How does M$ plan to bridge the "1080P" gap using the "cloud" when OnLive was a failure?

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Posted by Xtasy26 (4233 posts) 6 months, 2 days ago

Poll: How does M$ plan to bridge the "1080P" gap using the "cloud" when OnLive was a failure? (23 votes)

Agree! They can't. 70%
No, in 5-10 years they will. 35%

http://www.joystiq.com/2012/08/18/documenting-the-death-of-onlive-notes-from-the-companys-final/

Remember the darling of the new "gaming era" OnLive that launched in 2010 that met it's end in 2012 (although services are still provided) and how it's going to stream gaming and make current consoles and PC's redundant (or somewhat redundant).

While I admire start-ups but I just don't think the bandwidth is there to push 1080P and thus "somehow" enable 1080P rendering in real time and having that pushed through the Xbox One.

The whole idea of M$ using the "cloud" in the future to render real time game seems like an entire fraud.

You would have better chance of gaming at 1080P using AMD's new Kaveri Gaming APU and build your self a small HTPC to do gaming on. And you could do that less than the price of a Xbox One! And as newer and newer Gaming APU's come out the chances of you gaming at 1080P is going to get better and better on HTPCs.

Agree?

#1 Edited by clyde46 (43913 posts) -

The West's shitty internet infrastructure and the fractured nature of US ISP business is to blame.

#2 Posted by R3FURBISHED (10169 posts) -

@Xtasy26: Are Microsoft using the same infrastructure as the OnLive people? Is OnLive and Microsoft's Azure Cloud built to do the same thing?

#3 Posted by 2mrw (4957 posts) -

The same way Sony thinks Playstation Now will work.

#4 Edited by clr84651 (5338 posts) -

The Cloud is for online storage & not for improving game Resolutions & FPS. The console's hardware is responsible for those.

#5 Posted by GameMediator (69 posts) -

It won't. Developers just need more time to get used to Xbox one hardware. Games will hit 1080p 60fps once they understand how to manage the RAM, esram, and gpu better.

Once Direct X 11.2 gets released developers will be able to develop games with amazing textures without sacrificing alot of the RAM and stuff.

Xbox one hardware is alot more complicated than PS4 fanboys understand. Im not a Tech geek but im not ignorant to the "secret" power microsoft built for the X1. patience, the systems just launched.

#6 Posted by Xtasy26 (4233 posts) -

@Xtasy26: Are Microsoft using the same infrastructure as the OnLive people? Is OnLive and Microsoft's Azure Cloud built to do the same thing?

Not sure. I do know that OnLive was using servers powered by I believe 8800 GT's to push 720P games over people's broad band ISP. There was supposed to be working on pushing games at 1080P over broadband. So maybe M$ Xbox One cloud is something that M$ has in mind in the next couple of years.

#7 Posted by Kinthalis (5270 posts) -

@gamemediator: You don't have a clue what you are tlaking about, do you?

You don't need to answer, your post speaks volumes.

And yeah, the cloud won't help with real-time, latency crucial calculations. It's useless for those, so it won't affect direct performance.

#8 Posted by tyloss (829 posts) -

It won't.

#9 Posted by R3FURBISHED (10169 posts) -

@Xtasy26 said:

@R3FURBISHED said:

@Xtasy26: Are Microsoft using the same infrastructure as the OnLive people? Is OnLive and Microsoft's Azure Cloud built to do the same thing?

Not sure. I do know that OnLive was using servers powered by I believe 8800 GT's to push 720P games over people's broad band ISP. There was supposed to be working on pushing games at 1080P over broadband. So maybe M$ Xbox One cloud is something that M$ has in mind in the next couple of years.

The Xbox One still uses its onboard hardware to process everything though, its not streaming hardware power -- the cloud is just used to offload computations.

Forza used the cloud for the Drivatar AI, Titanfall uses the cloud for dedicated servers

#10 Posted by Kinthalis (5270 posts) -

@Xtasy26 said:

@R3FURBISHED said:

@Xtasy26: Are Microsoft using the same infrastructure as the OnLive people? Is OnLive and Microsoft's Azure Cloud built to do the same thing?

Not sure. I do know that OnLive was using servers powered by I believe 8800 GT's to push 720P games over people's broad band ISP. There was supposed to be working on pushing games at 1080P over broadband. So maybe M$ Xbox One cloud is something that M$ has in mind in the next couple of years.

The Xbox One still uses its onboard hardware to process everything though, its not streaming hardware power -- the cloud is just used to offload computations.

Forza used the cloud for the Drivatar AI, Titanfall uses the cloud for dedicated servers

???

The cloud IS dedicated servers.

The "cloud" is a amrketign term for servers. The same old servers that have existed sinse the dawn of the internet.

#11 Posted by The_Last_Ride (69529 posts) -

"The Power of the Cloud" was a lie. I don't see how they can make games immensely better

#12 Edited by me3x12 (1765 posts) -

Onlive that guy Steve Perlman or whatever has made bank and swindled himself millions on two of the biggest jokes he did Web TV and then Onlive and then walked away with a pocket of cash why they crashed and burned. LOL classic.

#13 Edited by Xtasy26 (4233 posts) -
@me3x12 said:

Onlive that guy Steve Perlman or whatever has made bank and swindled himself millions on two of the biggest jokes he did Web TV and then Onlive and then walked away with a pocket of cash why they crashed and burned. LOL classic.

True. It's unfortunate that the employees that worked for him in the end were ultimately screwed and lost their jobs. The OnLive employees didn't even get severance when they were let go. That's pretty low.

#14 Posted by hoyalawya (340 posts) -

Use of cloud computing has to be architected into the game. You can't just flip a switch to say we will do cloud from tomorrow. The netcode of Titanfall is already cloud-based - e.g., adding/removing servers on-the-fly based on demands. It will be up to the developers to figure out how to integrate cloud computing into other parts of the game. Microsoft already said that cloud-computing could help in processing the non-lag sensitive parts of games. E.g., loading of maps, calculating of lighting effects, etc.

#15 Edited by hoyalawya (340 posts) -

@2mrw said:

The same way Sony thinks Playstation Now will work.

Actually, they are different. PlayStation Now will stream the entire game and the entire game play happens on the cloud. Xbox One cloud computing will be used only for the non-lag sensitive parts of a game. E.g., preloading of maps and lighting effects. The interactive and, thus, lag sensitive parts of a game will still be executed directly on the console. The idea to offload background processing to cloud computers and freeing up resources locally on the console. In theory, it should work. However, I simply do not know how much resources can be saved because I am not a game developer.

#16 Posted by treedoor (7478 posts) -

"The Cloud" wouldn't render game assets.

It might be possible to offload certain computations, such as the AI in Forza, which may then leave the Xbox One's hardware free to perform other tasks, but I reckon it'd be minuscule improvement at best to how the overall game looks. It may be able to provide some nifty features outside of graphics though.

But yah. No rendering will be done in the cloud, and I don't think anyone ever expected it to (unless they are stupid).

#17 Edited by jhcho2 (4372 posts) -

So many things wrong with this thread.

1. OnLive couldn't even run at 1080p due to bandwidth problems (get it?). It ran at 720p for a good reason

2. Cloud servers cannot be used in tandem with local hardware for rendering assets

3. You either render everything on the servers. in which case, you'll need a 200Mbps internet connection for 1080p, or everything locally, which is what the X1 is doing now. There's no half here, half there.

#18 Edited by TwistedShade (3137 posts) -

Onlive was a mess of a company, and they had some screwy executives only in the company for a quick buck, the service was bound to never take off.

Microsoft on the other hand has literally spent billions on their cloud technology and are in a better position to utilize it.

#19 Posted by Xtasy26 (4233 posts) -

@jhcho2 said:

So many things wrong with this thread.

1. OnLive couldn't even run at 1080p due to bandwidth problems (get it?). It ran at 720p for a good reason

2. Cloud servers cannot be used in tandem with local hardware for rendering assets

3. You either render everything on the servers. in which case, you'll need a 200Mbps internet connection for 1080p, or everything locally, which is what the X1 is doing now. There's no half here, half there.

Where did I say that they were streaming games at 1080P for OnLive. I stated that they were working on it (or at least working on it at some point) based on what I read.

#20 Posted by WilliamRLBaker (28329 posts) -

lol using M$ completely invalidates any argument you just made.

P.S: it will never happen because the internet doesn't work that way you cannot fight the nature of electricity, and information exchange over distance, but that doesn't matter because you used M$ it invalidates anything you said its pretty much equivalent to being Micheal Pachter.

#21 Edited by Gaming-Planet (13861 posts) -

Cloud can render thing like physics and dynamic shadows with a bit of latency, although MS has yet to proven this. I think Nvidia did something similar.

Ah yes, here.

#22 Edited by o0squishy0o (2754 posts) -

There seem to be a lot of people righting off the use of a "cloud" based solution to help with rendering. Perhaps it is near impossible to basically have the game being rendered many many miles away and streamed instantly (what it feels like) to your system. However to say you need an insane internet connection to get 1080p is total BS. An average UK fibre optic connection will stream you 1080p just fine.

I am sure there are ways in which things can be used together. If there wasn't then you would not have the huge investment into the service being made by all companies. Onlive proved that in a very rough way, its possible to do. It was just too early and not supported enough.

#23 Edited by Scipio8 (612 posts) -

MS cloud is not for graphics, for that the next SDK will give Xbox 1080p easily. The cloud means devs can use MS cloud for bigger worlds, AI etc. While Sony Now is just a sh** version of Onlive.

#24 Posted by shellcase86 (1934 posts) -

I'd say Sony made better on their bet with Gaikai and spinning that into PS Now than MSFT has with their cloud.

#25 Edited by Chutebox (36392 posts) -

It wont

#26 Edited by santoron (7620 posts) -

That's not the point of MS's cloud servers, though I'll admit MS has done nothing to educate their fans about such ludicrous misconceptions. It will almost exclusively be used in online games to relieve a gamer's console from being responsible for enemy AI and world dynamics, essentially leveling the playing field while allowing those factors to improve over what was available on last gen machines. It's not a revolutionary concept: MMOs have been doing this for 20 years now on PC.

MS has also proposed that it could be used to offload some physics calculations (grass/tree movement ect) but I highly doubt you'll see much of this in action, and the benefit would be small. Internet bandwidth and latency make the processing benefit of such an approach negligible, and it would add needless complexity to multiplatform design.

#27 Posted by shawn30 (4361 posts) -

They don't need too. They have yet to prove what the Cloud can do, but we know from a recent dev interview that the new SDK is making the One hit 1080p far easier now, so to a degree as games will grow bigger as well, the dev kits and tools will continue to mature. There will always be a gap between the PS4 and the One, but the One will start hitting 1080p far more often, espcally going into next year.

#28 Posted by RimacBugatti (1189 posts) -

The download speeds have to increase. I think 500 mbps is possible but not affordable. But when we get to around say 1 GB per second and being affordable than Xbone will take off. but until then Xbone will struggle.

#29 Posted by lundy86_4 (42798 posts) -

@clyde46 said:

The West's shitty internet infrastructure and the fractured nature of US ISP business is to blame.

So, so much of this. Even Canadian ISP's are terribad. It takes forever to upgrade any kind of hardware... Hell, fiber optics are taking forever, due to the cost.

#30 Edited by GrenadeLauncher (3585 posts) -

They can't. "Cloud power computation" was just going to be the practical excuse for always-online DRM. "It can't be 40 times more powerful than the 360 if it's not connected to the Internet!" Unfortunately for MS, everyone saw through that shit on day one.

#31 Edited by Xtasy26 (4233 posts) -

lol using M$ completely invalidates any argument you just made.

P.S: it will never happen because the internet doesn't work that way you cannot fight the nature of electricity, and information exchange over distance, but that doesn't matter because you used M$ it invalidates anything you said its pretty much equivalent to being Micheal Pachter.

I don't even know what in the world are you talking about. I just used M$ as sort of an abbreviation.

Cloud can render thing like physics and dynamic shadows with a bit of latency, although MS has yet to proven this. I think Nvidia did something similar.

Ah yes, here.

Well, this is very interesting.