2K and the Fate of the BioShock IP.

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#1 Edited by misterpmedia (6132 posts) -

So just finished BaSp2 and feel like BioShock will go down as one of my all time favourite franchises in gaming. I'm not sure why but everything about the games, despite some hiccups in Infinite, just resonated well with me, even down to small specifics like the old time music of the period etc. Even to go so far as to say I'm actually ever so slightly depressed that it has technically ended, for Ken Levine anyway.

Now before Infinite was ever truly realised, the teasing for many years of gameplay & cinematics, I had come to a conclusion that BioShock 1 & Infinite weren't actually going to be related at all. So what that told me is that a BioShock game bases itself around a 'What if?' type city, the whole reality with a dash of fantasy & impossibility(Rapture and Columbia) sorta look. This kinda got confirmed with the whole 'there will always be a city, a man, & a light house" line that was eventually uttered. Therefore there could be infinite variables of the how same city turned out.

So despite the full circled plot that totally destroys the mystery of what the franchise was(kinda a good thing...and a bad thing for me personally), it does give a formula to what a BioShock game should include if any developer like 2K decides to carry on the franchise(which they said they will, plus it sells well). We've already seen side plots like BioShock 2 and Minerva's Den that show there can be other stories told, but would you still want them to be in Rapture, specifically?

Ignoring the lighthouse part all a new BioShock game would need is an interesting yet chilling tale of an individual and an interesting locale consisting of a city where a city shouldn't be. Of course the subject of a dysptopia forming from a Utopia needs to be addressed also.

So couple of questions...

Should 2K use this formula for who ever takes up the mantle for the next game(assuming there will be one)?

Will there ever be a city location idea that truly bests Rapture in atmosphere and what locations would be a perfect fit for a BioShock game?

What subgenre should be accented(For example BioShock 1 can be seen to have a lot of survival horror elements, where as Infinite was more actiony)?

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#2 Edited by Blabadon (32740 posts) -

I'm playing BioShock Infinite and deciding whether to use a cast iron or drill to kill myself while playing it.

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#3 Edited by mexicangordo (8687 posts) -

Call me crazy but I honestly feel like the Bioshock franchise is slightly overrated. The series reminds me of the cup cake craze back a few years ago. Where people made these amazing, delicious looking cupcakes with interesting flavors and all these bells and whistles. However, they tasted bland and at the end of the day...they were just cupcakes.

Same with the Bioshock franchise imo. I greatly appreciate all the hard work and detail they put into these games, which is where most of the praise is deserved. But at the end of the day, the gameplay is so flat and not structured. One who isn't blown away by all the bells and whistles would get over it very quickly. I think the sales of the series reflect that imo.

As for the future of the franchise. I would not be surprised if they kept that Art Deco meets Steam Punk style but re-booted the rest of the franchise. Maybe even making it less violent but grittier-like in some sort of Noir/Medieval setting.

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#4 Posted by Nengo_Flow (10644 posts) -

Let Bioshock die off.

Not every franchise needs to continue on senselessly for ever, Bioshock is done and we should be happy about it.

There is no need for more of it, and wouldnt you want them talented people to create something new and fresh?

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#5 Posted by TheEroica (16573 posts) -

@Blabadon: that bad? It's not my favorite game, but I enjoyed the pacing.

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#6 Posted by MlauTheDaft (5189 posts) -

Considering you hear Songbird's deathcry in BS1, I'd say the entire franchise was rather well thought out.

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#7 Posted by Solarplex (64 posts) -

Bioshock is a great game. Enough Said. Its over, all good things come to an end.

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#8 Posted by FoxbatAlpha (10669 posts) -

I played BS1 but never could really get into the whole setting. Tossed it aside and moved on.

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#9 Edited by PyratRum (743 posts) -

@Blabadon said:

I'm playing BioShock Infinite and deciding whether to use a cast iron or drill to kill myself while playing it.

Why do you suck at life so much?

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#10 Posted by foxhound_fox (95446 posts) -

Honestly I never was that impressed with the series. BioShock was a massive disappointment, and BioShock 2, while better than the first game, wasn't that great.

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#11 Posted by Blabadon (32740 posts) -

@TheEroica: Columbia feels like window dressing half the time for this extremely unresponsive and non-dynamic world. It creates scenes for a few decent gunfights and a few interesting plot points and then really fails to do anything else. The political infusions all around are neat but feel superficial and a bit parodic of any message actually trying to be conveyed.

Combat's alright. Sometimes it gets the power fantasy of being able to shoot fucking fireballs out of your hand right, most otherwise it's the same machine gun and aim-down-the-sights combo we're used to without the excitement and some truly awful AI.

Not to mention how much of this game feels like straight filler. I don't appreciate that, no matter how much pretty Columbia contains.

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#13 Edited by Salt_The_Fries (12477 posts) -

BioShock 1 and 2 will remain in my life for a long time. I have recently bought BS1 for my X360 as I have never played this part on it - I've finished it on PC in 2007. However, I've finished BS2 and Infinite on the console. I consider rebuying BS2 as well, it's for 5 bucks till Tuesday

Infinite, on the other hand, was the single biggest disappointment of the whole last gen for me...7/10 at best. Nice change of the story perspective, but gameplay and superficial changes to the game structure and balance...which only backfired and made magic powers very boring and SAMEY...yuck...

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#14 Posted by misterpmedia (6132 posts) -

@mexicangordo said:

Call me crazy but I honestly feel like the Bioshock franchise is slightly overrated. The series reminds me of the cup cake craze back a few years ago. Where people made these amazing, delicious looking cupcakes with interesting flavors and all these bells and whistles. However, they tasted bland and at the end of the day...they were just cupcakes.

Same with the Bioshock franchise imo. I greatly appreciate all the hard work and detail they put into these games, which is where most of the praise is deserved. But at the end of the day, the gameplay is so flat and not structured. One who isn't blown away by all the bells and whistles would get over it very quickly. I think the sales of the series reflect that imo.

As for the future of the franchise. I would not be surprised if they kept that Art Deco meets Steam Punk style but re-booted the rest of the franchise. Maybe even making it less violent but grittier-like in some sort of Noir/Medieval setting.

I think the sequels dampened the variety a bit because, I guess witnessing BioShock 1, it was my introduction into the 'smart shooter' subgenre. The whole plasmids and gunplay was kinda cool but was more woven into the story in one, mainly because it was new and fresh. Not so much in Infinite, seemed like an entirely different ball game.

That would be kinda cool. For some...very strange reason...I love the whole 1950s era of it all, I don't know why I've never been able to put my finger on it, the crackling of the audio logs, the art direction, just all this old school stuff plonked straight into the middle of all this weird wizardry that it wouldn't have naturally seen. I guess I put it down to loving games that recreate visions of the past as we know it. There was also that weird carnival-esc theme that ran in parallel too like with the shops and upgrade stations. It seems all BioShock games make it so it's all smiles and hugs on the surface but there's a deeper evil lurking beneath, hence the Utopia falling into a distopia effect.

@Nengo_Flow said:

Let Bioshock die off.

Not every franchise needs to continue on senselessly for ever, Bioshock is done and we should be happy about it.

There is no need for more of it, and wouldnt you want them talented people to create something new and fresh?

It's just one of those catch 22s. I kinda feel as if the original vision for Infinite with those gameplay reveals and such had to be epically dumbed down because of the console hardware(their main market) and as time went on the console generation was sorta drawing to a close and the hardware getting more and more outdatted limiting what could actually be done. So even though I feel what I've played has satisfied me in giving me some sort of closure for the franchise I can't help but want another one for the new hardware. That way of thinking for me goes for a number of games to be honest. It's just a shame that's how it's turned out.

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#15 Posted by Salt_The_Fries (12477 posts) -

I remember how the original BioShock was frowned upon hardcore PC gamers for being "dumbed down" and whatnot whereas over the course of last-gen it has proved to be one of the "deeper" games, still...The second group of people for some insane reason hated what they called "backtracking"...yet in Infinite the backtracking was greatly reduced yet it was a lousy game compared to the first two...What gives?

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#16 Posted by misterpmedia (6132 posts) -

@Salt_The_Fries said:

I remember how the original BioShock was frowned upon hardcore PC gamers for being "dumbed down" and whatnot whereas over the course of last-gen it has proved to be one of the "deeper" games, still...The second group of people for some insane reason hated what they called "backtracking"...yet in Infinite the backtracking was greatly reduced yet it was a lousy game compared to the first two...What gives?

Well the PC folk had just witnessed SystemShock 2 so I could see their point of view.

@Salt_The_Fries said:

BioShock 1 and 2 will remain in my life for a long time. I have recently bought BS1 for my X360 as I have never played this part on it - I've finished it on PC in 2007. However, I've finished BS2 and Infinite on the console. I consider rebuying BS2 as well, it's for 5 bucks till Tuesday

Infinite, on the other hand, was the single biggest disappointment of the whole last gen for me...7/10 at best. Nice change of the story perspective, but gameplay and superficial changes to the game structure and balance...which only backfired and made magic powers very boring and SAMEY...yuck...

urgh same. As for Infinite being a disappointment, it's just one of those games that you wished hadn't have gone through development hell and wasn't constraint by hardware to achieve their original vision. I liked it for what it was because as a fan of the franchise I respect it to a certain degree even if I disliked parts of it. If they make another bioshock game for next gen despite what people think about how it ended I know I'll end up buying it lol.

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#17 Posted by misterpmedia (6132 posts) -

@MlauTheDaft said:

Considering you hear Songbird's deathcry in BS1, I'd say the entire franchise was rather well thought out.

oh woa, when?

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#18 Posted by hrt_rulz01 (11540 posts) -

As a huge Bioshock fan, I honestly think they shouldn't make anymore... I don't want more games for the sake of it and ruin the legacy of the other games.

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#19 Posted by CrownKingArthur (5262 posts) -

no more bioshock please.

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#20 Posted by Basinboy (12366 posts) -

Love Bioshock. Perhaps Ken Levine is moving to fulfilling his promise of a Vita game. Better than othing?

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#21 Posted by Ballroompirate (25456 posts) -

Bioshock was amazing

Bioshock 2, never played it so I can't comment on it

Bioshock Infinte was disappointing compared to what we were shown.

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#22 Posted by Salt_The_Fries (12477 posts) -

@Ballroompirate said:

Bioshock was amazing

Bioshock 2, never played it so I can't comment on it

Bioshock Infinte was disappointing compared to what we were shown.

Gameplay-wise BioShock 2 might be even better than the first one, and they gave you a better illusion of choice there. If you have 360, you can get it within 24 hours for mere 5 bucks. It's an amazing sequel which addressed a lot of flaws of the original.

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#23 Posted by longtonguecat (2545 posts) -

SS1=SS2 > BioShock > Infinite > BioShock 2>majority of games in the genre

(Relative to their time of release of course)

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#24 Posted by misterpmedia (6132 posts) -

@Basinboy said:

Love Bioshock. Perhaps Ken Levine is moving to fulfilling his promise of a Vita game. Better than othing?

lol I doubt it haha

@Ballroompirate said:

Bioshock was amazing

Bioshock 2, never played it so I can't comment on it

Bioshock Infinte was disappointing compared to what we were shown.

BioShock 2 gets a lot of flack because it doesn't have the amazing plot like in the first one. But what it does do is smooth out a lot of the kinks in the first game, like you're able to duel wield plasmid and weapon(seeing as you're a big daddy now) which feels really good lol and the hacking got smoothed out into a better mini game than the lil tubes you had to connect. Definitely worth a purchase, then you have Minerva's Den DLC on top of that which is well worth the money.

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#25 Posted by MlauTheDaft (5189 posts) -

@misterpmedia said:

@MlauTheDaft said:

Considering you hear Songbird's deathcry in BS1, I'd say the entire franchise was rather well thought out.

oh woa, when?

It's a little conspirational, but I believe it's in Fort Frolic :)

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#26 Posted by misterpmedia (6132 posts) -

@MlauTheDaft said:

@misterpmedia said:

@MlauTheDaft said:

Considering you hear Songbird's deathcry in BS1, I'd say the entire franchise was rather well thought out.

oh woa, when?

It's a little conspirational, but I believe it's in Fort Frolic :)

This just make me want to go reply BioShock 1 it will easily skip the backlog I have and jump to number 1 on the queue haha.

@hrt_rulz01 said:

As a huge Bioshock fan, I honestly think they shouldn't make anymore... I don't want more games for the sake of it and ruin the legacy of the other games.

While a part of me agrees to a certain extent, I'd rather more BioShock games than most annualised third party games.

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#27 Posted by madskills6117 (4136 posts) -

I'm curious to find out what they had planned for the Vita but I dont think it will ever materialize. I enjoy the series but i'm not sure where they would go after Infinite.

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#28 Edited by misterpmedia (6132 posts) -

@madskills6117 said:

I'm curious to find out what they had planned for the Vita but I dont think it will ever materialize. I enjoy the series but i'm not sure where they would go after Infinite.

Well Ken was the one who was going to venture down that road and he's no longer with 2K and Irrational now doesn't exist lol. Technically they could recreate BioShock an Infinite amount times over. All they need to do is create an impossible city Utopia some where where a city shouldn't exist, have carefully thought out constant and variables and it'll be a BioShock game.

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#29 Posted by hrt_rulz01 (11540 posts) -

@misterpmedia said:

@MlauTheDaft said:

@misterpmedia said:

@MlauTheDaft said:

Considering you hear Songbird's deathcry in BS1, I'd say the entire franchise was rather well thought out.

oh woa, when?

It's a little conspirational, but I believe it's in Fort Frolic :)

This just make me want to go reply BioShock 1 it will easily skip the backlog I have and jump to number 1 on the queue haha.

@hrt_rulz01 said:

As a huge Bioshock fan, I honestly think they shouldn't make anymore... I don't want more games for the sake of it and ruin the legacy of the other games.

While a part of me agrees to a certain extent, I'd rather more BioShock games than most annualised third party games.

Yeah I agree with that...

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#30 Edited by Lulu_Lulu (19564 posts) -

Gameplay !

Don't Forget the Gameplay !

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#31 Posted by Boddicker (4280 posts) -

Played Bioshock 1 and 2. Knew basically that what I was getting was linear shooter.

Lost interest in the franchise.

Along comes Bioshock Infinite with promises of actual choice and morally grey decisions about which faction to back. Well.......that was quickly scrapped for a linear shooter. We can't have people helping racists!!!!!! *facepalm*

I think Bioshock 1 definitely tried to do something original with the setting and I highly appreciate it.

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#32 Posted by Vaasman (12454 posts) -

@MlauTheDaft said:

Considering you hear Songbird's deathcry in BS1, I'd say the entire franchise was rather well thought out.

Except, as has been pointed out many a time, the "crying" you hear in BS1 is a throwaway bit of ambient sound that you can hear in several places, and has no relation to anything, other than possibly being a recycled audio clip.

Trust me, I wanted that one to be true as much as anyone, but the argument for it isn't there.

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#33 Posted by LustForSoul (6197 posts) -

I honestly really disliked the gameplay in Bioshock 1 and 2 but I'm a fan of the story. Played through burial at sea, it's a nice closure to the series.

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#34 Posted by GhoX (6185 posts) -

Incoming...

Grand Theft Auto: Rapture

Civilization: Bioshock

Big Brothers: Enemy Unknown

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#35 Posted by TheEroica (16573 posts) -

@Blabadon said:

@TheEroica: Columbia feels like window dressing half the time for this extremely unresponsive and non-dynamic world. It creates scenes for a few decent gunfights and a few interesting plot points and then really fails to do anything else. The political infusions all around are neat but feel superficial and a bit parodic of any message actually trying to be conveyed.

Combat's alright. Sometimes it gets the power fantasy of being able to shoot fucking fireballs out of your hand right, most otherwise it's the same machine gun and aim-down-the-sights combo we're used to without the excitement and some truly awful AI.

Not to mention how much of this game feels like straight filler. I don't appreciate that, no matter how much pretty Columbia contains.

Pretty good assessment blab... interesting points. I think in the end, I was happy with what the game did. I liked the end game, despite realizing it's kinda silly in certain respects. I liked the gun-play despite it being a little stiff and predictable at times and I can see the filler point. lastly, I think the games beautiful locale and character were underutilized at the expense of pacing, which is done VERY well. In the end, I like the game. I was intrigued throughout, wanting to discover what came next and I really enjoyed some of the moments both fast and slow tempo'd.

I think it's a big budget, high talent game thats gonna get scrutinized because it does some things poorly. Still I enjoyed going through it . Now Killzone 2? theres a drill the head.

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#36 Posted by Blabadon (32740 posts) -

@TheEroica said:

@Blabadon said:

@TheEroica: Columbia feels like window dressing half the time for this extremely unresponsive and non-dynamic world. It creates scenes for a few decent gunfights and a few interesting plot points and then really fails to do anything else. The political infusions all around are neat but feel superficial and a bit parodic of any message actually trying to be conveyed.

Combat's alright. Sometimes it gets the power fantasy of being able to shoot fucking fireballs out of your hand right, most otherwise it's the same machine gun and aim-down-the-sights combo we're used to without the excitement and some truly awful AI.

Not to mention how much of this game feels like straight filler. I don't appreciate that, no matter how much pretty Columbia contains.

Pretty good assessment blab... interesting points. I think in the end, I was happy with what the game did. I liked the end game, despite realizing it's kinda silly in certain respects. I liked the gun-play despite it being a little stiff and predictable at times and I can see the filler point. lastly, I think the games beautiful locale and character were underutilized at the expense of pacing, which is done VERY well. In the end, I like the game. I was intrigued throughout, wanting to discover what came next and I really enjoyed some of the moments both fast and slow tempo'd.

I think it's a big budget, high talent game thats gonna get scrutinized because it does some things poorly. Still I enjoyed going through it . Now Killzone 2? theres a drill the head.

I think I can predict what the ending's gonna be, but I'll keep trekking to see.

The controls are fucking hilarious on consoles. I try skyhooking a kid to see if Levine pulled a Rockstar on us and didn't want us killing kids and the auto-aim whips around the camera 180 degrees and murders his mom. Holy shit, that was one mad Shantytown.

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#37 Posted by cfisher2833 (2150 posts) -

I'd rather Levine and his team make another Swat game. Swat 4 was the tits. And didn't he say he wanted to make more procedural games with emergent game play? Swat fits the bill perfectly.

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#38 Posted by TheEroica (16573 posts) -

@Blabadon said:

@TheEroica said:

@Blabadon said:

@TheEroica: Columbia feels like window dressing half the time for this extremely unresponsive and non-dynamic world. It creates scenes for a few decent gunfights and a few interesting plot points and then really fails to do anything else. The political infusions all around are neat but feel superficial and a bit parodic of any message actually trying to be conveyed.

Combat's alright. Sometimes it gets the power fantasy of being able to shoot fucking fireballs out of your hand right, most otherwise it's the same machine gun and aim-down-the-sights combo we're used to without the excitement and some truly awful AI.

Not to mention how much of this game feels like straight filler. I don't appreciate that, no matter how much pretty Columbia contains.

Pretty good assessment blab... interesting points. I think in the end, I was happy with what the game did. I liked the end game, despite realizing it's kinda silly in certain respects. I liked the gun-play despite it being a little stiff and predictable at times and I can see the filler point. lastly, I think the games beautiful locale and character were underutilized at the expense of pacing, which is done VERY well. In the end, I like the game. I was intrigued throughout, wanting to discover what came next and I really enjoyed some of the moments both fast and slow tempo'd.

I think it's a big budget, high talent game thats gonna get scrutinized because it does some things poorly. Still I enjoyed going through it . Now Killzone 2? theres a drill the head.

I think I can predict what the ending's gonna be, but I'll keep trekking to see.

The controls are fucking hilarious on consoles. I try skyhooking a kid to see if Levine pulled a Rockstar on us and didn't want us killing kids and the auto-aim whips around the camera 180 degrees and murders his mom. Holy shit, that was one mad Shantytown.

I predict you won't like it. haha... Thats my gut feeling. You gotta bump this thread and let me know when you finish it. I actually liked the ending, but hated the final combat sequence. it was needlessly difficult without augmenting the gameplay.

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#39 Edited by Xplode_games (721 posts) -

Excellent games, I hope they continue the quality they have established.

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#40 Edited by ReadingRainbow4 (18733 posts) -

@TheEroica said:

@Blabadon: that bad? It's not my favorite game, but I enjoyed the pacing.

I really hated the pacing, actually I really hated just about everything. :(

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#41 Posted by TheEroica (16573 posts) -

@ReadingRainbow4 said:

@TheEroica said:

@Blabadon: that bad? It's not my favorite game, but I enjoyed the pacing.

I really hated the pacing, actually I really hated just about everything. :(

really? wow, I don't think they could've paced it any better... :( Was it as good a game as the other two bioshocks? probably not... the first one anyway. It's a good franchise. Not my favorite, but I havent been disappointed with any of the games as of yet.

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#42 Posted by Bardock47 (5429 posts) -

Favorite franchise. BS1 is my favorite game. I would rather see it die at a high point, than see it raped into a mediocre franchise....but hey if they can do it right, I don't see why not.

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#43 Posted by MlauTheDaft (5189 posts) -

@Vaasman said:

@MlauTheDaft said:

Considering you hear Songbird's deathcry in BS1, I'd say the entire franchise was rather well thought out.

Except, as has been pointed out many a time, the "crying" you hear in BS1 is a throwaway bit of ambient sound that you can hear in several places, and has no relation to anything, other than possibly being a recycled audio clip.

Trust me, I wanted that one to be true as much as anyone, but the argument for it isn't there.

I already added that it's not a fact, but it's still fun.

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#44 Edited by misterpmedia (6132 posts) -

@TheEroica said:

@Blabadon said:

@TheEroica: Columbia feels like window dressing half the time for this extremely unresponsive and non-dynamic world. It creates scenes for a few decent gunfights and a few interesting plot points and then really fails to do anything else. The political infusions all around are neat but feel superficial and a bit parodic of any message actually trying to be conveyed.

Combat's alright. Sometimes it gets the power fantasy of being able to shoot fucking fireballs out of your hand right, most otherwise it's the same machine gun and aim-down-the-sights combo we're used to without the excitement and some truly awful AI.

Not to mention how much of this game feels like straight filler. I don't appreciate that, no matter how much pretty Columbia contains.

Pretty good assessment blab... interesting points. I think in the end, I was happy with what the game did. I liked the end game, despite realizing it's kinda silly in certain respects. I liked the gun-play despite it being a little stiff and predictable at times and I can see the filler point. lastly, I think the games beautiful locale and character were underutilized at the expense of pacing, which is done VERY well. In the end, I like the game. I was intrigued throughout, wanting to discover what came next and I really enjoyed some of the moments both fast and slow tempo'd.

I think it's a big budget, high talent game thats gonna get scrutinized because it does some things poorly. Still I enjoyed going through it . Now Killzone 2? theres a drill the head.

I agree with... a lot of that paragraph lol. Especially the wanting to discover part. If the formula for BioShock's 'city' design holds true and the next one is set in an equally amazing yet slightly impossible city in the past, it's gonna want to make me discover all of it as well. It's stuff like that that breaks it from the mould of just being your standard FPS.