An Analysis: The gap between Wii U and PS4 is LARGER than 360/PS3 and Wii.

This topic is locked from further discussion.

#1 Posted by StrongDeadlift (5131 posts) -

Mods, please do not lock this thread.  This is a very specific discussion, too broad to be discussed within the sticky.  It deserves its own topic.  This is a detailed analysis of the gap between both platforms.  

 

 

The PS4 has 8gb of GDDR5 ram.  The Wii U 2gb of DDR3.

The Wii U however dedicates 1gb of its 2gb of ram to the OS, leaving only 1gb for games.   

Rumors (the same ones that leaked the PS4 specs) put the PS4's OS overhead between 512mb to 1.5gb.  Lets average that out to an even 1gb.    

Assuming that the PS4's OS overhead ends up being an even 1gb, that is 7gb of ram purely for games on the PS4 versus 1gb for the Wii U. 

 

HOWEVER......that isnt taking into account the MASSIVE bandwidth differences between the two systems (and this isnt hyperbole it really is massive as you'll see).  

The Wii U has a memory bandwidth of 12.8gb/s.  Forget the PS4.  That is HALF the memory bandwidth of the 360 and PS3. Yes, the PS3 and 360 :|

Wii U = 12.8gb/s (+ edram)

360 = 22.4gb/s (+ edram)

PS3 = 22.6gb/s

It does not even approach the PS4's 176gb/s.  That is nearly FOURTEEN times the memory bandwidth.  In comparison, the 360/ps3 had only FOUR times the bandwidth of the original Wii's 5.6gb/s.  This is not only a LARGER gap between the Wii U/PS4 than there was between the 360/PS3 and the Wii, but the gap itself is nearly FOUR times larger.   :|

table.png

PS4: 176 (GB/s)

 

PS4's GPU has 1154 compute cores compared to 320 cores in the Wii U (PS4 = 18 CU, 1 CU = 64 cores)

but when you factor in:

-almost 4 times the physical amount of cores

-roughly (14x) FOURTEEN TIMES the memory bandwidth

-7 times the ACTUAL physical memory (7gb for games, vs 1gb)

-the fact that those 1154 PS4 cores are likely GCN2 cores, while the Wii U's 320 are based on a core architecture from 2008, 

-cores are clocked faster (800mhz vs 550mhz) EDIT: Fixed.

-Oh, and the Wii U's CPU cores are the same architecture as the Wii, which was the same as the Gamecube.  Wii U is directly using the same CPU cores as the Wii and Gamecube, just using MORE of them and clocked higher.  This architecture was created in 1999 :|

 

 

One thing we can agree on is that this is a pretty big f*cking gap.  A larger gap between the two systems, than there was between the PS3/360 and the Wii.

And the only thing left to say is

f2a4f9e5_132353322733-mother-of-god-supe 

#2 Posted by Inconsistancy (8091 posts) -

think your sig is a more appropriate thing to say.

One thing though, where did you find out that it has 1154 shader processors at 850ghz, and bandwidth of 176GB/s? The PDF only says "GPU : 1.84 TFLOPS, AMD next-generation Radeon based graphics engine"

#3 Posted by OreoMilkshake (12718 posts) -

Analysis on how much I care.

:O

#4 Posted by Cranler (7845 posts) -

Analysis on how much I care.

:O

OreoMilkshake
If the wiiu wasnt so weak they could have added foliage to that game in your sig. Looks like a barren wasteland.
#5 Posted by megaspiderweb09 (3678 posts) -

Do Sheeps even exist ? :o

#6 Posted by StrongDeadlift (5131 posts) -

think your sig is a more appropriate thing to say.

One thing though, where did you find out that it has 1154 shader processors at 850ghz? The PDF only says "GPU : 1.84 TFLOPS, AMD next-generation Radeon based graphics engine"

Inconsistancy

The official press release (as well as pretty much all the rumors corroborated before hand) stated 18 compute units in the PS4.

1 compute unit = 64 compute cores.

The PS4 GPU is just two CU's shy of the Radeon 7970m's 20 compute units. (rumors also predicted this as well.  They stated that it was based off the 7970m, but with 2 fewer CUs, thus the 18 that are in the officiall specs)

 

Radeon 7970m is the card the PS4's GPU is based off of (which itself is a 7870).  The PS4 GPU is directly in between a 7850 and a 7870.

#7 Posted by StrongDeadlift (5131 posts) -

Analysis on how much I care.

:O

OreoMilkshake
*looks at sig*
#8 Posted by Master_ShakeXXX (13361 posts) -

Deadlift, you are such a bandwagoning douche bag. Now you love Sony all of a sudden? What a fake.

#9 Posted by Cranler (7845 posts) -

Deadlift, you are such a bandwagoning douche bag. Now you love Sony all of a sudden? What a fake.

Master_ShakeXXX
How do you know he's fake? Maybe he was impressed enough by the reveal to become a true fan.
#10 Posted by Neon_Noir (1503 posts) -
THE SHEEP HAVE BEEN KILLED
#11 Posted by Speedzilla (1756 posts) -

Deadlift, you are such a bandwagoning douche bag. Now you love Sony all of a sudden? What a fake.

Master_ShakeXXX

And this surprises you? He used to be one of the biggest cows.

#12 Posted by call_of_duty_10 (4954 posts) -

PS4

GokuSuperSaiyanIIINV.png

 

WiiU

800px-Yamcha_found_dead.jpg

#13 Posted by OreoMilkshake (12718 posts) -
[QUOTE="OreoMilkshake"]

Analysis on how much I care.

:O

StrongDeadlift
*looks at sig*

A game that I want to play. How funny.
#14 Posted by Inconsistancy (8091 posts) -

[QUOTE="Inconsistancy"]

think your sig is a more appropriate thing to say.

One thing though, where did you find out that it has 1154 shader processors at 850ghz? The PDF only says "GPU : 1.84 TFLOPS, AMD next-generation Radeon based graphics engine"

StrongDeadlift

The official press release (as well as pretty much all the rumors corroborated before hand) stated 18 compute units in the PS4.

1 compute unit = 64 compute cores.

The PS4 GPU is just two CU's shy of the Radeon 7970m's 20 compute units. (rumors also predicted this as well.  They stated that it was based off the 7970m, but with 2 fewer CUs, thus the 18 that are in the officiall specs)

 

Radeon 7970m is the card the PS4's GPU is based off of (which itself is a 7870).  The PS4 GPU is directly in between a 7850 and a 7870.

It's just that the math doesn't add up, the official PDF says 1.84tflops. 1154@850mhz = 1.96tflops, 1154@800mhz = 1.84*, 1024@900mhz = 1.84* (7850+40mhz)

(based off the apparent math used to calculate mflops on wiki, shader * 2 * core clock = mflops, which seems to be the standard everywhere)

#15 Posted by StrongDeadlift (5131 posts) -

[QUOTE="StrongDeadlift"]

[QUOTE="Inconsistancy"]

think your sig is a more appropriate thing to say.

One thing though, where did you find out that it has 1154 shader processors at 850ghz? The PDF only says "GPU : 1.84 TFLOPS, AMD next-generation Radeon based graphics engine"

Inconsistancy

The official press release (as well as pretty much all the rumors corroborated before hand) stated 18 compute units in the PS4.

1 compute unit = 64 compute cores.

The PS4 GPU is just two CU's shy of the Radeon 7970m's 20 compute units. (rumors also predicted this as well.  They stated that it was based off the 7970m, but with 2 fewer CUs, thus the 18 that are in the officiall specs)

 

Radeon 7970m is the card the PS4's GPU is based off of (which itself is a 7870).  The PS4 GPU is directly in between a 7850 and a 7870.

It's just that the math doesn't add up, the official PDF says 1.84tflops. 1154@850mhz = 1.96tflops, 1154@850mhz = 1.84*, 1024@900mhz = 1.84* (7850+40mhz)

(based off the apparent math used to calculate tflops on wiki, shader * 2 * core clock = mflops, which seems to be the standard everywhere)

I didnt get the 850mhz from an official source, but thats the number everyones been throwing around, and the card that its based on is clocked at that speed.  So I figured it was a given.  

Come to think of it, I think I remember that same rumor that (correctly) predicted the 18 CUs also said that it was clocked lower, so probably an even 800mhz.  This is speculation on my part though.  Im sure its somewhere in that area.  

 

EDIT: Just did the math.  

800mhz * 2 * 1154 = 1.84.  

It must be clocked at 800mhz.  

#16 Posted by DropsofJupiter (1424 posts) -
I'm not sure what's sadder, the fact that you went to the trouble to make this thread, or the fact that you are using the two systems' RAM to compare their power.
#17 Posted by SolidSnake35 (57956 posts) -
Crappiness hasn't held the 3DS back. Most people have bad taste so, Nintendo, fear not.
#18 Posted by DropsofJupiter (1424 posts) -
Crappiness hasn't held the 3DS back. Most people have bad taste so, Nintendo, fear not.SolidSnake35
Ah yes. 3DS, the system with the superior games, is somehow crappy. Brilliant. And of course, everyone has poor taste for liking the superior 3DS games. Never change, hardcore Sony fanboys. Never change.
#19 Posted by SolidSnake35 (57956 posts) -
[QUOTE="SolidSnake35"]Crappiness hasn't held the 3DS back. Most people have bad taste so, Nintendo, fear not.DropsofJupiter
Ah yes. 3DS, the system with the superior games, is somehow crappy. Brilliant. And of course, everyone has poor taste for liking the superior 3DS games. Never change, hardcore Sony fanboys. Never change.

What games? Mario Kart? Come on, we're not in the 90's anymore.
#20 Posted by no-scope-AK47 (2656 posts) -

lol

#21 Posted by DropsofJupiter (1424 posts) -
[QUOTE="DropsofJupiter"][QUOTE="SolidSnake35"]Crappiness hasn't held the 3DS back. Most people have bad taste so, Nintendo, fear not.SolidSnake35
Ah yes. 3DS, the system with the superior games, is somehow crappy. Brilliant. And of course, everyone has poor taste for liking the superior 3DS games. Never change, hardcore Sony fanboys. Never change.

What games? Mario Kart? Come on, we're not in the 90's anymore.

Fire Emblem: Awakening. Kid Icarus. Etrian Odyssey IV. Shin Megami Tensei: Soul Hackers. Monster Hunter 3 Ultimate. Unchained Blades. Kingdom Hearts: Dream Drop Distance. Dragon Quest VII. Castlevania Mirror of Fate. Crimson Shroud. Resident Evil Revelations. You're right, if I like those games, I very clearly have bad taste.
#22 Posted by Sushiglutton (5173 posts) -

YES the domination has won :cool: !!!

a

#23 Posted by OreoMilkshake (12718 posts) -

[QUOTE="SolidSnake35"][QUOTE="DropsofJupiter"] Ah yes. 3DS, the system with the superior games, is somehow crappy. Brilliant. And of course, everyone has poor taste for liking the superior 3DS games. Never change, hardcore Sony fanboys. Never change.DropsofJupiter
What games? Mario Kart? Come on, we're not in the 90's anymore.

Fire Emblem: Awakening. Kid Icarus. Etrian Odyssey IV. Shin Megami Tensei: Soul Hackers. Monster Hunter 3 Ultimate. Unchained Blades. Kingdom Hearts: Dream Drop Distance. Dragon Quest VII. Castlevania Mirror of Fate. Crimson Shroud. Resident Evil Revelations.

You're right, if I like those games, I very clearly have bad taste.

Get your ass out of the 90's and play real games like Black Ops Declassified. :evil:

#24 Posted by DropsofJupiter (1424 posts) -

[QUOTE="DropsofJupiter"][QUOTE="SolidSnake35"] What games? Mario Kart? Come on, we're not in the 90's anymore.OreoMilkshake

Fire Emblem: Awakening. Kid Icarus. Etrian Odyssey IV. Shin Megami Tensei: Soul Hackers. Monster Hunter 3 Ultimate. Unchained Blades. Kingdom Hearts: Dream Drop Distance. Dragon Quest VII. Castlevania Mirror of Fate. Crimson Shroud. Resident Evil Revelations.

You're right, if I like those games, I very clearly have bad taste.

Get your ass out of the 90's and play real games like Black Ops Declassified. :evil:

Don't forget about Resistance Burning Skies.
#25 Posted by Neon_Noir (1503 posts) -
A sheep circlejerk. A rare sight.
#26 Posted by Sagem28 (10498 posts) -

A sheep circlejerk. A rare sight. Neon_Noir

And here I was thinking they gone extinct.

#27 Posted by tubbyc (3650 posts) -

think your sig is a more appropriate thing to say.

One thing though, where did you find out that it has 1154 shader processors at 850ghz, and bandwidth of 176GB/s? The PDF only says "GPU : 1.84 TFLOPS, AMD next-generation Radeon based graphics engine"

Inconsistancy
Mark Cerny (lead system architect for PS4) mentioned the 176GB/s bandwidth during the press conference.
#28 Posted by silversix_ (13666 posts) -
'Wii U is directly using the same CPU cores as the Wii and Gamecube, just using MORE of them and clocked higher. This architecture was created in 1999' Is this true? If it is :lol: and they're asking 350$n for THIS!? Nintendo is a such a laughing stock these days i don't know what's going on
#29 Posted by StrongDeadlift (5131 posts) -
'Wii U is directly using the same CPU cores as the Wii and Gamecube, just using MORE of them and clocked higher. This architecture was created in 1999' Is this true? If it is :lol: and they're asking 350$n for THIS!? Nintendo is a such a laughing stock these days i don't know what's going onsilversix_
Well, it is also fabricated smaller, forgot to mention that :P
#30 Posted by nchan (1059 posts) -
[QUOTE="silversix_"]'Wii U is directly using the same CPU cores as the Wii and Gamecube, just using MORE of them and clocked higher. This architecture was created in 1999' Is this true? If it is :lol: and they're asking 350$n for THIS!? Nintendo is a such a laughing stock these days i don't know what's going onStrongDeadlift
Well, it is also fabricated smaller, forgot to mention that :P

Well, the CPU doesn't matter as much. Look at PS3, it has teh Cell, but many multi-plat games run with crappy framerate.
#31 Posted by GD1551 (9155 posts) -

[QUOTE="StrongDeadlift"][QUOTE="silversix_"]'Wii U is directly using the same CPU cores as the Wii and Gamecube, just using MORE of them and clocked higher. This architecture was created in 1999' Is this true? If it is :lol: and they're asking 350$n for THIS!? Nintendo is a such a laughing stock these days i don't know what's going onnchan
Well, it is also fabricated smaller, forgot to mention that :P

Well, the CPU doesn't matter as much. Look at PS3, it has teh Cell, but many multi-plat games run with crappy framerate.

That has nothing to do with the power or how modern the CPU is.

#32 Posted by Kaszilla (1718 posts) -
[QUOTE="DropsofJupiter"][QUOTE="SolidSnake35"]Crappiness hasn't held the 3DS back. Most people have bad taste so, Nintendo, fear not.SolidSnake35
Ah yes. 3DS, the system with the superior games, is somehow crappy. Brilliant. And of course, everyone has poor taste for liking the superior 3DS games. Never change, hardcore Sony fanboys. Never change.

What games? Mario Kart? Come on, we're not in the 90's anymore.

Sony must agree with him since they love ripping off their games.
#33 Posted by FlamesOfGrey (7450 posts) -

[QUOTE="SolidSnake35"][QUOTE="DropsofJupiter"] Ah yes. 3DS, the system with the superior games, is somehow crappy. Brilliant. And of course, everyone has poor taste for liking the superior 3DS games. Never change, hardcore Sony fanboys. Never change.DropsofJupiter
What games? Mario Kart? Come on, we're not in the 90's anymore.

Fire Emblem: Awakening. Kid Icarus. Etrian Odyssey IV. Shin Megami Tensei: Soul Hackers. Monster Hunter 3 Ultimate. Unchained Blades. Kingdom Hearts: Dream Drop Distance. Dragon Quest VII. Castlevania Mirror of Fate. Crimson Shroud. Resident Evil Revelations. You're right, if I like those games, I very clearly have bad taste.

Alot of ports and inferior console experiences on your list. The 3DS seems to have more in common with the Vita then I thought. :o

#34 Posted by ChubbyGuy40 (26066 posts) -

All that power and not a single game in sight.

Sony has a knack for disappointment.

#35 Posted by DeX2010 (3991 posts) -
I'm not sure what's sadder, the fact that you went to the trouble to make this thread, or the fact that you are using the two systems' RAM to compare their power.DropsofJupiter
Normally I wouldn't have thought RAM would be an issue, but with the PS4 having 7GB of free RAM not used for the OS and the WiiU only having 1GB; that is a pretty big limitation for developers in terms of complexity of objects on screen, etc, so in this case it is important for the comparison between systems because it effects the complexity of the games developers can release for the consoles.
#36 Posted by aroxx_ab (9151 posts) -

All that power and not a single game in sight.

Sony has a knack for disappointment.

ChubbyGuy40

Destiny and Watch Dogs looks pretty impressive to me :|

#37 Posted by ronvalencia (15109 posts) -

Mods, please do not lock this thread. This is a very specific discussion, too broad to be discussed within the sticky. It deserves its own topic. This is a detailed analysis of the gap between both platforms.

The PS4 has 8gb of GDDR5 ram. The Wii U 2gb of DDR3.

The Wii U however dedicates 1gb of its 2gb of ram to the OS, leaving only 1gb for games.

Rumors (the same ones that leaked the PS4 specs) put the PS4's OS overhead between 512mb to 1.5gb. Lets average that out to an even 1gb.

Assuming that the PS4's OS overhead ends up being an even 1gb, that is 7gb of ram purely for games on the PS4 versus 1gb for the Wii U.

HOWEVER......that isnt taking into account the MASSIVE bandwidth differences between the two systems (and this isnt hyperbole it really is massive as you'll see).

The Wii U has a memory bandwidth of 12.8gb/s. Forget the PS4. That is HALF the memory bandwidth of the 360 and PS3. Yes, the PS3 and 360 :|

Wii U = 12.8gb/s (+ edram)

360 = 22.4gb/s (+ edram)

PS3 = 22.6gb/s

It does not even approach the PS4's 176gb/s. That is nearly FOURTEEN times the memory bandwidth. In comparison, the 360/ps3 had only FOUR times the bandwidth of the original Wii's 5.6gb/s. This is not only a LARGER gap between the Wii U/PS4 than there was between the 360/PS3 and the Wii, but the gap itself is nearly FOUR times larger. :|

table.png

PS4: 176 (GB/s)

PS4's GPU has 1154 compute cores compared to 320 cores in the Wii U (PS4 = 18 CU, 1 CU = 64 cores)

but when you factor in:

-almost 4 times the physical amount of cores

-roughly (14x) FOURTEEN TIMES the memory bandwidth

-7 times the ACTUAL physical memory (7gb for games, vs 1gb)

-the fact that those 1154 PS4 cores are likely GCN2 cores, while the Wii U's 320 are based on a core architecture from 2008,

-cores are clocked faster (800mhz vs 550mhz) EDIT: Fixed.

-Oh, and the Wii U's CPU cores are the same architecture as the Wii, which was the same as the Gamecube. Wii U is directly using the same CPU cores as the Wii and Gamecube, just using MORE of them and clocked higher. This architecture was created in 1999 :|

One thing we can agree on is that this is a pretty big f*cking gap. A larger gap between the two systems, than there was between the PS3/360 and the Wii.

And the only thing left to say is

StrongDeadlift

GCN's 64 cores per CU doesn't include it's scalar unit. The purpose for scalar unit is to shield scalar workloads from vector/SIMD units. The GCN design is more efficient compared to the older VLIW type Radeon HD.

GCN's CU core count is actually, 65 cores per CU.

From http://techreport.com/review/24086/a-first-look-at-amd-radeon-hd-8790m

Radeon HD 8790M with 384 cores with GCN (6 CU) vs Radeon HD 7690M with 480 cores (6 CU, VLIW5). Wii U's GPU uses the older VLIW5 type Radeon HD.

bf3-fps.png

fc3-fps.png

On effective per CU performance, the gap will be larger than the basic core count vs core count.

#38 Posted by ronvalencia (15109 posts) -
[QUOTE="StrongDeadlift"]

[QUOTE="Inconsistancy"]

think your sig is a more appropriate thing to say.

One thing though, where did you find out that it has 1154 shader processors at 850ghz? The PDF only says "GPU : 1.84 TFLOPS, AMD next-generation Radeon based graphics engine"

The official press release (as well as pretty much all the rumors corroborated before hand) stated 18 compute units in the PS4.

1 compute unit = 64 compute cores.

The PS4 GPU is just two CU's shy of the Radeon 7970m's 20 compute units. (rumors also predicted this as well.  They stated that it was based off the 7970m, but with 2 fewer CUs, thus the 18 that are in the officiall specs)

 

Radeon 7970m is the card the PS4's GPU is based off of (which itself is a 7870).  The PS4 GPU is directly in between a 7850 and a 7870.

The two disabled CUs could use for yield issues.
#39 Posted by ronvalencia (15109 posts) -
[QUOTE="Inconsistancy"]

[QUOTE="StrongDeadlift"]

[QUOTE="Inconsistancy"]

think your sig is a more appropriate thing to say.

One thing though, where did you find out that it has 1154 shader processors at 850ghz? The PDF only says "GPU : 1.84 TFLOPS, AMD next-generation Radeon based graphics engine"

The official press release (as well as pretty much all the rumors corroborated before hand) stated 18 compute units in the PS4.

1 compute unit = 64 compute cores.

The PS4 GPU is just two CU's shy of the Radeon 7970m's 20 compute units. (rumors also predicted this as well.  They stated that it was based off the 7970m, but with 2 fewer CUs, thus the 18 that are in the officiall specs)

 

Radeon 7970m is the card the PS4's GPU is based off of (which itself is a 7870).  The PS4 GPU is directly in between a 7850 and a 7870.

It's just that the math doesn't add up, the official PDF says 1.84tflops. 1154@850mhz = 1.96tflops, 1154@800mhz = 1.84*, 1024@900mhz = 1.84* (7850+40mhz)

(based off the apparent math used to calculate mflops on wiki, shader * 2 * core clock = mflops, which seems to be the standard everywhere)

PS4 basically has Radeon HD 7860** level GCN with 8 GB GDDR5 memory. **7860 model would slot between 16 CU 7850 and 20 CU 7870 models.
#40 Posted by ronvalencia (15109 posts) -
[QUOTE="StrongDeadlift"][QUOTE="silversix_"]'Wii U is directly using the same CPU cores as the Wii and Gamecube, just using MORE of them and clocked higher. This architecture was created in 1999' Is this true? If it is :lol: and they're asking 350$n for THIS!? Nintendo is a such a laughing stock these days i don't know what's going onnchan
Well, it is also fabricated smaller, forgot to mention that :P

Well, the CPU doesn't matter as much. Look at PS3, it has teh Cell, but many multi-plat games run with crappy framerate.

AMD Jaguar CPU supports the recent Intel's 256bit AVX SIMD extensions.
#41 Posted by Malta_1980 (11126 posts) -

I think the general idea in here was that PS4 & Xbox720 would clearly have superior hardware compared to WiiU..

But I dont remember Nintendo claiming they will release a powerhouse of a console when announcing the WiiU..

#42 Posted by rjdofu (9167 posts) -
lol deadlift is back to kissing Sony's *ss again.
#43 Posted by KiZZo1 (3962 posts) -

Yeah, but all these parameters have diminishing returns.

Not having HD capability on Wii makes the gap to PS360 far worse.

#44 Posted by Michael0134567 (28651 posts) -

Lol no.

#45 Posted by freedomfreak (38295 posts) -
mehlicious
#46 Posted by tryagainlater (7445 posts) -

Analysis on how much I care.

:O

OreoMilkshake
This. I don't even know if I'm gonna buy a Wii U or a PS4 for that matter but who cares. If I want graphics, I'll become a PC gamer.
#47 Posted by ocidax (757 posts) -

Is the 360 an PS3 have more power than the Wii U. Why Most Wanted on Wii U looks better?

#48 Posted by Blake135 (3994 posts) -

PS4

GokuSuperSaiyanIIINV.png

 

WiiU

800px-Yamcha_found_dead.jpg

call_of_duty_10

Oh Come on WiiU Aint Yamcha no Console deserves that title Yamcha is ****:P WiiU can be..Krillian.

#49 Posted by Bigboi500 (28804 posts) -

It's much smaller, actually.

#50 Posted by ocidax (757 posts) -

People forget that the average people (Aka casuals) can't notice the difference between 720p and 1080p. So we are less than 5%. And remember what nintendo do with the Wii weak hardware (SMG series, Prime 3 and some other good looking games). Now that they have some power, is better to wait. Everybody here knows that the PS4 and the next Xbox are more powerfull, Thats clear, But we cant forget that Nintendo have some of the most talent first party devs, And Nintendo knows how to use their hardware to the max. I going to buy all 3 consoles. Next gen looks good for gamers :). I cant wait to see the next Gran turismo, Uncharted, Metroid, Zelda and Forza.