xbox 360, aliasing

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#1 Posted by P-E (12 posts) -

Hi,

I've got a problem with my new LCD Full HD TV ( Samsung LN46A530) when I play in 1080p (HDMI), i've got a lot of aliasing with almost every games. Is there any configuration that I can put on or should I drop to 720p resolution? I'm playing on a X-box 360. Thanks

#2 Posted by JohnD212 (621 posts) -
There are no settings that you're referring to....what you're seeing is a 720p (or possibly less) game being run at 1080p. Its like when you run standard tv over a LCD HD Tv....it usually looks like crap...cause now you can see all the flaws...and in this case...you're seeing all the flaws in a 720p game cause you're running it at a much higher resolution.You also might notice it more if you're setting too close to the screen or it could also be settings on your tv that make it more noticeable.
#3 Posted by Aaron89 (3377 posts) -

This is an issue I've tried to solve for months now, and have yet to receive a solid answer from anyone. Apparently, only a handful of people are experiencing this problem, including both you and myself. It also doesn't matter which TV you have, since I've come across those with Samsung's and Vizio's (among a few others) having identical problems.

My tv is the Vizio 32" VX32L (@ 720p via component), and has this issue. A quick Google search shows that others are having trouble as well, such as here. Apparently, there's nothing you can do. I've tried different cabling (VGA), but have yet to try a different console with the TV or a different TV with the console. However, there's an interesting story here, which describes a user only having issues after he got his broken Xbox 360 replaced, indicating a console problem. If my console is replaced, I'm curious to see if anything changes. If you're able to try any tests with the console or TV, let me know the results, because I'm in the same situation.

In my findings so far, it doesn't seem to be the TV, or cable. The Vizio is perfectly capable of displaying crisp, smooth lines, but it gets these "jaggies" in certain games (in excess), like Halo 3 or PGR 3. Gears of War still looks quite good, although it's still apparent. I've gone to friends homes, and can assure you this isn't how the games are supposed to look. Halo 3 on a monitor or Sony Bravia (forget which model) is incredibly crisp, something my TV fails to show.

Good luck in finding answers.

#4 Posted by bumsoil (924 posts) -
aight, let a geek answer this (lol, the shirt i am wearing says geek on it), but really...... the xbox 360 is not that powerful, and most games are rendered at 720p or below. halo 3 is in 640p (1152x640p) when this is displayed over a 1080p tv, the console is just taking multiple pixels and combining them, thus creating giant jaggies, now if these games used AA (anti-aliasing) this would not be as apparent. but like i said before, the 360 is not really that powerful, no console right now is. so get an good pc and enable AA :D
#5 Posted by bumsoil (924 posts) -
also, it is not just upscaleing that causes this, people see it even at the native resolution. not just a handful of people have it, your avrage-joe wont care or notice but everyone has the same problem, the console games just don't use AA very often. like i said GET A GOOD PC AND ENABLE AA AT A EVEN HIGHER RESOLUTION!!
#6 Posted by cLAssic_BLUE (599 posts) -
seriously pgr3 has a redicoulous amount of jaggies. in 3rd person view esp.
#7 Posted by Aaron89 (3377 posts) -

also, it is not just upscaleing that causes this, people see it even at the native resolution. not just a handful of people have it, your avrage-joe wont care or notice but everyone has the same problem, the console games just don't use AA very often. like i said GET A GOOD PC AND ENABLE AA AT A EVEN HIGHER RESOLUTION!!
bumsoil

I appreciate the response, but it has to be completely wrong. There's no way that explanation can work when I see, with my own eyes, Halo 3 (the game of choice for this discussion) looking horrible on one set, and amazingly crisp and clear on another.

While it should look like this:

Good

...it looks like this (right-click to view full image):

Bad

The latter picture was actually take from myself, with a camera phone (and posted on the AVS Forum). It's not zoomed in at all, and believe it or not, actually looks worse in person (giving a moving "staircase effect" on each linear line). The first image is what another user is experiencing, a much more crisp image, and what the game should look like on the same series of TV.

Honestly, I don't think any one person can explain this. In relation to the replaced console story I posted previously, there's a theory that Microsoft limits or disables completely AA (Anti-Aliasing) to reduce the heat within older consoles. Probably not true ... but hey, it's a theory.

#8 Posted by bumsoil (924 posts) -

"there's a theory that Microsoft limits or disables completely AA (Anti-Aliasing) to reduce the heat within older consoles." no

the game just does not have AA, they had to sacrifice AA for amassing lighting.i have a 1080p tv in my room and i have giant jaggies. i have the same problem in most xbox 360 games too and i mostly play halo 3. just look at how big the pixels are that are being rendered! there is nothing you can do about it........ you just have a very clear tv (good thing lol)

PS i am never wrong, except for that time i thought i had made a mistake JK

if you still think i am wrong, wich i am not, look at these links:

http://www.joystiq.com/2007/10/01/bungie-halo-3-resolution-cut-for-hdr-lighting/

http://www.xbox360fanboy.com/2007/09/28/halo-3-is-only-running-at-640p/

http://www.gamegrep.com/news/5430-halo_3_runs_640p_native_resolution/

http://www.gamerawr.com/2007/09/28/halo-3-only-runs-at-640p/

#9 Posted by Boxcutters (850 posts) -
Don't blame the Tv, the hdtv just reveals flaws that games hide.
#11 Posted by lockjaw333 (1741 posts) -
Aaron- Have you looked into trying a VGA cable? There are a few reasons to my knowledge that you'd be getting poor picture quality such as the picture you posted. First and foremost, make sure you're running at your TV's native resolution. Your TV has a native resolution of 1366x768 (quite common for newer LCDs), which isn't exactly 720p (1280x720). I experience issues with my LCD which has the same native resolution when trying to output my Xbox 360 in 720p using component and HDMI. I would try using a VGA cable (get the standard Microsoft one, some of the 3rd party ones are trash). With the VGA, you can select 1360x768, which is just about the native resolution of your set. The "jaggies" you are seeing are most likely artifacts from scaling of the signal from 1280x720 to your TV's native resolution (since an LCD will ALWAYS display in its native resolution, it will ALWAYS perform this conversion if the signal does not mirror its native res.). The quality of the scaler differs by TV, and can even be worse on certain inputs than others on the same TV. Its a strange thing, but its real. Also, many people see "jaggies" when viewing HD content because their Sharpness setting on their TV is too high. Sharpness is artificial, and most videophiles will recommend that you turn it to 0 as its not needed for HD content. In reality, most TV's have a point when if the Sharpness is set low enough, things will start to get blurry. Try to find an optimal setting, but I can probably assure you that your TV's default Sharpness setting is too high. In addition, TVs that have some sort of picture enhancement, such as Samsung's DNIE, can experience more artifacts and "jaggies" as a result. If possible, turn those types of options off. The more likely scenario is the scaling issue. What's interesting is this: I have an Elite, but I use VGA because the picture quality is so poor using HDMI and component at 720p. In addition, I don't use 1360x768 with VGA (my TV's native resolution), I actually use 1280x720. The reason I do this is that the colors are much more vibrant at this resolution, and there seemed to be a small amount of horizontal stretching in 1360x768. This leads me to believe that the scaler in the Xbox 360 isn't too adept at scaling the output beyond it's standard 720p either. So you have your TV and your Xbox 360 possibly working together to give you those "jaggies" and artifacts. I know this is long, but hopefully it helps. I would seriously recommend trying a VGA cable. It worked wonders for me. Halo 3 looks identical to the first picture you posted for me, and it looked identical to the second picture you posted before when using HDMI. And don't listen to Bumsoil. While what you're saying is valid, as the Xbox 360 has no real anti-aliasing mechanism in it's video card architecture, its not the reason some games look poor on certain TVs, and looked crisp and clean on others. And Halo 3 running at 640p is an overexaggerated misnomer, because when you say "runs", that does now mean that the 360 is outputting the game at 640p, its that the game was rendered in 640, which is very different, and is actually true of more games than you think. Nevertheless, it has no bearing on why Aaron's picture quality is poor.
#12 Posted by bumsoil (924 posts) -

Aaron- Have you looked into trying a VGA cable? There are a few reasons to my knowledge that you'd be getting poor picture quality such as the picture you posted. First and foremost, make sure you're running at your TV's native resolution. Your TV has a native resolution of 1366x768 (quite common for newer LCDs), which isn't exactly 720p (1280x720). I experience issues with my LCD which has the same native resolution when trying to output my Xbox 360 in 720p using component and HDMI. I would try using a VGA cable (get the standard Microsoft one, some of the 3rd party ones are trash). With the VGA, you can select 1360x768, which is just about the native resolution of your set. The "jaggies" you are seeing are most likely artifacts from scaling of the signal from 1280x720 to your TV's native resolution (since an LCD will ALWAYS display in its native resolution, it will ALWAYS perform this conversion if the signal does not mirror its native res.). The quality of the scaler differs by TV, and can even be worse on certain inputs than others on the same TV. Its a strange thing, but its real. Also, many people see "jaggies" when viewing HD content because their Sharpness setting on their TV is too high. Sharpness is artificial, and most videophiles will recommend that you turn it to 0 as its not needed for HD content. In reality, most TV's have a point when if the Sharpness is set low enough, things will start to get blurry. Try to find an optimal setting, but I can probably assure you that your TV's default Sharpness setting is too high. In addition, TVs that have some sort of picture enhancement, such as Samsung's DNIE, can experience more artifacts and "jaggies" as a result. If possible, turn those types of options off. The more likely scenario is the scaling issue. What's interesting is this: I have an Elite, but I use VGA because the picture quality is so poor using HDMI and component at 720p. In addition, I don't use 1360x768 with VGA (my TV's native resolution), I actually use 1280x720. The reason I do this is that the colors are much more vibrant at this resolution, and there seemed to be a small amount of horizontal stretching in 1360x768. This leads me to believe that the scaler in the Xbox 360 isn't too adept at scaling the output beyond it's standard 720p either. So you have your TV and your Xbox 360 possibly working together to give you those "jaggies" and artifacts. I know this is long, but hopefully it helps. I would seriously recommend trying a VGA cable. It worked wonders for me. Halo 3 looks identical to the first picture you posted for me, and it looked identical to the second picture you posted before when using HDMI. And don't listen to Bumsoil. While what you're saying is valid, as the Xbox 360 has no real anti-aliasing mechanism in it's video card architecture, its not the reason some games look poor on certain TVs, and looked crisp and clean on others. And Halo 3 running at 640p is an overexaggerated misnomer, because when you say "runs", that does now mean that the 360 is outputting the game at 640p, its that the game was rendered in 640, which is very different, and is actually true of more games than you think. Nevertheless, it has no bearing on why Aaron's picture quality is poor.lockjaw333
dont listen to me? the game has no AA, that's why he see's jaggies, look at cod 4 (if you have it) that game has 4x AA. it is not artifacts, everyone has it, everyone i know with a HDTV has jaggies on that game.

EDIT: i use 1080p in 1:1 with my 1920x1200 monitor and i have tested 720p in 1:1 they both have jaggies.

#13 Posted by SirExcremento (2 posts) -
Yes microsoft disabled the antialiasing on my xbox too i remember having my xbox looking perfect and then i got the 3ROD so i called support and they took my xbox for a repair when i got it back it looked terrible JAGGIES EVERYWHERE in games like COD 4, COD WAW, DEAD RISING 1 AND 2, BIOSHOCK 1 AND 2 every game i played looks jagged. IT'S NOT THE TV i have 2 tvs and both of them look jagged and this happened since i got back my xbox from repair cause i had heating problems...
#14 Posted by SirExcremento (2 posts) -
Also i have an old console bought it in 2006 and i got the 3ROD like 3 times don't tell me "THE GAMES DON'T HAVE AA" you are saying that all the games i played don't have AA???
#15 Posted by godzillavskong (7891 posts) -

[QUOTE="bumsoil"]also, it is not just upscaleing that causes this, people see it even at the native resolution. not just a handful of people have it, your avrage-joe wont care or notice but everyone has the same problem, the console games just don't use AA very often. like i said GET A GOOD PC AND ENABLE AA AT A EVEN HIGHER RESOLUTION!!
Aaron89

I appreciate the response, but it has to be completely wrong. There's no way that explanation can work when I see, with my own eyes, Halo 3 (the game of choice for this discussion) looking horrible on one set, and amazingly crisp and clear on another.

While it should look like this:

Good

...it looks like this (right-click to view full image):

Bad

The latter picture was actually take from myself, with a camera phone (and posted on the AVS Forum). It's not zoomed in at all, and believe it or not, actually looks worse in person (giving a moving "staircase effect" on each linear line). The first image is what another user is experiencing, a much more crisp image, and what the game should look like on the same series of TV.

Honestly, I don't think any one person can explain this. In relation to the replaced console story I posted previously, there's a theory that Microsoft limits or disables completely AA (Anti-Aliasing) to reduce the heat within older consoles. Probably not true ... but hey, it's a theory.

Yeah, if the 360 was so inferior, or incapable of the games looking as crisp as the PS3 when ran @ 1080p, why don't they look as bad on your friends Bravia?@P.E,Is your tv a high end Samsung, or what model is it?I have no jaggies on either my 360, or my PS3, and hopefully I never will. I have a mid range Toshiba 120hz 55in 1080p LCD, and a 46in 1080p Bravia LCD in my bedroom, which neither have demonstrated this problem. I'm not so sure about Vizio,but I thought Samsung was a solid reputable brand, and the 32in 720p Samsung LCD that's in my son's room looks fine when he plays his 360. Although I haven't watched him play it for a extended amount of time to see any jaggies.So, bumsoil may be right, you either have a extremely crisp tv,which shows a tremendous amount of detail, and revealing the flaws that I'm not seeing, or there is something wrong with your set.

#16 Posted by godzillavskong (7891 posts) -
Aaron- Have you looked into trying a VGA cable? There are a few reasons to my knowledge that you'd be getting poor picture quality such as the picture you posted. First and foremost, make sure you're running at your TV's native resolution. Your TV has a native resolution of 1366x768 (quite common for newer LCDs), which isn't exactly 720p (1280x720). I experience issues with my LCD which has the same native resolution when trying to output my Xbox 360 in 720p using component and HDMI. I would try using a VGA cable (get the standard Microsoft one, some of the 3rd party ones are trash). With the VGA, you can select 1360x768, which is just about the native resolution of your set. The "jaggies" you are seeing are most likely artifacts from scaling of the signal from 1280x720 to your TV's native resolution (since an LCD will ALWAYS display in its native resolution, it will ALWAYS perform this conversion if the signal does not mirror its native res.). The quality of the scaler differs by TV, and can even be worse on certain inputs than others on the same TV. Its a strange thing, but its real. Also, many people see "jaggies" when viewing HD content because their Sharpness setting on their TV is too high. Sharpness is artificial, and most videophiles will recommend that you turn it to 0 as its not needed for HD content. In reality, most TV's have a point when if the Sharpness is set low enough, things will start to get blurry. Try to find an optimal setting, but I can probably assure you that your TV's default Sharpness setting is too high. In addition, TVs that have some sort of picture enhancement, such as Samsung's DNIE, can experience more artifacts and "jaggies" as a result. If possible, turn those types of options off. The more likely scenario is the scaling issue. What's interesting is this: I have an Elite, but I use VGA because the picture quality is so poor using HDMI and component at 720p. In addition, I don't use 1360x768 with VGA (my TV's native resolution), I actually use 1280x720. The reason I do this is that the colors are much more vibrant at this resolution, and there seemed to be a small amount of horizontal stretching in 1360x768. This leads me to believe that the scaler in the Xbox 360 isn't too adept at scaling the output beyond it's standard 720p either. So you have your TV and your Xbox 360 possibly working together to give you those "jaggies" and artifacts. I know this is long, but hopefully it helps. I would seriously recommend trying a VGA cable. It worked wonders for me. Halo 3 looks identical to the first picture you posted for me, and it looked identical to the second picture you posted before when using HDMI. And don't listen to Bumsoil. While what you're saying is valid, as the Xbox 360 has no real anti-aliasing mechanism in it's video card architecture, its not the reason some games look poor on certain TVs, and looked crisp and clean on others. And Halo 3 running at 640p is an overexaggerated misnomer, because when you say "runs", that does now mean that the 360 is outputting the game at 640p, its that the game was rendered in 640, which is very different, and is actually true of more games than you think. Nevertheless, it has no bearing on why Aaron's picture quality is poor.lockjaw333
Wow. I like the knowledge you just spit, especially about the sharpness settings. I'm about to turn mine down right now! I have mine set a little high, and honestly I have never noticed it get any crisper when increasing the settings anyways. Good info bro.
#17 Posted by godzillavskong (7891 posts) -
Aaron- Have you looked into trying a VGA cable? There are a few reasons to my knowledge that you'd be getting poor picture quality such as the picture you posted. First and foremost, make sure you're running at your TV's native resolution. Your TV has a native resolution of 1366x768 (quite common for newer LCDs), which isn't exactly 720p (1280x720). I experience issues with my LCD which has the same native resolution when trying to output my Xbox 360 in 720p using component and HDMI. I would try using a VGA cable (get the standard Microsoft one, some of the 3rd party ones are trash). With the VGA, you can select 1360x768, which is just about the native resolution of your set. The "jaggies" you are seeing are most likely artifacts from scaling of the signal from 1280x720 to your TV's native resolution (since an LCD will ALWAYS display in its native resolution, it will ALWAYS perform this conversion if the signal does not mirror its native res.). The quality of the scaler differs by TV, and can even be worse on certain inputs than others on the same TV. Its a strange thing, but its real. Also, many people see "jaggies" when viewing HD content because their Sharpness setting on their TV is too high. Sharpness is artificial, and most videophiles will recommend that you turn it to 0 as its not needed for HD content. In reality, most TV's have a point when if the Sharpness is set low enough, things will start to get blurry. Try to find an optimal setting, but I can probably assure you that your TV's default Sharpness setting is too high. In addition, TVs that have some sort of picture enhancement, such as Samsung's DNIE, can experience more artifacts and "jaggies" as a result. If possible, turn those types of options off. The more likely scenario is the scaling issue. What's interesting is this: I have an Elite, but I use VGA because the picture quality is so poor using HDMI and component at 720p. In addition, I don't use 1360x768 with VGA (my TV's native resolution), I actually use 1280x720. The reason I do this is that the colors are much more vibrant at this resolution, and there seemed to be a small amount of horizontal stretching in 1360x768. This leads me to believe that the scaler in the Xbox 360 isn't too adept at scaling the output beyond it's standard 720p either. So you have your TV and your Xbox 360 possibly working together to give you those "jaggies" and artifacts. I know this is long, but hopefully it helps. I would seriously recommend trying a VGA cable. It worked wonders for me. Halo 3 looks identical to the first picture you posted for me, and it looked identical to the second picture you posted before when using HDMI. And don't listen to Bumsoil. While what you're saying is valid, as the Xbox 360 has no real anti-aliasing mechanism in it's video card architecture, its not the reason some games look poor on certain TVs, and looked crisp and clean on others. And Halo 3 running at 640p is an overexaggerated misnomer, because when you say "runs", that does now mean that the 360 is outputting the game at 640p, its that the game was rendered in 640, which is very different, and is actually true of more games than you think. Nevertheless, it has no bearing on why Aaron's picture quality is poor.lockjaw333
About that VGA adapter for the 360, I have it, and I let my son use it on his 360 a while back on my 26in LG cpu monitor, and was interested to know if cranking the resolution up on the 360 might cause it to RROD quicker? I've noticed when it was cranked up that the 360 got hot pretty quick. I don't have it hooked up anymore, since he has the 32in Samsung in his room now, but i'm just curious. I also agree though,about the quality of the VGA adapter, and how crisp it makes the image look!
#18 Posted by SPBoss (3630 posts) -

Ultimate Solution: Build a gaming PC

And no it isn't extremely expensive, a normal pc costs £300, my pc cost me £500.

For £500 today you can max out every game with at least 4aa, (most of my games run above 8aa)

I play on a 50inch lcd at 1080p, i sit very close to the screen.. yet i see no jaggies. I sold my xbox and ps3 cause 720p on a 50inch gives you a terrible picture, you wont regret my advice ;)

#19 Posted by Gixzr (8 posts) -

Yea Forza 4 on my new (Vizio M401i-A3 SMART HDTV) has jaggies (not bad at all) mostly in the turns. The response time / lag is 0, nill, nada which is why i purchased this tv. The picture is amazingly bright which helps & hurts for the jagged lines. Thanks to "lockjaw" i'm going to try and tone down the sharpness & other options that might help to "dilute" this problem.

How about Xbox 1 anyone know if it produces jaggies as well as the 360??

#20 Posted by MonsieurX (29966 posts) -

@Gixzr said:

Yea Forza 4 on my new (Vizio M401i-A3 SMART HDTV) has jaggies (not bad at all) mostly in the turns. The response time / lag is 0, nill, nada which is why i purchased this tv. The picture is amazingly bright which helps & hurts for the jagged lines. Thanks to "lockjaw" i'm going to try and tone down the sharpness & other options that might help to "dilute" this problem.

How about Xbox 1 anyone know if it produces jaggies as well as the 360??

...3 years ago,this thread was born