Is "The Last of Us" overrated?

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#51 Posted by KHAndAnime (13456 posts) -

The guy above is not too bright... lol.

Better than "Taxi Driver"??? LMAO.

Fans of this game generally aren't that bright ;) I'm surprised a fan of this game's story has even heard of Taxi Driver. Not surprised they like this more. They should check out The Road, or I Am Legend, or one of the other many sources this Last of Us directly ripped from - TLOU seems ridiculously unoriginal afterwards.

#52 Posted by Toxic-Seahorse (4118 posts) -

I just beat the game for PS4 (never got the PS3 version) and while I definitely thought it was a good game, there wasn't anything all that outstanding about it. Everything has been done before, and better. The pieces fit together well though, but I wouldn't call it a masterpiece.

#53 Posted by Lulu_Lulu (10310 posts) -

@KHAndAnime

Nothing is original anymore and we can't just keep watching the original stuff, so originality is not a valid criteria anymore.

Lets judge it by its execution.

#54 Posted by Soethi6 (53 posts) -

It got better yesterday as I advanced in the story. I still regret buying it on PSN, would rather have sold it after playing.

#55 Posted by MondasM (1228 posts) -

@KHAndAnime:

i reckon everyone is entitled to their opinion, if one does like something more than another, that is preference... on the other hand i reckon "the road" resembles the game more, however more or less the parallel theme of the movie and game do not mean that they are the same, i liked both very much... the fact that tlou is interactive and pushes you to develop a relation with the characters is a welcome bonus, which connects you more to the game and the story...

i still do not get the low-balling of the community, one does not have to like everything but it is just preference, and everyone at one point may have "inferior" taste than any other...

#56 Posted by Lulu_Lulu (10310 posts) -

@MondasM

The entire game wasn't interactive, most of the story was experienced so passively that it might actually be better if it was a movie....

#57 Edited by Mr-Powers (229 posts) -

@fred_flatulence said:

The guy above is not too bright... lol.

Better than "Taxi Driver"??? LMAO.

Fans of this game generally aren't that bright ;) I'm surprised a fan of this game's story has even heard of Taxi Driver. Not surprised they like this more. They should check out The Road, or I Am Legend, or one of the other many sources this Last of Us directly ripped from - TLOU seems ridiculously unoriginal afterwards.

That's an incredibly idiotic thing to say, and then to top it off you recommend The Road and I Am Legend. The Road is ok, but to claim they were directly ripped is a simplistic analysis to say the least. Because it's the end of the world and the guy has a beard and a kid? The concepts in those films weren't original when they released either.

What makes TLOU so great is the story, characters, their growth, their relationships and behavior in their enviornment, all combined with great art and visuals, great music, and tight gameplay. A rare sight in gaming, to invest so much in things viewed as "non-essential" is rare without backing from a source such as a Console Maker.

#58 Posted by Prawephet (154 posts) -

Played the game for about 5 hours. Never touched it again. I would go as far as to say I simply didn't like it. I believe I gave it a fair opportunity. Just not for me I guess.

#59 Posted by Lulu_Lulu (10310 posts) -

@Prawephet

It wasn't that bad..... Was it ?

#60 Posted by Ross_the_Boss6 (2540 posts) -

Naw. It's pretty incredible. Uncharted on the other hand...

#61 Posted by MondasM (1228 posts) -

@Lulu_Lulu: imho, the story wasn't interactive but the game was, but who's nitpicking??? :)

#62 Posted by Lulu_Lulu (10310 posts) -

@MondasM

When I watch a Movie, parts of it aren't experienced via text, its a cinematic experience through and through. Video Games are no different. some Parts of the game are not Interactive so those parts are irrelevant to video gaming, The Last Of Us's Narrative is mostly passive.... Its Fantastic but unless its interactive then its kinda pointless. Like trying to determine how well written a book is by its pictures instead of the actual writing. So yeah... I am nitpicking.

What sucks is The Prologue was on the right track... If they just kept doing things like that then it wouldve been just fine.

#63 Edited by MondasM (1228 posts) -

@Lulu_Lulu:

you are right, but all of the games that we are playing are scripted, whether there is a single ending or there are 15 endings, so it is the illusion of interactivity, which i am ok with, since the games are nothing more than books and movies, with you interacting with their scripted mechanics, physics and some element of the story...

tlou's story may not appeal to you, i did not like the ending since i would have liked to sacrifice ellie for the good of the mankind, however i am ok with nd's choice, since they wanted to make you feel a certain way, which they could not have done otherwise, and this does not mean that this game is a poorly scripted game, on the contrary it is one of the titles that has impressed me a lot when i look back to the games i've played during the last decade...

#64 Posted by Lulu_Lulu (10310 posts) -

@MondasM

TLOU story does appeal to me... Hell even its narrative appeals to me, its just not video game narrative.

"....since they wanted to make you feel a

certain way...."

Anybody who has this mindset should stay far away from making video games. Clearly they have issues relenquishing control to the player.

anyway, No not all video game stories are scripted. Not by a long shot. Thats just growing a trend in the industry thats trying to gain popularity in a format people are already familiar and comfortable with, truth is narratives through gameplay just aren't many gamer's cup of tea.

#65 Edited by MondasM (1228 posts) -

@Lulu_Lulu:

i do not think there is anything wrong with anticipating the readers', gamers' on moviegoers' feelings and trying to manipulate them in different ways, it's just anther means of storytelling or engaging the receivers' attention... i like playing video games, reading books and watching movies to see the perspective of other people's (writers' in this case) thoughts, actions and reactions on various subjects, war, love, compassion, different situations, i already have my take anyways, maybe that's why i am not considering these stories to be restrictive, although they are... :)

and i am happy that you do not feel exactly the same way, because if everyone was thinking alike, that would make everything uniform and stale, our differences and nuances are the mortar of life... :)

#66 Posted by Vatusus (4448 posts) -

I only recently beat TLOU on the PS3 and being late to the party I thought the game would be a disappointment and all the initial praise would be hype. Much to my surprise the game was actually FANTASTIC. Grabbed me from the very 1st minute and I couldnt put it down for hours and hours. Its one of the few games I played that actually deserved all the praise it got contrary to some (*cough* BioShock Infinite *cough*)

#67 Edited by Vatusus (4448 posts) -

@fred_flatulence said:

The guy above is not too bright... lol.

Better than "Taxi Driver"??? LMAO.

Fans of this game generally aren't that bright ;) I'm surprised a fan of this game's story has even heard of Taxi Driver. Not surprised they like this more. They should check out The Road, or I Am Legend, or one of the other many sources this Last of Us directly ripped from - TLOU seems ridiculously unoriginal afterwards.

The Road by McCarthy is great but I Am Legend (the book, I read it) is actually average at best. I prefered TLOU story and characters over I Am Legend tbh

You guys should stop patronizing game stories just because they're games. Silent Hill 2 had a better story than most books I've read. The negative quotation about games stories should end. We arent in the 90's anymore

#68 Posted by jesslee099 (13 posts) -

@Farty_Fartsalot: No. What kind of question is this?

Just kidding. I think it's good. But not as good as most people hails it.

#69 Posted by gregbmil (2607 posts) -

I think it was. I found the game to be pretty boring overall. I will never forget that opening though!

#70 Posted by Farty_Fartsalot (29 posts) -

Without McCarthy & Danny Boyle, TLOU wouldn't even exist.

#71 Edited by Notorious1234NA (316 posts) -

@Vatusus: It's just that you comparing two different mediums.

  • Videogames is to gameplay
  • Books well storytelling

The two should never overlap to this extent.

#72 Posted by kye-mc (45 posts) -

I completed the last of us remastered about half an hour ago for the first time and can honestly say my view on triple A games has changed totally. It was outstanding in every way, and instead of being this pretty picture with hardly any fun (*cough* Bioshock, Dead Space etc.) it was the most fun I've had in months for any game. It really was a journey and I doubt Naughty Dog will ever top it. Amazing. I'm playing the DLC soon and I never do that.

#73 Posted by starwolf474 (562 posts) -

Nope. It's an amazing game that deserves all the praise it gets.

#74 Posted by Seabas989 (10118 posts) -

Yes but I still think it's a great game.

#75 Edited by KHAndAnime (13456 posts) -

@KHAndAnime said:

@fred_flatulence said:

The guy above is not too bright... lol.

Better than "Taxi Driver"??? LMAO.

Fans of this game generally aren't that bright ;) I'm surprised a fan of this game's story has even heard of Taxi Driver. Not surprised they like this more. They should check out The Road, or I Am Legend, or one of the other many sources this Last of Us directly ripped from - TLOU seems ridiculously unoriginal afterwards.

That's an incredibly idiotic thing to say, and then to top it off you recommend The Road and I Am Legend. The Road is ok, but to claim they were directly ripped is a simplistic analysis to say the least. Because it's the end of the world and the guy has a beard and a kid? The concepts in those films weren't original when they released either.

What makes TLOU so great is the story, characters, their growth, their relationships and behavior in their enviornment, all combined with great art and visuals, great music, and tight gameplay. A rare sight in gaming, to invest so much in things viewed as "non-essential" is rare without backing from a source such as a Console Maker.

If that's all the connections you made between those material, I'm curious if you were paying attention in the slightest. So if you copy a bunch of good material, you automatically have a good story? Maybe if you have low as shit standards.

And lol @ "there's nothing original anymore". Good one.

#76 Posted by KHAndAnime (13456 posts) -

@KHAndAnime

Nothing is original anymore and we can't just keep watching the original stuff, so originality is not a valid criteria anymore.

Lets judge it by its execution.

No offense but that's one of the silliest things I've ever heard. With enough spin or variation on an idea, you can have something perfectly original. TLOU felt like a movie I've seen a dozen time before, and it put me to sleep. If you've seen enough films, the lame trope onslaught that TLOU contains is enough to kill a man. You can only roll your eyes so many times. There's paying homage to a genre, and then there's simply trying to clone the genre, and that's exactly what TLOU's story did with its post-apocalypse story. It's not the worst story in the world, but damn, it's far from the best story in a videogame...

#77 Posted by Lulu_Lulu (10310 posts) -

@KHAndAnime

There is nothing New under the sun.... Only things that have come before your time.

#78 Posted by Glutenbob (249 posts) -

TLOU is a masterpiece. Honestly the best game I have ever played.

Mass Effect series was my fav until The Last of Us.

No other game has had me this tensed up throughout. They really made you feel like you were fighting for your life in that game, which made it even more important since they made you feel obligated to keep Ellie safe.

Naughty Gods have just become my fav developers.

#79 Posted by sukraj (22177 posts) -

I just beat the game for PS4 (never got the PS3 version) and while I definitely thought it was a good game, there wasn't anything all that outstanding about it. Everything has been done before, and better. The pieces fit together well though, but I wouldn't call it a masterpiece.

some people call it a master blaster

#80 Posted by Soethi6 (53 posts) -

@soethi6 said:

It got better yesterday as I advanced in the story. I still regret buying it on PSN, would rather have sold it after playing.

Okay, so after beating the game on saturday, I played some mp yesterday. The mp is great in my opinion. It is a welcome change to BF4. Plus, I started a new game on Normal Plus for my second playthrough. It is a great game. I don't regret the PSN purchase anymore.

#81 Edited by Fred_Flatulence (46 posts) -

@Glutenbob: Naughty Gods have just become my fav developers.

LMAO. Please shut up...

#82 Edited by Lulu_Lulu (10310 posts) -

@Fred_Flatulence

Thats no way to treat anybody.... He can have whatever he wants as his favourite !

#83 Edited by Fred_Flatulence (46 posts) -
#84 Posted by Lulu_Lulu (10310 posts) -

@Fred_Flatulence

You heard me !

#85 Posted by KHAndAnime (13456 posts) -

@Vatusus said:

@KHAndAnime said:

@fred_flatulence said:

The guy above is not too bright... lol.

Better than "Taxi Driver"??? LMAO.

Fans of this game generally aren't that bright ;) I'm surprised a fan of this game's story has even heard of Taxi Driver. Not surprised they like this more. They should check out The Road, or I Am Legend, or one of the other many sources this Last of Us directly ripped from - TLOU seems ridiculously unoriginal afterwards.

The Road by McCarthy is great but I Am Legend (the book, I read it) is actually average at best. I prefered TLOU story and characters over I Am Legend tbh

You guys should stop patronizing game stories just because they're games. Silent Hill 2 had a better story than most books I've read. The negative quotation about games stories should end. We arent in the 90's anymore

That's like saying people should stop belittling videogames movies simply because they're movies about videogames, without realizing it has nothing to do with the fact that they're movies about videogames - they're simply crap movies.

Game stories aren't patronized because they're games. They're simply poorly written. Game's aren't supposed to be about great writing - they can contain it (Stanley Parable), but when the writing is strong, usually the gameplay suffers for it. Let's get real, we're playing videogames, people don't want to play stories. I don't fault developers for failing to include good stories, games should be about good gameplay.

If videogame story writers were any good, they'd actually be famous writers. They obviously aren't particularly good, and that's why none of them are famous writers or have any recognition in a community of authors.

#86 Edited by Christiaan1996 (56 posts) -

Huge over rated piece of garbage...I got it with my console and all I can say is that it's a piece of SHIT!!!!!! zombie crap...

#87 Edited by Lulu_Lulu (10310 posts) -

@KHAndAnime

Damn that seems abit harsh don't'ya think ? :(

#88 Edited by Fred_Flatulence (46 posts) -

@filben said:

Well, first of all, a game "being overrated" is a personal view. So you'll always find someone who thinks a game is overrated. I find TLoU not overrated. Even a game scoring 10/10 isn't flawless. No game ever is flawless. That applies to TLoU, too. But it's a well crafted experience with thrilling events and dramaturgy with simple but solid and glitch-free survival mechanics. The game doesn't over-complicate things but still offer you a crafting system that is really useful. There a many scenes that let you decide how to solve the conflict (not story-wise, of course, but gameplay-wise). Exploring get you rewarded by finding stuff you need for crafting or by finding things that adds up to the atmosphere.

The AI is clever and your followers react believable to their surround. They staring at things like posters, looking under stuff. Ellie starts to whistle or hum a song, comment different actions and situations. For the atmosphere there is this downside that the enemy AI won't react to your followers AI if you haven't spotted. For the gameplay it's good because... you know games like Resident Evil 4, 5 and 6 and other ones with company AI being more useless and a pain in the ass than helpful. The gameplay is rather slow-paced so you have to take your time, adapt your "consumption" accordingly. It's not a Soldier of Fortune 1 or Quake. Focusing on story, characters, your surroundings and the subtle things. I've finished it three times and every time I noticed something else I haven't before.

The graphics aren't state-of-the-art but the atmosphere is great and the graphics and art-design deliver exactly what you need for this sort of game. The voice acting and cutscene acting is superb. And the protagonist isn't a typical hero you would expect.

Sure, the story isn't something like a Memento by Christopher Nolan. But then again it's a simple apokalyptic story with mankind doomed to die or kill themselves. But for that it does a pretty good job with the story-arc and its dramaturgy.

Of course there will be people criticizing things about the game. As for any game. You could criticize the lack of exploring (it would be wrong to say there is no exploring at all, however). Maybe one do really think so but then the same person should be honest and criticize this for many other action and story-driven games. And for that genre it's probably over 80% of them because it's rather untypical for such games. And one have to weight negative points: is this a real shortcoming you can't get over with and would eliminating it make the game better WITHOUT creating shortfall in some other aspect? (let's say someone wished more action. That could be a legitit criticism. But wouldn't it less survival, making finding stuff more and more obsolet?)

I don't think it's the best game I've ever played but it's a damn good one and therefore not overrated. My amount of playthroughs speak for itself. I think it's only topped by Deus Ex 1, Fallout 2 and Prince of Persia Warrior Within (this one with all its flaws >.>).

Do you work for Naughty Dog or are you a comedian?

#89 Edited by filben (34 posts) -
@fred_flatulence said:

Do you work for Naughty Dog or are you a comedian?

Yes, I work for Naughty Dog. And I actually do standup comedy.

#90 Edited by _Judas_ (718 posts) -

It is not overrated. It is a fantastic piece of gaming experience, probably amongs my selections of the best of the 2000'.

I could go into detail about the characters, the story and the emotional bond between players and characters, but you've already heard all of that before.

Someone mentioned above the links between "I am Legend" and "The Road". These novels are fairly familiar to me as I have written my master's thesis using these novels as (primary) source novels. The link is obvious, although the element of carrying a bag of weapons through the wilderness, turning that bag of weapons into a beloved child, is different from dragging your son along, searching for some meaning to your destroyed life. The amazing thing about The Last of Us is that it is the first of it's kind (?) to transfer that feeling you get from reading a "beautiful" novel ("The Road") to the emotional sensation you get from watching a masterful drama film, and presenting it to PS4-gamers.

This presents the PS4 and gaming on-par with movies and literature when it comes to cultural impact. This is where I want consoles and gaming to be! Standing tall and proud next to "Moby Dick" , "Great Expectations" , "MacBeth" and please, feel free to insert your own literary work of choice, and "Shawshank redemption" , effin' "Schindler's List" and insert drama movie title. I hope to see schools teaching and educating students in the art of video game ethics, character choices and character progression in games such as "The last of Us" and the Tell-Tale Games. Astonishing!

Sorry for the digression... No! The Last of Us is Not! Overrated. It remains, at least for me, as one of the most defining, fantastic video games so far.

#91 Posted by Lulu_Lulu (10310 posts) -

@_Judas_

Really ? You couldn't even spare one sentence to talk about the gameplay ?

Anyway, What good are the Ethics and Choices if the character is the one thats making them ? Its a game, not a movie, infact A movie could probably handle those things much better anyway !

#92 Posted by _Judas_ (718 posts) -

@Lulu_Lulu: The gameplay is third-person shooter, nothing new. I happen to like third-person shooters. I'm going to talk more about the gameplay features now for your benefit:

-I really enjoy the ubiqutious cover-mechanics; you easily and smartly stick where you want to stick. It makes the gameplay function more seamlessly, better flow.

-People are criticizing the A.I. I, for one, applaud it. If works very well -- the enemies will try to flank you, they will behave differently depending on what weapon you have -- it's all really immersive. Sometimes when running for cover, I'll admit there are some weird moments when they run right by you, but this is true for any A.I. I also like teh fact that they head for your character's last knon location, meaning you can ambush them or circle around them.

-The set-pieces are fantastic and offers plenty of replayability. Many options on how to progress certain parts of the level.

-Enemies present different "routes". One type of enemy will eliminate certain play-styles. There are differences between encountering clickers and stalkers.

-Subtle variations to the gameplay offers unique tests. One example is when Joel is caught in a trap and left swinging up-side-down. You have to defend Ellie and yourself while working to get you back down.

-Crafting-mechanics give the gameplay a feel of added depth. Crafting nail-bombs and molotov cocktails give you an aggresive or defensive edge. Crafting smoke bombs gives you the oppertunity to stun and sneak around enemies, or run into the smoke screen and hack the enemies to pieces. Your choice. This ultimately allows you to sacrifice some ingredients for aggresive behaviour (bombs, barbed weapons) or for defensive properties (smoke bomb, first-aid kit).

...I can add more, if you want more, I can PM you.

2)
Have you ever seen a movie and thought "I wouldn't have done that", or "I would've killed that guy". Games, especially The Tell-Tale games allows you do make those differences. Granted, there aren't many choices in "tlou" -- it's all about immersion, and this is what this game does fantastically. It's about character progression -- the game makes you understand the characters and even bond with them on some level. I can understand that this can be a problem to some people, but when I play games, I like to get sucked in - you understand what I mean?

A game like Tlou raises lots of important questions regarding ethics -- what are the fireflies fighting for? WHY are they fighting? What's wrong with living in quarentine zones? Why are the scavengers killing people? Is it because they are "bad"? What makes a man or person bad? Do rules still apply to this universe? Who will police Joel for killing scavengers? The characters are making the decisions, yes, but these decisions help us understand and know the characters. That's what we mean when we say that TLOU is a character-driven story.

A movie and a game handles these questions on ethics differently -- in games, such as "The Walking Dead", it gives you control of the options. It might not be ultimate control, but it allows you to possess the character, putting some of YOU into the character, and deciding the outcome. Movies forces you to obey the characters and understand what they do. Although, movies also can be character-driven, such as bieldungsromans, but here we can anticipate the actions of the characters. In videogames, we play a part in the action and often apply our own ethics to the characters.

This became a rather long post. I could post you more in-depth information in a PM if you wish.

#93 Posted by Lulu_Lulu (10310 posts) -

@_Judas_

- The Coversystem makes it cumbersome to peak around corners, even navigating the enviroment is an issue since joel's back is always to the camera, makes it diificult to look behind me because he turns with the camera but only presses up against the cover with his front side only. And theres the basic stuff of not being able to do corner take downs, a very important feature considering since most of these baddies move faster than you can sneakup behind them, when they're in motion. I know it sounds like nitpicking but I've been spotted like this constantly, the coversystem works just fine in fire fights.

- The A.I. Is impressive so yeah sure...

- The set pieces have options ? You mean those scripted sequences that are suppose to happen a certain way ? Like the Prologue and Joel's lil "accident" ?

- Sneaking around enemies sucks, since you're not given the clever mechanics of a proper stealth game. I hate it when they stifle resources just to get me to play the boring way.

- That was very very annoying.

- Crafting adds more complexity, not depth, its a hurdle and inconvenience that you have to jump over just to be able to play effectively, its a colossal nuassence more importantly its a clever way to extend the game by adding more items to tediously scavenge the enviroment for.

Ive seen many movies and the The Last Of Us is no different, you maybe controlling Joel, you may agree with his choices, you may believe you wouldve made the same choices but in reality Joel is his own person and he makes the only choices that matter, leaving the player with typical game choices like "should I use the revolver or the 9mm ?"and even thats fucked up because why in the world do you have two handgunds that are practically indifferent from one another yet use different ammo ? It causes unnecessary clutter. Atleast when I watch a movie I don't have to deal with these annoyances. And fewer annoyances means more immersion. Lately This whole immersion and realism thing is being used to mask a game's many problems. Its like a cheap magic trick.

Yes PM me, if you have more I wanna hear it.

#94 Posted by jsmoke03 (12766 posts) -

awesome game. Didnt like it at first, but really started really enjoying it once i realized i didnt have to shoot everyone lol

#95 Edited by thegamingjunkie (202 posts) -

@Lulu_Lulu said:

"should I use the revolver or the 9mm ?"

Lmfao. Sorry, that gave me a laugh.

#96 Edited by Lulu_Lulu (10310 posts) -

@thegamingjunkie

I had very few complaints about the game, until I played it on Survivor Mode.... Nothing exposes a games flaws quite like crushing difficulty.

#97 Posted by NYCHD (6 posts) -

In my opinion it is very much overrated. It's not that the game isn't well made, it's the overly emotional way people act towards a story that while good wasn't great by any stretch of the imagination and game play that was playable but not great either. Yet somehow people hold it over their head like its the new heir to the gaming kingdom. They pretend that its somehow not a zombie game but instead some type of high art form that will change your life.

#98 Posted by Lulu_Lulu (10310 posts) -

@NYCHD

Are you saying Zombies can't be some type of high art form ?

#99 Posted by Marduke1913 (46 posts) -

It's been a while and were still discussing it so that says something. Bad games only get the criticism spotlight for a short while. The experience you get from this game, which is like a movie/game combined is what every $60 game should get you.

#100 Posted by cooolio (451 posts) -

@Vatusus said:

@KHAndAnime said:

@fred_flatulence said:

The guy above is not too bright... lol.

Better than "Taxi Driver"??? LMAO.

Fans of this game generally aren't that bright ;) I'm surprised a fan of this game's story has even heard of Taxi Driver. Not surprised they like this more. They should check out The Road, or I Am Legend, or one of the other many sources this Last of Us directly ripped from - TLOU seems ridiculously unoriginal afterwards.

The Road by McCarthy is great but I Am Legend (the book, I read it) is actually average at best. I prefered TLOU story and characters over I Am Legend tbh

You guys should stop patronizing game stories just because they're games. Silent Hill 2 had a better story than most books I've read. The negative quotation about games stories should end. We arent in the 90's anymore

That's like saying people should stop belittling videogames movies simply because they're movies about videogames, without realizing it has nothing to do with the fact that they're movies about videogames - they're simply crap movies.

Game stories aren't patronized because they're games. They're simply poorly written. Game's aren't supposed to be about great writing - they can contain it (Stanley Parable), but when the writing is strong, usually the gameplay suffers for it. Let's get real, we're playing videogames, people don't want to play stories. I don't fault developers for failing to include good stories, games should be about good gameplay.

If videogame story writers were any good, they'd actually be famous writers. They obviously aren't particularly good, and that's why none of them are famous writers or have any recognition in a community of authors.

And that is the very mindset that a lot of people have when it comes to video games. Some people do not even want cutscenes of 4 minutes or less. If you go into a game seeing the story as just a nuisance, then you will never recognize it as being good.