Who invented maths and physics

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#1 Edited by Ariabed (1099 posts) -

Who formed the language of maths, and how is it, it can be used to unlock aome of the secrets of life?

#2 Posted by indzman (16426 posts) -

Issac Newton ^_^

#3 Edited by alim298 (1022 posts) -

They're discovered first then expressed in math language. Simple.

#4 Posted by Iszdope (9410 posts) -

Are you takin' the piss..?

#5 Edited by osirisx3 (1702 posts) -

jesus

#6 Posted by 4myAmuzumament (1743 posts) -

Physics has been around since the beginning; just like time and space.

#7 Edited by mattykovax (22693 posts) -

Math is language not laws, and can express most things as pure ideas. And physics just are the laws are definition not creation. I am stupid and I know this.

#8 Posted by Zelda99 (728 posts) -

@ariabed: What your asking could fill volumes. I'll talk about a bit of it. Math, as we call it was "invented" by the Arabic people several centuries ago. I put the " " because numbers and such have been around since as long as writing, before that time, but not the number 0, that was placed into the number line by the Arabic world and the quintessential mathematics that we use was born. You have to understand that physics as we call it, is a science that has been around for millenia. Countless people have worked and added to our knowledge of the field over those centuries and to ask when was physics born is a tricky question because that's like asking when science was born. It depends on many factors such as what one would consider physics and science. Would you consider the first man who looked at the stars and wondered what they were sciences? Because if so, then he invented it. We'll never know exactly who was the first to do so we can never know when it was invented exactly. The key physicists like Newton, Faraday, Ort, Halley and Einstein push physics forward more than most, but they did not invent the field. Its been around as long as scholars had pondered the universe. Every scientist just adding and subtracting to the field as time passes.

To answer your other question, physics is used to try and understand our world and our universe. Its as real as you and I. Its better to say physics was created rather than discovered, because physics is a field of science, not the phenomena that occur in the universe. You would not consider gravity physics, Its a natural occurrence in the universe, while the study of gravity and its effects on the universe would fit into the field of physics. Physics is used to understand why things happen in our world and in the universe. It only works if its proven and cannot be proved wrong. We know that gravity is 32 feet per second per second because we have never measured an item falling at another rate, and we never will. On the flip side, a lot of physics is theoretical, meaning it cant be proven right or wrong at the moment. As what happens why you cross the event horizon of a black hole and you will get a theoretical answer, until we can prove it for sure, it works to sate our curiosity and give us some understanding. Physics can and has also be wrong, even today we are discovering and rewriting many laws that we thought were true. That's why science channels motto of "question everything" rings so true.

#9 Posted by Ariabed (1099 posts) -

@Iszdope: if you haven't got something helpful to say don't say anything.

#10 Posted by mattykovax (22693 posts) -

@Zelda99:

Thanks for that. well said and clarified how I would think of the definition of created versus discovered. This so rarely gets said on the internet but thank you for showing me a different perspective that makes a lot of sense. Like I said I am no science whiz.

#11 Edited by Zelda99 (728 posts) -

@mattykovax: No problem, I'm a teacher at heart, plus I'm a firm believer in that "a good question deserves a good answer" and this was a good question.

#12 Edited by Horgen (109953 posts) -

@Zelda99 That explains it nicely. Thank you.

#13 Edited by Ariabed (1099 posts) -

@Zelda99: thanks for taking the time to explain that. I was wondering though how does a numerical value or symbol take the place of things in the universe so that the numbers and symbols in equations can be used to work things out about the universe mathematically? Hope that makes sense.

Also you said "that's why science channels motto of question everything rings so true"

When people do question sciences unproven theories, and laws, people that know a lot about science get very defensive and annoyed, especially on forums like this, you yourself have said that many of sciences laws that were once thought to be true have been re-written. Why are people of science ignorant to the fact that they might just be wrong?

By the way I'm not against science I'm not extremely knowledgeable about it as you might of guessed but I do like science.

#14 Posted by l34052 (3062 posts) -

@ariabed said:

Are the laws of physics man made or are they discovered? Who invented the language of maths? Did the maths of physics start out simple and get more complicated with time? How is it that it can be used to learn and even predict some of the secrets of life and the universe if it is a man made thing?

Physics were created at the moment of the big bang and mankind has been tryin to decypher and understand them ever since.

#15 Edited by Zelda99 (728 posts) -

@ariabed: Okay, first question, if your talking about something along the line of "E=Mc2" then the reason we have symbols to represent phenomena is to make them mathematically calculable. its gonna be near impossible to explain it because its something that only mathematical theorists or theoretical physicists use on a regular basis, but i'll try. Try to think of it like this: "E" represents energy, "M" represents mass. If we know what they are, we can use them in equations. Its the same as using X or Y in a math problem to represent a number. Its a theoretical number that changes depending on the principles or mathematical ways you are implementing those symbols. Symbols are used because there are a lot of things in the universe that are stable (to a certain point). For instance, we know that light travels at around 180,000 feet per second. We know that, so in a mathematical formula, we wouldn't put 180,000 multiply by x equals Y, we would put something like SPV times X equals Y, where SPV is the Speed of Light in a Vacuum. You get it? The symbols are just used to substitute known facts of math and science instead of having to write out the entire number or such your trying to discuss. Consider that some quantum mechanical problems can go on for pages and pages and pages. You wouldn't want to write the same long formula or number, so you substitute it with a symbol. Since math is universal, other scientist around the world will automatically know what your trying to say. Once we figure out the constant rate of something (like gravity or light year, or a chemical composition) we use symbols to represent them in equations. Its a mathematical version of a short cut instead of writing the entire damn thing out. Just look at Pi. Also consider that a lot of forces interact at once in the universe. Symbols just make life easier when trying to discover the gravitational pull of an object with a mass of 100,000,000 tons over a distance of .02 light years when in a parabolic orbit. Math is hard enough so symbols make life a little easier and equations a little shorter

As for your second question, scientist are still human. They have the same level of pride and stubbornness as the rest of us. Its hard to hear that your wrong, that's just what it is to be human. Scientist especially like to think they are always right because there is an otherwise unattainable level of success when you are considered a famous scientist and have all the answers. Famous scientist are remembered. They have schools and formulas and places and phenomena named after them. When every one thinks you are right and gives you all the glory you can handle and some hack comes out of no where are says your wrong, you wont take it kindly. That being said just remember scientist are human and prone to human mistakes and emotions.

#16 Edited by l34052 (3062 posts) -

@Zelda99 said:

@ariabed: ....For instance, we know that light travels at around 180,000 feet per second

I think you typed that wrong, light travels 186,000 miles in a second or 670m miles an hour

#17 Edited by Zelda99 (728 posts) -

@l34052: Your right, my mistake. I didn't look up the exact the number, i just remembered it was around 180,000 miles a second. Thanks for catching that.

#18 Posted by pyro1245 (291 posts) -

Well physics I guess you could say has always been there, though physics as we know it may have been different before the rapid expansion of the universe. Physics is just the name for how objects behave.

#19 Edited by mattykovax (22693 posts) -

I feel like I am learning something on gamespot. best thing since I have been back.

#20 Edited by Korvus (2403 posts) -

@Zelda99: I'm impressed that somebody around here still takes the time to write a polite, comprehensive and helpful reply. Even more impressed that you manage to do so in a way that is interesting enough for people to actually read a long post instead of posting their usual "TL;DR". Thank you for not giving up on us ;)

And my apologies if this comes across as rude but I can't help but to be a bit shocked by the fact that someone who writes such complex answers can repeatedly mistake "you're" with "your".

#21 Edited by Zelda99 (728 posts) -

@korvus: Thanks for the kudos, like i said earlier teaching people new things is something i enjoy. Also, It's not upsetting that you called me out on the your/you're thing. I'm a writer so when i write i have to take the time to get the grammar right. On a forum like this one and others, i don't have to think so much so i just let the words flow without thinking much about my grammar. It's a terrible habit i have been unable to break for years.

#22 Edited by Korvus (2403 posts) -

@Zelda99: It's understandable and I think that comes with trying to write long texts in a short amount of time; I do the same when I'm writing my books or even just a long email if I'm just trying to pour the ideas out; after it's written I go back and correct the spelling and grammar =P

It's just such a stark contrast between the complexity of your vocabulary and the mistakes in simple grammar. I thought it was curious, glad you didn't take offense =D

#23 Posted by Zelda99 (728 posts) -

@korvus: From one writer to another, i understand the pain you must be in when you read "your" instead of "you're" or "there" instead of "they're" it drives me nuts as well, unfortunately, revision and grammar have always been a week point in my writing, just can't seem to do it well. I guess that's why we have editors, for people like myself.

#24 Edited by Korvus (2403 posts) -

@Zelda99: My wife has the habit of stealing my drafts before I deem them "readable" so she's always my first proof-reader....invaluable indeed, especially considering I normally don't write in my native language and she's very good at spotting awkwardly written sentences ;-)

In any case, I'll stop derailing this thread before the TC calls the mods on me =P If you ever wish to discuss writing, feel free to send me a PM.

#25 Posted by Zelda99 (728 posts) -

@korvus: Sure thing, always a pleasure to meet another writer.

#26 Posted by playmynutz (5921 posts) -

Before Issac Newton, people were unbound to physics.

#27 Posted by lostrib (31623 posts) -

...are you high?

#28 Posted by foxhound_fox (86919 posts) -

Uh... a collaborative effort over thousands of years between many different people who observed the natural universe and derived equations to explain the behaviour of matter, it's motion and energy.

#29 Edited by Ariabed (1099 posts) -

@Zelda99: yeh I get what your saying about the symbols, so I guess the language of maths/physics would have started out small and with each new discovery/fact would add to the language.

Also I understand what your saying about scientist egos and all that, I pretty much new that, but what I was really talking about is people on forums like these who may know a lot about science, but its not their theories that are on the line, so they don't really have a reason to feel threatened by having the theories of actual scientist questioned or by having new theories introduced. I made a thread a while ago about biocentrism, I'd heard about it and thought it was a interesting theory, and I just wanted to see what OT thought about it, let's just say it wasn't very well received. Anyway I'm not going ask you to explain people's behaviour, it's just human nature I guess. Thanks again for schooling.

#30 Edited by wis3boi (30891 posts) -

No one knows

#31 Posted by evildead6789 (6893 posts) -

Math is language not laws, and can express most things as pure ideas. And physics just are the laws are definition not creation. I am stupid and I know this.

You're not as stupid as he is apparently lol

#32 Edited by wis3boi (30891 posts) -

No one knows

@Zelda99 said:

Scientist especially like to think they are always right because there is an otherwise unattainable level of success when you are considered a famous scientist and have all the answers.

biggest load of tripe ive read in weeks

#33 Posted by mattykovax (22693 posts) -

@mattykovax said:

Math is language not laws, and can express most things as pure ideas. And physics just are the laws are definition not creation. I am stupid and I know this.

You're not as stupid as he is apparently lol

I like to laugh....

#34 Edited by evildead6789 (6893 posts) -

@ariabed said:

Are the laws of physics man made or are they discovered? Who invented the language of maths? Did the maths of physics start out simple and get more complicated with time? How is it that it can be used to learn and even predict some of the secrets of life and the universe if it is a man made thing?

It's basic logic thinking. When you use symbols they can stand for anything

the correlation of these symbols to each other is what math is all about.

If you understand that certain correlation exist then you can build upon these new correlations and find new ones.

#35 Posted by thegerg (14398 posts) -
#36 Edited by Serraph105 (27579 posts) -

Physics were made up by the people who came up with public school because they hate children.

#38 Posted by Ariabed (1099 posts) -

@evildead6789: @mattykovax: there always has to be one or two class clowns who ruin things.

When did I say maths was laws? When?

Plus I never pretended to be very knowledgable on these subjects doesn't make me stupid.

I guess it's just like real life you can't avoid douche bags for long. Like a pair of smug school children.

#39 Posted by killzowned24 (7286 posts) -
@ariabed said:

@Zelda99: thanks for taking the time to explain that. I was wondering though how does a numerical value or symbol take the place of things in the universe so that the numbers and symbols in equations can be used to work things out about the universe mathematically? Hope that makes sense.

Also you said "that's why science channels motto of question everything rings so true"

When people do question sciences unproven theories, and laws, people that know a lot about science get very defensive and annoyed, especially on forums like this, you yourself have said that many of sciences laws that were once thought to be true have been re-written. Why are people of science ignorant to the fact that they might just be wrong?

By the way I'm not against science I'm not extremely knowledgeable about it as you might of guessed but I do like science.

Math was designed by humans, so of course it works by what we have observe, otherwise it wouldn't had got invented. The simplest thing is why 10 was major. It relates to how many digits you have on both hands, which is why digit has both meanings.

#40 Posted by Iszdope (9410 posts) -

@ariabed said:

@Iszdope: if you haven't got something helpful to say don't say anything.

Fanks!

Will take it under advisement.

#41 Posted by evildead6789 (6893 posts) -

@ariabed said:

@evildead6789: @mattykovax: there always has to be one or two class clowns who ruin things.

When did I say maths was laws? When?

Plus I never pretended to be very knowledgable on these subjects doesn't make me stupid.

I guess it's just like real life you can't avoid douche bags for long. Like a pair of smug school children.

i gave you the explanation to your problem

and you put me off because i make a joke?

#42 Posted by osan0 (12544 posts) -

well since its somewhat related (may have been answered already....apologies if so).

did or could what we call physics (since we werent around to discover it at the time) exist before the big bang? if it did then what, if anything, was here before the big bang?

if not then what brought it about?

my line of thinking is that it did exist before the big bang since something had to trigger it (no idea what though). what was here before is a poser though. i dont see why there would be just one thing in all existence that then goes boom and the universe begins its expansion.

but then again maybe the effect of the big bang is what has created physics (in the sense that an explosion creates a shockwave).

well thats my brain wheez for the evening :P.

#43 Posted by crazyguy111 (164 posts) -
#44 Edited by Wilfred_Owen (20799 posts) -

From outer spacccccccccccccceeeeeeeeee!

#45 Posted by Riverwolf007 (23397 posts) -

the debbil made it to trick you with thinkin.

#46 Edited by Ariabed (1099 posts) -
#47 Posted by lostrib (31623 posts) -
#48 Edited by Ariabed (1099 posts) -

@evildead6789: you were implying that I'm less than stupid for not knowing what you know even though your stupid, and your little buddy replied "your not as stupid as he is apparently lol" to which you replied "I love a good laugh "

So don't pretend to be sweet and innocent, and don't pretend it was just a harmless joke we don't know each other to be making jokes about one another.

Also when did I say maths was laws?

You said"Math is language not laws, and can express most things as pure ideas. And physics just are the laws are definition not creation. I am stupid and I know this."

Point out to me where I said maths was laws.

#49 Edited by Ariabed (1099 posts) -

@lostrib: then why are you asking if I'm high?, that comment adds nothing to the subject, it's not helpful in anyway it's just a sarcastic comment.

#50 Edited by lostrib (31623 posts) -

@ariabed said:

@lostrib: then why are you asking if I'm high?, that comment adds nothing to the subject, it's not helpful in anyway it's just a sarcastic comment.

"Who invented the language of maths?"

That just sounds like something a drunk or high person would ask