Aonuma will be careful about tutorials in Zelda Wii-U

#1 Edited by Demonjoe93 (9515 posts) -

GameSpot article here.

"When we created Skyward Sword, I really felt the need to make sure that everyone playing the game understood it. But I also understand now, in hindsight, that when you go out and buy a game, you buy the game because you want to play it, and you don't want to have any obstacles in the way. And I guess it was received as a bit of an obstacle."

In other words, they've listened to the negative responses Skyward Sword got for its massive amount of mandatory tutorials, some of them being real "no shit" moments from Fi.

#2 Posted by ActicEdge (24332 posts) -

As far as Zelda is concerned I don't believe shit about what they say until I play it. When I played ALTTP at 10 years old I didn't need text to constantly pop up and tell me red rupees are worth 20. Why on earth do they think shit like that is needed?

#3 Edited by Desmonic (13180 posts) -

Yes.

Yes he will.

#4 Posted by nini200 (9467 posts) -

MEGAMAN MEGAMAN!!!! Press A to jump.

MEGAMAN MEGAMAN!!!! Um my bad.

MEGAMAN MEGAMAN!!!! You are my brother!!!! O.O

#5 Edited by Demonjoe93 (9515 posts) -

As far as Zelda is concerned I don't believe shit about what they say until I play it. When I played ALTTP at 10 years old I didn't need text to constantly pop up and tell me red rupees are worth 20. Why on earth do they think shit like that is needed?

I hate that too. I get my fiftieth red rupee and the game feels the need to tell me that it's worth twenty rupees.

#6 Edited by ReadingRainbow4 (13113 posts) -

Good! The best teacher is experience.

Every developer should subscribe to the darksouls way of doing things, when you build a whole dungeon around the training of 1 item there's a problem.

Also because that's the only time you will ever use that damn device ever again in most occasions.

#7 Posted by ConanTheStoner (4534 posts) -

"When we created Skyward Sword, I really felt the need to make sure that everyone playing the game understood it.

Didn't work for McShea. Heyoo!

No really though, that's good news. I can't stand having my hand held through the first hour or two of a game.

#8 Posted by TilxWLOC (1029 posts) -

That is good to hear. That was THE problem with Skyward Sword, otherwise it was a great game, but that was a severe hindrance. I don't know why they didn't learn their lesson with Twilight Princess. Although, we don't know how far they'll take it, we might still have irritating tutorials, but only for certain mechanics. We'll see.

#9 Posted by Demonjoe93 (9515 posts) -

Good! The best teacher is experience.

Every developer should subscribe to the darksouls way of doing things, when you build a whole dungeon around the training of 1 item there's a problem.

Also because that's the only time you will ever use that damn device ever again in most occasions.

Like the boomerang in Ocarina of Time. Except for retrieving gold skulltula tokens, you're never going to use that thing outside of its dungeon.

#11 Edited by ReadingRainbow4 (13113 posts) -

@ReadingRainbow4 said:

Good! The best teacher is experience.

Every developer should subscribe to the darksouls way of doing things, when you build a whole dungeon around the training of 1 item there's a problem.

Also because that's the only time you will ever use that damn device ever again in most occasions.

Like the boomerang in Ocarina of Time. Except for retrieving gold skulltula tokens, you're never going to use that thing outside of its dungeon.

That was n64 man, a ways back.

There's plenty of other objects in zelda that see around 1 dungeon of use, Twilight Princess was a big offender of that.

#12 Posted by Demonjoe93 (9515 posts) -

@Demonjoe93 said:

@ReadingRainbow4 said:

Good! The best teacher is experience.

Every developer should subscribe to the darksouls way of doing things, when you build a whole dungeon around the training of 1 item there's a problem.

Also because that's the only time you will ever use that damn device ever again in most occasions.

Like the boomerang in Ocarina of Time. Except for retrieving gold skulltula tokens, you're never going to use that thing outside of its dungeon.

That was n64 man, a ways back.

There's plenty of other objects in zelda that see around 1 dungeon of use, Twilight Princess was a big offender of that.

That was just the example I think of most. :P

Yeah, I remember Twilight Princess had a huge problem with unused items. It had a ball-and-chain that didn't get a lot of use, and a spin-top too, although I think that one did get some out-of-dungeon use (but not a lot).

#13 Posted by Heil68 (43244 posts) -

or have a separate, skippable tutorial.

#14 Posted by PurpleMan5000 (6859 posts) -

Well, that's good.

#15 Edited by ReadingRainbow4 (13113 posts) -

@Demonjoe93 said:

@ReadingRainbow4 said:

@Demonjoe93 said:

@ReadingRainbow4 said:

Good! The best teacher is experience.

Every developer should subscribe to the darksouls way of doing things, when you build a whole dungeon around the training of 1 item there's a problem.

Also because that's the only time you will ever use that damn device ever again in most occasions.

Like the boomerang in Ocarina of Time. Except for retrieving gold skulltula tokens, you're never going to use that thing outside of its dungeon.

That was n64 man, a ways back.

There's plenty of other objects in zelda that see around 1 dungeon of use, Twilight Princess was a big offender of that.

That was just the example I think of most. :P

Yeah, I remember Twilight Princess had a huge problem with unused items. It had a ball-and-chain that didn't get a lot of use, and a spin-top too, although I think that one did get some out-of-dungeon use (but not a lot).

They kind of got rid of the problem in a link between worlds but that game by no means requires a mastering of it's items in the first place. The thing that concerns me is they talked about using the rental system again for items, I really hate this because it totally takes away that awesome feeling of discovering a new power up, one of my favorite aspects of both zelda and metroid. That feeling of discovery.

But yeah that Spin-Top was sick, it's a pitty it could only be used in pre-determined areas, it would have been awesome if you could combine the spin-top into your attacks, for example using the ball and chain with it and being a whirlwind of destruction.

#16 Posted by Wild_man_22 (572 posts) -

Fi was pretty obnoxious at times. I began replaying the game recently and I now I just ignore the annoying ringing that goes off whenever she wants to tell me about my low health or how to use dowsing. It's good to hear they will be limited.

#17 Edited by Gue1 (9416 posts) -

cut the leash, cut it!

#18 Posted by foxhound_fox (87368 posts) -

Make them organic. If the game senses someone is struggling, then it can step in and help. The best way to approach tutorials these days is to make them available for people who need them, not force every gamer down the path.

And given this new Zelda's design philosophy (go wherever you want, whenever you want), let people figure shit out on their own. Experimentation is the best way to learn a game's mechanics. Dying in a game is not an end point, where the average gamer gets discouraged and quits. People would be surprised at how death spurs people on to do better each subsequent time. Just balance it well enough that the accomplishment outweighs the failure.

#19 Edited by freedomfreak (38717 posts) -
@Heil68 said:

or have a separate, skippable tutorial.

This.

It makes for a much better 2nd playthrough.

#20 Posted by Pffrbt (6471 posts) -

The constant hand-holding and tutorials completely ruined Skyward Sword for me. It really sounds like they're addressing all of the problems I've had with Zelda for years now, I hope it lives up to the promise.

#21 Posted by GunSmith1_basic (9744 posts) -

It's funny how Skyward Sword fans were screaming bloody murder about how horrible McShea's review was, and yet everything we're hearing about the new game seems like it could have been made with McShea's SS review as the guiding template.

I enjoyed Skyward Sword, but everything McShea said was the gospel truth (yes even the controls) and the score was even generous.

#22 Posted by DJ-Lafleur (34123 posts) -

Honestly, the tutorials/handholding were the least of my issues with SS, and I do not recall Fi even popping up anymore than, say, Navi did with her "hey listens." I by no means liked Fi, but atmost she was a minor issue (similar to Navi). It's nice that this is getting dealt with though.

#23 Posted by Sword-Demon (6943 posts) -

Honestly, the tutorials/handholding were the least of my issues with SS, and I do not recall Fi even popping up anymore than, say, Navi did with her "hey listens." I by no means liked Fi, but atmost she was a minor issue (similar to Navi). It's nice that this is getting dealt with though.

My problem with Fi was that she flat out told you exactly what to do. Whenever there would have been a half-decent puzzle, she ruined it. Whenever something was completely obvious, she felt the need to make sure I knew. That and she was pretending to be a computer. "I predict a 98% chance that-" Shut the hell up Fi...

Navi was annoying, but Fi actually made me dislike the game - a horrible character with no redeeming qualities.

They screwed up with Navi, slightly improved with Tatl, improved more with the King of Red Lions, got it perfect with Midna, and then they fucked up everything and gave us Fi.

#24 Posted by Pffrbt (6471 posts) -

Honestly, the tutorials/handholding were the least of my issues with SS, and I do not recall Fi even popping up anymore than, say, Navi did with her "hey listens." I by no means liked Fi, but atmost she was a minor issue (similar to Navi). It's nice that this is getting dealt with though.

The difference between Fi and Navi is that Navi was almost completely optional and actually told you some helpful information and doesn't outright spoil puzzle solutions. Fi isn't optional. Fi relentlessly interrupts the game over and over to spew the obvious at you, and even outright spoils puzzle solutions. That shit alone is enough to ruin the game, but there's additional hand-holding on top of that. Every new play session the game feels the need to repeat the same information over and over every single time you pick up something. It's maddening.

#25 Posted by 93BlackHawk93 (5198 posts) -

@DJ-Lafleur said:

Honestly, the tutorials/handholding were the least of my issues with SS, and I do not recall Fi even popping up anymore than, say, Navi did with her "hey listens." I by no means liked Fi, but atmost she was a minor issue (similar to Navi). It's nice that this is getting dealt with though.

My problem with Fi was that she flat out told you exactly what to do. Whenever there would have been a half-decent puzzle, she ruined it. Whenever something was completely obvious, she felt the need to make sure I knew. That and she was pretending to be a computer. "I predict a 98% chance that-" Shut the hell up Fi...

Navi was annoying, but Fi actually made me dislike the game - a horrible character with no redeeming qualities.

They screwed up with Navi, slightly improved with Tatl, improved more with the King of Red Lions, got it perfect with Midna, and then they fucked up everything and gave us Fi.

Fi was supposed to be the opposite of Ghirahim. That's why she has no emotions.

I'm still trying to figure out how was Navi annoying. Every time she said "Hey listen!" it was optional if you wanted to hear what she had to say.

#26 Posted by 93BlackHawk93 (5198 posts) -

It's funny how Skyward Sword fans were screaming bloody murder about how horrible McShea's review was, and yet everything we're hearing about the new game seems like it could have been made with McShea's SS review as the guiding template.

I enjoyed Skyward Sword, but everything McShea said was the gospel truth (yes even the controls) and the score was even generous.

I don't recall having any problems with the controls. I guess the setup was misplaced by those who had.

#27 Posted by Shmiity (5013 posts) -

Skyward sword had numerous problems. Not just this.

#28 Posted by EducatingU_PCMR (537 posts) -

Nintendo making games for kids. They need to be specific for their immature audience.

People might get a stroke without tutorials.

#29 Posted by Sword-Demon (6943 posts) -

@Sword-Demon said:

@DJ-Lafleur said:

Honestly, the tutorials/handholding were the least of my issues with SS, and I do not recall Fi even popping up anymore than, say, Navi did with her "hey listens." I by no means liked Fi, but atmost she was a minor issue (similar to Navi). It's nice that this is getting dealt with though.

My problem with Fi was that she flat out told you exactly what to do. Whenever there would have been a half-decent puzzle, she ruined it. Whenever something was completely obvious, she felt the need to make sure I knew. That and she was pretending to be a computer. "I predict a 98% chance that-" Shut the hell up Fi...

Navi was annoying, but Fi actually made me dislike the game - a horrible character with no redeeming qualities.

They screwed up with Navi, slightly improved with Tatl, improved more with the King of Red Lions, got it perfect with Midna, and then they fucked up everything and gave us Fi.

Fi was supposed to be the opposite of Ghirahim. That's why she has no emotions.

I'm still trying to figure out how was Navi annoying. Every time she said "Hey listen!" it was optional if you wanted to hear what she had to say.

because if you didn't listen to her, she kept pestering you

#30 Edited by AznbkdX (3120 posts) -

I never thought tutorials were really a problem, but its good to see that he is taking a look at it. They should be like ALBW, as in a sign tells you something, or have the option from the very get go on if you want to see a tutorial or not. Your partner needs the most examining of all if they are going to stick with a Fi like character.

I think the main issue with Twilight Princess and Skyward Swords beginnings is that you have run ins with people you could not give less of a crap about. If you are going to do character introductions, make them interesting and on good characters that will have some real impact in the game (Midna, Zelda, etc.). Since its a Zelda game, most veterans will instantly weed out the trash i.e. the whole village in Twilight Princess, and a ton of locals in Skyloft. Since you also have to do stuff for these people (especially in Twilight Princess) you start to dislike the pacing a bit and feel its a waste of time helping folks that have no bearing on anything. As it is its already dumb to do padding for a game from the very beginning, even more so if it drags on the story as a whole until a certain point (Zelda being captured in SS, meeting with Midna in TP). Skyward Sword was in the right direction, but very little of it was actually interesting lead up story wise and only the last bits actually mattered.

I think the best way to pace it is to literally start you off in some boss fight+stage dream sequence (kind of like MM beginning before getting to Clock Town without the boss fight and a dream). Makes things interesting from the very get go, teaches you controls, and could be good for the story. You have to do as much as possible in that first hour as not to get people in a sour mood. Or you could do very little with no fluff like in ALTTP, but I don't think that would work as well in a 3D Zelda tbh.

#31 Posted by drummerdave9099 (630 posts) -