compared to today's entry-level "enthusiast" PC hardware?

Oles Shishkovstov: You can calculate it like this: each 360 CPU core is approximately a quarter of the same-frequency Nehalem (i7) core. Add in approximately 1.5 times better performance because of the second, shared thread for 360 and around 1.3 times for Nehalem, multiply by three cores and you get around 70 to 85 per cent of a single modern CPU core on generic (but multi-threaded) code.

Bear in mind though that the above calculation will not work in the case where the code is properly vectorised. In that case 360 can actually exceed PC on a per-thread per-clock basis. So, is it enough? Nope, there is no CPU in the world that is enough for games!

The 360 GPU is a different beast. Compared to today's high-end hardware it is 5-10 times slower depending on what you do. But performance of hardware is only one side of equation. Because we as programmers can optimise for the specific GPU we can reach nearly 100 per cent utilisation of all the sub-units. That's just not possible on a PC.

In addition to this we can do dirty MSAA tricks, like treating some surfaces as multi-sampled (for example hi-stencil masking the light-influence does that), or rendering multi-sampled shadow maps, and then sampling correct sub-pixel values because we know exactly what pattern and what positions sub-samples have, etc. So, it's not directly comparable.

---

This, along with geometry and texture LOD is the essence of console optimization.



#89 Posted by 04dcarraher (19011 posts) -

[QUOTE="04dcarraher"][QUOTE="super600"]

I know the cpu will be slow compared to the 360's cpu but it will obviously be stronger then the 360's CPU.I except a decent leap over this gen, but not an oh my god leap like this gen.

gamecubepad

I doubt they will go below 3ghz, AMD APU's ie A10 5800k only has a TDP of 100w, and that's including a 3.8 ghz cpu with a IGP. 7660. So a plain CPU would be like 50w TDP.. Also a quad core bulldozer at 3.8 ghz would be well over 3x the processing power.

Interesting excerpt from a DF interview with 4A'sOles Shishkovstov:

Digital Foundry: How would you characterise the combination of Xenos and Xenon compared to the traditional x86/GPU combo on PC? Surely on the face of it, Xbox 360 is lacking a lot of power compared to today's entry-level "enthusiast" PC hardware?

Oles Shishkovstov: You can calculate it like this: each 360 CPU core is approximately a quarter of the same-frequency Nehalem (i7) core. Add in approximately 1.5 times better performance because of the second, shared thread for 360 and around 1.3 times for Nehalem, multiply by three cores and you get around 70 to 85 per cent of a single modern CPU core on generic (but multi-threaded) code.

---

This, along with geometry and texture LOD is the essence of console optimization.



Their so full of crap :lol:

PCvsconsole.jpg

#90 Posted by gamecubepad (6071 posts) -

[QUOTE="gamecubepad"]

Interesting excerpt from a DF interview with 4A'sOles Shishkovstov:

Digital Foundry: How would you characterise the combination of Xenos and Xenon compared to the traditional x86/GPU combo on PC? Surely on the face of it, Xbox 360 is lacking a lot of power compared to today's entry-level "enthusiast" PC hardware?

Oles Shishkovstov: You can calculate it like this: each 360 CPU core is approximately a quarter of the same-frequency Nehalem (i7) core. Add in approximately 1.5 times better performance because of the second, shared thread for 360 and around 1.3 times for Nehalem, multiply by three cores and you get around 70 to 85 per cent of a single modern CPU core on generic (but multi-threaded) code.

---

This, along with geometry and texture LOD is the essence of console optimization.



04dcarraher

Their so full of crap :lol:

PCvsconsole.jpg

We're cool, so I'll just politely tell you his calculations are perfect based on your own data.

#91 Posted by Kinthalis (5251 posts) -

[QUOTE="04dcarraher"][QUOTE="super600"]

I know the cpu will be slow compared to the 360's cpu but it will obviously be stronger then the 360's CPU.I except a decent leap over this gen, but not an oh my god leap like this gen.

gamecubepad

I doubt they will go below 3ghz, AMD APU's ie A10 5800k only has a TDP of 100w, and that's including a 3.8 ghz cpu with a IGP. 7660. So a plain CPU would be like 50w TDP.. Also a quad core bulldozer at 3.8 ghz would be well over 3x the processing power.

Interesting excerpt from a DF interview with 4A'sOles Shishkovstov:

Digital Foundry: How would you characterise the combination of Xenos and Xenon compared to the traditional x86/GPU combo on PC? Surely on the face of it, Xbox 360 is lacking a lot of power compared to today's entry-level "enthusiast" PC hardware?

Oles Shishkovstov: You can calculate it like this: each 360 CPU core is approximately a quarter of the same-frequency Nehalem (i7) core. Add in approximately 1.5 times better performance because of the second, shared thread for 360 and around 1.3 times for Nehalem, multiply by three cores and you get around 70 to 85 per cent of a single modern CPU core on generic (but multi-threaded) code.

Bear in mind though that the above calculation will not work in the case where the code is properly vectorised. In that case 360 can actually exceed PC on a per-thread per-clock basis. So, is it enough? Nope, there is no CPU in the world that is enough for games!

The 360 GPU is a different beast. Compared to today's high-end hardware it is 5-10 times slower depending on what you do. But performance of hardware is only one side of equation. Because we as programmers can optimise for the specific GPU we can reach nearly 100 per cent utilisation of all the sub-units. That's just not possible on a PC.

In addition to this we can do dirty MSAA tricks, like treating some surfaces as multi-sampled (for example hi-stencil masking the light-influence does that), or rendering multi-sampled shadow maps, and then sampling correct sub-pixel values because we know exactly what pattern and what positions sub-samples have, etc. So, it's not directly comparable.

---

This, along with geometry and texture LOD is the essence of console optimization.



Yeah, this is outdated BS Maybe true for DX9, unoptomized renderer, but DX11 is a huge upgrade in terms of efficiency in utilizing modern GPU's. The difference between a properly optimized console game running on similar hardware and PC using DX 9 is anywhere from 20-40%. But with a modern API, that gets cut down by about half.

So, yeah, outdated, not only that but he's painting an unrealisticly optimal scenerio. He's saying: If we have a game with all in-order instructions and code perfeclty suited to the dumbed down CPU + GPU of consoles we can achieve utilization that the PC can't do (again, back with DX9).

BUT NO GAME DOES THIS. There ar elimits as to what types of calculaitons will run well on console hardware and what won't. And what won't ends up being the bottle neck.

#92 Posted by gamecubepad (6071 posts) -

Yeah, this is outdated BS

Kinthalis

Heh. Metro 2033 is still more advanced and demanding than 99% of games and designed with DX11 in mind. 4A was way ahead of the curve and what he said would take modern architecture into consideration, even in 2010.

---

Excerpt:

Digital Foundry: Does all the hard work you've done in getting 4A to run on console translate back into more efficient processing on the PC? What sort of PC hardware would be required to match Xbox 360 performance?

Oles Shishkovstov: The PC side definitely became more and more optimised as a side effect. For example we don't need as much system memory as other PC-only games. Anything above 512MB RAM with DX10/DX11 code-path on Windows 7 would be enough. DirectX9 uses system memory backing store for almost all GPU resources, so you should add around 256MB to avoid page-file swapping.

The CPU side is slightly more problematic. Because the system is heavily multi-threaded, we need at least two hardware threads for "smooth" gameplay. The CPU performance doesn't matter that much, except on a few selected scenes during the whole game as long as it is relatively modern architecture (not Intel Atom!) and has more than one core.

As for the GPU, the console brothers have very little influence on the PC version, if any. The shaders are very different. The pipeline is very different as well. I mean they areverydifferent - they just look similar and utilise the same art content.

#93 Posted by Kinthalis (5251 posts) -

[QUOTE="Kinthalis"]

Yeah, this is outdated BS

gamecubepad

Heh. Metro 2033 is still more advanced and demanding than 99% of games and designed with DX11 in mind. 4A was way ahead of the curve and what he said would take modern architecture into consideration, even in 2010.

---

Excerpt:

Digital Foundry: Does all the hard work you've done in getting 4A to run on console translate back into more efficient processing on the PC? What sort of PC hardware would be required to match Xbox 360 performance?

Oles Shishkovstov: The PC side definitely became more and more optimised as a side effect. For example we don't need as much system memory as other PC-only games. Anything above 512MB RAM with DX10/DX11 code-path on Windows 7 would be enough. DirectX9 uses system memory backing store for almost all GPU resources, so you should add around 256MB to avoid page-file swapping.

The CPU side is slightly more problematic. Because the system is heavily multi-threaded, we need at least two hardware threads for "smooth" gameplay. The CPU performance doesn't matter that much, except on a few selected scenes during the whole game as long as it is relatively modern architecture (not Intel Atom!) and has more than one core.

As for the GPU, the console brothers have very little influence on the PC version, if any. The shaders are very different. The pipeline is very different as well. I mean they areverydifferent - they just look similar and utilise the same art content.

Uhm, no.

First, please define designed with DX 11 "in mind". It's nonsensical.

If you mean created with DX11 renderer from the ground up, nope, that's not the case. IT's very much a DX9 game, or DX9 calls through the DX 11 renderer, with a few DX11 specific API calls for some tessellation and direct compute features. None fo which are particularly wlel optimized, since Bokeh depth of dield has been done better on other DX11 games, and doesn't bring the GPU to halt, like it does in Metro.

Anyway, what exactly is the point you are trying to make? That teh optimizations are going to automagiclaly make crappy hardware perform like high end hardware? Cause that's just BS.

#94 Posted by 04dcarraher (19011 posts) -
Xbox 360 Xenon cpu has 165 million transistors while a i5 760 has 774 million transistors, while an i7 980 has 1.1 billion transistors. transistors = general processing power/speed, there is no way with modern OS's and API's that a Xenon could even get close to modern cpus.... The Xenon is only able to 2 IPS(clock cycles) per core equaling 6 IPS total while an Athlon X2 3800 at 2 ghz is able to do 7.2 IPS 3.6 per core. While a i7 920 (2.6 ghz) is able to do 30 IPS or 7.7 per core. While a i7 2600k is able to do nearly 40 IPS.
#95 Posted by gamecubepad (6071 posts) -

Uhm, no.

Anyway, what exactly is the point you are trying to make? That teh optimizations are going to automagiclaly make crappy hardware perform like high end hardware? Cause that's just BS.

Kinthalis

Some observations:

-You jump to conclusions

-You are a "know-it-all" type

-You come off like a raging nerd boy

:lol:

I was sharing some cool information from an established developer. That article reads like dream compared to the sour attitude and crap posting you've shown so far.

#96 Posted by ronvalencia (15109 posts) -

I doubt Ps4 and Xbox 720 will be weak. Mainly because pc gaming would be so far ahead of the consoles like never before. Be the first time its been like that for me.

If the consoles are as weak as people on system wars say they will be then this will be a much different gen than before. Its always been that the consoles at launch are on par with the latest pc hardware or close. How different of a gen do you think it will be if Ps4 and Xbox 720 are weak compared to the pc?

I think that due to this the pc gaming market for dedicated gpu's will die out and become redudant. They will no longer make games that can make use of the hardware so everybody can play at high settings with integrated graphics.

There will be less and less exclusives because pc gaming has become cheaper to get into and has become a bigger player, thus it will take a bigger share from the pie. The main difference from the consoles in terms of games will be what gimmicks they can do.

Ps4 and Xbox 720 are most likely gonna be on par with current pc hardware like gtx 680 in power. Its like those end of the world predictions, when people say the consoles are gonna be weak.

slipknot0129
AMD Radeon HD 7970 gets recycled for AMD FireStream server and FireGL workstation products. Server and workstation products gets enterprise certification and additional cost.
#97 Posted by ronvalencia (15109 posts) -

[QUOTE="04dcarraher"][QUOTE="super600"]

I know the cpu will be slow compared to the 360's cpu but it will obviously be stronger then the 360's CPU.I except a decent leap over this gen, but not an oh my god leap like this gen.

gamecubepad

I doubt they will go below 3ghz, AMD APU's ie A10 5800k only has a TDP of 100w, and that's including a 3.8 ghz cpu with a IGP. 7660. So a plain CPU would be like 50w TDP.. Also a quad core bulldozer at 3.8 ghz would be well over 3x the processing power.

Interesting excerpt from a DF interview with 4A'sOles Shishkovstov:

Digital Foundry: How would you characterise the combination of Xenos and Xenon compared to the traditional x86/GPU combo on PC? Surely on the face of it, Xbox 360 is lacking a lot of power compared to today's entry-level "enthusiast" PC hardware?

Oles Shishkovstov: You can calculate it like this: each 360 CPU core is approximately a quarter of the same-frequency Nehalem (i7) core. Add in approximately 1.5 times better performance because of the second, shared thread for 360 and around 1.3 times for Nehalem, multiply by three cores and you get around 70 to 85 per cent of a single modern CPU core on generic (but multi-threaded) code.

Bear in mind though that the above calculation will not work in the case where the code is properly vectorised. In that case 360 can actually exceed PC on a per-thread per-clock basis. So, is it enough? Nope, there is no CPU in the world that is enough for games!

The 360 GPU is a different beast. Compared to today's high-end hardware it is 5-10 times slower depending on what you do. But performance of hardware is only one side of equation. Because we as programmers can optimise for the specific GPU we can reach nearly 100 per cent utilisation of all the sub-units. That's just not possible on a PC.

In addition to this we can do dirty MSAA tricks, like treating some surfaces as multi-sampled (for example hi-stencil masking the light-influence does that), or rendering multi-sampled shadow maps, and then sampling correct sub-pixel values because we know exactly what pattern and what positions sub-samples have, etc. So, it's not directly comparable.

---

This, along with geometry and texture LOD is the essence of console optimization.

Depends on vector instructions e.g. barrel shifter on Xbox 360's PPE is very slow. The above statement wouldn't be applicable for 256bit wide AVX SIMD era Intel Sandybridge.

http://forum.doom9.org/archive/index.php/t-157701.html

"The Cell is a pretty slow CPU. It takes roughly 2.5 cores (out of 8) to do realtime 1080p H.264 decoding with a highly optimized decoder. A fast i7 can do that with about ~0.4 cores (out of 4 or 6)."

PowerPC ISA doesn't have advantage of FMA/FMAC over AMD Bulldozer/Piledriver.

On HPC's CPU side, there's a reason why the world's fastest supercomputer is powered by AMD Bulldozer. AMD Bulldozer/Piledriver can handle 4 operands FMA/FMAC while PowerPC/SPU ISA only handles 3 operands FMA/FMAC.

AMD Bulldozer was designed to be heavy multi-threaded floating point monster for the CPU side i.e. it's 8 core has 8 128bit wide FMAC/FMA (with FMA3 and FMA4) i.e. it's AMD's own CELL like solution from AMD's CPU team. This is not factoring AMD's APU team.

Intel gets FMA3 support with Intel Haswell.

#98 Posted by GarGx1 (2382 posts) -

They'll either be this years mid-high tech in 2014 or last years in 2013. Either way, compared to the current consoles they will be power houses but will still be under powered when matched against a 2013 or 2014 PC (depending on when they come out)

If they go casual, then we'll be seeing laptop power in stead of desktop (still way more than current gen).

#99 Posted by Kinthalis (5251 posts) -

[QUOTE="Kinthalis"]

Uhm, no.

Anyway, what exactly is the point you are trying to make? That teh optimizations are going to automagiclaly make crappy hardware perform like high end hardware? Cause that's just BS.

gamecubepad

Some observations:

-You jump to conclusions

-You are a "know-it-all" type

-You come off like a raging nerd boy

:lol:

I was sharing some cool information from an established developer. That article reads like dream compared to the sour attitude and crap posting you've shown so far.

- You're an idiot.

- You're an idiot.

- Oh, look at that, you're an idiot.

When come back, bring an argument.

#100 Posted by clone01 (24183 posts) -
If they are less powerful than a HD 7870 or GTX 670 I may build myself a HTPC if it can fit in my AV Cabinet.GioVela2010
Why is the BMW logo in your avatar so ghetto?