ALL MMORPGS: Abandoned by Turtlemilk

Before MMORPGs were released, games were played solely for the fun factor. In MMORPGs, although the fun factor may be the ideal objective, it is not always the reality.

In countless cases, players do things in MMORPGs even when they don't want to - even if they find them boring - simply because of the mathematical power they will gain.

Although the players may find it boring, they quest to level and grind for points. Although the players may find it boring, they mindlessly farm for resources to raise money and improve their tradeskills. When they are burned out or don't necessarily feel like it, players will log on and raid with their guild simply to aid them with progression. They work.

In World of Warcraft, for example, my Orc Warlock received the Gladiator title on the Lightninghoof server. After I received it, I started looking back, and I realized that I didn't have too much fun obtaining it. I could not honestly say to myself that I enjoyed and had lots of fun grinding over 100,000 Honor in Alterac Valley. I could not honestly say to myself that I enjoyed playing game after game in the Arena, gaining ~5 points when victorious and losing ~25 when defeated. I could not honestly say that I enjoyed constantly spamming Shadowbolts in Karazhan, Zul'Aman and various other Heroic Dungeons to farm for Badges of Justice.

As each "season" was released in World of Warcraft, the game became less and less fun. Each season basically said, "Congratulations on your full set of gear. Now we're going to make it outdated. Enjoy grinding yet another 100,000 Honor, enjoy getting additional Enchanting materials, Gems, and enjoy getting additional Badges of Justice. To make it even more entertaining, you are going to have to get your points and materials in the exact same manner as before. You are going to have to repeat yourself constantly. You just spammed Battlegrounds for 100,000 Honor? Okay - do it again! Enjoy."

I had this friend who once said to me, "Man, grinding for Honor is so boring." I said to him, "Then don't do it." His response was, "Well, I have to for my Vindicator's." Is that what a game is supposed to be? Why do people constantly play a game that they find boring?

After playing an uncountable amount MMORPGs, including Age of Conan, I finally came to such a realization. The simple fact of the matter is that 'playing' an MMORPG is not fun. Obtaining the mathematical power is what is fun. The only real exception is that it is not in all cases - it might be some or many - but I believe that it is too much regardless. I loved running around and performing fatalities on various enemies in Age of Conan, but that doesn't mean I enjoyed grinding when there were no quests around. As I was about to grind, I simply thought, "Hell no. I am not going to do something that I find boring in a game simply because of what my character gains."

It makes me wonder how successful the most popular of MMORPGs would be if they no longer rewarded its players with mathematical power. How many players would still play the genre solely for the fun factor? Something tells me: not that many.

LOL. You see, arena gear is a bonus. YOU dont have to grind. YOU dont have to stay near your computer 24/7.

Find out whats fun, and do it. Obviously its silly to make yourself work in MMO. Its a game, have fun.

Run some lowbies, it will give a nice feeling. Explore zones. Play BG -- for FUN. And as for spamming shadowbolts in dungeons. Well, then half the team is carrying you for you not to pay attention and just spam spells.

LOL. You see, arena gear is a bonus. YOU dont have to grind. YOU dont have to stay near your computer 24/7.

Find out whats fun, and do it. Obviously its silly to make yourself work in MMO. Its a game, have fun.

Run some lowbies, it will give a nice feeling. Explore zones. Play BG -- for FUN. And as for spamming shadowbolts in dungeons. Well, then half the team is carrying you for you not to pay attention and just spam spells.

Begemott

You are correct. Players are not required to grind in an MMORPG. The problem is that, if they don't, their characters will become quickly outdated. I know a lot about World of Warcraft - I can completely vouch for this. Casual players have casual gear. They will have a very difficult time getting into dungeons, they will (in many cases) be shunned by a server's elitists, and they will be absolutely destroyed in Arenas/Battlegrounds when they want to play them simply for "fun".

I actually started to feel bad for the casual players. They were horrible - their attempts to kill my character were completely laughable. Casual players are the most useless pieces of crap in an MMORPG. I could never see myself playing an MMORPG casually whilst having any fun.

Other than that, you are basically saying that running lowbies through dungeons isn't all that entertaining, but that I should do it anyways for a nice feeling. Secondly, it is impossible to "explore zones" once your character reaches the maximum level. The zones are empty; no reason to see them. As such, the vast majority of the gameworld is completley ignored, and any content that actually "matters" takes place in small, instanced areas (Arenas, Battlegrounds and Dungeons). That's why I didn't really understand people when they praise World of Warcraft for its large, seamless world. What exactly is the point of having such a world if no one plays in it? If they all just stand around a goblin in a tuxedo or by a meeting stone?

Lastly, that is what raiding in World of Warcraft is. It is spamming buttons. Watch this video from a Warlock PoV:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSNxDeyXmlo&eurl=http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=sunwell+warlock+pov&sitesearch=

I haven't seen it, but I know for a fact that all the Warlock will be doing the majority of the time is spamming Shadowbolts.

So don't try to talk to me about other things to do in World of Warcraft. I've tried them all. I even made a guild called Polymock and ran around constantly ganking on the Isle of Quel'danas in a desperate attempt just to have fun.

You know what the worst part about all of it is? I didn't even play the game that much.

[cut] TurtleMilk

Yea its true that you get outdated gear. As for them getting destroyed in BG is kind of unfair. General assumption is that geared players are skilled and casual dont know how to play well. I would consider myself casual player. I have a busy life, I dont play WoW 24/7. I would play a month, take a break, come back when Im bored, etc However, I knew how my spells worked and I had the instinct in battle to make the right desicion. Sure, most of the time geared>nongeared, but what can you do. Unless you have no life, you shouldnt focus so much on fake things.

Joining a casual guild will help. Getting into dungeons shouldnt be a problem if you stay reasonable and wont act all bad and try to join a high end raid with your blues or w/e.

Im not saying running lowies is JUST/ONLY for good feeling. Please reread the statement. I never cared for exploring every corner, that was just a suggestion seeing as some people do like finding secret/cool spots.

I'm a warlock. I was one in WoW original beta. I was a lock when the game began. I know that shadowbolts are used the most since they are the biggest DPS provider, but to just spam one spell is silly. As for the video. You showed me a boss. What else are you gonna use? It's only one target, and your mission is to inflict damage.

"So don't try to talk to me about other things to do in World of Warcraft. I've tried them all." I was just giving suggestions. I wont try and list every possible reason to play WoW.

I find your last line a lie. You tried everything in WoW, you tried them all, you know so much/a lot about it, and yet you've only played the game a little. You even bolded the 'a lot' part.

The main point is -- if you're making yourself grind or play the game when you're bored, its only your fault. You shouldnt log in to your account unless you know what your going to do.Begemott

There is no such thing as "skill" in World of Warcraft. Anyone who tries to say otherwise simply does not know what they're talking about. Below you will find plenty of credibility:

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Lightninghoof&n=Turtlemilk

Your response has degraded me to the point where I am almost too demoralized to respond. I can tell that you are a very casual player - and as such - you have no idea what you are talking about. Instead of arguing or debating with you, I would instead be explaining things to you. I don't want to have to do that.

I'll go ahead and show you an example just so you see what I mean.

Now, I've seen a lot of statements and excuses in the past, but the one you wrote here may surpass them all, "It was just a boss!" Why would the developers of a game make the fights that matter - the fights that give actual loot - be the most mindless, whilst making the fights that involve trash mobs more complex and exciting? Do you know why they are called trash mobs in the first place? Logic alone should have answered your question before you felt the need to type it.

As much as I wish it were otherwise, a Warlock in end-game raiding does little more than spam Shadowbolts. The worst part is that this mindless degree of repetition doesn't apply to just the Warlock.

I suppose you are ultimately correct when you state that a person who forces themself to grind even when they don't want to has no one to blame but themselves. Sure, you don't have to grind and worry about mathematical power - but grind and mathematical power is the very definition of MMORPGs in the first place.

Turtlemilk, how come you never come on Xfire?

EDIT: You're using the same arguments I used on you when you played WoW. Finally you see the light.

Turtlemilk, how come you never come on Xfire?

EDIT: You're using the same arguments I used on you when you played WoW. Finally you see the light.

GodLovesDead

Who are you?

And I'm always on Xfire.

EDIT: And yes, I finally do see the light.

LOL. You see, arena gear is a bonus. YOU dont have to grind. YOU dont have to stay near your computer 24/7.

Find out whats fun, and do it. Obviously its silly to make yourself work in MMO. Its a game, have fun.

Run some lowbies, it will give a nice feeling. Explore zones. Play BG -- for FUN. And as for spamming shadowbolts in dungeons. Well, then half the team is carrying you for you not to pay attention and just spam spells.

Begemott

I generally agree with Begemott. The 'problem' is that a lot of players work (as opposed to play) to win a game that cannot be won. So they grind, they farm they camp.. and still they don't win.. they become frustrated and unhappy.. and grind harder, farm longer.. and still doesn't win.

Ultimately I don't think MMOs really work well in the long term for people who can't (or won't) take a step back and decide if they enjoy just wasting some spare time in their virtual world of choice. If you feel your waiting time if your not doing what you'd consider the most effective activity, if you feel inadequate or like your 'falling behind' if you don't have the best gears / skills / whatever, MMOs might not be the genre for you, at least over the long term.

In addition to that, nothing lasts forever. I've played some MMOs (Mainly AC and SWG) for much longer than I've played any other computer game. But ultimately everything gets old. You need to be able to realize when it stops being fun and starts being a habit. When that happens its time to move on (or at least take a break).

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying you should keep playing. That's the one big lesson I learned from my first MMO.. when it stops being fun, don't log in. Don't get mad, don't rant on the forums don't spoil your own mood, instead do something else.

I know comparing video games to real life is often somewhat misplaced but nevertheless.. look at it as a sport. Most people play basketball out of enjoyment and as a social activity. There are some that dedicate their entire life to becomming the best basketball player they can possibly become. But just because all the other 95% of the player will never be able to compete with the top 5% and just because those 95% will never join the NBA dosent mean that there is anything wrong with player as long as your able to enjoy the game and the company you keep while playing.

[QUOTE="GodLovesDead"]

Turtlemilk, how come you never come on Xfire?

EDIT: You're using the same arguments I used on you when you played WoW. Finally you see the light.

TurtleMilk

Who are you?

And I'm always on Xfire.

EDIT: And yes, I finally do see the light.

I saw the light after I hit Grand Marshal rank, then BC came out and I lost interest. That game was a grindfest.

cut

TurtleMilk

There is definitely skill in World of Warcraft. The instincts, the decisions... I mean there just is. Thats why you only see bots running in circles farming. If it took nothing to play the whole game, surely there would have been bots that would do quests, pvp and all the other things. "No skill in WoW"... just wow. Go ahead and give me your definition of skill [in wow].

As for the boss arguement. You misunderstood, when I refered to just boss, I meant there is a single target, so there less to do other than trash mobs where you might use banish, or whatever else in terms of spells. I agree with you though, classes usually spam couple of specific spells and thats it (Disregard my comment about you in my first response). But its the same for other genres, like RTS, when your playing with a race, people come up with fantanstic ideas, but ultimately there are only 1 or 2 playstyles you perform because they are the most efficient.

So you skip most of my post only to point out the one silly thing I typed, the boss comment. More than half your post is about that... Ok.

Your armory link brings me back to the question -- you sure you only spent a little time on WoW?

Your last sentence. Ummm... what IS that? Yea grind is the one of the main things that define MMO. I agree with you there. But heres the problem though - You said people do quests which they find boring, you got your title through grinding and you didnt have fun.... Then its pretty simple and obvious, get a different game? I found quests refreshing and provided some backstory and made things interesting. If its just a mindless killing for you throughout the whole game, then again, get a different game.

Another thing that defines MMORPG is - SURPRISE - Massive Multiplayer Online. You can have so much fun with people when you play together. THATS where the fun is, and THATS why many people MMO's. And thats why Im sure a lot more people will stay than you think after companies remove "mathematical power".

[QUOTE="TurtleMilk"]

cut

Begemott

There is definitely skill in World of Warcraft. The instincts, the decisions... I mean there just is. Thats why you only see bots running in circles farming. If it took nothing to play the whole game, surely there would have been bots that would do quests, pvp and all the other things. "No skill in WoW"... just wow. Go ahead and give me your definition of skill [in wow].

Bots would be an example of why the game requires no skill. If a bot can do enough to level up while you're away, obviously the game is too easy.

Bots would be an example of why the game requires no skill. If a bot can do enough to level up while you're away, obviously the game is too easy.

GodLovesDead

You can use bots to farm or level. Obviously that doesnt take much in the way of brain power.

However, I challenge you to find me a bot that can clear a raid instance. Forget that, even a FIVE man instance. I challenge you to find a bot that can climb to the higher ranks of the arena system. WoW is a big game. Some parts take loads of skill and coordination....and some don't.

Also....you can add bots to any game...does that mean they require no skill? Do quake 3 bots mean quake 3 players have no skill?

[QUOTE="GodLovesDead"]

Bots would be an example of why the game requires no skill. If a bot can do enough to level up while you're away, obviously the game is too easy.

TeamR

You can use bots to farm or level. Obviously that doesnt take much in the way of brain power.

However, I challenge you to find me a bot that can clear a raid instance. Forget that, even a FIVE man instance. I challenge you to find a bot that can climb to the higher ranks of the arena system. WoW is a big game. Some parts take loads of skill and coordination....and some don't.

Also....you can add bots to any game...does that mean they require no skill? Do quake 3 bots mean quake 3 players have no skill?

The difference between Quake 3 bots and MMORPG bots is that Quake 3 bots are actually integrated into the game. MMORPG bots aren't. They aren't even injected into the game's memory. They just read what's going on and respond. A series of bots can EASILY clear 5 man instances. Bots can PvP too. By the way, raids don't consititute skill at all. The only thing raids test is your patience.

Im looking forward to mythos as i think it might break the grind and iv always loved diablo type gameplay. Look into it if you haven't.dudy80

Thats kind of ironic then, since Diablo is pretty much the pinnacle of grind, the pure, fun, mindless kind of grind.

[QUOTE="TurtleMilk"]

cut

Begemott

There is definitely skill in World of Warcraft. The instincts, the decisions... I mean there just is. Thats why you only see bots running in circles farming. If it took nothing to play the whole game, surely there would have been bots that would do quests, pvp and all the other things. "No skill in WoW"... just wow. Go ahead and give me your definition of skill [in wow].

As for the boss arguement. You misunderstood, when I refered to just boss, I meant there is a single target, so there less to do other than trash mobs where you might use banish, or whatever else in terms of spells. I agree with you though, classes usually spam couple of specific spells and thats it (Disregard my comment about you in my first response). But its the same for other genres, like RTS, when your playing with a race, people come up with fantanstic ideas, but ultimately there are only 1 or 2 playstyles you perform because they are the most efficient.

So you skip most of my post only to point out the one silly thing I typed, the boss comment. More than half your post is about that... Ok.

Your armory link brings me back to the question -- you sure you only spent a little time on WoW?

Your last sentence. Ummm... what IS that? Yea grind is the one of the main things that define MMO. I agree with you there. But heres the problem though - You said people do quests which they find boring, you got your title through grinding and you didnt have fun.... Then its pretty simple and obvious, get a different game? I found quests refreshing and provided some backstory and made things interesting. If its just a mindless killing for you throughout the whole game, then again, get a different game.

Another thing that defines MMORPG is - SURPRISE - Massive Multiplayer Online. You can have so much fun with people when you play together. THATS where the fun is, and THATS why many people MMO's. And thats why Im sure a lot more people will stay than you think after companies remove "mathematical power".

You are wrong. There is no such thing as "skill" in World of Warcraft. I'm a Gladiator - my rating went up to 2450 - I think I know more about it than you do (no offense). The primary thing that sets the players apart, besides gear, is the amount of experience they have. Experience tells me when I should use Death Coil - but it doesn't take any skill to do it.

A bot could very easily be far more capable than a person in clearing the most difficult of raid dungeons. The problem is that bots in MMORPGs are reactive instead of proactive.

I spent far more less time playing World of Warcraft than the vast majority of players who were in end-game raiding guilds. I chose PvP over PvE because it is far less time consuming. Although I was in my share of end-game raiding guilds, I despised being in such guilds because they were far more concerned about progression than having fun. There is nothing entertaining about constantly wiping on a new boss. When the players end up yelling to each other and causing a horrendous amount of drama, you know that they have crossed the line.

If World of Warcraft was not primarily based around grind, then the majority of players wouldn't be grinding. It's as simple as that.

In order to obtain PvP gear, for example, the players are required to constantly grind in Battlegrounds. In order to obtain PvE gear, for example, the players are required to constantly run through dungeons, spending time clearing pull after pull of useless trash mobs in order to fight the ocassional boss.

If you played the game long enough, you would be surprised as to just how many players are willing to whine and complain over the casuality that is World of Warcraft. Ever since Arena was released, and players started getting excellent gear through the ocassional 10 games per week for points, there was an endless amount of players saying, "I have to actually work for my gear. They should be working for their gear too."

Logic alone should be able to answer the majority of your questions. The vast majority of the players will participate in whatever will grant them progression, even if it includes doing boring tasks. When the developers released Daily Quests, for example, why was it that so many players flocked to accomplish them? Why do the players repeat the same 20 quests over, and over, and over again every single day? Because they find it fun and entertaining? Do you honestly believe that players would continue to complete the Daily Quests simply for the fun factor if they were no longer rewarded with any gold for doing so?

Sure, it's easy to go around pointing fingers and telling the people who grind without enjoying it to go get another game, but if that were to ever happen, then MMORPGs would become extinct.

The simple fact that you honestly believe MMORPGs such as World of Warcraft would be successful if they no longer revolved around mathematical power is laughable. I would love to see that come into effect, watching World of Warcraft spiral down into an endless pit of nothingness. Let's take all the quests in the game and have them no longer reward the players with anything - let's take all the raid bosses and have them drop no loot - let's take all the PvP and have it no longer reward Arena and Honor points - let's have everyone's character be the same level with the exact same immovable stats - then let's see World of Warcraft completely and undeniably demolish in an irreversable manner.

"Well, it doesn't revolve around mathematical power anymore, but we can just play it for fun, right? Don't you guys want to try killing that boss that we keep wiping on for fun? Don't you guys wanna do these Daily Quests for fun? Don't you guys want to clear all of these trash mobs for fun? Oh come on - don't you want to spend hours farming just for fun?"

The only thing that I found truly "fun" in World of Warcraft was raiding enemy cities. The problem is that barely any players ever do it. It is extremely difficult to get competent players who are willing to raid an enemy city. It's really fun to do it - but barely anyone does. I mean, it's really fun, so why don't people do it? I mean - if people play games for fun - and raiding cities is fun - why does it rarely occur? Surely it's not because it doesn't have a positive influence on progression?

Yeah, that's pretty much the epitome of bull!@#$.

1 You are wrong. There is no such thing as "skill" in World of Warcraft. I'm a Gladiator - my rating went up to 2450 - I think I know more about it than you do (no offense). The primary thing that sets the players apart, besides gear, is the amount of experience they have. Experience tells me when I should use Death Coil - but it doesn't take any skill to do it.

2 A bot could very easily be far more capable than a person in clearing the most difficult of raid dungeons. The problem is that bots in MMORPGs are reactive instead of proactive.

3 I spent far more less time playing World of Warcraft than the vast majority of players who were in end-game raiding guilds. I chose PvP over PvE because it is far less time consuming. Although I was in my share of end-game raiding guilds, I despised being in such guilds because they were far more concerned about progression than having fun. There is nothing entertaining about constantly wiping on a new boss. When the players end up yelling to each other and causing a horrendous amount of drama, you know that they have crossed the line.

4 If World of Warcraft was not primarily based around grind, then the majority of players wouldn't be grinding. It's as simple as that.

5 In order to obtain PvP gear, for example, the players are required to constantly grind in Battlegrounds. In order to obtain PvE gear, for example, the players are required to constantly run through dungeons, spending time clearing pull after pull of useless trash mobs in order to fight the ocassional boss.

6 If you played the game long enough, you would be surprised as to just how many players are willing to whine and complain over the casuality that is World of Warcraft. Ever since Arena was released, and players started getting excellent gear through the ocassional 10 games per week for points, there was an endless amount of players saying, "I have to actually work for my gear. They should be working for their gear too."

7 Logic alone should be able to answer the majority of your questions. The vast majority of the players will participate in whatever will grant them progression, even if it includes doing boring tasks. When the developers released Daily Quests, for example, why was it that so many players flocked to accomplish them? Why do the players repeat the same 20 quests over, and over, and over again every single day? Because they find it fun and entertaining? Do you honestly believe that players would continue to complete the Daily Quests simply for the fun factor if they were no longer rewarded with any gold for doing so?

8 Sure, it's easy to go around pointing fingers and telling the people who grind without enjoying it to go get another game, but if that were to ever happen, then MMORPGs would become extinct.

9 The simple fact that you honestly believe MMORPGs such as World of Warcraft would be successful if they no longer revolved around mathematical power is laughable. I would love to see that come into effect, watching World of Warcraft spiral down into an endless pit of nothingness. Let's take all the quests in the game and have them no longer reward the players with anything - let's take all the raid bosses and have them drop no loot - let's take all the PvP and have it no longer reward Arena and Honor points - let's have everyone's character be the same level with the exact same immovable stats - then let's see World of Warcraft completely and undeniably demolish in an irreversable manner.

10 "Well, it doesn't revolve around mathematical power anymore, but we can just play it for fun, right? Don't you guys want to try killing that boss that we keep wiping on for fun? Don't you guys wanna do these Daily Quests for fun? Don't you guys want to clear all of these trash mobs for fun? Oh come on - don't you want to spend hours farming just for fun?"

11 The only thing that I found truly "fun" in World of Warcraft was raiding enemy cities. The problem is that barely any players ever do it. It is extremely difficult to get competent players who are willing to raid an enemy city. It's really fun to do it - but barely anyone does. I mean, it's really fun, so why don't people do it? I mean - if people play games for fun - and raiding cities is fun - why does it rarely occur? Surely it's not because it doesn't have a positive influence on progression?

Yeah, that's pretty much the epitome of bull!@#$.

TurtleMilk

Why do you have to write so much. I dont want to start writing essays back to respond to you.

Ok, heres a list, to make it easier and shorter. :D

First Paragraph - Fine, there is no skill in WoW.

Your gear/rating - You already posted link/armory, you're better, we get it.

Third Paragraph - Nicely said. Agreed.

Fourth - MMOs as you said are based around grind. If you dont like the grind you know what you should do. But heres a challenge, invent a way for people to progress without grind. If you can, well then make a game with such design and make millions.

Fith - This kind brings two points. One is in Fourth Paragraph response, where you need to invent a new way to progress in MMOs. Another is that you make it seem that every player MUST have the best PvE and PvP gear, and work their way through countless dungeons and BGs. I personally only ran through some instances 1 or 2 times max and that was just to get the quests done and enjoy the scenery.

Sixth - People will whine just about anything. If someone does more than the other, such person deserves an advantage.

Seventh - Oh comon. Its common sense that there are hardcore players in the game that dont really do much during their dayh except sit and play the game. Dont assume everyone in the game does that.

Eighth - It comes down to "Do you think all you do in the game is grind?", then thats the sign to leave the game. There are plenty of people who do their work for progression (quests etc) but mainly play for fun and dont need to replay the same dungeon for better stuff.

Nineth/Tenth - I misunderstood what you meant by mathematical powers. Obviously its stupid to talk about removing levels and all that stuff. You do get nothing so why even start discussing that.

Eleventh - Yes. That was one of the most fun things I did in video games. But its like this. Hardcore people are left doing BG/Arena where they get points and rewards for their grind. The casual might want to try raiding cities, but then they get killed by the geared/arena players standing around in the main city.

[QUOTE="TurtleMilk"]

1 You are wrong. There is no such thing as "skill" in World of Warcraft. I'm a Gladiator - my rating went up to 2450 - I think I know more about it than you do (no offense). The primary thing that sets the players apart, besides gear, is the amount of experience they have. Experience tells me when I should use Death Coil - but it doesn't take any skill to do it.

2 A bot could very easily be far more capable than a person in clearing the most difficult of raid dungeons. The problem is that bots in MMORPGs are reactive instead of proactive.

3 I spent far more less time playing World of Warcraft than the vast majority of players who were in end-game raiding guilds. I chose PvP over PvE because it is far less time consuming. Although I was in my share of end-game raiding guilds, I despised being in such guilds because they were far more concerned about progression than having fun. There is nothing entertaining about constantly wiping on a new boss. When the players end up yelling to each other and causing a horrendous amount of drama, you know that they have crossed the line.

4 If World of Warcraft was not primarily based around grind, then the majority of players wouldn't be grinding. It's as simple as that.

5 In order to obtain PvP gear, for example, the players are required to constantly grind in Battlegrounds. In order to obtain PvE gear, for example, the players are required to constantly run through dungeons, spending time clearing pull after pull of useless trash mobs in order to fight the ocassional boss.

6 If you played the game long enough, you would be surprised as to just how many players are willing to whine and complain over the casuality that is World of Warcraft. Ever since Arena was released, and players started getting excellent gear through the ocassional 10 games per week for points, there was an endless amount of players saying, "I have to actually work for my gear. They should be working for their gear too."

7 Logic alone should be able to answer the majority of your questions. The vast majority of the players will participate in whatever will grant them progression, even if it includes doing boring tasks. When the developers released Daily Quests, for example, why was it that so many players flocked to accomplish them? Why do the players repeat the same 20 quests over, and over, and over again every single day? Because they find it fun and entertaining? Do you honestly believe that players would continue to complete the Daily Quests simply for the fun factor if they were no longer rewarded with any gold for doing so?

8 Sure, it's easy to go around pointing fingers and telling the people who grind without enjoying it to go get another game, but if that were to ever happen, then MMORPGs would become extinct.

9 The simple fact that you honestly believe MMORPGs such as World of Warcraft would be successful if they no longer revolved around mathematical power is laughable. I would love to see that come into effect, watching World of Warcraft spiral down into an endless pit of nothingness. Let's take all the quests in the game and have them no longer reward the players with anything - let's take all the raid bosses and have them drop no loot - let's take all the PvP and have it no longer reward Arena and Honor points - let's have everyone's character be the same level with the exact same immovable stats - then let's see World of Warcraft completely and undeniably demolish in an irreversable manner.

10 "Well, it doesn't revolve around mathematical power anymore, but we can just play it for fun, right? Don't you guys want to try killing that boss that we keep wiping on for fun? Don't you guys wanna do these Daily Quests for fun? Don't you guys want to clear all of these trash mobs for fun? Oh come on - don't you want to spend hours farming just for fun?"

11 The only thing that I found truly "fun" in World of Warcraft was raiding enemy cities. The problem is that barely any players ever do it. It is extremely difficult to get competent players who are willing to raid an enemy city. It's really fun to do it - but barely anyone does. I mean, it's really fun, so why don't people do it? I mean - if people play games for fun - and raiding cities is fun - why does it rarely occur? Surely it's not because it doesn't have a positive influence on progression?

Yeah, that's pretty much the epitome of bull!@#$.

Begemott

Why do you have to write so much. I dont want to start writing essays back to respond to you.

Ok, heres a list, to make it easier and shorter. :D

First Paragraph - Fine, there is no skill in WoW.

Your gear/rating - You already posted link/armory, you're better, we get it.

Third Paragraph - Nicely said. Agreed.

Fourth - MMOs as you said are based around grind. If you dont like the grind you know what you should do. But heres a challenge, invent a way for people to progress without grind. If you can, well then make a game with such design and make millions.

Fith - This kind brings two points. One is in Fourth Paragraph response, where you need to invent a new way to progress in MMOs. Another is that you make it seem that every player MUST have the best PvE and PvP gear, and work their way through countless dungeons and BGs. I personally only ran through some instances 1 or 2 times max and that was just to get the quests done and enjoy the scenery.

Sixth - People will whine just about anything. If someone does more than the other, such person deserves an advantage.

Seventh - Oh comon. Its common sense that there are hardcore players in the game that dont really do much during their dayh except sit and play the game. Dont assume everyone in the game does that.

Eighth - It comes down to "Do you think all you do in the game is grind?", then thats the sign to leave the game. There are plenty of people who do their work for progression (quests etc) but mainly play for fun and dont need to replay the same dungeon for better stuff.

Nineth/Tenth - I misunderstood what you meant by mathematical powers. Obviously its stupid to talk about removing levels and all that stuff. You do get nothing so why even start discussing that.

Eleventh - Yes. That was one of the most fun things I did in video games. But its like this. Hardcore people are left doing BG/Arena where they get points and rewards for their grind. The casual might want to try raiding cities, but then they get killed by the geared/arena players standing around in the main city.

The closest Online RPG I've experienced in which hardcore players can still be hardcore without putting the casual players at such a huge disadvantage is Guild Wars. Unfortunately, Guild Wars isn't an MMORPG, and as such, is on a very small scale.

I'm planning to get (and greatly enjoy) Diablo III once it's released. Although the entire game is about grind, there's something about the Diablo series - I don't know - I just enjoy killing dozens and dozens of enemies. It never gets boring to me.

Turtle, I read your posts and you do bring up some very valid points. But heres the thing: Not everyone plays MMOs for the same reason. Not everyone wants to endlessly grind for loot. Not everyone wants to get the upper echelons of PvP ratings. Not everyone cares about arena season gear. And consequently, not everyone does those things.

Sure, it may look that way when you are surrounded by those types of players on a constant basis. But the fact is, it is up to the individual player to decide what they want to do at any given time. If you dont feel like doing Kara raids for six months to get your whole set, then dont. Nobody is making you. Same with grinding honor and marks. If you dont want to do it, then dont. You do raise some very valid concerns, and the things you talked about in your posts are the reason why I feel that WoW now isnt as good as it was when it first launched.

It really sounds to me like you just need a break from WoW, and probably MMOs in general. Take a couple of months, buy some cheap games from gogamer, or just go out and do things away from your PC. Youll feel better when its over. Dont worry about your character being outdated when you get back, thats something that you can fix yourself, and in the end really doesnt matter much anyway.

I have played a few MMOs that were really just fun, but they are few and far between; namely for me, Star Wars Galaxy and City of Heroes. The next one that I'm looking forward to is Champions online as City of Heroes was the most fun MMO that I've played.

Until recently it didn't have much of that grinding for the sake of getting this one particular item that many other games have. Hopefully Champions Online makes that even better.