PvP: First Person Shooters vs. MMORPGs.

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#1 Posted by Skullheart (2054 posts) -

This thread will no doubt be completely opinionated, and may have arguments later. But I must start it anyway. What do you think takes more skill, Player vs. Player wise? First Person Shooters, or MMORPGs? I used to think FPS games did, but now (with mixed feelings), it seems like for every online shooter, the multiplayer is WAY dumbed down to the point where anyone can play and be good at it. That's not skill if anyone can do it. What game specifically? Probably the Call of Duty series online. I can play single player on the highest difficulty on all of the games if I truly wished, and beat them all. But when I go into multiplayer, it seems like I die very very fast when someone shoots me. Where's the skill in spraying your gun and killing them in one or two hits (which might I add that the MP44 almost takes entirely no skill to use, and it's an aimbot in german gun form).

All I know is, I can hit my targets and aim much much more precisely in any shooter's single player than multiplayer...like the game's multiplayer is dumbed down, or ruined with patches, or something happens that completely throws my aim off and gives other players advantages they shouldn't have in the first place unless they have skill and have been practicing forever. I don't believe online games should be for everyone. I believe if someone practices for months and months on end, he shouldn't be able to be killed by a stupid mindless lamen to the game (lucky shot or not).

MMORPGs however...are completely different. Since I haven't really gotten into anything else (and stuck with it), I'll use World of Warcraft as an example. I decided I was going to make a druid one day. In short, I got her to 60 and left her until the expansion came out. Then, I went into the feral tree and got some decently good gear (but not amazing gear), and then went to the PvP arenas. I completely dominated 90% of my arena battles with random noobs teamed with me with decent gear.

So I ask myself...

Why do I do this well in an MMORPG, than a first person shooter, which is my undoubted specialty? I personally think it's because, like I said, first person shooters which are online, are way dumbed down to the point where anyone can kill you...anyone can be the best! Yay! In the end, I think online shooters are just point-and-click and kill and do not require very much skill at all. It requires a little skill (and computer hardware), but not the same amount of skill that an MMORPG requires. I believe an MMORPG's PvP system invovles a little something I like to call strategy...not just, run-and-gun-lawl-spray-pray.

How do you feel about it? Do you believe FPS takes more skill, and why? Or is it the other way around? Explain your reasoning.

#3 Posted by pinneyapple (5566 posts) -
FPS for sure.
#4 Posted by Skullheart (2054 posts) -
Why.
#5 Posted by Crucifier (7195 posts) -

Why.Skullheart
cause it takes skill as to opposed to just spamming a macro or a certain button combo.

EDIT: besides, with an mmo, its who has the best gear that wins

#6 Posted by sircyrus (6358 posts) -

FPS.Why?

EDIT: besides, with an mmo, its who has the best gear that winsCrucifier
That's it right there.

FPS games require instant reactions and good hand-eye coordination. MMO's require hundreds of hours invested to have superior gear/stats/levels.

The only MMO I can think of off the top of my head that actually required skill to PvP in would have been oldschool Ultima Online. Stats and equipment didn't matter in that game. It was about timing your attacks. If you played it smart you could be a naked fencer with a regular dagger and whoop a player decked out in plate gear with magic weapon/shield. Since you could cap skills in a matter of hours/days there was no grind to speak of.

#7 Posted by Skullheart (2054 posts) -

[QUOTE="Skullheart"]Why.Crucifier

cause it takes skill as to opposed to just spamming a macro or a certain button combo.

EDIT: besides, with an mmo, its who has the best gear that wins

Gear, in the long run, doesn't do much. It's the skill and strategy that come out on top (edit: besides, any good MMORPG won't have you being completely gear dependant. Warhammer Online won't be like that). Besides, MMORPGs take full advantage of team-based game play. In most first person shooters (or *all* that I've played save Halo 2 in a few clan matches), people just run-and-gun and suck. That's probably no different from World of Warcraft's battleground system. No matter...Warhammer Online won't let me down.

I'm still waiting for a good FPS to play online, that requires the utmost skill to play instead of noobish spraying. Infinity Ward depressed me with the release of Call of Duty 2. Huge letdown, so I'm not looking forward to Call of Duty 4. Instead, Crysis looks better. But who knows, maybe Infinity will come through in the end. I'm just sick of the FPS' out now.

#8 Posted by GodLovesDead (9752 posts) -

Crucifier hit the point on the head. It's sort of funny that the topic creator has come up with this, but he screwed up the topic. It obviously depends on *what* MMORPG they're playing. It also depends on what FPS you're playing. But the funny part is that Skullheart is using a care-bear grind-fest game as an example for an MMO with PvP.

This isn't hard to explain.

Gear-Based games don't require skill. If you play World of Warcraft and consider your online "specialty", it's because winning isn't skill based and you actually have to play this game for thousands of hours.

You make it extremely apparent that you just aren't good at first-person shooters online, and you expect to be good right away. Then you play a game based on your gear, class, and level. You do decent. Is it not obvious that the game World of Warcraft requires minimal skill? Maybe you don't know what skill is? Also, you didn't explain how multiplayer is supposedly "dumbed-down".

I believe if someone practices for months and months on end, he shouldn't be able to be killed by a stupid mindless lamen to the game (lucky shot or not).

Obviously if someone practices that much, they won't be killed by a mindless lamen. It's obvious that in round/teambased games, skilled players will die to unskilled players. But there's a little thing called Kill/Death ratio. It's about how many of those unskilled players you can kill before you're taken down by one. In World of Warcraft, it's rare if you're able to kill more than 1 person.

MMORPGs require little strategy, and little skill. You are presented with abilities, and any "skill" is based on how you can use those skills to take advantage of the situation. You aren't presented with many varying choices though so it's nearly impossible to lose a significant amount of games as opposed to winning. It's all about gear.

I don't see the point in arguing when the fact of the matter is that First Person Shooters put two identical players in a game space. The only defining factor on who wins is how much better one player is than another. In MMORPGs, you put two extremely different players in a game space. The only defining factor is your class/talents/gear. One player's character may be customized to specifically beat that other player's character. This forces ability execution take a backseat. Classes aren't balanced against eachother in 1vs1, 2vs2, and 3vs3 situations. FPS requiring more skill than WoW isn't an opinion, it's a fact.

#9 Posted by Skullheart (2054 posts) -

Crucifier hit the point on the head. It's sort of funny that the topic creator has come up with this, but he screwed up the topic. It obviously depends on *what* MMORPG they're playing. It also depends on what FPS you're playing. But the funny part is that Skullheart is using a care-bear grind-fest game as an example for an MMO with PvP.

This isn't hard to explain.

Gear-Based games don't require skill. If you play World of Warcraft and consider your online "specialty", it's because winning isn't skill based and you actually have to play this game for thousands of hours.

You make it extremely apparent that you just aren't good at first-person shooters online, and you expect to be good right away. Then you play a game based on your gear, class, and level. You do decent. Is it not obvious that the game World of Warcraft requires minimal skill? In fact, you contradict yourself. You don't explain how multiplayer is dumbed-down.

I believe if someone practices for months and months on end, he shouldn't be able to be killed by a stupid mindless lamen to the game (lucky shot or not).GodLovesDead

Obviously if someone practices that much, they won't be killed by a mindless lamen. It's obvious that in round/teambased games, skilled players will die to unskilled players. But there's a little thing called Kill/Death ratio. It's about how many of those unskilled players you can kill before you're taken down by one. In World of Warcraft, it's rare if you're able to kill more than 1 person.

MMORPGs require little strategy, and little skill. You are presented with abilities, and any "skill" is based on how you can use those skills to take advantage of the situation. You aren't presented with many varying choices though so it's nearly impossible to lose a significant amount of games as opposed to winning. It's all about gear.

\

I knew that question would pop up, that I wasn't good at first person shooters. Do you want me to make some demos and put it in a movie? Because I'll do it just for you :) It's more the question of some random noob getting a lucky shot on me and disinterests me in the FPS genre (well, not the genre. I'll always love FPS. But the FPS games out right now ... eh).

But you've made it apparent that you suck at MMORPGs if you think that they're only skill-spam and gear dependant.

#10 Posted by Crucifier (7195 posts) -
[QUOTE="GodLovesDead"]

Crucifier hit the point on the head. It's sort of funny that the topic creator has come up with this, but he screwed up the topic. It obviously depends on *what* MMORPG they're playing. It also depends on what FPS you're playing. But the funny part is that Skullheart is using a care-bear grind-fest game as an example for an MMO with PvP.

This isn't hard to explain.

Gear-Based games don't require skill. If you play World of Warcraft and consider your online "specialty", it's because winning isn't skill based and you actually have to play this game for thousands of hours.

You make it extremely apparent that you just aren't good at first-person shooters online, and you expect to be good right away. Then you play a game based on your gear, class, and level. You do decent. Is it not obvious that the game World of Warcraft requires minimal skill? In fact, you contradict yourself. You don't explain how multiplayer is dumbed-down.

I believe if someone practices for months and months on end, he shouldn't be able to be killed by a stupid mindless lamen to the game (lucky shot or not).Skullheart

Obviously if someone practices that much, they won't be killed by a mindless lamen. It's obvious that in round/teambased games, skilled players will die to unskilled players. But there's a little thing called Kill/Death ratio. It's about how many of those unskilled players you can kill before you're taken down by one. In World of Warcraft, it's rare if you're able to kill more than 1 person.

MMORPGs require little strategy, and little skill. You are presented with abilities, and any "skill" is based on how you can use those skills to take advantage of the situation. You aren't presented with many varying choices though so it's nearly impossible to lose a significant amount of games as opposed to winning. It's all about gear.

\

I knew that question would pop up, that I wasn't good at first person shooters. Do you want me to make some demos and put it in a movie? Because I'll do it just for you :) It's more the question of some random noob getting a lucky shot on me and disinterests me in the FPS genre (well, not the genre. I'll always love FPS. But the FPS games out right now ... eh).

But you've made it apparent that you suck at MMORPGs if you think that they're only skill-spam and gear dependant.

there really isnt anything other to do in an mmo other than hit certain skills in sequence or spam macros
#11 Posted by GodLovesDead (9752 posts) -
[QUOTE="GodLovesDead"]

Crucifier hit the point on the head. It's sort of funny that the topic creator has come up with this, but he screwed up the topic. It obviously depends on *what* MMORPG they're playing. It also depends on what FPS you're playing. But the funny part is that Skullheart is using a care-bear grind-fest game as an example for an MMO with PvP.

This isn't hard to explain.

Gear-Based games don't require skill. If you play World of Warcraft and consider your online "specialty", it's because winning isn't skill based and you actually have to play this game for thousands of hours.

You make it extremely apparent that you just aren't good at first-person shooters online, and you expect to be good right away. Then you play a game based on your gear, class, and level. You do decent. Is it not obvious that the game World of Warcraft requires minimal skill? In fact, you contradict yourself. You don't explain how multiplayer is dumbed-down.

I believe if someone practices for months and months on end, he shouldn't be able to be killed by a stupid mindless lamen to the game (lucky shot or not).Skullheart

Obviously if someone practices that much, they won't be killed by a mindless lamen. It's obvious that in round/teambased games, skilled players will die to unskilled players. But there's a little thing called Kill/Death ratio. It's about how many of those unskilled players you can kill before you're taken down by one. In World of Warcraft, it's rare if you're able to kill more than 1 person.

MMORPGs require little strategy, and little skill. You are presented with abilities, and any "skill" is based on how you can use those skills to take advantage of the situation. You aren't presented with many varying choices though so it's nearly impossible to lose a significant amount of games as opposed to winning. It's all about gear.

\

I knew that question would pop up, that I wasn't good at first person shooters. Do you want me to make some demos and put it in a movie? Because I'll do it just for you :) It's more the question of some random noob getting a lucky shot on me and disinterests me in the FPS genre (well, not the genre. I'll always love FPS. But the FPS games out right now ... eh).

But you've made it apparent that you suck at MMORPGs if you think that they're only skill-spam and gear dependant.

How can you suck at an MMORPG? You're just trying to justify your "winnings" in World of Warcraft as skill. Read my above post again, including the edited-in text. If you are getting randomly head-shotted, you obviously aren't good because you place yourself in situations that allow for that to happen.

#12 Posted by ChinoJamesKeene (1201 posts) -

RPGs come down to math, and maybe a little skill and planning. But overall you can script an RPG player perfectly beforehand calcualting your damage per second, regen, spells, buffs and end at a predictable result.

COD2 is a load of crap game to compare skill with, its a sprayfest.

In other games, if your cunning enough you could kill the most poeple with the worst weapons, or make choices to win the game without even firing a shot.

You still have to be skillful win PvPs in RPGs but theres levels of skill in FPS players out there that are just inhuman.

#13 Posted by Skullheart (2054 posts) -

RPGs come down to math, and maybe a little skill and planning. But overall you can script an RPG player perfectly beforehand calcualting your damage per second, regen, spells, buffs and end at a predictable result.

COD2 is a load of crap game to compare skill with, its a sprayfest.

In other games, if your cunning enough you could kill the most poeple with the worst weapons, or make choices to win the game without even firing a shot.

You still have to be skillful win PvPs in RPGs but theres levels of skill in FPS players out there that are just inhuman.

ChinoJamesKeene

Well, when I was just starting to play out in Call of Duty 2, I had a friend who knew this guy who won a huge tournament for Call of Duty 2. He was definitely one of the best in the world. I knew I was up against a loss when he entered the roo, but I actually killed him multiple times because I had been playing FPS type games for years.

Example: Me and my bud were walking along the edge of a building looking for him (2 against 1). The dude had a sniper, so when he shot, we were dead. We stayed up on the building for a good minute, and my team mate gets killed by him. Seeing him in the little radar on my minimap (when you shoot it has a stupid red dot of where you shot from), I jumped off of the building as he was cocking his gun (cocking his gun, so he couldn't fire), I turned in the air and fired 5-10 rounds and hit him in the face from half way across the map.

Just because you get hit in the face, doesn't mean you're unskilled. In fact, it's ridiculously easy to achieve headshots in Call of Duty 2.

So, do you want me to make a demo of myself or not? Since you say I suck so much.

"COD2 is a load of crap game to compare skill with, its a sprayfest."

Yeah well maybe that's my problem and I haven't found a good FPS that takes skill yet. Suggestions?

#14 Posted by sharky_dkb (210 posts) -

Get BF2142. Others won't agree with me, but it takes a lot of skill to play the game WELL. When I say WELL, I don't mean bunnyhopping,rdx hopping, voss whoring, etc.

And most definitely FPSes take more skill than MMORPGs. I took a Red Mage and a Monk to 75 in FFXI before I quit and comprared to 2142, most of the time I was sitting there constantly repeating macros. Like the guys above have said, you have t oconstantly be on your toes in FPSes. Being aware of your surroudings is key and hand-eye coordination is essential, while for MMORPGs all you really need is a good memory of where to go and what monsters drop what. Pen and paper too if it's a stat-based game. :|

#15 Posted by Skullheart (2054 posts) -

Get BF2142. Others won't agree with me, but it takes a lot of skill to play the game WELL. When I say WELL, I don't mean bunnyhopping,rdx hopping, voss whoring, etc.

And most definitely FPSes take more skill than MMORPGs. I took a Red Mage and a Monk to 75 in FFXI before I quit and comprared to 2142, most of the time I was sitting there constantly repeating macros. Like the guys above have said, you have t oconstantly be on your toes in FPSes. Being aware of your surroudings is key and hand-eye coordination is essential, while for MMORPGs all you really need is a good memory of where to go and what monsters drop what. Pen and paper too if it's a stat-based game. :|

sharky_dkb

Yeah. You're probably right, but what about the Call of Duty series?

#16 Posted by sharky_dkb (210 posts) -

To me it was a hunk of crap. Everywhere I turned it was either a Thompson or an ppsh. Lee Einfield was the way to go 8)

#17 Posted by Skullheart (2054 posts) -

To me it was a hunk of crap. Everywhere I turned it was either a Thompson or an ppsh. Lee Einfield was the way to go 8)

sharky_dkb

Yeah seriously.

#18 Posted by Crucifier (7195 posts) -
play counter strike like everybody else on the internet already has. that game requires skill. play against people in a good clan and there is no way you will outscore them without a hell of a lot of practice.
#19 Posted by sircyrus (6358 posts) -

Starsiege: Tribes (the first, not the dumbed down Tribes 2) was a great example of the FPS genre's skill requirements.

Using the laser rifle you had to lead the target, but not only left-right. You had to gauge their speed, trajectory, direction, and and if they're shifting left/right (in attempts to mess with snipers). You had to do all this in a split second before that enemy could fire a disc/mortor at you.

For mid-air discs you'd have to take all that above information into account, and also measure your own speed, trajectory, etc all in a split second as those factors were constantly changing.

Whereas PvP in a MMO is more combo-oriented. A WoW roguekilling someone throughstunlock isn't displaying skill, they're using a game imbalance to their advantage (combo being using stunning skills in succession). A Warlock who dots a player then throws a fear on them and runs away isn't showing skill, they're again using a game imbalance to their advantage (combo being dot/fear). That's all MMO combat is, the usage of combos to best your opponent. Ice Nova + Blink, DoT + fear, snare + DD (EQ kiting), etc etc.

Equipment-centric level-based MMO's cannot be compared to FPS games in terms of skill required, because simply put those kind of MMO's don't require any skill to play.

#20 Posted by RK-Mara (11488 posts) -
First Person Shooters are the reason why I don't care about PvP in MMO's. It's always better in FPS. DAoC with RvR is the only MMO with good PvP.
#21 Posted by GodLovesDead (9752 posts) -
Hahaha, man, don't get me started about Tribes. Everyone was freaking elite at that game. Not to mention the complex controls and configurations. Even Tribes 2 baffled me. Regardless, Call of Duty 2 isn't that good of a multiplayer shooter. Play Counter Strike 1.6 (Requires more skill than source), Counter Strike Source, Tribes, ect. Battlefield 2 and 2142 aren't accurate displays of skill, unless you want to fly some helicopters and jets.
#22 Posted by Skullheart (2054 posts) -

Starsiege: Tribes (the first, not the dumbed down Tribes 2) was a great example of the FPS genre's skill requirements.

Using the laser rifle you had to lead the target, but not only left-right. You had to gauge their speed, trajectory, direction, and and if they're shifting left/right (in attempts to mess with snipers). You had to do all this in a split second before that enemy could fire a disc/mortor at you.

For mid-air discs you'd have to take all that above information into account, and also measure your own speed, trajectory, etc all in a split second as those factors were constantly changing.

Whereas PvP in a MMO is more combo-oriented. A WoW roguekilling someone throughstunlock isn't displaying skill, they're using a game imbalance to their advantage (combo being using stunning skills in succession). A Warlock who dots a player then throws a fear on them and runs away isn't showing skill, they're again using a game imbalance to their advantage (combo being dot/fear). That's all MMO combat is, the usage of combos to best your opponent. Ice Nova + Blink, DoT + fear, snare + DD (EQ kiting), etc etc.

Equipment-centric level-based MMO's cannot be compared to FPS games in terms of skill required, because simply put those kind of MMO's don't require any skill to play.

sircyrus

Makes sense to me.
#23 Posted by Cirkelinespark (396 posts) -

First Person Shooters are the reason why I don't care about PvP in MMO's. It's always better in FPS. DAoC with RvR is the only MMO with good PvP.RK-Mara

DAoC is the god of pvp ! Nothing even comes close to what that game has to offer pvpwise.

#24 Posted by isDoooomed (382 posts) -

Starsiege: Tribes (the first, not the dumbed down Tribes 2) was a great example of the FPS genre's skill requirements.

Using the laser rifle you had to lead the target, but not only left-right. You had to gauge their speed, trajectory, direction, and and if they're shifting left/right (in attempts to mess with snipers). You had to do all this in a split second before that enemy could fire a disc/mortor at you.

For mid-air discs you'd have to take all that above information into account, and also measure your own speed, trajectory, etc all in a split second as those factors were constantly changing.

Whereas PvP in a MMO is more combo-oriented. A WoW roguekilling someone throughstunlock isn't displaying skill, they're using a game imbalance to their advantage (combo being using stunning skills in succession). A Warlock who dots a player then throws a fear on them and runs away isn't showing skill, they're again using a game imbalance to their advantage (combo being dot/fear). That's all MMO combat is, the usage of combos to best your opponent. Ice Nova + Blink, DoT + fear, snare + DD (EQ kiting), etc etc.

Equipment-centric level-based MMO's cannot be compared to FPS games in terms of skill required, because simply put those kind of MMO's don't require any skill to play.

sircyrus

See, I played a feral druid in WoW for 1,5 years, back in the times when everybody said they suck and are nothing to be afraid of in PvP (and even worse in PvE, though my guild loved me for good reasons). Well, until I kicked their epic asses in my blue gear. How? There's not a universal combo that will beat any class (at least not in this case, but true for some of your examples). Over the time I've had to develop strategies against each class (or even player), but they were only usable to a degree anyway, depending on how the opponent reacts. One move, be it me missing a key or him doing something unexpected, could easily mess up the whole plan and required me to rethink and adapt to the new situation in split seconds, ofc this happened a lot. I've also perfected my timing to a degree that a missing +minor speed enchantment on my boots (makes you a couple percent faster) would totally mess up my fights because I exactly knew "I have to switch to travel form and run for X.X seconds in this direction so that I can heal myself without that certain opponent possibly interrupting the heal and to get in a good position to counter his following attack" (isn't necessarily skill, but I think it's easily comparable to things like rocket jumping in quake and just shows a high grade of dedication.).

Though, what you said really is true for most players, they look at what others do, imitate it and mostly let their gear work for them, but it's certainly not true for all of them. Being creative in your gamestyle and to know exactly what options your opponent has at any moment in a fight, which he's most likely to use, how you could, and more importantly should counter it, can be so much more fun. Do the unpredictable, use a good bluff and baffle him, know his weak points and use them to your advantage, perfect your timing...it involves as much skill as you're willing to use.

I've also put thousands of hours into PvP in FPS and to be honest, my PvP times in WoW required more thinking than most of my FPS games, though that also depends on the type of FPS and the environment (clan etc.) your playing it in. After all, I would rate both about equally.

Btw, I've had dozens of impressed opponents quickly coming online on my side just to tell me they never saw someone fighting like me before and I know of at least a dozen druids that came into existance inspired by my gamestyle. (well, that sounded like I'm a dick, but it's true) ;)

The funny thing? It was on a PvE server.

#25 Posted by ikwal (1600 posts) -

I didn't use to think there was much skill in MMORPG PvPs, but there are quite alot when you play arena in WoW. My friend is taking WoW PvP very seriously and you can really see the difference in skill, not that he's better at damaging but it's all about tactic, timing and knowing your enemey.

But I still think there is WAY more skill in FPS games, it's not all about spraying (well maybe if you're just playing on a public server) but when you're playing in a tournement in lets say CS the only thing that matters is your tactics and knowing how the enemy reacts to what you do.

#26 Posted by Old_Gooseberry (3470 posts) -

FPS need a extremely fast realiable internet connection, and skill (i have bad awful internet so i don't play them online)

All people do in MMORPGS to win in PVP is get epic gear and boom your dead, no skill at all... fast internet connection is slightly less important as with a FPS

#27 Posted by izzyjunior (46 posts) -

But when I go into multiplayer, it seems like I die very very fast when someone shoots me. Skullheart
So you think FPS' take no skill because you die fast in those, but MMORPG's do take skill because you dominate in them? Maybe you just aren't very good at FPS'?

There's absolutely no question an FPS takes more skill. MMORPG PvP is dependant on too many things that have nothing do with your skill; Luck, gear, level, and class. If you take two players of equal skill and gear in WoW, but of two different classes, chances are one player is going to dominate the other player due to class strengths/weaknesses. Take two equally skilled people in an FPS and they'll probably end up in a stalemate.

WoW is probably the worst MMORPG for PvP anyway. The game is so horribly imbalanced for PvP. One class will dominate while others are left behind. Then they'll nerf that class so it'll be too weak to PvP, then buff some other class so they'll then be overpowered. It's a joke.

#28 Posted by Skullheart (2054 posts) -
[QUOTE="sircyrus"]

Starsiege: Tribes (the first, not the dumbed down Tribes 2) was a great example of the FPS genre's skill requirements.

Using the laser rifle you had to lead the target, but not only left-right. You had to gauge their speed, trajectory, direction, and and if they're shifting left/right (in attempts to mess with snipers). You had to do all this in a split second before that enemy could fire a disc/mortor at you.

For mid-air discs you'd have to take all that above information into account, and also measure your own speed, trajectory, etc all in a split second as those factors were constantly changing.

Whereas PvP in a MMO is more combo-oriented. A WoW roguekilling someone throughstunlock isn't displaying skill, they're using a game imbalance to their advantage (combo being using stunning skills in succession). A Warlock who dots a player then throws a fear on them and runs away isn't showing skill, they're again using a game imbalance to their advantage (combo being dot/fear). That's all MMO combat is, the usage of combos to best your opponent. Ice Nova + Blink, DoT + fear, snare + DD (EQ kiting), etc etc.

Equipment-centric level-based MMO's cannot be compared to FPS games in terms of skill required, because simply put those kind of MMO's don't require any skill to play.

isDoooomed

See, I played a feral druid in WoW for 1,5 years, back in the times when everybody said they suck and are nothing to be afraid of in PvP (and even worse in PvE, though my guild loved me for good reasons). Well, until I kicked their epic asses in my blue gear. How? There's not a universal combo that will beat any class (at least not in this case, but true for some of your examples). Over the time I've had to develop strategies against each class (or even player), but they were only usable to a degree anyway, depending on how the opponent reacts. One move, be it me missing a key or him doing something unexpected, could easily mess up the whole plan and required me to rethink and adapt to the new situation in split seconds, ofc this happened a lot. I've also perfected my timing to a degree that a missing +minor speed enchantment on my boots (makes you a couple percent faster) would totally mess up my fights because I exactly knew "I have to switch to travel form and run for X.X seconds in this direction so that I can heal myself without that certain opponent possibly interrupting the heal and to get in a good position to counter his following attack" (isn't necessarily skill, but I think it's easily comparable to things like rocket jumping in quake and just shows a high grade of dedication.).

Though, what you said really is true for most players, they look at what others do, imitate it and mostly let their gear work for them, but it's certainly not true for all of them. Being creative in your gamestyle and to know exactly what options your opponent has at any moment in a fight, which he's most likely to use, how you could, and more importantly should counter it, can be so much more fun. Do the unpredictable, use a good bluff and baffle him, know his weak points and use them to your advantage, perfect your timing...it involves as much skill as you're willing to use.

I've also put thousands of hours into PvP in FPS and to be honest, my PvP times in WoW required more thinking than most of my FPS games, though that also depends on the type of FPS and the environment (clan etc.) your playing it in. After all, I would rate both about equally.

Btw, I've had dozens of impressed opponents quickly coming online on my side just to tell me they never saw someone fighting like me before and I know of at least a dozen druids that came into existance inspired by my gamestyle. (well, that sounded like I'm a dick, but it's true) ;)

The funny thing? It was on a PvE server.

Exactly. Listen to this man.

[QUOTE="Skullheart"] But when I go into multiplayer, it seems like I die very very fast when someone shoots me. izzyjunior

So you think FPS' take no skill because you die fast in those, but MMORPG's do take skill because you dominate in them? Maybe you just aren't very good at FPS'?

DO you want me to make a demonstration or not? I don't suck at FPS games. I just think Call of Duty 2 gives players kills a little too easily. You see, in Call of Duty 1 (Or Halo 2 I guess), people had to work to kill me. They couldn't just spray pray and that's the end of that. In which case, the one shot rifle still doesn't take as much skill in CoD 2 to use.

But I'll be alright once I come home with Crysis.

#29 Posted by 19chevelle72 (186 posts) -

Only thing I will say is. At the moment, MMO fights are semi scripted, with variables being gear skill etc, to impact what damage is done to opponents. I think in the very near future, we will see MMO with an actual you must hit a person with the weapon type fights. As in Dark Messiah type fighting. Swing a sword hit opponent with it. I think the new Conan game is gunna be like that haven't read up on it in awhile.

As for right now though, I would lean toward FPS. But I will admit, in other non FPS games, some leagues were created to null out gear advantage. In Ultima Online, tournys were held where you made a brand new character and only got premade weapons and gear to duel in. I think something like that shows true skill.

#30 Posted by blackdreamhunk (3880 posts) -
well there is huxely that will be a mmopvp
#31 Posted by Skullheart (2054 posts) -

I just hate how in Call of Duty 2, people can kill you so easily (example: getting the jump on you. If someone comes around the corner and I'm off fighting some other person, not looking at the person to my right, and the person shoots me, I die. IN ANY OTHER FPS I HAVE PLAYED, I'VE ALWAYS BEEN ABLE TO KILL THE PERSON TO THE RIGHT, EVEN WHEN I WASN'T EXPECTING THEM TO SHOOT ME).

The only real reason I play CoD 2 is because my friend absolutely loves it. I keep trying to convince him it is a complete piece of ported **** online.

#32 Posted by BlackAlpha666 (2614 posts) -

Stop complaining about arcade FPS games being too easy. They are made in such a way that every 8 year old can jump in and kill everyone. And if you are going to compare genres to each other you have to pick more games. Not just COD2 VS WOW. You should change the topic title to: "PVP: COD2 vs WoW. You can't say: "MMORPG's take more skill online because COD2 is a piece of crap". There are more games out there.

Infact, there are lots of FPS games that take a lot of skill to win. I'm sure it's the same with MMORPG's, even though I don't play those so I can't say much about them. But about the FPS games, pick any realism based FPS game. In all those games it takes more skill than just running around and spraying. But even arcade FPS games can be more than just mindless shooters. FPS games can become really complex online, especially when you got a team that works together and communicates properlytrough microphones. Running around on your own and killing everyone is one thing. Spotting and distracting an enemy while a teammate flanks him is a whole different story. That's teamwork. That's where you'll see how much skill it really takes to play a FPS game.

And if you are busy fighting an enemy and than get shot by another enemy from the side or back, you deserve to die. Even though they might've used minimal communication and teamwork, atleast one of them was smart enough to outflank you and kill you. That's skill right there.

#33 Posted by BLaZe462 (1432 posts) -
rts takes the most practice and skill because it is about eliminating mistakes until you can build the fastest and not lose units.
#34 Posted by StephenHu (2852 posts) -

FPS, faster, requires reflex, usually strategy, and usually teamwork.

#35 Posted by oscar530 (4430 posts) -
FPS I dont' like and never will like MMORPGs they take too much time to get into
#36 Posted by MTBare (5176 posts) -

FPS takes skill.

MMORPG takes time.

#39 Posted by niko44 (2281 posts) -
IT amazes me how many people are giving out their opinion without actually experiencing both.Many MMORPGs are not about gear in pvp, Many FPSes are not about spraying like crazy.If you haven't experienced both, please dont post.MMORPGs require more thinking because of how complex they can be depending on what you are facing and the much more tools you have against different stuff unlike FPSes.FPSes require quick reflexes,fast movement, and accuraccy, you may also need to work in teams(same in mmorpgs) depending on what game type.Whichever of those 2 you consider skill is the right answer for you.Thats my post of the day, folks.
#40 Posted by MTBare (5176 posts) -
What's an MMORPG that isn't about level/gear? I used to play DAOC, a MMORPG hailed for having the best pvp, and it was definitely NOT skill.. at all.
#41 Posted by FragMonkey09 (1543 posts) -
The only MMO that takes skill for PvP is Eve Online.
#42 Posted by 4th3ist (510 posts) -

To the above poster, see:

Ultima Online*

#43 Posted by Skullheart (2054 posts) -

rts takes the most practice and skill because it is about eliminating mistakes until you can build the fastest and not lose units.BLaZe462

RTS consists of: Learning and practicing the strategies for victory, and repeating them over about 20 times. I won't even really get into RTS games...way too **** boring for me.

#44 Posted by GodLovesDead (9752 posts) -

[QUOTE="BLaZe462"]rts takes the most practice and skill because it is about eliminating mistakes until you can build the fastest and not lose units.Skullheart

RTS consists of: Learning and practicing the strategies for victory, and repeating them over about 20 times. I won't even really get into RTS games...way too **** boring for me.

You're right, hitting "1", "4", and occasionally "6" for thousands of hours against repetitive enemies is much more fun! :)

#45 Posted by Skullheart (2054 posts) -
[QUOTE="Skullheart"]

[QUOTE="BLaZe462"]rts takes the most practice and skill because it is about eliminating mistakes until you can build the fastest and not lose units.GodLovesDead

RTS consists of: Learning and practicing the strategies for victory, and repeating them over about 20 times. I won't even really get into RTS games...way too **** boring for me.

You're right, hitting "1", "4", and occasionally "6" for thousands of hours against repetitive enemies is much more fun! :)

I'm not following :/

#46 Posted by Dan41 (30 posts) -

play counter strike like everybody else on the internet already has. that game requires skill. play against people in a good clan and there is no way you will outscore them without a hell of a lot of practice. Crucifier

very true

#47 Posted by baal46 (663 posts) -
Old school Ultima Online, like UOR era or earlier, takes MAD amounts of skill for pvp. Check out my favorite free UOR shard at www.defianceuo.com and see what I mean. Skill plays a role in other MMOs but not like this one. Generally, though, I agree that FPS takes way more skill, at least for "twitch" gamers. WoW takes skill in certain ways similar to the way RTS takes skill. All of that is stat based, but still makes you think on your feet.
#48 Posted by GodLovesDead (9752 posts) -

Old school Ultima Online, like UOR era or earlier, takes MAD amounts of skill for pvp. Check out my favorite free UOR shard at www.defianceuo.com and see what I mean. Skill plays a role in other MMOs but not like this one. Generally, though, I agree that FPS takes way more skill, at least for "twitch" gamers. WoW takes skill in certain ways similar to the way RTS takes skill. All of that is stat based, but still makes you think on your feet.baal46

Yea, Ultima Online was a PvP dream. Full loot and everything. But it's just buried by World of Warcraft and all other unskillful MMORPGs.

#49 Posted by sSubZerOo (43016 posts) -

[QUOTE="BLaZe462"]rts takes the most practice and skill because it is about eliminating mistakes until you can build the fastest and not lose units.Skullheart

RTS consists of: Learning and practicing the strategies for victory, and repeating them over about 20 times. I won't even really get into RTS games...way too **** boring for me.

RTS's are far harder to master then any shooter.. This is coming from a avid FPS fan. RTS's not only require fast wits, but a strategy, the ability to cope far more then a shooter, micro management, long term goals.. Etc etc..

#50 Posted by Skullheart (2054 posts) -

[QUOTE="baal46"]Old school Ultima Online, like UOR era or earlier, takes MAD amounts of skill for pvp. Check out my favorite free UOR shard at www.defianceuo.com and see what I mean. Skill plays a role in other MMOs but not like this one. Generally, though, I agree that FPS takes way more skill, at least for "twitch" gamers. WoW takes skill in certain ways similar to the way RTS takes skill. All of that is stat based, but still makes you think on your feet.GodLovesDead

Yea, Ultima Online was a PvP dream. Full loot and everything. But it's just buried by World of Warcraft and all other unskillful MMORPGs.

It's too bad Ultima got a terrible rating, because I would have tried it out otherwise. The reason I don't try it out now is because it's just old.