Bethesda - the most overrated RPG studio of all time.

#251 Posted by turtlethetaffer (16380 posts) -

@Lulu_Lulu: Just that, you know, the best JRPGs are better than your favorite games.

#252 Posted by TrappedInABox91 (460 posts) -

Oblivion and Fallout 3 were some of the best games I ever played.

Fuck it. I think they make great games. Always buggy, but thats almost adds to it sometimes.

#253 Edited by Xeno_ghost (257 posts) -

@Lulu_Lulu: "Actually my theory is RPG arent games at all"

Wow just stop please!!

But I'l stick with the "its not a genre" since its easy for even a brain like yours to comprehend"

Hey watch your mouth pal!! I didn't insult you so I expect the same courtesy so since you've darkened the tone of this light hearted debate I will ablige. You dare to talk about my comprehension when you can't even comprehend that a RPG is a GAME when the word GAME is in the title of the genre.... Oh wait RPG's are not a genre either in your world. Now I'm not the one who thinks just because I think something in my head, that makes it true in reality, I'm not the one that makes ridiculous claims, calls them facts but has not a shred of evidence or even any reasonable reasoning to back them up.

You try and come across as this great radical thinker of gaming but fail miserably.

#254 Posted by Lulu_Lulu (8571 posts) -

@Vaasman

Yes my lil princess, when things are different you treat them name them differently. Did you not learn that in Preschool ?

Music and Video Game genres are nothing like each other and are nothing like Film and Book Genres. How did we even end up arguing about this ?

#255 Posted by Xeno_ghost (257 posts) -

@Krelian-co: " he can't understand the idea that people enjoy tactical or turn based rpgs, that's how dumb he is"

Maybe he doesn't like them because they require logical thinking, something he lacks in a big way.

#256 Edited by Vaasman (11134 posts) -

@Lulu_Lulu said:

@Vaasman

Yes my lil princess, when things are different you treat them name them differently. Did you not learn that in Preschool ?

Music and Video Game genres are nothing like each other and are nothing like Film and Book Genres. How did we even end up arguing about this ?

Because apparently you haven't the first clue what it means to be a genre. Simple as that.

You have no basis as to why RPG's shouldn't be considered a genre, all you have fallen back on for the last 3 goddamn posts is "buh games are different!" Yes, so are music and books, but I don't see morons categorizing songs by their "formula."

Games are a relatively new media, but that doesn't mean changing it's already-established vocabulary to suit your needs isn't exceptionally fucking stupid.

RPG is a genre, accept and move on.

#257 Posted by superclocked (5815 posts) -

Bethesda games win in immersion, that's for sure. There are other good RPG devs out there, but Bethesda's open world style really pulls me in. I love the go anywhere, do anything, interesting landscapes...

#258 Posted by Xeno_ghost (257 posts) -

@superclocked: Cue rant from our darling lulu on how immersion is overrated :P

#259 Edited by freedomfreak (38153 posts) -

If you though it was bad then they have successfully recreated classic President Evil gameplay. so there.

Bad DLC is bad.

#260 Posted by CTR360 (6851 posts) -

i love all bethesda games haters gone be hate skyrim and fallout 3 my top bethesda games

#261 Edited by Lulu_Lulu (8571 posts) -

@Vaasman

Yeah, These definitions have not actually been esablished, need a remind you about the long ass Arguments about what exactly Role Playing is. If its established then why does everyone know it in a different and sometimes contradictory way.

And you have no common sense, why else would you always ask me to prove the obvious....

Anyway, this is another scenario that no amount of explaining is gona clear up because you clearly have issues with me. But like I said before, most other genres name are slightly rough descriptions of what you'l be doing in the game.... You're answer is in there somewhere.

#262 Posted by Lulu_Lulu (8571 posts) -

@freedomfreak

Nostalgia Strikes Again. :p

#263 Edited by freedomfreak (38153 posts) -
#264 Posted by musalala (2096 posts) -

I think this lulu person is dreman999's alt....

#265 Posted by Lulu_Lulu (8571 posts) -

@freedomfreak

Its not like you would know if it wasn't.... calling something not good bad was a dead give away.

#266 Posted by Lulu_Lulu (8571 posts) -

@musalala

Dreman99 defends RPGs, I do the exact opposite.

#267 Edited by Cranler (7719 posts) -

They are somewhat overrated. Pirahna Bytes had all the great new features of Oblivion 5 years earlier in Gothic, with better combat and true rpg progression/leveling.

Gothic had npc schedules and fully voiced dialogue before Morrowind came out.

#268 Posted by freedomfreak (38153 posts) -

Its not like you would know if it wasn't.... calling something not good bad was a dead give away.

I gave my reasons as to why it was not good.

You went full lulu_lulu, and provided absolutely nothing in return, besides the usual nonsensical rambling.

#269 Posted by Lulu_Lulu (8571 posts) -

@freedomfreak

So now name is an adjective ?

"Nonsensical Rambling" ? So you weren't listening yet you whine about me not giving any reasons.

Paradox !

#270 Posted by freedomfreak (38153 posts) -

So now name is an adjective ?

"Nonsensical Rambling" ? So you weren't listening yet you whine about me not giving any reasons.

Paradox !

You have not been making any points at all. Seriously, nothing. Nothing you said had anything to do about my post.

Stop responding to my posts, or any posts, if you have nothing useful to say. You always do this stuff.

#271 Posted by Lulu_Lulu (8571 posts) -

@freedomfreak

And you think that crap you wrote were actual reasons ? Infact I doubt you actually played the damn thing.

#272 Posted by freedomfreak (38153 posts) -

And you think that crap you wrote were actual reasons ? Infact I doubt you actually played the damn thing.

Man, you are one childish individual. Stop wasting my time, and those of others.

You continue to make a fool of yourself with every debate you step into. Seriously, grow up.

#273 Posted by Lulu_Lulu (8571 posts) -

@freedomfreak

You might wana practice what you preach before you get on that high horse of yours, nobody likes a hypocrit.

#274 Edited by freedomfreak (38153 posts) -

You might wana practice what you preach before you get on that high horse of yours, nobody likes a hypocrit.

Feel free to point out where I'm acting like a child in this conversation.

Stop trying to turn this argument into something it's not. It's simple. I gave my reasons. You turned into a child. Good going, Lulu_Lulu.

I'm looking forward to your next response that will exist of nothing but useless rambling. Actually, do yourself a favor and don't bother responding, because you obviously don't feel like contributing anything to this conversation.

Another case of someone not agreeing with you, and you taking it in the most wrong way possible.

#275 Edited by Krelian-co (9983 posts) -

lol, Lulu give it up you are an obnoxious joke, that much is obvious in this thread, keep talking stupid bs, the sad thing is i get this feeling you actually think you are smart or something :(

What a waste of forum space, literally every single post you make is nonsense from you trying too hard.

#277 Edited by Revan_911 (1330 posts) -

"lacks the poignant human element writing and elite character writing that Bioware has"

I chuckled. Bioware are terrible writers too, especially since they try so much and fail. We want to create an epic story sprawling trough three games. We want to create a mature inconventinal RPG. Flat on it's face.

Skyrim didn't even try, the writing came off as very self concious. As if written by twelve year olds for twelve year olds. It was obvious that they put their focus elsewhere.

#278 Edited by Vaasman (11134 posts) -

@Lulu_Lulu said:

@Vaasman

Yeah, These definitions have not actually been esablished, need a remind you about the long ass Arguments about what exactly Role Playing is. If its established then why does everyone know it in a different and sometimes contradictory way.

And you have no common sense, why else would you always ask me to prove the obvious....

Anyway, this is another scenario that no amount of explaining is gona clear up because you clearly have issues with me. But like I said before, most other genres name are slightly rough descriptions of what you'l be doing in the game.... You're answer is in there somewhere.

Yea obviously, that's why simulation games are always perfectly realistic, why 4x always include each x, why tower defense always includes towers, why horror are always scary, why adventure games always include an adventure, Why platformers always use platforms, or why music games have you actually play music.

No wait, all of those all have games that regularly defy them, because they are sorted by similarities in mechanics and not by the shitty opinions of a raving lunatic like yourself.

And what do you mean they haven't been established? Go look at any game's page and they'll tell you what genre's they belong to and RPG is always a possible genre. Developers are always listing RPG as their game's genre, publishers and news outlets refer to games as RPGs to describe them in previews and reviews. RPG literally is role-playing in pencil and paper games. You make up a character and the gameplay is playing your part, almost like improv acting. Not to mention this is the goddamn definition of the word genre. It was before games exists and is long after games came about. How dense can you possibly be?

Again, you have absolutely nothing, please just quit being insane. I have years of context and language on my side and you have a shitty opinion that only you hold. It's like trying to argue that Blue is now Red because you say so.

Edit: and just to be clear, did you actually argue that genre's should be a rough description of themselves, and then argue in further posts that JRPG and WRPG aren't defined by being Japanese and Western? lmao.

#279 Posted by Jag85 (4230 posts) -

@turtlethetaffer

Depends how you define JRPGs. Either way, they suck. ;) I was interested in Deception (Tecmo Koei) though.

JRPG = Japanese RPG

#280 Posted by Lulu_Lulu (8571 posts) -

@Jag85

So you're one of those who believes a JRPG is simply any RPG from Japan ? And WRPG is any RPG from everywhere else ?

#282 Edited by Jag85 (4230 posts) -

@Jag85

So you're one of those who believes a JRPG is simply any RPG from Japan ? And WRPG is any RPG from everywhere else ?

JRPG = Japanese RPG

WRPG = Western RPG

What is so difficult to understand?

#283 Edited by Lulu_Lulu (8571 posts) -

@Jag85

Relax dude, I just wanted some clarification since theres actually a whole other faction of people who believe those terms have little to do with country of origin and are actually two different styles of Role Playing Design and that not all JRPGs come out of Japan.

I just needed to confirm which side you're on 1st. Truth be told both those terms on both sides of the argument are ridiculous since it literally does not occur with other genres.

This industry can be so backwards sometimes.

#284 Posted by lamprey263 (22419 posts) -

Whoever it was that made Deus Ex HR is the most overrated RPG developer of all time.

#285 Posted by Lulu_Lulu (8571 posts) -

@Vaasman

All right, lets go over this one point at a time.

"....simulation games are always perfectly realistic...." - no realism is perfectly realistic, simulations simulate reality. In other words they use methods of abstraction to interpret reality, almost like RPGs in that regard (obviously your definition of role playing is incompatible with that comparison so if you're confused then thats okay).

"4x" uhmmmm.... ?????

".....tower defense always includes towers....." - The "Tower" is just a nick name for the "home base" or "Camp" or whatever, also this is also not an actual genre either, its a formula too just like Role Playing and Open World are formulas.

"....adventure games always include an adventure...." - I'm new to the genre and right now I'm just enjoying it, I haven't reached the "take a closer look" phase just yet but I'm getting there, and look foward to proving you wrong about it :p.

"....platformers always use platforms....." - don't be stupid its a verb not a noun hence platforms are not necessary.

"....music games have you actually play music..." - This is uncharted territory for me but yeah, that sounds about right for some games.

You did read the part where I said they are slightly rough descriptions right ? Or do you also have a different Idea of what "Slightly" actually means ?

Anyway, They haven't been properly established and defined and people are always contesting the the definitions because theres usually an inconsistancy there somewhere. Hell even "Game" hasn't been properly defined yet, go check it out for yourself, they're a whole community dedicated trying to sort out all these cluttered definitions.

FYI depending on which version of PnP RPGs you are talking about, the gameplay is actually you making a choice and the dice determines the outcome, sound familiar ? Yep, old school Role Playing is actually just Shooting Craps with a instructions instead of money. And guess what.... The part of it does not actually belong the definition of RPGs, they applied the RPG formula to Gambling and spliced it with some pen and paper.

heres the thing though, I actually want to discuss these things not argue about them but thats not gonna happen if you you keep disagreeing with me because you don't like me. Get over it.

#286 Edited by Vaasman (11134 posts) -

@Lulu_Lulu said:

@Vaasman

All right, lets go over this one point at a time.

"....simulation games are always perfectly realistic...." - no realism is perfectly realistic, simulations simulate reality. In other words they use methods of abstraction to interpret reality, almost like RPGs in that regard (obviously your definition of role playing is incompatible with that comparison so if you're confused then thats okay).

"4x" uhmmmm.... ?????

".....tower defense always includes towers....." - The "Tower" is just a nick name for the "home base" or "Camp" or whatever, also this is also not an actual genre either, its a formula too just like Role Playing and Open World are formulas.

"....adventure games always include an adventure...." - I'm new to the genre and right now I'm just enjoying it, I haven't reached the "take a closer look" phase just yet but I'm getting there, and look foward to proving you wrong about it :p.

"....platformers always use platforms....." - don't be stupid its a verb not a noun hence platforms are not necessary.

"....music games have you actually play music..." - This is uncharted territory for me but yeah, that sounds about right for some games.

You did read the part where I said they are slightly rough descriptions right ? Or do you also have a different Idea of what "Slightly" actually means ?

Anyway, They haven't been properly established and defined and people are always contesting the the definitions because theres usually an inconsistancy there somewhere. Hell even "Game" hasn't been properly defined yet, go check it out for yourself, they're a whole community dedicated trying to sort out all these cluttered definitions.

FYI depending on which version of PnP RPGs you are talking about, the gameplay is actually you making a choice and the dice determines the outcome, sound familiar ? Yep, old school Role Playing is actually just Shooting Craps with a instructions instead of money. And guess what.... The part of it does not actually belong the definition of RPGs, they applied the RPG formula to Gambling and spliced it with some pen and paper.

heres the thing though, I actually want to discuss these things not argue about them but thats not gonna happen if you you keep disagreeing with me because you don't like me. Get over it.

I'm not even touching the specific genre's again since you can't even argue half of them.

If you're going to use "slightly" to double back on your stupid point then RPG's are "slightly" described by the fact that your are playing with the role, growing and manipulating the character, so don't give me that.

"contesting the the definitions because theres usually an inconsistancy there somewhere." Except that no one but you has argued that RPG shouldn't be considered a genre. Your idea has no base, no support from anyone but you. Not only that, but it's an idea that's nonsensical, as even if it were tried by anyone other that yourself and therefore worthy of consideration, it further complicates what is already a complicated method of categorizing games. It ruins established terminology for no reason other than to satisfy your ego.

Clearly you've never played a lot of PnP gaming, many include no dice and you simply use alloted skills and rules, and play with selected character traits, while the GM has you work through things. But even for games that use dice, it's 90% out thinking the situation with your abilities and traits, and 10% dice rolls. With your shitty logic, maybe FPS shouldn't be a genre if it uses recoil, physics, random spawns, or sorts you against random opponents. I mean that's all RNG, can't be a genre, obviously. Maybe it should be first-person-shooter-and-also-dice-rolling. Don't even get me started on party games or kart racers. You gonna argue that board games are all just gambling?

I'm also willing to guess you've never looked at LARP. I'd bet based on your post, you googled D&D once and decided all PnP is the same.

If you insist on looking like a clown for ever and ever be my guest. There isn't a single shred of logic to your idea at all and I'll be glad to refute you each time while everyone points and laughs at you. If you wanted a simple discussion maybe you should have brought something worth discussing to the table, not your ridiculous idea that is only worth lambasting. And you definitely shouldn't have attempted to argue that I'm the stupid one here.

#287 Posted by Lulu_Lulu (8571 posts) -

@turtlethetaffer

Nothing is Better than Portal 2 :) no RPG of any kind comes close to the beauty of making holes on surfaces.

#288 Posted by texasgoldrush (9096 posts) -

Very amazing how dragons, an incredible, exciting mythical creature, they somehow manage to make repetitive and boring.

In a superior title such as Baldurs Gate, dragons are incredibly rare and hard to find, making them appear important and mystic, with incredible challenge.

In Skyrim you wack one every 15 minutes.

This, it got annoying after a while.

And its quite funny, due to level scaling, Alduin can actually be weaker than a mid level dragon. You know, the World Eater.

Best dragon battles go to Dragon's Dogma however.

#289 Posted by texasgoldrush (9096 posts) -

@musalala said:

@Shielder7:

Agreed, Does Mr Goldrush know that Bioware were actively Looking at Skyrim in order to implement elements of it into Dragon age Inquistion That whole encounter with that Dragon in the demo reeks of Skyrim.If anything Bioware are taking notes from Bethesda

http://kotaku.com/5965711/looks-like-dragon-age-3-will-definitely-be-influenced-by-skyrim

http://www.wired.com/2011/12/dragon-age-3/

http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2011/12/21/bioware-says-next-dragon-age-will-look-to-skyrim/

So yeah Texas Bioware have influenced jack diddly squat as far as WRPG in last 10 years if anything they have actually subtracted from it coz you know they are utter crap

They are taking notes on what NOT to do.

DAI is NOT open world, and it does not have level scaling. Nevermind that dragon battles have always been part of the series.

Other than fast travel, which many games now have. DAI does not look like an Elder Scrolls game at all.

#290 Posted by Lulu_Lulu (8571 posts) -

@Vaasman

Why you mad though ?

Anyway, Perhaps I should expand my point alil more. Most other genres Slightly describe what you'l being doing and HOW you'l being doing it. If you think I'm not being specifice enough then calm down, thats by design, don't forget where you are, System Wars, where nobody actually changes their oppinion, no matter how right or wrong, theres no room for logic here so don't act as if you'd be willing to entertain the notion that you could be proven wrong. Now Where was I ? Oh yeah, Role Playing on the other hand is a little more than just a "slightly rough description", its the most vague and versatile of all the "genres", you can turn just about any game into an RPG just be adding "Role Playing Elements" from hack n slash to card games and all the many actual genres in between. Saying a game is an RPG tells you didly squat about how a game is played, and I don't mean how its played specifically I mean it tells absolutely nothing other than you'l be building and defining a characer, the "how" is not with in the scope of an RPGs definition, Role Playing simply cannot stand on its own, it needs something to attach itself to its the "fungus" of the video gaming world. HOW you Play a role (or Role Play) is where the actual genre of the game really is and Role Playing is merely the formula thats been applied to it, and that goes double for your precious Pen and Paper RPGs. I could go further but you too stuborn to entertain the idea, so whenever you want, you can figure the rest out for your self.

#291 Edited by Vaasman (11134 posts) -

@Lulu_Lulu said:

@Vaasman

Why you mad though ?

Anyway, Perhaps I should expand my point alil more. Most other genres Slightly describe what you'l being doing and HOW you'l being doing it. If you think I'm not being specifice enough then calm down, thats by design, don't forget where you are, System Wars, where nobody actually changes their oppinion, no matter how right or wrong, theres no room for logic here so don't act as if you'd be willing to entertain the notion that you could be proven wrong. Now Where was I ? Oh yeah, Role Playing on the other hand is a little more than just a "slightly rough description", its the most vague and versatile of all the "genres", you can turn just about any game into an RPG just be adding "Role Playing Elements" from hack n slash to card games and all the many actual genres in between. Saying a game is an RPG tells you didly squat about how a game is played, and I don't mean how its played specifically I mean it tells absolutely nothing other than you'l be building and defining a characer, the "how" is not with in the scope of an RPGs definition, Role Playing simply cannot stand on its own, it needs something to attach itself to its the "fungus" of the video gaming world. HOW you Play a role (or Role Play) is where the actual genre of the game really is and Role Playing is merely the formula thats been applied to it, and that goes double for your precious Pen and Paper RPGs. I could go further but you too stuborn to entertain the idea, so whenever you want, you can figure the rest out for your self.

This post looks like it was made by a drunk.

Bullshitting about how this is system wars and you can't change opinions is the equivalent of giving up, which would certainly be wise in your case but I guess you rolled a 3 in wisdom. If you had anything even resembling a competent argument worth consideration, then maybe you could change an opinion. But your textual diarrhea isn't anything close to that. You haven't made a single intelligent point and you just look more and more like a fool with every post.

And for the thousandth time, what you're describing is exactly what the word genre means. The word "formula" that you keep using is a simile and it's painfully obvious you're using it for no purpose other than to over-complicate things as an e-peen grab. Games that use similar systems and mechanics are part of the same genre. That's how all logical system of categorization see it. In RPGs, you gain experience, level up, customize characters and equipment, explore, buy, sell, and alter your experience based on who you'd like to be.

Gameplay alone does not define what genre something belongs to, and it never has, to anyone, ever, except you. This is why Portal is never considered the same genre as Amnesia, for example, even though it's pretty much the same gameplay of first-person puzzling. Don't even talk about PnP anymore, you clearly don't know anything about traditional games and you couldn't even pretend to counter what I said about them with this latest post, or any of the other points I made about RNG and the gameplay for that matter.

"you can figure the rest out for your self." This is what someone who has nothing says. You don't have a real argument, so you just cry and divert the effort on to me as if it's my job to convince myself. Well I have seen for myself, and guess what, Gamespot calls RPG a genre. So does metacritic, so does Giantbomb, so does IGN, so does every reputable website dedicated to gaming, and some that aren't such as wikipedia. Game developers and publishers all call there related games as much. By all accounts, definitions, logic, and evidence, RPG can be considered a genre and for no reason should be changed to anything less.

You're just dead wrong. Period. It's not an idea remotely worth entertaining.

#292 Posted by turtlethetaffer (16380 posts) -
@Vaasman said:

@Lulu_Lulu said:

@Vaasman

Why you mad though ?

Anyway, Perhaps I should expand my point alil more. Most other genres Slightly describe what you'l being doing and HOW you'l being doing it. If you think I'm not being specifice enough then calm down, thats by design, don't forget where you are, System Wars, where nobody actually changes their oppinion, no matter how right or wrong, theres no room for logic here so don't act as if you'd be willing to entertain the notion that you could be proven wrong. Now Where was I ? Oh yeah, Role Playing on the other hand is a little more than just a "slightly rough description", its the most vague and versatile of all the "genres", you can turn just about any game into an RPG just be adding "Role Playing Elements" from hack n slash to card games and all the many actual genres in between. Saying a game is an RPG tells you didly squat about how a game is played, and I don't mean how its played specifically I mean it tells absolutely nothing other than you'l be building and defining a characer, the "how" is not with in the scope of an RPGs definition, Role Playing simply cannot stand on its own, it needs something to attach itself to its the "fungus" of the video gaming world. HOW you Play a role (or Role Play) is where the actual genre of the game really is and Role Playing is merely the formula thats been applied to it, and that goes double for your precious Pen and Paper RPGs. I could go further but you too stuborn to entertain the idea, so whenever you want, you can figure the rest out for your self.

This post looks like it was made by a drunk.

Bullshitting about how this is system wars and you can't change opinions is the equivalent of giving up, which would certainly be wise in your case but I guess you rolled a 3 in wisdom. If you had anything even resembling a competent argument worth consideration, then maybe you could change an opinion. But your textual diarrhea isn't anything close to that. You haven't made a single intelligent point and you just look more and more like a fool with every post.

And for the thousandth time, what you're describing is exactly what the word genre means. The word "formula" that you keep using is a simile and it's painfully obvious you're using it for no purpose other than to over-complicate things as an e-peen grab. Games that use similar systems and mechanics are part of the same genre. That's how all logical system of categorization see it. In RPGs, you gain experience, level up, customize characters and equipment, explore, buy, sell, and alter your experience based on who you'd like to be.

Gameplay alone does not define what genre something belongs to, and it never has, to anyone, ever, except you. This is why Portal is never considered the same genre as Amnesia, for example, even though it's pretty much the same gameplay of first-person puzzling. Don't even talk about PnP anymore, you clearly don't know anything about traditional games and you couldn't even pretend to counter what I said about them with this latest post, or any of the other points I made about RNG and the gameplay for that matter.

"you can figure the rest out for your self." This is what someone who has nothing says. You don't have a real argument, so you just cry and divert the effort on to me as if it's my job to convince myself. Well I have seen for myself, and guess what, Gamespot calls RPG a genre. So does metacritic, so does Giantbomb, so does IGN, so does every reputable website dedicated to gaming, and some that aren't such as wikipedia. Game developers and publishers all call there related games as much. By all accounts, definitions, logic, and evidence, RPG can be considered a genre and for no reason should be changed to anything less.

You're just dead wrong. Period. It's not an idea remotely worth entertaining.

I've been under the impression that Lulu_Lulu is always drunk when (s)he posts.

Also if you literally break down the term RPG then yes every game can be an RPG whatever. However when most gamers hear the term RPG they think leveling up, fighting monsters, developing classes/ party and that's what you get most of the time from an RPG. It's just like hack n slash games. Technically, you could call Zelda a hack n slash since you literally hack and slash your way through monsters, but I think it's safe to say that when most people hear hack n slash, they do not think Zelda, they think of something like Devil May Cry, where you need to build combos and keep a rhythm with combat to be successful, as opposed to Zelda, where it's more about exploration and puzzle solving with some sword fighting in the mix.

On the flip side, when most people hear RPG, they might think Dragon quest, Elder Scrolls, Pokemon, KOTOR, but almost nobody would think Call of Duty even though in CoD you are literally playing the role of a soldier.

#293 Posted by Vaasman (11134 posts) -

I've been under the impression that Lulu_Lulu is always drunk when (s)he posts.

Also if you literally break down the term RPG then yes every game can be an RPG whatever. However when most gamers hear the term RPG they think leveling up, fighting monsters, developing classes/ party and that's what you get most of the time from an RPG. It's just like hack n slash games. Technically, you could call Zelda a hack n slash since you literally hack and slash your way through monsters, but I think it's safe to say that when most people hear hack n slash, they do not think Zelda, they think of something like Devil May Cry, where you need to build combos and keep a rhythm with combat to be successful, as opposed to Zelda, where it's more about exploration and puzzle solving with some sword fighting in the mix.

On the flip side, when most people hear RPG, they might think Dragon quest, Elder Scrolls, Pokemon, KOTOR, but almost nobody would think Call of Duty even though in CoD you are literally playing the role of a soldier.

This has always been what the term really means and why it was reused in the transition from tabletop to video games. You're not playing a role, you're playing with a roll. You alter your game play significantly by developing your character or party. Improving them, strengthening them and customizing them in the ways you like. The actual systems for combat and such don't count for much on their own, as long as they are solid enough for you to feel meaningful development and progression.

And don't get me wrong, sometimes the line isn't as concrete as all that. Games like Mass Effect 2 graze the line with their simplified stats and economy. But no one sane is going to argue that Baldur's Gate 2 is a real-time strategy because it's top down, just like no one sane would argue CoD is an RPG because you level up and gain new abilities. There's a pretty clear distinction between RPG and using-RPG-elements. To anyone except Lulu_Lulu, apparently.

#294 Edited by texasgoldrush (9096 posts) -

"lacks the poignant human element writing and elite character writing that Bioware has"

I chuckled. Bioware are terrible writers too, especially since they try so much and fail. We want to create an epic story sprawling trough three games. We want to create a mature inconventinal RPG. Flat on it's face.

Skyrim didn't even try, the writing came off as very self concious. As if written by twelve year olds for twelve year olds. It was obvious that they put their focus elsewhere.

How do they fail?

Bioware characters, simply put, are the most popular and well known in WRPGs from Minsc, to HK47, to Tali. And simply put, they have gotten better in character writing, ditching bad habits like turning them into mannequin talking codex entries.

#295 Posted by Lulu_Lulu (8571 posts) -

@Vaasman

I'm going to skip over the insults, anyway....

".... you gain experience, level up, customize characters and equipment, explore, buy, sell, and alter your experience based on who you'd like to be...."

No argument here, I fully agree with that, the question is HOW ? That experience has to be earned by doing something, you're not just given a character to customize willy nilly with resources just for customization's sake, you have to actually go out and actually do something (usually tedious and extremely repititive). The methods by which any specific RPG allows you to build your character is the actual genre of the game.

"Gameplay alone does not define what genre something belongs to, and it never has, to anyone, ever, except you."

This is an entirely seperate argument and trust me when I say you are most definately not going to like my oppinion on what "gaming" and "gameplay" is and is not. But I see you're starting to see exactly what I'm talking about (and as expected you are too mad to even consider the possibility) part of me as happy though :).... Anyway Portal, unlike RPGs, is actually made from a sum of equal parts, "1st Person Puzzle Platformer" (you can even call it a shooter), each of those parts, 1st Person Shooter, Platformer and Puzzle Game, can stand on their own since they can be easily defined, can execute their nature easily and they give a more than clear description of what you'l be doing and how you'l be doing it. And to call Portal a 1st just a FPS or a Puzzle Game or a Platformer is still very informative about the nature of the type of game it really is.

RPGs are far too versatile for their own good and whenever someone says something is an RPG, all one can say for certain is that it will feature number crunching, the actuall nature of how the game is played can be applied to 90% (yes I made that statistic up, and yet its still true) of all other actual genres. Skyrim is an Action, Dialogue Simulator Role Playing Game. FYI "Action" is an "Umbrella" Term not a real genre, action simply means the game feature different methods of play... More on that later, anyway.... Dialogue/Decision based games and Action Games stand on their own, whats left behind is a formula that can't do what its suppose to do because it has no method to execute its definition. I merely suggested that it wasn't an actuall genre but certain other people have theorized that Role Playing is not a game at all one which I agree with but not ready to argue just yet, I know you'l disagree with me because we have different definitions of what a game actually is.

"Gamespot calls RPG a genre."

yes it does, and so do many people. Remember when only a handfull of people thought the earth was round and it revolves around the sun ? Remember how wrong the minority were just because the majority thought differently, regardless of logic and proof ? Well do you remember ? Come on Mr. Popular Oppinion, explain to me how right you are because you more people agree with you. Go ahead, I have all day.

#296 Edited by Vaasman (11134 posts) -

@Lulu_Lulu said:

@Vaasman

I'm going to skip over the insults, anyway....

".... you gain experience, level up, customize characters and equipment, explore, buy, sell, and alter your experience based on who you'd like to be...."

No argument here, I fully agree with that, the question is HOW ? That experience has to be earned by doing something, you're not just given a character to customize willy nilly with resources just for customization's sake, you have to actually go out and actually do something (usually tedious and extremely repititive). The methods by which any specific RPG allows you to build your character is the actual genre of the game.

"Gameplay alone does not define what genre something belongs to, and it never has, to anyone, ever, except you."

This is an entirely seperate argument and trust me when I say you are most definately not going to like my oppinion on what "gaming" and "gameplay" is and is not. But I see you're starting to see exactly what I'm talking about (and as expected you are too mad to even consider the possibility) part of me as happy though :).... Anyway Portal, unlike RPGs, is actually made from a sum of equal parts, "1st Person Puzzle Platformer" (you can even call it a shooter), each of those parts, 1st Person Shooter, Platformer and Puzzle Game, can stand on their own since they can be easily defined, can execute their nature easily and they give a more than clear description of what you'l be doing and how you'l be doing it. And to call Portal a 1st just a FPS or a Puzzle Game or a Platformer is still very informative about the nature of the type of game it really is.

RPGs are far too versatile for their own good and whenever someone says something is an RPG, all one can say for certain is that it will feature number crunching, the actuall nature of how the game is played can be applied to 90% (yes I made that statistic up, and yet its still true) of all other actual genres. Skyrim is an Action, Dialogue Simulator Role Playing Game. FYI "Action" is an "Umbrella" Term not a real genre, action simply means the game feature different methods of play... More on that later, anyway.... Dialogue/Decision based games and Action Games stand on their own, whats left behind is a formula that can't do what its suppose to do because it has no method to execute its definition. I merely suggested that it wasn't an actuall genre but certain other people have theorized that Role Playing is not a game at all one which I agree with but not ready to argue just yet, I know you'l disagree with me because we have different definitions of what a game actually is.

"Gamespot calls RPG a genre."

yes it does, and so do many people. Remember when only a handfull of people thought the earth was round and it revolves around the sun ? Remember how wrong the minority were just because the majority thought differently, regardless of logic and proof ? Well do you remember ? Come on Mr. Popular Oppinion, explain to me how right you are because you more people agree with you. Go ahead, I have all day.

What a clown.

"The methods by which any specific RPG allows you to build your character is the actual genre of the game."

So when I spend the a majority of time in flexible dialogue, in menus, exploring, and looking over statistics and skills, that in no way is part of the gameplay itself? Yea sorry, you're full of it. Earlier you tried to argue that even the concept of a game isn't set, and yet with that same breath you'd completely dismiss an entire genre from existence just because it's combat structure, though only a small fraction of it's appeal, is part of the game. It's baffling especially when you again consider in PnP that the entire game is combing through your set of skills to find the solutions to problems with no alternative gameplay involved. Sorry, but that's the real meat of the game and what the genre is based on, not the combat sections. Quit being stupid and pretending otherwise.

"RPGs are far too versatile for their own good and whenever someone says something is an RPG, all one can say for certain is that it will feature number crunching, the actuall nature of how the game is played can be applied to 90% (yes I made that statistic up, and yet its still true) of all other actual genres."

I don't know how many times you're going to make us stomach this. It's pretty clear you have no idea what the word genre means, as that's the entire point is to gather a large and varied set of games into more organized groupings. Using the word "formula" you do is the exact same thing. I'm willing to bet you're just complicating the matter because you really thought you were being clever and making a new convention. It wasn't, and you weren't.

Yes RPG's are all very different, just like Kart racing is very different from Forza, or a soccer video game is very different from baseball game, yet all are parts of the same overarching genres. Games can in fact be part of multiple genres or sub-genres, and many will defy conventions completely, same as any media or any categorization system. Your convolution doesn't change that. And yes, It's true that non-RPGs can borrow elements from RPG's because the progression part of RPG's works well in a lot of other places. But the difference between a bona fide RPG and lite games is still night and day. The distinction is clear, thus the genre exists. Accept it, and move on to an opinion that is worth a damn.

"yes it does, and so do many people. Remember when only a handfull of people thought the earth was round and it revolves around the sun ? Remember how wrong the minority were just because the majority thought differently, regardless of logic and proof ? Well do you remember ? Come on Mr. Popular Oppinion, explain to me how right you are because you more people agree with you. Go ahead, I have all day."

Oh. My. God. Are you even serious? Be honest, you're just trolling at this point right? Did you seriously just compare video game categorization to ancient astronomy? Language is not like a normal science, it is generated by what catches on, what people regularly use, and what new phrases necessarily come about for new situations. Astronomy is pure observation and calculation, the science only changed when scientists solidly prove a theory. The comparison in your analogy isn't even close to working.

Fact of the matter is, you actually do need popularity and simplicity for anything new to be generated in language. Which is why it's stupid to try and change what is already working when nothing is broken. You think I just keep bringing up that it's used regularly because it's a strawman? No, I bring it up because that's how linguistics works. When every major outlet for information uses terms one way, trying to change the terms just to suit your sad little personal needs is ridiculous. You can't just randomly change terms up for concepts we already have down, and hope it sticks, or makes any sense, or that people won't just get as annoyed as I already am.

Or perhaps you think it's perfectly okay if I just start calling kinect games "No controller fun times"? Because that's the same level of stupidity as what you're attempting to argue here.

#297 Posted by Jag85 (4230 posts) -

@Jag85

Relax dude, I just wanted some clarification since theres actually a whole other faction of people who believe those terms have little to do with country of origin and are actually two different styles of Role Playing Design and that not all JRPGs come out of Japan.

I just needed to confirm which side you're on 1st. Truth be told both those terms on both sides of the argument are ridiculous since it literally does not occur with other genres.

This industry can be so backwards sometimes.

In that case, I agree. The arguments I've seen from the faction who think "JRPG" and "WRPG" are different genres are either incredibly inconsistent or downright ignorant. "JRPG" and "WRPG" are regional industries, not different genres.

@Vaasman said:

@Lulu_Lulu said:

@Vaasman

Yeah, These definitions have not actually been esablished, need a remind you about the long ass Arguments about what exactly Role Playing is. If its established then why does everyone know it in a different and sometimes contradictory way.

And you have no common sense, why else would you always ask me to prove the obvious....

Anyway, this is another scenario that no amount of explaining is gona clear up because you clearly have issues with me. But like I said before, most other genres name are slightly rough descriptions of what you'l be doing in the game.... You're answer is in there somewhere.

Yea obviously, that's why simulation games are always perfectly realistic, why 4x always include each x, why tower defense always includes towers, why horror are always scary, why adventure games always include an adventure, Why platformers always use platforms, or why music games have you actually play music.

No wait, all of those all have games that regularly defy them, because they are sorted by similarities in mechanics and not by the shitty opinions of a raving lunatic like yourself.

And what do you mean they haven't been established? Go look at any game's page and they'll tell you what genre's they belong to and RPG is always a possible genre. Developers are always listing RPG as their game's genre, publishers and news outlets refer to games as RPGs to describe them in previews and reviews. RPG literally is role-playing in pencil and paper games. You make up a character and the gameplay is playing your part, almost like improv acting. Not to mention this is the goddamn definition of the word genre. It was before games exists and is long after games came about. How dense can you possibly be?

Again, you have absolutely nothing, please just quit being insane. I have years of context and language on my side and you have a shitty opinion that only you hold. It's like trying to argue that Blue is now Red because you say so.

Edit: and just to be clear, did you actually argue that genre's should be a rough description of themselves, and then argue in further posts that JRPG and WRPG aren't defined by being Japanese and Western? lmao.

Simulation games are not even close to "perfectly" realistic. They're just an attempt at simulating a real activity. Even a sports game as primitive as Pong is technically a simulation game.

Tower defense games don't have to include towers. It refers to a style of strategy gameplay, not to the inclusion of towers. For example, Crystal Defenders is a tower defense game without any towers.

Horror games are not always scary. Many of today's "action horror" games are not scary at all, like for example, the recent Resident Evil games.

Adventure games don't always include an adventure. Again, it refers to a style of gameplay, not necessarily going on an adventure. Many of the early adventure games were murder mysteries, like Mystery House and Portopia Serial Murder Case, not adventures. The term "adventure game" comes from Colossal Cave Adventure, the foundation for the genre.

Platform games don't always use platforms. Platforming can involve jumping over obstacles or gaps, not just between platforms.

#298 Posted by Mickeyminime (1103 posts) -

Bethseda do make some brilliant games, it's just a shame that most are buggy and what not. Oblivion was the first game i got from Bethseda and i seriously loved it. It is one of my best PS3 games i own. Fallout was difficult to get in to, but in the end, i really enjoyed it. Skyrim, again, it was difficult getting into, i prefered Oblivion over Skyrim for a while, but finally, Skyrim is brilliant, specially on the PC with it's mods. I play Skyrim on the PC a lot. I do wish they sorted out the bugs, glitches and other problems, but Bethseda do make some awesome games.

#299 Posted by jg4xchamp (46610 posts) -

I've been under the impression that Lulu_Lulu is always drunk when (s)he posts.

Also if you literally break down the term RPG then yes every game can be an RPG whatever. However when most gamers hear the term RPG they think leveling up, fighting monsters, developing classes/ party and that's what you get most of the time from an RPG.

Both of those would be ignorant definitions of what a RPG is.

#300 Posted by speedfreak48t5p (6150 posts) -

Fallout New Vegas > Every Bethesda game. Not this post matters since this thread has devolved into Lulu_Lulu fighting with everyone.