Source: Telegraph
Because Bowling Green worked SO WELL with Kellyanne Conway, Trump brings up a non-existent incident from Sweden during his rally yesrerday.
Jeez, they're really riding off "alternate facts", aren't they?
Source: Telegraph
Because Bowling Green worked SO WELL with Kellyanne Conway, Trump brings up a non-existent incident from Sweden during his rally yesrerday.
Jeez, they're really riding off "alternate facts", aren't they?
@nintendoboy16: The same Sweden that has their Feminist political leaders flyout to Iran, just to virtue signal on how they don't need a man to sign a deal, only to embarrass themselves by forced to wear a veil while in the country, since Iran treats all their wen loke second class citizens?
@nintendoboy16: The same Sweden that has their Feminist political leaders flyout to Iran, just to virtue signal on how they don't need a man to sign a deal, only to embarrass themselves by forced to wear a veil while in the country, since Iran treats all their wen loke second class citizens?
What relevance does this have to the topic at hand? Absolutely nothing lol
@FireEmblem_Man: Nice reflection.
You mean deflection. He's been studying Conway it seems.
I like how Trump using the present-tense "happening" like this shit is always going on, like we are constantly under attack or something. It's good to stay vigilant, don't get me wrong, but god damn...
Conservatives are the most frightened people in the world. No balls.
Also, fun fact: the most recent involving immigrants and Sweden was when three white supremecists bombed a refugee center! This occured just a few short weeks ago in January but, hey, none of us heard about because of that terribly biased, liberal media.
I like how Trump using the present-tense "happening" like this shit is always going on, like we are constantly under attack or something. It's good to stay vigilant, don't get me wrong, but god damn...
Conservatives are the most frightened people in the world. No balls.
Also, fun fact: the most recent involving immigrants and Sweden was when three white supremecists bombed a refugee center! This occured just a few short weeks ago in January but, hey, none of us heard about because of that terribly biased, liberal media.
A kid was just killed by a 14 year old immigrant for defending a girl the immigrant kid was sexually harassing.
We've lost Sweden, lads. I would have liked to have visited there some day. Oh well.
I like how Trump using the present-tense "happening" like this shit is always going on, like we are constantly under attack or something. It's good to stay vigilant, don't get me wrong, but god damn...
Conservatives are the most frightened people in the world. No balls.
Also, fun fact: the most recent involving immigrants and Sweden was when three white supremecists bombed a refugee center! This occured just a few short weeks ago in January but, hey, none of us heard about because of that terribly biased, liberal media.
A kid was just killed by a 14 year old immigrant for defending a girl the immigrant kid was sexually harassing.
We've lost Sweden, lads. I would have liked to have visited there some day. Oh well.
So a stabbing is a suddenly a reason not to go somewhere? You better not leave your home, then, let alone travel to a beautiful, prosperous, open-minded and lovely country like Sweden!
Stabbings happen everywhere, dude.
Aw crap, a stabbing in Colorado
Stabbing in California. Oooh you'll like this...it happened on a stretch of road call Arabia street. Coincedence?!?! I THINK NOT!
We going across the pond to England. Police suspect The Boy Who Lived
Even the fine women in North Carolina are stabbing fools. What the hell!
Hide yo' wife, hide yo' kids, cuz they stabbin' everyone!
@mrbojangles25: No, dont make assumptions. The reason not to go is the HUGE spike in crime thanks to the large flow of immigrants that are unable to mix with the Swedes and swedish society.
And the fact that Sweden just continues to pander to them. On the current track of things, Sweden is doomed.
@nintendoboy16: The same Sweden that has their Feminist political leaders flyout to Iran, just to virtue signal on how they don't need a man to sign a deal, only to embarrass themselves by forced to wear a veil while in the country, since Iran treats all their wen loke second class citizens?
Why do you have to go offtopic?
Can you never objectively refute us?
@mrbojangles25:
Yup, it's just as you said. They're mostly scared shitless over the dumbest things and have no balls to fight back.
Regarding some of the stupidity I have seen in this thread.
Sweden's safety index is fairly average. It is safer than the US, but still fairly average. As of 2014, the murder rate was at 0.89 per 100,000 inhabitants. In 2015 that number was roughly the same. In 2016, the crime rate went up by only a very small ammount. On an interesting note sex crimes have gone down despite increased immigration. Providing further evidence that the root cause all along was the change in laws more broadly defining sexual abuse.
Sweden's economy and quality of life are fine. While I don't have any information on 2016, in 2015 it's GDP per capita was at 55000, in 2010 it was at 52000. Not exactly a third world hellhole by any means. Nor does it look close to being doomed. Sweden's biggest threat in its coming future is its rather poor fertility rate. If trends continue the way they do, the system will eventually collapse on itself. With far too many elders and not enough youth in the workforce.
The reason Sweden followed the customs has to do with Pragmaticism. You want good business relations with the rest of the world. Something Trump seems to have a difficult time comprehending.
As for the actual topic at hand, this wouldnt be the first time he did this. Previously Trump associated a fire over here with an arson. Despite there being no evidence of that being the case. He is quick to jump to conclusions. And as someone who has access to nukes, that is extremely worrying.
A world leader who believes in their own little reality and is as delusional as trump should be removed from office as soon as possible. I seriously hope, the democrats are successful in impeaching him.
this is a little off topic but trump does a lot of "look at what's happening / happened in ----" talk.
this kind of argument isn't limited to trump by any means, in fact you see it all the time but it's still problematic.
1) it assumes the listener is fully knowledgeable on ---- and therefore knows what the speaker is talking about even if the listener does not
2) if the listener is not fully knowledgeable on ---- they may pick something they do know about ---- and assume the speaker is referring to that even if the speaker is not.
3) it gets the speaker off the hook from actually having to know shit about ---- because it puts the requirement for knowledge about ---- onto the listener
it comes off as a lazy way or sounding like you know what you're talking about even if you might not.
if you're going to use that phase, don't assume the listener has any knowledge on ---- and explain it.
/rant
this is a little off topic but trump does a lot of "look at what's happening / happened in ----" talk.
this kind of argument isn't limited to trump by any means, in fact you see it all the time but it's still problematic.
1) it assumes the listener is fully knowledgeable on ---- and therefore knows what the speaker is talking about even if the listener does not
2) if the listener is not fully knowledgeable on ---- they may pick something they do know about ---- and assume the speaker is referring to that even if the speaker is not.
3) it gets the speaker off the hook from actually having to know shit about ---- because it puts the requirement for knowledge about ---- onto the listener
it comes off as a lazy way or sounding like you know what you're talking about even if you might not.
if you're going to use that phase, don't assume the listener has any knowledge on ---- and explain it.
/rant
Yeah, this irritates me a lot, too. I'd add in an additional critique: It allows the speaker to provide "evidence" of another broad point that may or may not be true. For example, "Crime rates are skyrocketing in Sweden after they let in refugees! Did you see that someone got stabbed there last week?"
It establishes a broad point that should be verifiable based on statistics and trends (which is good), but then instead of providing those numbers and trends it uses an example of a single incident that may have occurred regardless of any trends.
It is nonsense masquerading as evidence.
This is how Hitler convinced the German people to take the Jews to the gas chamber. Creating an enemy where there is none, and the citizenry rallying behind him to "fight" against it. And yet, no one can see it because they don't teach proper history in American schools.
This is how Hitler convinced the German people to take the Jews to the gas chamber. Creating an enemy where there is none, and the citizenry rallying behind him to "fight" against it. And yet, no one can see it because they don't teach proper history in American schools.
We see it. His support does not. And they are very vocal. Unfortunately.
Yeah, this irritates me a lot, too. I'd add in an additional critique: It allows the speaker to provide "evidence" of another broad point that may or may not be true. For example, "Crime rates are skyrocketing in Sweden after they let in refugees! Did you see that someone got stabbed there last week?"
It establishes a broad point that should be verifiable based on statistics and trends (which is good), but then instead of providing those numbers and trends it uses an example of a single incident that may have occurred regardless of any trends.
It is nonsense masquerading as evidence.
Not to mention the anecdotal nature of it. Something that is incredibly weak evidence.
this is a little off topic but trump does a lot of "look at what's happening / happened in ----" talk.
this kind of argument isn't limited to trump by any means, in fact you see it all the time but it's still problematic.
1) it assumes the listener is fully knowledgeable on ---- and therefore knows what the speaker is talking about even if the listener does not
2) if the listener is not fully knowledgeable on ---- they may pick something they do know about ---- and assume the speaker is referring to that even if the speaker is not.
3) it gets the speaker off the hook from actually having to know shit about ---- because it puts the requirement for knowledge about ---- onto the listener
it comes off as a lazy way or sounding like you know what you're talking about even if you might not.
if you're going to use that phase, don't assume the listener has any knowledge on ---- and explain it.
/rant
Yeah, this irritates me a lot, too. I'd add in an additional critique: It allows the speaker to provide "evidence" of another broad point that may or may not be true. For example, "Crime rates are skyrocketing in Sweden after they let in refugees! Did you see that someone got stabbed there last week?"
It establishes a broad point that should be verifiable based on statistics and trends (which is good), but then instead of providing those numbers and trends it uses an example of a single incident that may have occurred regardless of any trends.
It is nonsense masquerading as evidence.
i love things like
"the murder rate is skyrocketing! it's up 100% from last year!" if 1 person out of 100,00 was killed last year and next year 2 people out of 100,00 are killed, that's a 100% increase but still nothing to lose your mind over.
i'm always yelling at my tv over this shit. :)
I love how none of the right wingers are making any attempt to defend how trump just made up a completely fake terrorist attack
Trump talks so vague maybe because he doesn't know what he's talking about but he's not exactly lying just leaving details out.
Trump talks so vague maybe because he doesn't know what he's talking about but he's not exactly lying just leaving details out.
The "he's not lying, he's just an imbecile" defense doesn't grant me much comfort.
Is he as specific as the Fox news /program at Fox that report this incident that he refers too? From what I can gather that could be the source for his claim.
@mattbbpl: Trump says his comment was based on a Fox News broadcast that aired last Friday. Real comforting his intel comes from the television. According to Reuters, "Sweden's crime rate has fallen since 2005, official statistics show..."
Express
@horgen: FoxNews reported, "Sweden accepted 160,000 asylum-seekers last year, with Fox reporting only 500 have managed to gain employment – 0.3 per cent of those who arrived to claim refugee status." Also that there is rape and violence being covered up by Sweden's government. That sounds horrific and makes immigration look bad.
Express
@horgen: FoxNews reported, "Sweden accepted 160,000 asylum-seekers last year, with Fox reporting only 500 have managed to gain employment – 0.3 per cent of those who arrived to claim refugee status." Also that there is rape and violence being covered up by Sweden's government. That sounds horrific and makes immigration look bad.
I believe actually getting a job if you are labelled as an asylum seeker/refugee is pretty hard. Much harder than it really should be.
As for the government actually covering up rape and violence by refugees I don't believe it. Yes I expect the rate to be higher. I really do, but I'll wait for proper studies on it first.
@FireEmblem_Man: Nice reflection.
You mean deflection. He's been studying Conway it seems.
Express
@horgen: FoxNews reported, "Sweden accepted 160,000 asylum-seekers last year, with Fox reporting only 500 have managed to gain employment – 0.3 per cent of those who arrived to claim refugee status." Also that there is rape and violence being covered up by Sweden's government. That sounds horrific and makes immigration look bad.
I believe actually getting a job if you are labelled as an asylum seeker/refugee is pretty hard. Much harder than it really should be.
As for the government actually covering up rape and violence by refugees I don't believe it. Yes I expect the rate to be higher. I really do, but I'll wait for proper studies on it first.
It's really happening
The Police in Sweden is blasting their own government for the cover ups
Lol, there is no cover up. How gullible can people be?
The facts and data does not support the assertions. Statistically speaking, Sweden's safety index, while going down slightly. Is not exactly enough to support this "huge crime wave" hypothesis.
ANyways regarding the myths spread around on the internet these days... here is a pretty good fact checking,
http://www.thelocal.se/20170220/sweden-facts-a-closer-look-at-filmmaker-ami-horowitz-claims
Trump talks so vague maybe because he doesn't know what he's talking about but he's not exactly lying just leaving details out.
Which is a form of deception.
@mattbbpl: Trump says his comment was based on a Fox News broadcast that aired last Friday. Real comforting his intel comes from the television. According to Reuters, "Sweden's crime rate has fallen since 2005, official statistics show..."
I guess a bright side of having a president that believes this stuff is that it's becoming clearer by the day how ridiculous and damaging this mindset is. Maybe it will encourage people to vet their sources again rather than relying on Facebook posts and Breitbart for their information.
God, it pains me that the standard for mass-consumed nonsense has shifted from Fox News/MSNBC to Breitbart. Our standards are abysmal.
@mattbbpl: Trump says his comment was based on a Fox News broadcast that aired last Friday. Real comforting his intel comes from the television. According to Reuters, "Sweden's crime rate has fallen since 2005, official statistics show..."
I guess a bright side of having a president that believes this stuff is that it's becoming clearer by the day how ridiculous and damaging this mindset is. Maybe it will encourage people to vet their sources again rather than relying on Facebook posts and Breitbart for their information.
God, it pains me that the standard for mass-consumed nonsense has shifted from Fox News/MSNBC to Breitbart. Our standards are abysmal.
Yeah. And to make matters worse,
People are blatantly rejecting statistics and hard data. In favor of anecdotes, someone else's accounts and personal hunches.
Edit: I agree. Hopefully after this disasterous administration is over. People will learn how important critical thinking really is.
@FireEmblem_Man: Two police officers aren't enough. It is as credible as if I mentioned that I've spoken with people living in Sweden and they have their view on it. My brother has both worked and lived in what is supposedly the worst area in Malmø. Still never experienced or witnessed anything there like media want you to believe.
Yeah. And to make matters worse,
People are blatantly rejecting statistics and hard data. In favor of anecdotes, someone else's accounts and personal hunches.
Edit: I agree. Hopefully after this disasterous administration is over. People will learn how important critical thinking really is.
I doubt they will, sadly enough.
@Maroxad: the crowd goes wild over the things Trump says.
Sourcing Fox News at a rally, all of them folks saw the Friday night report and new exactly what he was talking about.
Is the Fox News report deceptive? I don't know how true is the refugee employment rate but the allegations that Sweden is hiding crime rates needs proof.
@nintendoboy16: Ah damn I missed your thread. Sorry about that.
Shit happens my friend. :)
lol Sweden covering up massive crime sprees done by immigrants!!!! Can we get a 'fake news' moniker for the forums just like the proposed FB implementation?
What an embarrassment.
This is how Hitler convinced the German people to take the Jews to the gas chamber. Creating an enemy where there is none, and the citizenry rallying behind him to "fight" against it. And yet, no one can see it because they don't teach proper history in American schools.
We see it. His support does not. And they are very vocal. Unfortunately.
What scares me are the "better-safe-than-sorry'ers" out there. These are the people that, for example, might not explicitly hate homosexuals, but they don't want their kids thinking that's a normal way of life, so they vote against same-sex marriage. They tell their friends they're cool with gays, and they'd never tell a soul how they voted, but they vote against it.
Likewise, they have no problem with Hispanics and might even get chummy with the guy that mows their lawn because they like to practice their Spanish, but they'll be damned if they'll support his right to a fair wage because then they could buy a house in their neighborhood and it might drive their property values down.
It's people like this that don't necessarily force things to happen, but allow them to, and there are enough of them. And their views only get worse and more conservative with age. Trump does not need to convince everyone, or even a lot of people...he just needs to convince enough people to make it seem like it's a big deal and, as you said, they are vocal and it appears like exactly that whenever they open their big fat mouths.
It's frightening and I think we are going to be saying "how did this happen?" and "how did it come to this?" a lot more before Trump is out.
@FireEmblem_Man: Two police officers aren't enough. It is as credible as if I mentioned that I've spoken with people living in Sweden and they have their view on it. My brother has both worked and lived in what is supposedly the worst area in Malmø. Still never experienced or witnessed anything there like media want you to believe.
Has your brother seen this?
@Maroxad: the crowd goes wild over the things Trump says.
Sourcing Fox News at a rally, all of them folks saw the Friday night report and new exactly what he was talking about.
Is the Fox News report deceptive? I don't know how true is the refugee employment rate but the allegations that Sweden is hiding crime rates needs proof.
http://www.economist.com/news/finance-economics/21709511-too-few-refugees-not-too-many-are-working-europe-refugees-sweden-are
Refugee unemployment rate is relatively large, having roughly a 22.5% unemployment rate. One of the driving causes for this is how the swedish labor industry works. Emphasizing skilled employment as opposed to unskilled labour.
This is of course using actual statistics and data as opposed to taking anecdotes and blow them out of proportion.
@FireEmblem_Man: Seen and read some articles about it. I really hope it is a single incident and won't be more.
I have also seen other videos and read articles, like the 60 minutes video, and there must have been things happening behind the camera that we aren't shown.
Atm I think it sounds to much like a conspiracy theory to take it seriously. With that said I do expect certain types of crimes to be higher among the refugees they have taken in. But higher doesn't necessarily mean high.
@Maroxad: The Economist 22.5% unemployment rate is only measuring refugees before last year, "these figures do not yet include the 163,000 asylum-seekers who arrived in Sweden last year (see chart)." Fox News claims only 0.03% of the Syrian refugees let in last year alone found jobs. They're not including refugees before last year. Two separate statistics.
@Maroxad: The Economist 22.5% unemployment rate is only measuring refugees before last year, "these figures do not yet include the 163,000 asylum-seekers who arrived in Sweden last year (see chart)." Fox News claims only 0.03% of the Syrian refugees let in last year alone found jobs. They're not including refugees before last year. Two separate statistics.
.03% of 163,000 works out to fewer than 50 people. That's a number that makes me go hmmmm..... It's so absurdly low that things like misrepresentation, deceptive methodology, and false causality come to mind.
It's like those claims of 90 million Americans being unemployed - it doesn't pass the smell test, so it at least demands a deeper look before I buy in.
@playmynutz: That is just Fox news sucking at maths... again. The actual % is off by a whole magnitude ;) It is at 0.3%, which to be fair is still a dismal number.
But that also highlights the main problem here. The problem, despite what the paranoid people say... is NOT terrorism or crime, which despite the rise of refugees, the actual crime rate has barely gone up. The problem is the fact that there just isn't enough work for them.
Edit: That is of course assuming they want to work.
Some refugees come here not to flee from war, but rather to take advantage of the economic system. Of the total population, (50%) lack marketable skills in the highly competitive marketplace, language barriers can make it difficult to find work and sometimes there is just genuine discrimination going on. the thing is not as black and white as some people would like to believe. Due to an aging population, I can say I am for the immigration process sweden is doing. HOWEVER, while getting in more young blood into the workforce is good, Sweden is kinda biting a hell lot more than it can chew at the moment. Balance and moderation is key.
@Maroxad: so more like 5,000/160,000 employed refugees huh. European immigration can't be compared to the US. Countries like Sweden have a working healthcare system and different welfare policies. Any immigrating population will find it difficult to find employment because yeah language barriers and such, doesn't mean they're criminals. Young immigrants are more likely to join gangs/terrorists though.
If Trump wants to advocate stricter immigration, calling out Sweden wasn't the smartest approach to getting his point across. It just isn't a terrorist breeding ground his narrative tries to tell. There's better example of why immigration could be bad like the rising gang violence. I could pull a whole lot of articles on the surging gang violence in the east coast, possibly due to immigration, here's one:
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2017/02/17/ten-arrested-four-illegal-aliens-savage-gang-related-killing-maryland-teen/
@mattbbpl: the Fox News number is hard to believe.
@playmynutz: That is just Fox news sucking at maths... again. The actual % is off by a whole magnitude ;) It is at 0.3%, which to be fair is still a dismal number.
But that also highlights the main problem here. The problem, despite what the paranoid people say... is NOT terrorism or crime, which despite the rise of refugees, the actual crime rate has barely gone up. The problem is the fact that there just isn't enough work for them.
Edit: That is of course assuming they want to work.
Some refugees come here not to flee from war, but rather to take advantage of the economic system. Of the total population, (50%) lack marketable skills in the highly competitive marketplace, language barriers can make it difficult to find work and sometimes there is just genuine discrimination going on. the thing is not as black and white as some people would like to believe. Due to an aging population, I can say I am for the immigration process sweden is doing. HOWEVER, while getting in more young blood into the workforce is good, Sweden is kinda biting a hell lot more than it can chew at the moment. Balance and moderation is key.
Allowing such a large unskilled population into one's country where there are few to no jobs for them is not a smart move. When one has a country whose job market requires skills of some sort, having thousands and thousands of people sitting around getting free services (on the backs of the taxpayers in said country) is gonna cause people to fell a pinch from the government or from the immigrants themselves someway, somehow.
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