AMD "Zen" CPU Core Block Diagram Surfaces

Avatar image for Coseniath
Coseniath

3183

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#1  Edited By Coseniath
Member since 2004 • 3183 Posts

In the begining I only saw it at WCCFtech with a link to a forum.

But then a lot of sites start to post this as news sooo...

This is the image from http://www.planet3dnow.de/vbulletin/threads/421433-AMD-Zen-14nm-8-Kerne-95W-TDP-DDR4?p=5004014&viewfull=1#post5004014

And the news from different sites:

AMD "Zen" CPU Core Block Diagram Surfaces from TechpowerUp

As a quick follow up to our older report on AMD's upcoming "Zen" CPU core micro-architecture being a reversion to the monolithic core design, and a departure from its "Bulldozer" multicore module design which isn't exactly flying off the shelves, a leaked company slide provides us the first glimpse into the core design. Zen looks a lot like "Stars," the core design AMD launched with its Phenom series, except it has a lot more muscle, and one could see significant IPC improvements over the current architecture.

To begin with, Zen features monolithic fetch and decode units. On Bulldozer, two cores inside a module featured dedicated decode and integer units with shared floating-point units. On Zen, there's a monolithic decode unit, and single integer and floating points. The integer unit has 6 pipelines, compared to 4 per core on Bulldozer. The floating point unit has two large 256-bit FMAC (fused-multiply accumulate) units, compared to two 128-bit ones on Bulldozer. The core has a dedicated 512 KB L2 cache. This may be much smaller than the 2 MB per module on Bulldozer, but also indicate that the core is able to push through things fast enough to not need cushioning by a cache (much like Intel's Haswell architecture featuring just 256 KB per core). In a typical multi-core Zen chip, the cores will converge at a large last-level cache, which routes data between them to the processor's uncore, which will feature a DDR4 IMC and a PCI-Express 3.0 root complex.

And A more indepth analysis from PCPerspective:

AMD Zen Diagram Leaked and Analysis

There are some pretty breathless analysis of a single leaked block diagram that is supposedly from AMD. This is one of the first indications of what the Zen architecture looks like from a CPU core standpoint. The block diagram is very simple, but looks in the same style as what we have seen from AMD. There are some labels, but this is almost a 50,000 foot view of the architecture rather than a slightly clearer 10,000 foot view.

There are a few things we know for sure about Zen. It is a clean sheet design that moves away from what AMD was pursuing with their Bulldozer family of cores. Zen gives up CMT for SMT support for handling more threads. The design has a cluster of four cores sharing 8 MB of L3 cache, with each core having access to 512 KB of L2 cache. There is a lot of optimism that AMD can kick the trend of falling more and more behind Intel every year with this particular design. Jim Keller is viewed very positively due to his work at AMD in the K7 through K8 days, as well as what he accomplished at Apple with their ARM based offerings.

One of the first sites to pick up this diagram wrote quite a bit about what they saw. There was a lot of talk about, “right off the bat just by looking at the block diagram we can tell that Zen will have substantially higher single threaded performance compared to Excavator and the Bulldozer family.” There was the assumption that because it had two 256-bit FMACs that it could fuse them to create a single 512 bit AVX product.

These assumptions are pretty silly. This is a very simple block diagram that answers few very important questions about the architecture. Yes, it shows 6 int pipelines, but we don’t know how many are address generation vs. execution units. We don’t know how wide decode is. We don’t know latency to L2 cache, much less how L3 is connected and shared out. So just because we see more integer pipelines per core does not automatically mean, “Da, more is better, strong like tractor!” We don’t know what improvements or simplifications we will see in the schedulers. There is no mention of the front-end other than Fetch and Decode. How about Branch Prediction? What is the latency for the memory controller when addressing external memory?

Essentially, this looks like a simplified way of expressing to analysts that AMD is attempting to retain their per core integer performance while boosting floating point/AVX at a similar level. Other than that, there is very little that can be gleaned from this simple block diagram.

Other leaks that are interesting concerning Zen are the formats that we will see these products integrated into. One leak detailed a HPC aimed APU that features 16 Zen cores with 32 MB of L3 cache attached to a very large GPU. Another leak detailed a server level chip that will support 32 cores and will be seen in 2P systems. Zen certainly appears to be very flexible, and in ways it reminds me of a much beefier Jaguar type CPU. My gut feeling is that AMD will get closer to Intel than it has been in years, and perhaps they can catch Intel by surprise with a few extra features. The reality of the situation is that AMD is far behind and only now are we seeing pure-play foundries start to get even close to Intel in terms of process technology. AMD is very much at a disadvantage here.

Still, the company needs to release new, competitive products that will refill the company coffers. The previous quarter’s loss has dug into cash reserves, but AMD is still stable in terms of cash on hand and long term debt. 2015 will see new GPUs, an APU refresh, and the release of the new Carrizo parts. 2016 looks to be the make or break year with Zen and K12.

TLDR: Phenom III xD

ps: People calculate the 6 int pipelines compare to 4 in buldozer, as 50% performance per core per GHz increase.

That could make it perform at Sandybridge levels of single thread.

If this is true then AMD will be able to compete again at gaming market. Even at high end if they release 16core as they said they will.

ps: For people to understand how bad things are now, if we compare core per core with the same GHz Intel vs AMD at the moment, i7 4790K vs FX8350 (both running at 4GHz), i7 4790K is 72,5% faster than FX8350 in single core performance.

Avatar image for horgen
horgen

127503

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#2 horgen  Moderator
Member since 2006 • 127503 Posts

If they can move up to sandy bridge levels then that is great! And if skylake is no major jump in performance, AMD is a good budget option again. I hope.

Avatar image for Coseniath
Coseniath

3183

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#3 Coseniath
Member since 2004 • 3183 Posts
@horgen said:

If they can move up to sandy bridge levels then that is great! And if skylake is no major jump in performance, AMD is a good budget option again. I hope.

My only concern is that this is coming at 2016. Intel will release Skylake 14nm in a few months and probably will release Cannonlake 10nm at 2016.

I really hope seeing them provide sandybridge single core and by giving higher clocks to even reach Haswell.

Avatar image for thehig1
thehig1

7537

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 5

#4 thehig1
Member since 2014 • 7537 Posts

I assume for me to upgrade to AMD's new chip id have to get a new motherboard. Its not likely this will still be an Am3+ chip is it ?

Avatar image for Coseniath
Coseniath

3183

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#5 Coseniath
Member since 2004 • 3183 Posts
@thehig1 said:

I assume for me to upgrade to AMD's new chip id have to get a new motherboard. Its not likely this will still be an Am3+ chip is it ?

It will support DDR4 and PCIE3 so its safely to guess that you might also need a new motherboard...

Avatar image for ShadowDeathX
ShadowDeathX

11698

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 4

User Lists: 0

#6  Edited By ShadowDeathX
Member since 2006 • 11698 Posts

Single-Threaded Performance of Sandy or Ivy Bridge with a total of 8 Cores + a good integrated GPU for less than $250 sounds like a WIN to me.

These APUs are going to be sick and will win the gaming market with ease if Intel doesn't counter back.

Avatar image for neatfeatguy
neatfeatguy

4400

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 20

User Lists: 0

#7 neatfeatguy
Member since 2005 • 4400 Posts

I was hoping for the best from AMD when Bulldozer launched, but the perfromance was less than stellar when compared to Intel's offerings. I ran with AMD processors back in the day when they kicked the crap out of what Intel had to offer and up through Phenom II. I was hoping the last push of their Steamroller through Excavator would have closed the gap with Intel's Sandybridge, but they were pretty much scrapped on the desktop side. I grew impatient, so I jumped to Intel finally on in the Haswell family.

Hopefully with Zen, it'll put AMD back in the game with Intel.

Avatar image for thehig1
thehig1

7537

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 5

#8 thehig1
Member since 2014 • 7537 Posts

@Coseniath said:
@thehig1 said:

I assume for me to upgrade to AMD's new chip id have to get a new motherboard. Its not likely this will still be an Am3+ chip is it ?

It will support DDR4 and PCIE3 so its safely to guess that you might also need a new motherboard...

thought so.

At least its a year or two away

Avatar image for horgen
horgen

127503

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#9 horgen  Moderator
Member since 2006 • 127503 Posts

@Coseniath said:
@horgen said:

If they can move up to sandy bridge levels then that is great! And if skylake is no major jump in performance, AMD is a good budget option again. I hope.

My only concern is that this is coming at 2016. Intel will release Skylake 14nm in a few months and probably will release Cannonlake 10nm at 2016.

I really hope seeing them provide sandybridge single core and by giving higher clocks to even reach Haswell.

Intel is that close to 10nm?

@Coseniath said:
@thehig1 said:

I assume for me to upgrade to AMD's new chip id have to get a new motherboard. Its not likely this will still be an Am3+ chip is it ?

It will support DDR4 and PCIE3 so its safely to guess that you might also need a new motherboard...

About damn time!

Avatar image for ShadowDeathX
ShadowDeathX

11698

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 4

User Lists: 0

#10 ShadowDeathX
Member since 2006 • 11698 Posts

@horgen said:

@Coseniath said:
@horgen said:

If they can move up to sandy bridge levels then that is great! And if skylake is no major jump in performance, AMD is a good budget option again. I hope.

My only concern is that this is coming at 2016. Intel will release Skylake 14nm in a few months and probably will release Cannonlake 10nm at 2016.

I really hope seeing them provide sandybridge single core and by giving higher clocks to even reach Haswell.

Intel is that close to 10nm?

I highly doubt Intel will have 10nm in mass production until the fourth quarter of 2016 according some reports online. So Cannonlake will launch in the first half of 2017.

2015 = Broadwell and some Skylake.

2016 = Full Skylake Line-Up

2017 = Cannonlake.

Avatar image for deactivated-59d151f079814
deactivated-59d151f079814

47239

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 0

#11 deactivated-59d151f079814
Member since 2003 • 47239 Posts

@ShadowDeathX said:

Single-Threaded Performance of Sandy or Ivy Bridge with a total of 8 Cores + a good integrated GPU for less than $250 sounds like a WIN to me.

These APUs are going to be sick and will win the gaming market with ease if Intel doesn't counter back.

Uh Intel is already there, all they would have to do is lower the prices on their chips at this point..

Avatar image for Mozuckint
Mozuckint

831

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 5

User Lists: 0

#12 Mozuckint
Member since 2012 • 831 Posts

Sandy levels of single thread will be disappointing honestly considering how much their hyping zen up. Acceptable? Yes, but that would just be it. Acceptable.

I don't think it would be unreasonably to ask at least to compete with Haswell.

Avatar image for deactivated-59d151f079814
deactivated-59d151f079814

47239

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 0

#13 deactivated-59d151f079814
Member since 2003 • 47239 Posts

@Mozuckint said:

Sandy levels of single thread will be disappointing honestly considering how much their hyping zen up. Acceptable? Yes, but that would just be it. Acceptable.

I don't think it would be unreasonably to ask at least to compete with Haswell.

.. I think it is pretty misleading when a 2500k overclocked to 4.5ghz will surpass stock devil's canyon i5 4690k performance.. The 2600k overclocked to the same levels will surpass the I7 4770k stock performance.. Even when both these chips are overclocked we are talking about a 5% to 8% improvement tops over the overclocked sandy chips.

Avatar image for horgen
horgen

127503

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#14 horgen  Moderator
Member since 2006 • 127503 Posts

@ShadowDeathX said:

I highly doubt Intel will have 10nm in mass production until the fourth quarter of 2016 according some reports online. So Cannonlake will launch in the first half of 2017.

2015 = Broadwell and some Skylake.

2016 = Full Skylake Line-Up

2017 = Cannonlake.

Good for AMD. They are producing Zen at 22nm or less, right?

@Mozuckint said:

Sandy levels of single thread will be disappointing honestly considering how much their hyping zen up. Acceptable? Yes, but that would just be it. Acceptable.

I don't think it would be unreasonably to ask at least to compete with Haswell.

Lets be realistic...

Avatar image for ShadowDeathX
ShadowDeathX

11698

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 4

User Lists: 0

#15 ShadowDeathX
Member since 2006 • 11698 Posts

@horgen said:

@ShadowDeathX said:

I highly doubt Intel will have 10nm in mass production until the fourth quarter of 2016 according some reports online. So Cannonlake will launch in the first half of 2017.

2015 = Broadwell and some Skylake.

2016 = Full Skylake Line-Up

2017 = Cannonlake.

Good for AMD. They are producing Zen at 22nm or less, right?

The ZEN APUs will be based on GloFlo 14nm process.

Avatar image for ShadowDeathX
ShadowDeathX

11698

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 4

User Lists: 0

#16  Edited By ShadowDeathX
Member since 2006 • 11698 Posts

Here is another diagram. Each Zen unit has 4 Cores. So on the Consumer side, we should be able to see Quad Core and Octa-Core APUs.

Now if each core performs similarly to a Sandy/Ivy Bridge core but there are 8 cores in total? This is going to be an amazing APU.

  • A single unit / Quad Core APU should be enough to satisfy the needs of the mainstream gamer.
  • A dual unit / Octa Core APU should satisfy the needs of performance gamers with ease.

And btw; the 32 Core Server's CPU has a TDP of 120w/140w.

Imagine a consumer 8 Core APU? Should easily fit under a 95w TDP envelope.

And DirectX12 plays very nice with multiple cores.

Avatar image for Coseniath
Coseniath

3183

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#17  Edited By Coseniath
Member since 2004 • 3183 Posts
@ShadowDeathX said:

@horgen said:

@Coseniath said:
@horgen said:

If they can move up to sandy bridge levels then that is great! And if skylake is no major jump in performance, AMD is a good budget option again. I hope.

My only concern is that this is coming at 2016. Intel will release Skylake 14nm in a few months and probably will release Cannonlake 10nm at 2016.

I really hope seeing them provide sandybridge single core and by giving higher clocks to even reach Haswell.

Intel is that close to 10nm?

I highly doubt Intel will have 10nm in mass production until the fourth quarter of 2016 according some reports online. So Cannonlake will launch in the first half of 2017.

2015 = Broadwell and some Skylake.

2016 = Full Skylake Line-Up

2017 = Cannonlake.

Full Skylake is coming at September 2015.

We already have photos of the CPU and Z170 mobos.

Colorful Unveils First Skylake Z170 Chipset Based Motherboards – Features Socket LGA 1151, Officially Launching in September

Also Intel has plans to release 10nm in 2016:

Now if that changed...

Avatar image for horgen
horgen

127503

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#18 horgen  Moderator
Member since 2006 • 127503 Posts

@Coseniath said:

Full Skylake is coming at September 2015.

We already have photos of the CPU and Z170 mobos.

Colorful Unveils First Skylake Z170 Chipset Based Motherboards – Features Socket LGA 1151, Officially Launching in September

Also Intel has plans to release 10nm in 2016:

Now if that changed...

Damn it. I hoped AMD could catch up with Intel a little. Btw they don't plan for Cannon Lake on desktop?

@ShadowDeathX: Yay for AMD

Avatar image for ShadowDeathX
ShadowDeathX

11698

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 4

User Lists: 0

#19 ShadowDeathX
Member since 2006 • 11698 Posts

@Coseniath: Cool Cool

Avatar image for Coseniath
Coseniath

3183

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#20  Edited By Coseniath
Member since 2004 • 3183 Posts

@horgen, @ShadowDeathX: I am actually very excited for 2016.

We are talking for a year that we will have Zen and Cannonlake, Arctic Islands and Pascal!!!

Avatar image for MlauTheDaft
MlauTheDaft

5189

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#21 MlauTheDaft
Member since 2011 • 5189 Posts

I hope it's just somewhat competetive.

Avatar image for ShadowDeathX
ShadowDeathX

11698

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 4

User Lists: 0

#23  Edited By ShadowDeathX
Member since 2006 • 11698 Posts

Unexpected. Was thinking that AMD would stop making dedicated CPUs and have all their lineup with APUs.

Guess not. Summit Ridge is a full CPU.

Avatar image for Coseniath
Coseniath

3183

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#25 Coseniath
Member since 2004 • 3183 Posts
@ShadowDeathX said:

Unexpected. Was thinking that AMD would stop making dedicated CPUs and have all their lineup with APUs.

Guess not. Summit Ridge is a full CPU.

Yeah thats a great thing.

I hate it when companies (hello Intel) waste mm2 space for IGP in a $200 (or more) CPU which they know that we will add a dedicated GPU.

And from what I am reading those 8 cores will be 8 true cores like Intel's and Phenom's.

AMD's CPU future is starting to look bright again...

ps: Judgin by today's FX prices, imagine a 4 core (sandybridge lvl) CPU for only $100-110!!!

Avatar image for 04dcarraher
04dcarraher

23829

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 0

#26  Edited By 04dcarraher  Online
Member since 2004 • 23829 Posts
@Coseniath said:

AMD's CPU future is starting to look bright again...

ps: Judgin by today's FX prices, imagine a 4 core (sandybridge lvl) CPU for only $100-110!!!

Doubt they would be that low at release. Most likely $150-170 for quadcore's, hexacore's ~$200-230, 8 core ~$270-$330. If they are truly on par with 2nd or 3rd gen icore's clock per clock Those prices are still great for the performance and will make AMD more stable and competitive. They cant undercut themselves like they have been trying to stir up sales on their cpus and gpus anymore.

Avatar image for Coseniath
Coseniath

3183

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#27 Coseniath
Member since 2004 • 3183 Posts
@04dcarraher said:
@Coseniath said:

AMD's CPU future is starting to look bright again...

ps: Judgin by today's FX prices, imagine a 4 core (sandybridge lvl) CPU for only $100-110!!!

Doubt they would be that low at release. Most likely $150-170 for quadcore's, hexacore's ~$200-230, 8 core ~$270-$330. If they are truly on par with 2nd or 3rd gen icore's clock per clock Those prices are still great for the performance and will make AMD more stable and competitive. They cant undercut themselves like they have been trying to stir up sales on their cpus and gpus anymore.

Well you are probably right, since AMD is a company too and companies have one goal. Profit... :P

Avatar image for deactivated-59d151f079814
deactivated-59d151f079814

47239

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 0

#28 deactivated-59d151f079814
Member since 2003 • 47239 Posts

I just hope they update their motherboard features.. Stuff like Intel Rapid Storage Technology are amazingly cool features that AMD just doesn't have.

Avatar image for insane_metalist
insane_metalist

7797

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 42

User Lists: 0

#29  Edited By insane_metalist
Member since 2006 • 7797 Posts

If that's true then they just might make some profit. It's good to see that at least AMD is doing something.

Avatar image for Kjranu
Kjranu

1802

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 4

User Lists: 0

#30 Kjranu
Member since 2012 • 1802 Posts

I'm on 8350, and I was considering switching to a 4790 (or rather, Skylake this fall) but this Zen has me intrigued. I think I'll hold off now.

Avatar image for blaznwiipspman1
blaznwiipspman1

16539

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#31  Edited By blaznwiipspman1
Member since 2007 • 16539 Posts

@ShadowDeathX:

if AMD can make even a half decent CPU compared to intel, then my next cpu purchase will be an AMD one. The way things are going, it won't take long for them to go out of business and intel is left as the only option. Honestly, if AMD goes bankrupt then the best case would be if a company like google picks them up and turns them around. I don't trust the US government to step in and keep the market competitive so the chances of a company other than intel/nvidia buying the scraps is very small.

Avatar image for alucrd2009
Alucrd2009

787

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 7

User Lists: 0

#32  Edited By Alucrd2009
Member since 2007 • 787 Posts

@Chatch09: HAHAHA Respect mate ^^ , I love metal and Love AMD . :))

Avatar image for ShadowDeathX
ShadowDeathX

11698

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 4

User Lists: 0

#33  Edited By ShadowDeathX
Member since 2006 • 11698 Posts

We have a new set of images. Zen can do 40% more instructions per clock, at the same clock speed, as Excavator.

So this should put it around Ivy Bridge speeds and maybe even close to Haswell speeds if AMD can get a higher clock?? And then they are having 8 cores on this thing?!!

Avatar image for Xtasy26
Xtasy26

5582

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 53

User Lists: 0

#34  Edited By Xtasy26
Member since 2008 • 5582 Posts

@thehig1 said:

I assume for me to upgrade to AMD's new chip id have to get a new motherboard. Its not likely this will still be an Am3+ chip is it ?

Looks like their are going to use AM4.

Avatar image for Xtasy26
Xtasy26

5582

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 53

User Lists: 0

#35 Xtasy26
Member since 2008 • 5582 Posts

@horgen said:
@Coseniath said:

Full Skylake is coming at September 2015.

We already have photos of the CPU and Z170 mobos.

Colorful Unveils First Skylake Z170 Chipset Based Motherboards – Features Socket LGA 1151, Officially Launching in September

Also Intel has plans to release 10nm in 2016:

Now if that changed...

Damn it. I hoped AMD could catch up with Intel a little. Btw they don't plan for Cannon Lake on desktop?

Just because they will be a node behind doesn't mean that they will be far behind. In the Pentium 4 days intel was a node ahead but their Athlon 64/X2 was still spanking the Pentium 4s until intel came up with Core 2 series.

Avatar image for Coseniath
Coseniath

3183

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#36  Edited By Coseniath
Member since 2004 • 3183 Posts
@ShadowDeathX said:

We have a new set of images. Zen can do 40% more instructions per clock, at the same clock speed, as Excavator.

So this should put it around Ivy Bridge speeds and maybe even close to Haswell speeds if AMD can get a higher clock?? And then they are having 8 cores on this thing?!!

If this is real then AMD will be back in gaming CPU market!

I don't believe that the "more" core tactics will help them against Intel but the key here is that now that they have a competitive product in their hands, they can hit Intel where it hurts.

Price!

I wouldn't be surprised if we will see i5 3570K lvls of performance at only $150!!!

Avatar image for horgen
horgen

127503

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#37 horgen  Moderator
Member since 2006 • 127503 Posts

@Xtasy26 said:

Just because they will be a node behind doesn't mean that they will be far behind. In the Pentium 4 days intel was a node ahead but their Athlon 64/X2 was still spanking the Pentium 4s until intel came up with Core 2 series.

They are already far behind them in performance. If they were closer, I wouldn't worry so much about it, but now the distance between them is still huge.

Avatar image for Xtasy26
Xtasy26

5582

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 53

User Lists: 0

#38  Edited By Xtasy26
Member since 2008 • 5582 Posts

@horgen said:
@Xtasy26 said:

Just because they will be a node behind doesn't mean that they will be far behind. In the Pentium 4 days intel was a node ahead but their Athlon 64/X2 was still spanking the Pentium 4s until intel came up with Core 2 series.

They are already far behind them in performance. If they were closer, I wouldn't worry so much about it, but now the distance between them is still huge.

Yes. But now the Global Foundries which was spun off from AMD has gotten much better at moving to new nodes and is much closer to node manufacturing to intel than it was in a half a decade. I can't help emphasize how important that is. With the help of Samsung, Global Foundries is doing good tape out of 14nm. Intel just recently this year started 14nm with Broadwell. intel has been king of the hill in node manufacturing for a long time only recently has Global Foundries has vastly closed the gap with intel and I hope they continue to do so as this has been one of the main reasons that intel has had a significant advantage with their ability to move to new nodes and migrate their products quickly to new nodes.

Since Global Foundries is what AMD uses to make their CPUs hopefully AMD will be able to move to new nodes more quickly going forward from Zen similar to what they have been able to do on their GPU side.

Avatar image for achilles614
achilles614

5310

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#39  Edited By achilles614
Member since 2005 • 5310 Posts

@Xtasy26 said:

Global Foundries is doing good tape out of 14nm. Intel just recently this year started 14nm with Broadwell. intel has been king of the hill in node manufacturing for a long time only recently has Global Foundries has vastly closed the gap with intel and I hope they continue to do so as this has been one of the main reasons that intel has had a significant advantage with their ability to move to new nodes and migrate their products quickly to new nodes.

Just because GF reaches the same half-pitch/gate/whatever length as Intel doesn't mean GF14nm = Intel14nm/gap closed. Likewise not all finfets are equal. It's really hard to characterize a process by a single number. All that can be really said is a chip on GF node (n) should in general be faster than on GF node (n-1), hard to say much in relation to Intel process without knowing many details.

Even if AMD got up to the latest node with Intel, I don't think it will be enough. It's not enough to have access to a new process but you need experience doing the layout for that process, otherwise your chip won't be very good. Why do you think Intel does tick-tock? Make the micro-arch then learn the new process by porting the old design to new process. New nodes are very tricky, things get smaller and process variation becomes even more of a PITA.

I guess I just don't think the jump to a new process will be enough to close the gap, even with a new uarch...it's not like Intel is sleeping on the process/uarch side either, it's like trying to hit a moving target. AMD really has a big challenge ahead of them.

Avatar image for deactivated-6127ced9bcba0
deactivated-6127ced9bcba0

31700

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#40 deactivated-6127ced9bcba0
Member since 2006 • 31700 Posts

Still never going to switch to AMD.

Avatar image for Xtasy26
Xtasy26

5582

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 53

User Lists: 0

#41 Xtasy26
Member since 2008 • 5582 Posts

@achilles614 said:
@Xtasy26 said:

Global Foundries is doing good tape out of 14nm. Intel just recently this year started 14nm with Broadwell. intel has been king of the hill in node manufacturing for a long time only recently has Global Foundries has vastly closed the gap with intel and I hope they continue to do so as this has been one of the main reasons that intel has had a significant advantage with their ability to move to new nodes and migrate their products quickly to new nodes.

Just because GF reaches the same half-pitch/gate/whatever length as Intel doesn't mean GF14nm = Intel14nm/gap closed. Likewise not all finfets are equal. It's really hard to characterize a process by a single number. All that can be really said is a chip on GF node (n) should in general be faster than on GF node (n-1), hard to say much in relation to Intel process without knowing many details.

Even if AMD got up to the latest node with Intel, I don't think it will be enough. It's not enough to have access to a new process but you need experience doing the layout for that process, otherwise your chip won't be very good. Why do you think Intel does tick-tock? Make the micro-arch then learn the new process by porting the old design to new process. New nodes are very tricky, things get smaller and process variation becomes even more of a PITA.

I guess I just don't think the jump to a new process will be enough to close the gap, even with a new uarch...it's not like Intel is sleeping on the process/uarch side either, it's like trying to hit a moving target. AMD really has a big challenge ahead of them.

You are right, there are other factors at play. However, I would rather have them close as opposed to several nodes behind. I am just hoping that they will at least reach Ivy Bridge performance or Haswell at best.

Avatar image for Coseniath
Coseniath

3183

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#42 Coseniath
Member since 2004 • 3183 Posts
@Xtasy26 said:

You are right, there are other factors at play. However, I would rather have them close as opposed to several nodes behind. I am just hoping that they will at least reach Ivy Bridge performance or Haswell at best.

From their statements I believe they will have Haswell performance per core with a few MHz higher. 40% more performance is over Excavator, not Piledriver... So the jump will be higher.

Avatar image for deactivated-579f651eab962
deactivated-579f651eab962

5404

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#43 deactivated-579f651eab962
Member since 2003 • 5404 Posts

Moved