Why ordinary men find Feminism infuriating

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#51 Edited by dave123321 (33979 posts) -
#52 Posted by HuggyBear1020 (456 posts) -

@dave123321: As in, women who think they should still get special treatment for being female. For example, women get an unfair advantage in child custody disputes, and if both parents are equally fit and willing to take the kids, the mom still gets primary custody 90% of the time. Also, the military has dual standards for fitness requirements. If a man has to be able to do x number of pushups and situps and run 2 miles under x number of minutes do be fit for a job, then a woman should have to do the same because of the whole equal pay for equal work argument. Things like that.

#53 Posted by redstorm72 (4535 posts) -

Current feminism is a joke. They are no longer fighting for equal rights or status, they are trying to take men down a peg. Instead of trying to make men a part of the solution, they make us feel like crap for even existing. Honestly, I get tired of it. You can blame men for all the bad they have done, but you also got to give them credit for all the good they have done (scientific advancements, modern medicine, etc).

Nobody with half a brain would stand in the way of women being equal to men, but by and large the battle for feminism has been won (in the west). It's up to women now to maximize their rights. For example, I have heard several times from feminists how women are just as brave as men, yet even with aggressive recruitment campaigns and far lower standards, women do not even crack 10% of personnel in combat roles in the military in Canada and the RCMP can't reach its target of 30% of female personnel after years of targeted recruitment. Naturally feminists blame sexist attitudes, but if you want people to change their minds you have to start forcing yourself into the work place. You can't change the world by blaming everyone in your way, you have to make the change yourself.

#54 Posted by Barbariser (6724 posts) -

@dave123321: As in, women who think they should still get special treatment for being female. For example, women get an unfair advantage in child custody disputes, and if both parents are equally fit and willing to take the kids, the mom still gets primary custody 90% of the time. Also, the military has dual standards for fitness requirements. If a man has to be able to do x number of pushups and situps and run 2 miles under x number of minutes do be fit for a job, then a woman should have to do the same because of the whole equal pay for equal work argument. Things like that.

You have a point with the military argument, but the custody thing is literally the opposite of the truth for the U.S.. Fathers are far more likely to win primary/joint custody than mothers provided that they seek it and courts consistently apply higher standards against mothers when deciding between the two. Combine this with the fact that fathers tend to have a significantly higher income level (making it far easier for them to acquire legal representation) and the reality is that in custody issues women are at a horrid disadvantage.

Posts like these are proof that we still need the feminist movement. People are eager to declare discrimination to be over, eager to blame women for problems caused by systemic sexism, and eager to take real situations in which women are given the short end of the stick and twist them around to make it look like men are the actual victims. There is no solving gender inequality if people keep pretending that it doesn't exist.

ProblemsProblems, a book attributed to Aristotle

#55 Posted by ferrari2001 (16874 posts) -

Holy shit on a stick that's long. And I don't find the conception of feminism infuriating I do however find radical feminism infuriating which is usually what we see when we talk about feminism.

#56 Edited by deeliman (2422 posts) -

I am probably a feminist, but I never call myself one because I don't want to be associated with the radical ones who are just anti-men.

#57 Edited by jcknapier711 (380 posts) -

@Barbariser: What a bunch of nonsense. Ok, so that women who asserted their rule were oppressed because some rule said that they couldn't ruled but they ruled anyway and because of that women have had it so much harder then men because we kept them down? Not only are you twisting my words around and not making any friggin sense, you are either rewriting history or you are repeating a false one.

And you're wrong. Women are being hired by employers at a greater rate.

Again, it has nothing to do with being repressed or repressing. It has to do with the natural order of things. In the past century or so technology has made the natural order less relevant so we get preposterous notions such as feminism.

#58 Posted by Morphic (4342 posts) -

I am all for womens rights. I treat them all with respect. The only feminists I have issues wit are the ones that take it to the EXTREEEEME.

#59 Edited by Barbariser (6724 posts) -

@jcknapier711 said:

@Barbariser: What a bunch of nonsense. Ok, so that women who asserted their rule were oppressed because some rule said that they couldn't ruled but they ruled anyway and because of that women have had it so much harder then men because we kept them down? Not only are you twisting my words around and not making any friggin sense, you are either rewriting history or you are repeating a false one.

And you're wrong. Women are being hired by employers at a greater rate.

Again, it has nothing to do with being repressed or repressing. It has to do with the natural order of things. In the past century or so technology has made the natural order less relevant so we get preposterous notions such as feminism.

Man I have no idea where the fuck you got that from. I did not claim all monarchies prevent women from ruling, I said that most prefer male rulers over female and some do not allow women to rule. I have literally never heard of a historical monarchy where women were preferred or held equal to men. To claim that this is not true is to be utterly ignorant of history and the way monarchies treated the two genders.

This is easily reflected in your two examples - Victoria only gained the throne because her brothers died, and men being selected over women was literally written into the U.K.'s primogeniture laws until 2011. Cleopatra married her brother to acquire joint rulership, was kicked off the throne and had to wage war against him by convincing the Romans to help her out - in Egyptian law, men were preferred over women again. Seriously, study these examples a bit more closely. They are pretty good examples that women had bigger barriers than men and that only exceptionally determined, lucky and/or talented women have been able to actually take positions of power.

Okay, proof that women are "being hired by employers at a greater rate"? And if women demand lower wages, why aren't employers replacing the more demanding and more expensive male workers with female ones? Your technology and nature argument explains fuck all. In what way does it explain why women were unable to vote in almost all nations until the mid to late 20th century? Or the preference/exclusivity of men in holding positions of power and leadership? How was biology even remotely relevant in women not having suffrage?

#60 Posted by GreySeal9 (24189 posts) -

lol at jcknapier711. What planet do you live on, dawg?

#61 Edited by GreySeal9 (24189 posts) -

@Aljosa23 said:

Not reading that but to answer the topic title: don't know. Hilariously enough those that are "anti-feminist" are usually sad and pathetic virgins so it might have to do with their failures with women.

I wouldn't be surprised if that explained the ridiculous manbabyish attitudes towards women (and feminism) that are so prevalent on GameSpot.

#62 Edited by WAJ (730 posts) -

The problem with quite a lot of modern "feminists" is that they are more Misandrist than actual feminist. Feminism should be about equality for women. Misandrists basically just hate men.

#63 Posted by Flubbbs (3053 posts) -

Feminism is a mental disorder

#64 Posted by MakeMeaSammitch (3817 posts) -

I kinda feel like feminists become feminists because they are too: ugly, stupid, fat, annoying, to get a decent guy so they just rage at males.

#65 Edited by Strakha (1786 posts) -

There are many types of feminists. Some very bad and some not so bad. I haven't figured out these forums yet. The following is supposed to go above each caption.

Normal

Sassy

Persecution complex sufferers

And last but not least. The dreaded Feminazi

#66 Edited by Articuno76 (18773 posts) -

@redstorm72 said:

Current feminism is a joke. They are no longer fighting for equal rights or status, they are trying to take men down a peg. Instead of trying to make men a part of the solution, they make us feel like crap for even existing. Honestly, I get tired of it. You can blame men for all the bad they have done, but you also got to give them credit for all the good they have done (scientific advancements, modern medicine, etc).

Nobody with half a brain would stand in the way of women being equal to men, but by and large the battle for feminism has been won (in the west). It's up to women now to maximize their rights. For example, I have heard several times from feminists how women are just as brave as men, yet even with aggressive recruitment campaigns and far lower standards, women do not even crack 10% of personnel in combat roles in the military in Canada and the RCMP can't reach its target of 30% of female personnel after years of targeted recruitment. Naturally feminists blame sexist attitudes, but if you want people to change their minds you have to start forcing yourself into the work place. You can't change the world by blaming everyone in your way, you have to make the change yourself.

You know I think 'current feminism' has become an extremely broad term and no one really knows what it is (in my OP I meant it in the broadest sense). And there are several sets of self-proclaimed feminists who all use it to mean different things. For some it is a flag for them to fight wage disputes under in the corporate world, for others it is fighting for education for girls in the 3rd world, for others yet it is simply taking grievances that come about from inter-sex relations and blowing them up into something bigger and some (though many will deny it) are just man-haters. They all tie together in one large group because at the end of the day they agree on some big common points and choose not to disassociate themselves from each other.

When I say feminism doesn't disassociate with itself I mean that extremism in feminism is largely ignored as long as the general message (or parts of the message) are consistent between the different factions. I've always thought that feminism should follow the example set by how Islam disassociates itself from extremism: the moment an action occurs that isn't in accordance with their religion (normally a terrorist act) they come out and state in no uncertain terms that they do not associate with the terrorists or support their actions (even if the terrorists might associate with them). As it stands feminism not only fails to distance itself from extremist sentiment but it chooses to ignore that it even exists (with the exception of when it is presented with a contradiction. But almost never pro-actively). It would be like if the Islamic community responded to a bombing with 'bomb? What bomb? We don't know no bomb'. And that convinces nobody.

This is why many anti-feminists (as distinct from chauvinism) hate feminism and many feminists argue vehemently that feminism is not what they think it is at all. The truth is they are both right in a way.

On your second point. I think there is still a little way to go in the corporate world but I would say that I do worry that feminists sometimes take anything that isn't an equal 50/50 split as an example of sexism. I think that is based on the fact that a lot of feminists simply don't acknowledge differences between the sexes that lead to different behaviours and varying levels of interest in certain fields.

Fields having uneven (even heavily one-sided) ratios that favour one sex isn't a big deal unless the sex that isn't getting represented is actually expressing interest in the field (surveys on which subject someone would like to major in before starting university could be used to collate that data) and is shown to have the pre-requisite skills to get into it (or the ability to learn the skills if they are aiming to get onto a course).

#67 Edited by Renevent42 (5179 posts) -

Speaking of women in the military:

http://www.npr.org/2013/12/27/257363943/marines-most-female-recruits-dont-meet-new-pullup-standard

I have two daughters and want them to have the best opportunities for success, with that said, in my mind there are physiological differences between the majority of men and women. We are simply not created equal. That doesn't mean women should be discriminated against for simply having a vagina, at the same time I don't see every discrepancy between men and women as necessarily being due to women being oppressed.

#68 Posted by Jacanuk (4330 posts) -

If you believe women deserve the same rights, status, pay and privileges that men have always received, you're a feminist.

If you don't, you're a time-traveler from the 1910s.

You are forgetting something here. Its equal pay for equal work, so if a man moves 1000 boxes in 8 hours then the women have to move 1000 in 8 hours to get the same pay, otherwise it's being a feminist moron.

Other than that sure women needs the same rights and privileges

#69 Edited by Jacanuk (4330 posts) -

I read the whole thing so more people should also do it

Congrats you want a lollipop ;)

#70 Posted by Diablo-B (4032 posts) -

Lol. I started reading that on my phone. After the 10th paragraph I started scrolling down and to my surprise there was 40 more paragraphs to go.

But from what I read I liked where it was going.

#71 Posted by dave123321 (33979 posts) -

@Jacanuk: you are so out of your element

#72 Posted by Nick3306 (2573 posts) -

I'm all for equal rights but much of the feminists i see today are not for total equal rights. They are for equal rights where it benefits them. Women fought so hard to be allowed in combat roles in the US military, yet when I go around saying women should also have to sign up for the draft at 18 years of age, 99% of the women I talk to say that's terrible and they would never support it. If you want equality you have to take all of it, not just the parts of it that benefit you.

#73 Posted by Nibroc420 (13567 posts) -

Feminism =/= Gender Equality.

/thread.

#74 Posted by LostProphetFLCL (17265 posts) -

I think the major issue is that, just like the animal rights movement, the feminist movement has essentially been hijacked by extremist morons who forcibly shove their way to the forefront and are way louder than the actually sane people in the movement.

With animal rights we have the absolute pieces of shit PETA yelling louder than everyone else in the room, and with feminism we got dumb bitches like Anita Sarkessian taking all the attention.

I am all for equal rights for women and am very much a supporter of fair treatment of animals, but people like Anita and organizations like PETA piss me off to no end and I think both just need to shut their damn mouths and fade into obscurity.

#75 Posted by Nibroc420 (13567 posts) -

I think the major issue is that, just like the animal rights movement, the feminist movement has essentially been hijacked by extremist morons who forcibly shove their way to the forefront and are way louder than the actually sane people in the movement.

With animal rights we have the absolute pieces of shit PETA yelling louder than everyone else in the room, and with feminism we got dumb bitches like Anita Sarkessian taking all the attention.

I am all for equal rights for women and am very much a supporter of fair treatment of animals, but people like Anita and organizations like PETA piss me off to no end and I think both just need to shut their damn mouths and fade into obscurity.

People who're fighting for Gender equality, wouldn't lump themselves in with MRA or Feminist Groups.

#76 Posted by Makhaidos (1613 posts) -

@Nick3306 said:

I'm all for equal rights but much of the feminists i see today are not for total equal rights. They are for equal rights where it benefits them. Women fought so hard to be allowed in combat roles in the US military, yet when I go around saying women should also have to sign up for the draft at 18 years of age, 99% of the women I talk to say that's terrible and they would never support it. If you want equality you have to take all of it, not just the parts of it that benefit you.

To be fair, nobody should have to sign up for the draft because the draft is bullshit.

#77 Edited by Nibroc420 (13567 posts) -

nobody should have to sign up for the draft

No-one has EVER "signed up" for a draft.

#78 Edited by Makhaidos (1613 posts) -

Speaking of women in the military:

http://www.npr.org/2013/12/27/257363943/marines-most-female-recruits-dont-meet-new-pullup-standard

I have two daughters and want them to have the best opportunities for success, with that said, in my mind there are physiological differences between the majority of men and women. We are simply not created equal. That doesn't mean women should be discriminated against for simply having a vagina, at the same time I don't see every discrepancy between men and women as necessarily being due to women being oppressed.

You're drawing a false conclusion here. As the article you linked to states, it's perfectly possible for women to meet (and exceed) the new standard--the problem lies with the training they're receiving, not with their physiology.

#79 Posted by Makhaidos (1613 posts) -

@Makhaidos said:

nobody should have to sign up for the draft

No-one has EVER "signed up" for a draft.

Having a gerg moment, are we?

#80 Posted by Nibroc420 (13567 posts) -

@Nibroc420 said:
@Makhaidos said:

nobody should have to sign up for the draft

No-one has EVER "signed up" for a draft.

Having a gerg moment, are we?

I enjoy pointing out when people are posting about things they're completely ignorant to.

#81 Edited by Makhaidos (1613 posts) -

@Nibroc420 said:

@Makhaidos said:

@Nibroc420 said:
@Makhaidos said:

nobody should have to sign up for the draft

No-one has EVER "signed up" for a draft.

Having a gerg moment, are we?

I enjoy pointing out when people are posting about things they're completely ignorant to.

"Things to which they're completely ignorant." As long as you're being superior and pedantic, you may as well use the correct prepositional placement.

#82 Edited by Nibroc420 (13567 posts) -

@Nibroc420 said:

@Makhaidos said:

@Nibroc420 said:
@Makhaidos said:

nobody should have to sign up for the draft

No-one has EVER "signed up" for a draft.

Having a gerg moment, are we?

I enjoy pointing out when people are posting about things they're completely ignorant to.

"Things to which they're completely ignorant." As long as you're being superior, you may as well use the correct prepositional placement.

Because there's only one way that sentence can be formed.

Oh well, you thought the draft was some voluntary thing which people "signed up for"

#83 Posted by Makhaidos (1613 posts) -

@Makhaidos said:

@Nibroc420 said:

@Makhaidos said:

@Nibroc420 said:
@Makhaidos said:

nobody should have to sign up for the draft

No-one has EVER "signed up" for a draft.

Having a gerg moment, are we?

I enjoy pointing out when people are posting about things they're completely ignorant to.

"Things to which they're completely ignorant." As long as you're being superior, you may as well use the correct prepositional placement.

Because there's only one way that sentence can be formed.

Oh well, you thought the draft was some voluntary thing which people "signed up for"

"Thing for which people signed up." Try and keep up with me here.

#84 Posted by Nibroc420 (13567 posts) -

@Nibroc420 said:

@Makhaidos said:

@Nibroc420 said:

@Makhaidos said:

@Nibroc420 said:
@Makhaidos said:

nobody should have to sign up for the draft

No-one has EVER "signed up" for a draft.

Having a gerg moment, are we?

I enjoy pointing out when people are posting about things they're completely ignorant to.

"Things to which they're completely ignorant." As long as you're being superior, you may as well use the correct prepositional placement.

Because there's only one way that sentence can be formed.

Oh well, you thought the draft was some voluntary thing which people "signed up for"

"Thing for which people signed up." Try and keep up with me here.

That doesn't even sound right...

#85 Edited by plageus900 (1042 posts) -

@Makhaidos said:

nobody should have to sign up for the draft

No-one has EVER "signed up" for a draft.

You know what he meant.

And yes, selective service is bullshit.

#86 Edited by Makhaidos (1613 posts) -

That doesn't even sound right...

And yet, somehow, everybody knows what the fuck you meant. Just like they do with what I said. So either stop being as pedantic as a boarding school grammar teacher or start being consistent with your pedantry.

#87 Posted by stuff238 (618 posts) -

I read the whole thing. Good read.

I just get angry whenever I hear "Stop violence against woman" campaigns. You want equality? Make it "Stop violence against people" or simply "Stop domestic abuse". Men get abused all the time. It's a silent crime that woman get away with all the time.

And truthfully, let's ask all the woman of domestic abuse the simple question: "Why did he hit you?". I bet you a high percentage admit they "Pushed him by being a b****". The fact is, sometimes they need to be hit. Not hard. Just enough like you would a dog who's being bad. They don't understand that their illogical/overly emotional nagging is the most annoying thing a man can hear.

Also their is multiple forms of abuse a lot of woman do to men such as sexual abuse(withholding sex to get what she wants). Verbal abuse(nuff said). Financial abuse(She steals all the guys cash) and a few others I'm blanking out on but you get the point. It seams men react with violence while woman do every other form of abuse.

#88 Edited by Master_Live (14405 posts) -

@stuff238 said:

The fact is, sometimes they need to be hit. Not hard. Just enough like you would a dog who's being bad.

Good to know.

#89 Posted by Barbariser (6724 posts) -
@stuff238 said:

Also their is multiple forms of abuse a lot of woman do to men such as sexual abuse(withholding sex to get what she wants)

Holy fuck, I knew this post was basically shit after I read the "women talking is annoying and justifies being punched in the face" crap but this particular line is spectacularly dumb.

#90 Edited by Makhaidos (1613 posts) -

@stuff238 said:

And truthfully, let's ask all the woman of domestic abuse the simple question: "Why did he hit you?". I bet you a high percentage admit they "Pushed him by being a b****". The fact is, sometimes they need to be hit. Not hard. Just enough like you would a dog who's being bad. They don't understand that their illogical/overly emotional nagging is the most annoying thing a man can hear.

See, I was thinking your post was perfectly rational until I read this bullshit. Either you're trolling or you're one of the biggest dumbasses on Earth--no lie, people who think domestic abuse is ever justified under any circumstance (and people who compare women to dogs) are very near the top of my very long shit list.

#91 Posted by 4nationfury (606 posts) -

@Makhaidos: @Makhaidos:

@stuff238 said:

And truthfully, let's ask all the woman of domestic abuse the simple question: "Why did he hit you?". I bet you a high percentage admit they "Pushed him by being a b****". The fact is, sometimes they need to be hit. Not hard. Just enough like you would a dog who's being bad. They don't understand that their illogical/overly emotional nagging is the most annoying thing a man can hear.

See, I was thinking your post was perfectly rational until I read this bullshit. Either you're trolling or you're one of the biggest dumbasses on Earth--no lie, people who think domestic abuse is ever justified under any circumstance (and people who compare women to dogs) are very near the top of my very long shit list.

I'm with you. So far I've seen someone try to justify unequal treatment based on differing biology and another person try to justify domestic abuse. It's apparent that even in 2013, we haven't fully moved past sexism or abuse. Well, I'll admit I don't really support the extreme feminist views, but if we're talking about wanting equal treatment (which we all should be), then I'm proudly a feminist.

#92 Edited by Jacanuk (4330 posts) -

@Jacanuk: you are so out of your element

Ok, care to explain or did you just come with a random comment in a futile attempt to be funny?

#93 Posted by gamerguru100 (10572 posts) -

Holy shit on a stick that's long. And I don't find the conception of feminism infuriating I do however find radical feminism infuriating which is usually what we see when we talk about feminism.

This. I agree that women should have equal rights and opportunities as men, as well as get paid the same rate in jobs, but radical feminists are seriously hurting the image of feminism. Like redstorm said, they try to make men feel like crap just for existing, such as saying that we're a biological accident. Clearly they fail to take into account that only a man's sperm cell can fertilize a woman's egg and continue the species.

And then they spew out bullshit like saying there's a "rape culture". Please, anyone with two functioning brain cells and a conscience that's worth a fuck will agree that rape is terrible and that we don't worship it as a culture. Radical feminists seem to be focused on female supremacy rather than equality. Radicals may be a minority among contemporary feminists, but their loud mouthing is what people hear most, so feminism's image is under heavy fire, unfortunately.

#94 Posted by dave123321 (33979 posts) -

@Jacanuk: my first post was within a context that is based on past history. Just saying that stuff is subsurface

#95 Posted by Jacanuk (4330 posts) -

@Jacanuk: my first post was within a context that is based on past history. Just saying that stuff is subsurface

No idea what you are talking about "past history"?

But anyways your first post was still in need of a comical response, even tho it might have fallen short.

#96 Posted by dave123321 (33979 posts) -

I think in general people feel that I never read the first posts in topics and never really address the actual topics that the thread creator discusses even though I post in them a lot, which is largely true.

The reverse has happened now where people are largely just responding to the title and going off into their own ideas about the broader topic that the title suggests and not really engaging the points made in the OP.

#97 Posted by dave123321 (33979 posts) -

I don't think I know what the fuck

I'm saying anymore

#98 Posted by Barbariser (6724 posts) -

And then they spew out bullshit like saying there's a "rape culture". Please, anyone with two functioning brain cells and a conscience that's worth a fuck will agree that rape is terrible and that we don't worship it as a culture.

That is not what people mean by "rape culture". Seriously, if you're going to criticize something at least look up wikipedia to understand what it is talking about. Even in modern times we have instances of judges letting rapists go free and blaming victims for "dressing provocatively", people who think that women were only raped if they were virgins before/didn't get pregnant/were not drunk, .etc, and dudes saying "I'd hit that, what's the problem?" when hearing stories of 10 year old boys being raped by attractive female teachers. Yes, rape culture is fucking terrible for both male and female victims, it only benefits male and female rapists.

Rape culture simply describes the attitude of society that trivializes, justifies and/or ignores the extent and trauma of rape, often by placing responsibility on women for what happens to them or arguing that women owe sex to men (this logic is why marital rape was only recently criminalized). Just look at stuff238 who literally believes that women are being abusive by denying sex to their husbands, or this study that tells you that millions of Britons hold women accountable for sexual assaults that happen to them. The rape culture today may not be as strong or pervasive as it was 20 or 200 years ago, but it's still a pretty big fucking problem and it needs to be stamped out because it is hurting potentially millions of people around the globe every year.

#99 Posted by gamerguru100 (10572 posts) -

@gamerguru100 said:

And then they spew out bullshit like saying there's a "rape culture". Please, anyone with two functioning brain cells and a conscience that's worth a fuck will agree that rape is terrible and that we don't worship it as a culture.

That is not what people mean by "rape culture". Seriously, if you're going to criticize something at least look up wikipedia to understand what it is talking about. Even in modern times we have instances of judges letting rapists go free and blaming victims for "dressing provocatively", people who think that women were only raped if they were virgins before/didn't get pregnant/were not drunk, .etc, and dudes saying "I'd hit that, what's the problem?" when hearing stories of 10 year old boys being raped by attractive female teachers. Yes, rape culture is fucking terrible for both male and female victims, it only benefits male and female rapists.

Rape culture simply describes the attitude of society that trivializes, justifies and/or ignores the extent and trauma of rape, often by placing responsibility on women for what happens to them or arguing that women owe sex to men (this logic is why marital rape was only recently criminalized). Just look at stuff238 who literally believes that women are being abusive by denying sex to their husbands, or this study that tells you that millions of Britons hold women accountable for sexual assaults that happen to them. The rape culture today may not be as strong or pervasive as it was 20 or 200 years ago, but it's still a pretty big fucking problem and it needs to be stamped out because it is hurting potentially millions of people around the globe every year.

Damn, you schooled the shit out of me. Well, thanks for not being a total dick about it. :P That seems to be rare on OT.