AMD's Mantle 45% faster than DirectX at CryEngine

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#1 Posted by IgGy621985 (4798 posts) -

I have no idea why there are no news about this on English tech sites, but anyway...

Here's the link to the site, but you won't understand much since it's on Croatian.

It basically says AMD is partnering with Crytek who will implement Mantle into CryEngine to offer up to 45% better performance than DirectX.

There are also three new devs who joined AMD's Gaming Evolved program, Rebellion Developments, Square Enix and Xaviant, and among the games which will use Mantle are Sniper Elite III (Rebellion) and Murdered: Soul Suspect (Square), while the adventure Lichdom (Xaviant) will offer support for TressFX hair and AMD TrueAudio tech.

Shots fired?

What do you think?

#2 Edited by Truth_Hurts_U (9246 posts) -

Nvidia Maxwell will have a dual core CPU in the GPU. So mantle's advantage with CPU limited games wont last long. DX 12 is said to add mantle like support. Which is another blow to AMD.

It's a good thing AMD got the console contracts or they might of ended up being dead in the PC space.

#3 Posted by Couth_ (10126 posts) -

In order to take advantage of Mantle, doesn't the developer have to code specifically for each GPU? It's not worth it. For BF4, DICE only optimized the 290x. The rest of the GPU's don't even perform better.. SO FAR mantle isn't worth it

#4 Posted by HaloinventedFPS (4727 posts) -

@Truth_Hurts_U said:

Nvidia Maxwell will have a dual core CPU in the GPU. So mantle's advantage with CPU limited games wont last long. DX 12 is said to add mantle like support. Which is another blow to AMD.

It's a good thing AMD got the console contracts or they might of ended up being dead in the PC space.

It's because of Mantle that Microsoft are making DX12, AMD made Mantle because Microsoft said they were finished with DirectX

#5 Edited by IgGy621985 (4798 posts) -

@Truth_Hurts_U said:

It's a good thing AMD got the console contracts or they might of ended up being dead in the PC space.

There are rumors Intel is actually financing AMD, so Intel wouldn't get in trouble for CPU monopoly.

#6 Posted by TheTruthIsREAL (761 posts) -

@HaloinventedFPS: lol Microsoft flinch at the sight of competition because AMD's first API smokes their latest out the water

#7 Posted by FoxbatAlpha (7131 posts) -

Mantle has DC now? Plus this DirectX they speak of isn't 12.

#8 Posted by CrownKingArthur (4790 posts) -

good

#9 Edited by Masculus (2858 posts) -

It's good that they are supporting. Would be nice if they were to update Crysis 3 with it, it's quite a CPU hungry game, could benefit a lot from it.

#10 Posted by IgGy621985 (4798 posts) -

@FoxbatAlpha said:

Mantle has DC now? Plus this DirectX they speak of isn't 12.

Well of course they don't speak about DX12 since there are no DX12 games at the moment, and current DX11 games most probably won't be ported to DX12.

#11 Posted by leandrro (868 posts) -

@Couth_ said:

In order to take advantage of Mantle, doesn't the developer have to code specifically for each GPU? It's not worth it. For BF4, DICE only optimized the 290x. The rest of the GPU's don't even perform better.. SO FAR mantle isn't worth it

mantle boosts any AMD GPU but there are still bugs with most of them, for example mine 7870 has memory leaks

#12 Posted by cfisher2833 (1692 posts) -

Maybe if you're running a shitty APU with an R9 290x; in the real world though, where people don't pair super high end GPUs with shitty as can be CPUs, I doubt you'll see anywhere near a 45% increase in framerates.

#13 Posted by leandrro (868 posts) -

@Truth_Hurts_U said:

Nvidia Maxwell will have a dual core CPU in the GPU. So mantle's advantage with CPU limited games wont last long. DX 12 is said to add mantle like support. Which is another blow to AMD.

It's a good thing AMD got the console contracts or they might of ended up being dead in the PC space.

aint those shitty arm cores that count for almost nothing? like 10% of a single intel core?

mantle is already a reality, dx12 mantle like performance is just a distant dream

i like to bet in the company making the progress, not the ones running behind it

#14 Edited by 04dcarraher (19589 posts) -

People need to understand what mantle actually does. AMD ~45% claims with Mantle in general is pure PR usually based from in house tests using APUs. What mantle does is lower the cpu's workload communicating and sending the gpu data, in essence freeing up cpu cycles to be put to use to other jobs that need to be processed speeding up things in general. Mantle shows its advantages when the system is cpu bound and sees most gains from AMD's cpu's vs Intel based cpu's.

Because AMD cpu's are not as fast as intel cpu's being able to keep up with the load, which means Intel cpu's in general even with Direct x 11 still is able to provide equal to better performance then pure AMD systems and only see slight gains even with mantle intel/AMD gpu's since they provide the brute processing power to begin with.

#15 Posted by Couth_ (10126 posts) -
@04dcarraher said:

People need to understand what mantle actually does. AMD ~45% claims with Mantle in general is pure PR usually based from in house tests using APUs. What mantle does is lower the cpu's workload communicating and sending the gpu, in essence freeing up cpu cycles to be put to use to other jobs that need to be processed speeding up things in general. Mantle shows its advantages when the system is cpu bound and sees most gains from AMD's cpu's vs Intel based cpu's.

Because AMD cpu's are not as fast as intel cpu's being able to keep up with the load, which means Intel cpu's in general even with Direct x 11 still is able to provide equal to better performance then pure AMD systems and only see slight gains even with mantle intel/AMD gpu's since they provide the brute processing power to begin with.

It's coding to the metal yo

I'll still take an Intel+nVidia combo over this. 880 ftw... Especially with the huge hike in AMD GPU prices

#16 Posted by blackace (20747 posts) -

@FoxbatAlpha said:

Mantle has DC now? Plus this DirectX they speak of isn't 12.

Well, I know that, and you know that, but..... lol!!

AMD is working with Microsoft and they are well aware of DX12. lol!!

#18 Edited by wis3boi (31382 posts) -

i wanna see mantle ported to arma/total war

#19 Posted by edwardecl (2239 posts) -

I wish Nvidia would use Mantle as well... DirectX needs to be put down. The only thing holding back Linux gaming is DirectX.

#20 Posted by clyde46 (46289 posts) -

@edwardecl said:

I wish Nvidia would use Mantle as well... DirectX needs to be put down. The only thing holding back Linux gaming is DirectX.

LOL Linux gaming.

#21 Edited by 04dcarraher (19589 posts) -

@wis3boi said:

i wanna see mantle ported to arma/total war

lol not going to help , they would actually have to make use of more then one core/thread. Thats the problem with those games since almost all work is done one thread and Mantle relies on multithreaded basis to maximize the gpu communications across all threads. You dont need mantle to do the job, they need to get their head out of the 90's and make use of multiple threads and cores.

#22 Posted by AdamPA1006 (6420 posts) -

@wis3boi said:

i wanna see mantle ported to arma/total war

Yeah total war games need is desperately, including a whole new engine. Warscape is bad

#23 Edited by 04dcarraher (19589 posts) -

@edwardecl said:

I wish Nvidia would use Mantle as well... DirectX needs to be put down. The only thing holding back Linux gaming is DirectX.

Why would Nvidia use Mantle? as of right now its AMD ballgame and their notable gains are with their processors not seeing much if any at all with intel based cpu's. also if MS cuts down direct x's load as they did with mantle you will see Mantle disappear pretty quickly because many developers dont want to use propitiatory coding and requirements and then having to cater to direct x in the end to reach as many as they can. If direct x 12 delivers similar gains as mantle does in general AMD's hype train will be short lived. Also should note as soon as AMD moves away from GCN core all games made around current gpu's Mantle will be useless with new gpu architecture having to depend on AMD and game developer to patch and fix them will be long shot.

Linux is not being held back by Direct x its the fact that direct x is easier to use then Opengl.

#24 Posted by wis3boi (31382 posts) -

@04dcarraher said:

@wis3boi said:

i wanna see mantle ported to arma/total war

lol not going to help , they would actually have to make use of more then one core/thread. Thats the problem with those games since almost all work is done one thread and Mantle relies on multithreaded basis to maximize the gpu communications across all threads. You dont need mantle to do the job, they need to get their head out of the 90's and make use of multiple threads and cores.

it works if you use -cpuCount=6 -high in the shortcut (for 6 cores, in my case), but its still not perfect

#25 Posted by True_Gamer_ (6169 posts) -

@AdamPA1006 said:

@wis3boi said:

i wanna see mantle ported to arma/total war

Yeah total war games need is desperately, including a whole new engine. Warscape is bad

Thats why the best total war game is yet to be released:

This is just the tip of the tip of the tip of the tip of the tip of the tip of the tip of the tip of the tip of the iceberg....

#26 Edited by AdamPA1006 (6420 posts) -

@True_Gamer_ said:

@AdamPA1006 said:

@wis3boi said:

i wanna see mantle ported to arma/total war

Yeah total war games need is desperately, including a whole new engine. Warscape is bad

Thats why the best total war game is yet to be released:

This is just the tip of the tip of the tip of the tip of the tip of the tip of the tip of the tip of the tip of the iceberg....

I played the first Barbarum and definitely liked it, when is the sequal coming out? RTW2 is one of the biggest flops ever for me, I cant even think about the money I wasted by preordering it.

#27 Posted by True_Gamer_ (6169 posts) -

@AdamPA1006 said:

@True_Gamer_ said:

@AdamPA1006 said:

@wis3boi said:

i wanna see mantle ported to arma/total war

Yeah total war games need is desperately, including a whole new engine. Warscape is bad

Thats why the best total war game is yet to be released:

This is just the tip of the tip of the tip of the tip of the tip of the tip of the tip of the tip of the tip of the iceberg....

I played the first Barbarum and definitely liked it, when is the sequal coming out? RTW2 is one of the biggest flops ever for me, I cant even think about the money I wasted by preordering it.

Summer time its coming out....

Will have deph deeper than hell itself. God its a Counter Strike to Creative Assembly's Half Life (Medieval 2)....

Rome 2 was expected to be bad. You cannot make a melee game based on a gun engine (Empire Napoleon Shogun 2)

#28 Posted by Wasdie (49915 posts) -

Mantle's advantages are still too limiting. To get that 45% the game has to be optimized for the individual graphic card. That's the exact reason why we have OpenGL and DirectX.

To my knowledge so far only Battlefield 4 uses Mantle and it only is optimized for the R290x. That's not really a win.

It has a lot of potential, but unless I see some evidence that Mantle improves framerates on all supported hardware, I'm going to stay skeptical.

DX and OpenGL are implementing more broad changes that allow programs to have some direct hardware access which are going to drastically reduce CPU overhead and increase performance.

#29 Posted by glez13 (8828 posts) -

@Wasdie said:

Mantle's advantages are still too limiting. To get that 45% the game has to be optimized for the individual graphic card. That's the exact reason why we have OpenGL and DirectX.

To my knowledge so far only Battlefield 4 uses Mantle and it only is optimized for the R290x. That's not really a win.

It has a lot of potential, but unless I see some evidence that Mantle improves framerates on all supported hardware, I'm going to stay skeptical.

DX and OpenGL are implementing more broad changes that allow programs to have some direct hardware access which are going to drastically reduce CPU overhead and increase performance.

Almost the same happened with Thief, only that the R290 also joins the optimization and the R280x just hardly.

#30 Edited by wis3boi (31382 posts) -

@Wasdie said:

Mantle's advantages are still too limiting. To get that 45% the game has to be optimized for the individual graphic card. That's the exact reason why we have OpenGL and DirectX.

To my knowledge so far only Battlefield 4 uses Mantle and it only is optimized for the R290x. That's not really a win.

It has a lot of potential, but unless I see some evidence that Mantle improves framerates on all supported hardware, I'm going to stay skeptical.

DX and OpenGL are implementing more broad changes that allow programs to have some direct hardware access which are going to drastically reduce CPU overhead and increase performance.

doubled my framerate in BF4 on a 7970, I'd call that a win

#31 Edited by ronvalencia (15112 posts) -

@Truth_Hurts_U said:

Nvidia Maxwell will have a dual core CPU in the GPU. So mantle's advantage with CPU limited games wont last long. DX 12 is said to add mantle like support. Which is another blow to AMD.

It's a good thing AMD got the console contracts or they might of ended up being dead in the PC space.

AMD GCN has a scalar processor built into the each CU and GCNs are aligned for x86-64 memory operations i.e. cache lines and memory page size. GCN's scalar processor has it's own L1 cache and register storage.

ARM CPU can NOT run X86 compiled runtime libraries i.e. DirectX X86 build in every Windows X86. The overhead occurs at DirectX X86 build object.

#32 Edited by lhughey (4235 posts) -

@wis3boi said:

@Wasdie said:

Mantle's advantages are still too limiting. To get that 45% the game has to be optimized for the individual graphic card. That's the exact reason why we have OpenGL and DirectX.

To my knowledge so far only Battlefield 4 uses Mantle and it only is optimized for the R290x. That's not really a win.

It has a lot of potential, but unless I see some evidence that Mantle improves framerates on all supported hardware, I'm going to stay skeptical.

DX and OpenGL are implementing more broad changes that allow programs to have some direct hardware access which are going to drastically reduce CPU overhead and increase performance.

doubled my framerate in BF4 on a 7970, I'd call that a win

A 200% increase is hard to believe. Not that your lying, I'm just thinking something else was going on with previous drivers. Otherwise AMD would be quick to point out that Mantle offers up to 200% better frame rates.

What CPU do you have? I know Mantle improves systems with slower CPUs the most.

#33 Posted by lostrib (36976 posts) -

Ah yes, keyword being "up to"

#34 Posted by FastRobby (1797 posts) -

First of all the article you posted was from 19/03/2014, DirectX12 was presented 20/03/2014...

Second, DirectX12 isn't even out yet, AMD Mantle is, so please tell me how they came to these numbers.

#35 Edited by NFJSupreme (5377 posts) -

I have a 7950 and I get performance hits when I use mantle in bf4. Runs much better with direct x. So I'm waiting till they properly implement it till I get excited

#36 Posted by Truth_Hurts_U (9246 posts) -

AMD... Good bye... Calling it now.

http://wccftech.com/nvidias-directx-11-driver-better-mantle-api-benchmark/

It might take a few years, since console chip sales will keep them going.

#37 Posted by lostrib (36976 posts) -
@FastRobby said:

First of all the article you posted was from 19/03/2014, DirectX12 was presented 20/03/2014...

Second, DirectX12 isn't even out yet, AMD Mantle is, so please tell me how they came to these numbers.

They didn't compare it to DX12

#38 Posted by FastRobby (1797 posts) -

@lostrib said:
@FastRobby said:

First of all the article you posted was from 19/03/2014, DirectX12 was presented 20/03/2014...

Second, DirectX12 isn't even out yet, AMD Mantle is, so please tell me how they came to these numbers.

They didn't compare it to DX12

Then why do we even care... We now Mantle has better performance compared with DX11... This topic is useless.

#39 Posted by lostrib (36976 posts) -

@FastRobby said:

@lostrib said:
@FastRobby said:

First of all the article you posted was from 19/03/2014, DirectX12 was presented 20/03/2014...

Second, DirectX12 isn't even out yet, AMD Mantle is, so please tell me how they came to these numbers.

They didn't compare it to DX12

Then why do we even care... We now Mantle has better performance compared with DX11... This topic is useless.

because crytek. And DX12 is not here while mantle is

#40 Posted by lostrib (36976 posts) -

@Truth_Hurts_U said:

AMD... Good bye... Calling it now.

http://wccftech.com/nvidias-directx-11-driver-better-mantle-api-benchmark/

It might take a few years, since console chip sales will keep them going.

It would be a bad thing for AMD to go out of business

#41 Posted by Truth_Hurts_U (9246 posts) -

@lostrib:

I'm all for them sticking around... But they just can't compete any more. They are trying, but it just isn't good enough.

#42 Edited by lostrib (36976 posts) -

@Truth_Hurts_U said:

@lostrib:

I'm all for them sticking around... But they just can't compete any more. They are trying, but it just isn't good enough.

GPUs I think they're okay, they need to do something about their CPUs

#43 Edited by StormyJoe (5383 posts) -

@IgGy621985: Which version of DIrectX? Here's why I ask.

#44 Posted by wis3boi (31382 posts) -

@lhughey said:

@wis3boi said:

@Wasdie said:

Mantle's advantages are still too limiting. To get that 45% the game has to be optimized for the individual graphic card. That's the exact reason why we have OpenGL and DirectX.

To my knowledge so far only Battlefield 4 uses Mantle and it only is optimized for the R290x. That's not really a win.

It has a lot of potential, but unless I see some evidence that Mantle improves framerates on all supported hardware, I'm going to stay skeptical.

DX and OpenGL are implementing more broad changes that allow programs to have some direct hardware access which are going to drastically reduce CPU overhead and increase performance.

doubled my framerate in BF4 on a 7970, I'd call that a win

A 200% increase is hard to believe. Not that your lying, I'm just thinking something else was going on with previous drivers. Otherwise AMD would be quick to point out that Mantle offers up to 200% better frame rates.

What CPU do you have? I know Mantle improves systems with slower CPUs the most.

X6 1100T, OC'd it to 4ghz. Usually hovered around 40-50 on ultra, now it's not uncommon I hover around 80-100

#45 Posted by lostrib (36976 posts) -

@wis3boi said:

@lhughey said:

@wis3boi said:

@Wasdie said:

Mantle's advantages are still too limiting. To get that 45% the game has to be optimized for the individual graphic card. That's the exact reason why we have OpenGL and DirectX.

To my knowledge so far only Battlefield 4 uses Mantle and it only is optimized for the R290x. That's not really a win.

It has a lot of potential, but unless I see some evidence that Mantle improves framerates on all supported hardware, I'm going to stay skeptical.

DX and OpenGL are implementing more broad changes that allow programs to have some direct hardware access which are going to drastically reduce CPU overhead and increase performance.

doubled my framerate in BF4 on a 7970, I'd call that a win

A 200% increase is hard to believe. Not that your lying, I'm just thinking something else was going on with previous drivers. Otherwise AMD would be quick to point out that Mantle offers up to 200% better frame rates.

What CPU do you have? I know Mantle improves systems with slower CPUs the most.

X6 1100T, OC'd it to 4ghz. Usually hovered around 40-50 on ultra, now it's not uncommon I hover around 80-100

To be fair, BF4 performance increased quite a bit in general since launch.

#46 Posted by wis3boi (31382 posts) -

@lostrib said:

@wis3boi said:

@lhughey said:

@wis3boi said:

@Wasdie said:

Mantle's advantages are still too limiting. To get that 45% the game has to be optimized for the individual graphic card. That's the exact reason why we have OpenGL and DirectX.

To my knowledge so far only Battlefield 4 uses Mantle and it only is optimized for the R290x. That's not really a win.

It has a lot of potential, but unless I see some evidence that Mantle improves framerates on all supported hardware, I'm going to stay skeptical.

DX and OpenGL are implementing more broad changes that allow programs to have some direct hardware access which are going to drastically reduce CPU overhead and increase performance.

doubled my framerate in BF4 on a 7970, I'd call that a win

A 200% increase is hard to believe. Not that your lying, I'm just thinking something else was going on with previous drivers. Otherwise AMD would be quick to point out that Mantle offers up to 200% better frame rates.

What CPU do you have? I know Mantle improves systems with slower CPUs the most.

X6 1100T, OC'd it to 4ghz. Usually hovered around 40-50 on ultra, now it's not uncommon I hover around 80-100

To be fair, BF4 performance increased quite a bit in general since launch.

If I flip between DX11/Mantle, that's my fps difference

#47 Edited by IgGy621985 (4798 posts) -
@StormyJoe said:

@IgGy621985: Which version of DIrectX? Here's why I ask.

Well, DX11 obviously since they couldn't compare it to DX12. This was announced before the official DX12 announcement. And regarding that article, well, yeah, it's a possibility.

#48 Edited by lunar1122 (667 posts) -

i wouldnt get my hopes up on dx 12. For one you going to be forced to get windows 8 or something higher. Secondly saying it will be on par with mantel is wishful at best. No dx can be as low level as mantel is, that removes the whole point of Direct X.. You have be skeptical of such nonsense claims.

With that said, Mantel has also been a disappointment.. Like i said, the myth of console gaming optimization was exposed.. Its the same situation with mantel.. You only get to see benefits if your cpu is trash. For most of us running on i5's and i7's our cpu's are powerful enough that mantel provides literally no benefit.

#49 Edited by IgGy621985 (4798 posts) -

@lunar1122 said:

i wouldnt get my hopes up on dx 12. For one you going to be forced to get windows 8 or something higher. Secondly saying it will be on par with mantel is wishful at best. No dx can be as low level as mantel is.. You have be skeptical of such nonsense claims.

With that said, Mantel has also been a disappointment.. Like i said, the myth of console gaming was exposed.. The same with mantel.. You only get to see benefits if your cpu is trash. For most of us running on i5's and i7's our cpu's are so powerful that mantel provides literally no benefit.

I think mantle will show its true benefits with gaming PCs which only have APU.

#50 Posted by adamosmaki (9620 posts) -

I cant get people complaining about this even if they have a mid-high end Cpu you still get a 5-10% performance increase and AMD also said mantle is open source unlike many proprietary Nvidia technologies ( Cuda anyone )