DX 12 Coming to XBOX One

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#51 Edited by kbanna (665 posts) -

@PinkieWinkie said:

@kbanna: dude, what are you smoking. Ryse looks good, but its still being compared to launch games and its sub-hd and sub 30fps. Look at how almost every multiplatform games looks better on PS4.

What are you smoking? Because that sub hd (its not sub hd btw, hd is 720p and up) game you mentioned looks better then every multiplatform ps4 game. This is not a multiplatform war, its a graphical output war. More specifically, what each machine is capable of out-putting. And from that standpoint Ryse looks phenomenal, and a new SDK will only make X1 games look better going forward. Talk to me when one of those multiplatform games looks better then Ryse.

The system is capable, give the developers time to exploit the hardware. Some Dev are further along then others, such as Turn 10 and Crytec. Give it some time. Its been 3 months and conclusions are being drawn about an entire generation.

#52 Posted by MdBrOtha04 (1820 posts) -

@ronvalencia: the last four version s of dx required new gpus. Even nvidia gpus has do 11.1 features But wasn't fully compliant with the whole api

#53 Posted by LanceX2 (305 posts) -

@blackace: Yeah, those new SDKs are really helping. Just look at MGS, Watch Dogs and The Witcher.

Oh wait...

All 3 games in development before SDK was released. your dumb to think this is the BEst X1 will do

#54 Edited by FoxbatAlpha (5913 posts) -

This means good news for THE ONE

Bad news for the quad.

Simple logic.

#55 Edited by ronvalencia (15109 posts) -
@MdBrOtha04 said:

@ronvalencia: the last four version s of dx required new gpus. Even nvidia gpus has do 11.1 features But wasn't fully compliant with the whole api

Last two PC's DX release doesn't require new GPUs i.e. AMD GCN fully supports DX11.1 and DX11.2.

AMD GCN fully supports DirectX 11.X superset in both API and hardware.

#56 Posted by SEANMCAD (5464 posts) -

From what I have read thus far on DirectX 12 there is plenty of reason to assume its only a software update.

'Closer to the metal'. My hunch is that this isnt a feature/hardware upgrade to directx 11.x but I could be wrong.

#57 Edited by lostrib (31888 posts) -

@lancex2 said:

@PinkieWinkie said:

@blackace: Yeah, those new SDKs are really helping. Just look at MGS, Watch Dogs and The Witcher.

Oh wait...

All 3 games in development before SDK was released. your dumb to think this is the BEst X1 will do

*facepalm*

#58 Posted by PinkieWinkie (1364 posts) -

@kbanna: lol don't get ahead of yourself, Ryse looks good. That's about it. The XOne will never match up to the ps4 visually. Once you get that through your head the better.

#59 Posted by Desmonic (12809 posts) -

Expected. Any info on what DX12 will actually allow to do though? New features and all that jazz?

#60 Posted by kbanna (665 posts) -

@ronvalencia:

@ronvalencia said:

@MdBrOtha04:

@MdBrOtha04 said:

@ronvalencia said:

@MdBrOtha04 said:

Xbox One can not emulate any Hardware features DX 12 may require. Nor can even the most expensive DX 11 GPU's on the PC side.

DirectX 12 is a low level API, hence it's a lightweight API layer...

That will have features that are not available to current GPU's

From http://www.tomshardware.com/news/amd-mantle-opengl-directx-gdc-2014,26188.html

"AMD Supports Possible Lower Level DirectX" - tomshardware

From http://www.anandtech.com/show/7818/low-level-graphics-api-developments-gdc-2014

Microsoft: “You asked us to do more,” the DirectX session reads. “You asked us to bring you even closer to the metal and to do so on an unparalleled assortment of hardware. You also asked us for better tools so that you can squeeze every last drop of performance out of your PC, tablet, phone and console.”

AMD: “AMD would like you to know that it supports and celebrates a direction for game development that is aligned with AMD’s vision of lower-level, ‘closer to the metal’ graphics APIs for PC gaming,” reports an AMD rep. “While industry experts expect this to take some time, developers can immediately leverage efficient API design using Mantle, and AMD is very excited to share the future of our own API with developers at this year’s Game Developers Conference.”

Notice the word console with DirectX 12 i.e. MS's current game console is Xbox One which runs on AMD GCN.

DirectX 12 is aligned with AMD's vision on "lower-level, ‘closer to the metal’ graphics APIs for PC gaming". Xbox One constant would be the clue if the current PC GPU hardware can run DirectX 12.

Kind of like installing an updated dx11.2 on a computer with a gpu that only have dx11. Features get wasted. Your GPU will not be DX 12 compliant. Nor was the xbox 360 that had GPU features required by DX 10 ie unified shader architecture.

I think it would of been completely silly and short cited on MS's part not to build the X1's GPU to be DX12 capable. I think the hardware launched ahead of the software and MS is now playing catch up. No one has done a deep-dive into the X1's gpu yet, and even though its AMD equivalent has been identified , MS made several internal modifications to the GPU and the API set-up in general. Its logical to assume that MS launched the X1 with a fully DX12 compatible GPU, but since it was not available at launch, and they were not ready to talk about it yet, the marketing was surrounding the current DX.11.2 iteration.

#61 Posted by edidili (3446 posts) -

Last two PC's DX release doesn't require new GPUs i.e. AMD GCN fully supports DX11.1 and DX11.2.

Correct me if I'm wrong but both 11.1 and 11.2 are small updates, not exactly a big change. Most of 11.1 were updates for metro apps on 8.

If it doesn't require new hardware then that means there's isn't much there when it comes to new features.

#62 Posted by FoxbatAlpha (5913 posts) -

Cows in denial over what this is going to mean for The One.

That secret sauce is starting to heat to a nice simmer.

#63 Posted by kbanna (665 posts) -

@kbanna: lol don't get ahead of yourself, Ryse looks good. That's about it. The XOne will never match up to the ps4 visually. Once you get that through your head the better.

And Again what PS4 game currently looks as good as Ryse? The only one that comes close is Killzone. So the best looking games this gen so far are on ether system...not one. The sooner you get that through your head the better.

#64 Posted by MdBrOtha04 (1820 posts) -

@FoxbatAlpha: Excuse me but grown men are trying to talk here. Dont bring that rubbish around Us

#65 Edited by ronvalencia (15109 posts) -
@edidili said:

@ronvalencia said:

Last two PC's DX release doesn't require new GPUs i.e. AMD GCN fully supports DX11.1 and DX11.2.

Correct me if I'm wrong but both 11.1 and 11.2 are small updates, not exactly a big change. Most of 11.1 were updates for metro apps on 8.

If it doesn't require new hardware then that means there's isn't much there when it comes to new features.

11.1's feature level 11_1 requires 64 UVA slots for all shader stages (vertex/hull/domain/pixel/compute shaders) while feature level 11_0 requires 8 UVA slots for just pixel and compute shaders.

DX11.0 introduces UVA feature i.e. requires 8 UVA slots for just pixel and compute shaders.

UVA = random memory access.

For competitive reasons, NVIDIA would minimise 64 UVA for all shader stages's introduction when compared to DX11.0's 8 slot UVA for pixel and compute shaders. DX11.1 is only "Metro apps" argument LOL.

DX10.1/DX10.X(NVIDIA's DX10.1 like kit-bash) to DX11.0 = 8 UVA slots for pixel and compute shaders.

DX11.0 to DX11.1(feature level 11_1) = 64 UVA slots for vertex, hull domain, pixel and compute shaders. Small update ??? just Metro apps???

IF a game uses 64 UVAs for shader stages, it will gimp on all current NVIDIA hardware. PC games are designed with lowest common denominator i.e. feature level 11_0. X1/PS4 's rapid install base growth would be important to end feature level 11_0 GPUs.

11.2's Tiled Resource Tier 2 requires feature level 11_1 GPU.

#66 Posted by FoxbatAlpha (5913 posts) -

@MdBrOtha04: ok. There is more to read here about the all powerful ONE and what DX12 could bring. http://www.reddit.com/r/xboxone/comments/1zu1rt/directx12_confirmed_for_xbox_one/

#67 Posted by irtanto30 (6 posts) -

microsoft is the true software innovator while sony is only can copy and paste

#68 Edited by PinkieWinkie (1364 posts) -

@kbanna: You are correct, current ly there is no clear winner. Unfortunately for you, Infamous releases in a couple weeks and The Order releases this fall. Both games blow anything shown on the X1 so far.

#69 Posted by Stevo_the_gamer (42539 posts) -

@kbanna: You are correct, current ly there is no clear winner. Unfortunately for you, Infamous releases in a couple weeks and The Order releases this fall. Both games blow anything shown on the X1 so far.

Why is that unfortunate for him? Does it matter if you think a game on your favorite inanimate object looks better than another game on your least favorite inanimate object? Or, perhaps a better question, should it matter to him what you think?

#70 Posted by tyloss (829 posts) -

@Stevo_the_gamer: he's saying unfortunately in reference to his current argument, pretty tasteless you're selectively quoting just to take personal shots.

#71 Posted by PinkieWinkie (1364 posts) -

@tyloss: yep, thats what he does. Hes a little special.

#72 Posted by kbanna (665 posts) -

@kbanna: You are correct, current ly there is no clear winner. Unfortunately for you, Infamous releases in a couple weeks and The Order releases this fall. Both games blow anything shown on the X1 so far.

Unfortunately for me?......ok. Anyway, again I disagree. I would put the footage we have seen for Quantum Break up against any PS4 game I've seen so far. We will see.

#73 Posted by Daious (892 posts) -

@kbanna said:

@daious:

How would the mantle force DX's hand?

low-level access

#75 Edited by PinkieWinkie (1364 posts) -

@kbanna: lmao, footage? You mean CGI and pre rendered scenes? Ok, cool.

#76 Edited by Opus_Rea-333 (893 posts) -

@PinkieWinkie said:

@banana: lmao, footage? You mean CGI and pre rendered scenes? Ok, cool.

You kinda right, just dont be surprised when Xbox One reaches Avatar quality graphics with DX12. Coming in a few years i guess.

I guess MSoft will let games do the speaking, not specs.

#77 Posted by Krelian-co (10091 posts) -

so when the magic sdk fails to transform xbone in the magic supercomputah will lems fallback to "just you wait for teh directx"!!!!? it's like microsoft keeps pumping magic words for lems with no tangible results

#78 Posted by Opus_Rea-333 (893 posts) -

so when the magic sdk fails to transform xbone in the magic supercomputah will lems fallback to "just you wait for teh directx"!!!!? it's like microsoft keeps pumping magic words for lems with no tangible results

Yea kinda like a magical mushroom. Bro if you know what im saying.

#79 Posted by PinkieWinkie (1364 posts) -

@Opus_Rea-333: troll or serious?

#80 Edited by Opus_Rea-333 (893 posts) -

@PinkieWinkie said:

@Opus_Rea-333: troll or serious?

Judge yourself.

Not many people believe in God yet i do and wishes more people believed in him.

#81 Edited by gamecubepad (6071 posts) -

Well now people might start to get their monies worth. About time. >_>

#82 Edited by Chutebox (36227 posts) -

Oh God. Lems, drop it. PS4 is more powerful, get over it. Nothing will change that

#83 Edited by Opus_Rea-333 (893 posts) -

@gamecubepad said:

Well now people might start to get their monies worth. About time. >_>

Especially those with a Xbox One. :)))))

#84 Posted by kbanna (665 posts) -

so when the magic sdk fails to transform xbone in the magic supercomputah will lems fallback to "just you wait for teh directx"!!!!? it's like microsoft keeps pumping magic words for lems with no tangible results

Let me get on thing straight......Do you Sony fans think that the X1 will not run the majority of multiplatform games in 1080p at 60fps for the majority of this generaton?? Do you feel that Ryse will be the pinnacle of X1 graphics for the remainder of the Generation,or do you admit that there will be better looking games on the system??

#85 Edited by Opus_Rea-333 (893 posts) -

@Chutebox said:

Oh God. Lems, drop out. PS4 is more powerful, get over it. Nothing will change that

hahahahahaa ok but the truth will never be changed by the thing that created it bro.

Please dont question me, im just human.

#86 Posted by Opus_Rea-333 (893 posts) -
@kbanna said:

@Krelian-co said:

so when the magic sdk fails to transform xbone in the magic supercomputah will lems fallback to "just you wait for teh directx"!!!!? it's like microsoft keeps pumping magic words for lems with no tangible results

Let me get on thing straight......Do you Sony fans think that the X1 will not run the majority of multiplatform games in 1080p at 60fps for the majority of this generaton?? Do you feel that Ryse will be the pinnacle of X1 graphics for the remainder of the Generation,or do you admit that there will be better looking games on the system??

kbanna well said. ;)

#87 Posted by lostrib (31888 posts) -

@kbanna said:

@Krelian-co said:

so when the magic sdk fails to transform xbone in the magic supercomputah will lems fallback to "just you wait for teh directx"!!!!? it's like microsoft keeps pumping magic words for lems with no tangible results

Let me get on thing straight......Do you Sony fans think that the X1 will not run the majority of multiplatform games in 1080p at 60fps for the majority of this generaton?? Do you feel that Ryse will be the pinnacle of X1 graphics for the remainder of the Generation,or do you admit that there will be better looking games on the system??

I'm gonna guess they will say Yes to the first question, and a maybe to the second

#88 Posted by Tighaman (709 posts) -

I told you all from the beginning that AMD, Intel, NVIDIA, and MS was a partnership with the X1 the Xbox one was designed by ALL partners. I really think the X1 is fully DX12 and going to show why resolution don't matter. But I'm sure they are gonna make DX12 framework for OpenGL so it will help the ps4 also.

#89 Posted by Stevo_the_gamer (42539 posts) -

@tyloss said:

@Stevo_the_gamer: he's saying unfortunately in reference to his current argument, pretty tasteless you're selectively quoting just to take personal shots.

Where did you see a "personal shot"?

#90 Posted by GameMediator (69 posts) -

@bfmv2007 said:

Before lems get here, Open GL of equal or greater value than DX 12 coming to PS4. Anything DX does, Open GL can do the same. They are both equal and in some ways Open GL is better. But regardless, good new for the Xbone

Developers will be able to store HUGE amounts of data without sacrificing GPU performance. X1 exclusives will have better graphics, WAY more detailed textures, lighting effects, etc. And don't be ignorant PS4 fanboys, X1 games will easily be able to run 1080p 60fps once developers start utilizing Direct X 12.

I find it hilarious and frustrating that people judge the X1's power based on multiplatform games at launch. its ridiculous and stupid. Do you realize that multiplatform games aren't developed with the X1's complex hardware in mind? Look at Tomb Raider, porting that over to X1 obviously won't run as well as PS4 because unlike Sony, Microsoft innovates better than Nintendo ever has. X1 hardware is new and complicated for developers AT THE MOMENT. PS4 is just an updated PS3, nothing new at all.

I Can't wait a couple years from now so they all shut the f**k up, immature kids like to say the word xboners I guess.

#91 Posted by Alcapello (535 posts) -

@tyloss said:

@Stevo_the_gamer: he's saying unfortunately in reference to his current argument, pretty tasteless you're selectively quoting just to take personal shots.

Where did you see a "personal shot"?

I'm guessing this is including "playstation"

#92 Posted by EducatingU_PCMR (492 posts) -

@bfmv2007 said:

Before lems get here, Open GL of equal or greater value than DX 12 coming to PS4. Anything DX does, Open GL can do the same. They are both equal and in some ways Open GL is better. But regardless, good new for the Xbone

Developers will be able to store HUGE amounts of data without sacrificing GPU performance. X1 exclusives will have better graphics, WAY more detailed textures, lighting effects, etc. And don't be ignorant PS4 fanboys, X1 games will easily be able to run 1080p 60fps once developers start utilizing Direct X 12.

I find it hilarious and frustrating that people judge the X1's power based on multiplatform games at launch. its ridiculous and stupid. Do you realize that multiplatform games aren't developed with the X1's complex hardware in mind? Look at Tomb Raider, porting that over to X1 obviously won't run as well as PS4 because unlike Sony, Microsoft innovates better than Nintendo ever has. X1 hardware is new and complicated for developers AT THE MOMENT. PS4 is just an updated PS3, nothing new at all.

I Can't wait a couple years from now so they all shut the f**k up, immature kids like to say the word xboners I guess.

I don't... I don't even...

#93 Edited by MdBrOtha04 (1820 posts) -

@gamemediator:

This is my second time posting this but it completely shuts down that complexity argument:

PS4 Isn't anything like the ps3. Different gpu and cpu maker. Memory was split. The GPU has 256MB of GDDR3 and the CPU has 256MB of XDRAM. The PS3 had dedicated pixel and vertex shaders.

The PS4 is unified Stream processors like the Xbox One and 360

If anything the 360 and the Xbox One are more alike with the gpu being made by AMD in both generations. Both GPU's have unified shader architecture. Both had unified memory shared by both the cpu and gpu. Both have a pool of very fast memory (EDRAM vs ESRAM) for a frame buffer. I'm pretty sure the xbox 360 EDRAM is faster than ESRAM on the One. Bandwidth however out EDRAM was slower however.

So developers have had almost 10 years to figure out this ES/EDRAM business and they are still having issues with 1080p. There must be something else wrong? Maybe the 384 stream processors that the xbox 1 doesn't have is the culprit.

Microsoft saying those extra stream processors wouldn't help is complete BS. Nvidia release $500+ GPU's with lower core and memory clock speed than a $350 gpu and it still runs circles around that cheaper gpu. Why? More cuda cores/higher memory bandwidth.

#94 Edited by ronvalencia (15109 posts) -
@MdBrOtha04 said:

@gamemediator:

This is my second time posting this but it completely shuts down that complexity argument:

PS4 Isn't anything like the ps3. Different gpu and cpu maker. Memory was split. The CPU has 256MB of DDR3 and the GPU has 256MB of XDRAM. The PS3 had dedicated pixel and vertex shaders.

The PS4 is unified Stream processors like the Xbox One and 360

If anything the 360 and the Xbox One are more alike with the gpu being made by AMD in both generations. Both GPU's have unified shader architecture. Both had unified memory shared by both the cpu and gpu. Both have a pool of very fast memory (EDRAM vs ESRAM) for a frame buffer. I'm pretty sure the xbox 360 EDRAM is faster than ESRAM on the One.

So developers have had almost 10 years to figure out this ES/EDRAM business and they are still having issues with 1080p. There must be something else wrong? Maybe the 384 stream processors that the xbox 1 doesn't have is the culprit.

Microsoft saying those extra stream processors wouldn't help is complete BS. Nvidia release $500+ GPU's with lower core and memory clock speed than a $350 gpu and it still runs circles around that cheaper gpu. Why? More cuda cores/higher memory bandwidth.

PS3 has

1. IBM CELL (PowerPC + 8 SPE "DSP like") linked to 256MB Rambus XDR memory.

2. NVIDIA RSX linked to 256MB GDDR3 memory. GDDR3 was designed by ATI with the collaboration of JEDEC.

--------------

Xbox One's GPU has a faster connection to ESRAM than Xbox 360's GPU connection to EDRAM i.e. 204 GB/s vs 32 GB/s.

Xbox One has 768 stream processors clock at 853Mhz NOT 384 stream processors. X1's 12 CU x 16 = 768 stream processors.

PS; I actually have Radeon HD 8570M in my 13 inch Ultrabook with 364 stream processors.

Where did you get "Microsoft saying those extra stream processors wouldn't help" statement? I recall Microsoft has stated 32 ROPS would not increase performance.

The following TR 2013 benchmark (with ultimate setting) is a R9-290 with 1Ghz core clock (via 290X firmware) speed with 69 GB/s memory bandwidth.

Notice the frame rate is nearly X1's ~30 fps results. For this case, Microsoft's statement on extra stream processors wouldn't help would be correct.

#95 Edited by MdBrOtha04 (1820 posts) -

@ronvalencia: 1. Well aware of who made the cpu.

2. Well aware of who made the gpu.

3. Got it from a microsoft technical fellow that posted on neogaf

He basically said they tested the gpu with 14 gcn compute units and found it more beneficial to bump up the clock speed and disabled 2 of the cu's

#96 Posted by PinkieWinkie (1364 posts) -

@ronvalencia: on a scale of 1 to 10, how bad does it bother you knowing the PS4 is more powerful than the XOne?

#97 Posted by tyloss (829 posts) -

@tyloss said:

@Stevo_the_gamer: he's saying unfortunately in reference to his current argument, pretty tasteless you're selectively quoting just to take personal shots.

Where did you see a "personal shot"?

The way you posed your question(s), your implications were pretty clear.

#98 Edited by MdBrOtha04 (1820 posts) -

Major nelson says otherwise a bout the edram banwidth

http://majornelson.com/2005/05/20/xbox-360-vs-ps3-part-4-of-4/

#99 Edited by MdBrOtha04 (1820 posts) -

@ronvalencia:

The ps4 current advantage over the one and the gtx 770 memory and core clock speed vs the gtx 780 throws that Microsoft argument out the water.

For those who don't know the 770 stock has a higher clock gpu and memory that runs 1Ghz (with a G) faster than the 780 but the higher cuda cores count/higher memory bandwidth more than makes up for it.

#100 Posted by Stevo_the_gamer (42539 posts) -

@tyloss said:

The way you posed your question(s), your implications were pretty clear.

You are creating words between lines with preconceived thought. That is unwise.