Which is Worse? The Extreme Right or Extreme Left?

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xdude85

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#1  Edited By xdude85
Member since 2006 • 6559 Posts

Lately the term "You're either with us or against us" seems to be more of a reality each day, with there being almost no middle-ground to take a political stance on. Plus with the presidential election coming up, it's only going to get uglier.

That being said, what do you guys think is worse for the country? The extreme right or extreme left?

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360mli

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#2 360mli
Member since 2009 • 339 Posts

the 2 party system is like a tug of war between doing the right thing and maximizing profits, the whole while nothing much gets done

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Archangel3371

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#3  Edited By Archangel3371
Member since 2004 • 43998 Posts

Well they're both bad of course, extremism isn't good for anyone, but I would say that right now the extreme right worries me the most.

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lamprey263

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#4 lamprey263
Member since 2006 • 44503 Posts

extreme right by far, in the politics, their ability (or inability) to govern

liberals have their annoying quirks too but by far the extreme right's politics are dangerous

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deactivated-59d151f079814

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#5  Edited By deactivated-59d151f079814
Member since 2003 • 47239 Posts

@xdude85 said:

Lately the term "You're either with us or against us" seems to be more of a reality each day, with there being almost no middle-ground to take a political stance on. Plus with the presidential coming up, it's only going to get uglier.

That being said, what do you guys think is worse for the country? The extreme right or extreme left?

They both are cancers in their own way.. Extreme left basically embraces Marxism on the social level, while the extreme right embraces theocratic government. It's actually extremely funny when you think about it when people labeled Bernie Sanders as the extreme left, when he in fact was the one that was attacked by the extreme left... As some one who voted democrat the majority of their adult life, I never thought I would see the democrat party basically have what I could only call their own tea party come into existence.

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360mli

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#6 360mli
Member since 2009 • 339 Posts

2020

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Maroxad

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#7 Maroxad
Member since 2007 • 23813 Posts

Far Left is arguably the worst.

But I am more bothered with the far right movements right now than I am with the far left movements.

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deactivated-5b1e62582e305

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#8 deactivated-5b1e62582e305
Member since 2004 • 30778 Posts

Extreme right, as evidenced by the current Republican party.

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mattbbpl

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#9  Edited By mattbbpl
Member since 2006 • 23010 Posts

Depends on how we're defining "extreme" in each case. There are those who believe Obama is a Socialist plant and that Paul Ryan is left of center.

If we're defining Obama as the extreme left and Trump as t he extreme right, I'll take the extreme left any day of the week. Although if we take a broader view of history and theory, the more pure forms of each are truly disastrous to the point that there's little reason to pick one over the other.

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mrbojangles25

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#11 mrbojangles25
Member since 2005 • 58159 Posts

Depends, everything in context.

Are we considering Obama as extreme left? If we are factoring in all of recent political history, Obama has far far far far far more in common with conservatives than he does with Marx and Lenin.

Is Trump an example of extreme right? Pretty sure he has been a democrat most of his life, and is more of a libertarian (fiscal conservative, social liberal) than he has been campaigning as.

But, to answer your question, I'd prefer extreme left. I'd happily pay 50% of my salary if I didn't have to worry about health and dental care, my kids (and everyone elses, for that matter; it's in everyone's interest to educate everyone) had the best education in the world, our food supply was better distributed, issues of poverty were better addressed, and so forth.

I think extreme-left worst-case scenario, I think a dystopia. Everyone is taken care of, the government thinks it knows best, and you generally have to watch yourself because if you say the wrong thing you in trouble!

I think extreme-right worse-case scenario, I think Mad Max-style post-societal earth. I think everyone will retreat into their homes, states will secede, economies and governments will fail, and everyone will have to fend for themselves.

I know those idiot Doomsday people are salivating at the thought of going all-out crazy in the latter option, but the simple truth is if you are concerned with life and living, you will take the extreme liberal option.

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dave123321

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#12 dave123321
Member since 2003 • 35553 Posts

Terminal cancers terminal cancer

Which is worse is irrelevant since they both cross the threshold where it fails to matter

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deactivated-5cf0a2e13dbde

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#13 deactivated-5cf0a2e13dbde
Member since 2005 • 12935 Posts

They are the same thing. A bunch of idiot reactionaries who refuse to open their minds to facts and other people's opinions. The only differences lie in what triggers each group.

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Mercenary848

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#14  Edited By Mercenary848
Member since 2007 • 12139 Posts

Equally bad. Right now it is the right that is more visible, but there are some leftist loons out there.

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deactivated-585ea4b128526

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#15 deactivated-585ea4b128526
Member since 2007 • 612 Posts

I'll take a bullet, which means the far right. The far left, aka North Korea, likes to use hungry dogs, and other horrific forms of torture.

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Stesilaus

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#16 Stesilaus
Member since 2007 • 4999 Posts

It's wrong to visualize the "far left" and the "far right" as lying at opposite ends of a one-dimensional scale, separated by moderates in between.

The far left and the far right have more in common with one another than with moderates, and a person can be transformed in step-wise fashion from one to the other without ever resembling a moderate.

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#17  Edited By foxhound_fox
Member since 2005 • 98532 Posts

They are one in the same thing. Too much control and not enough freedom.

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-TheSecondSign-

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#18 -TheSecondSign-
Member since 2007 • 9301 Posts

They're both pretty shit. I've lived around enough of both to say that they're all giant shitters.

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mark1974

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#19 mark1974
Member since 2015 • 4261 Posts

They are equally bad at the extremes. In America the extreme right is the bigger worry. We have never had an extreme left candidate but extreme right are fairly common.

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deactivated-5f9e3c6a83e51

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#20 deactivated-5f9e3c6a83e51
Member since 2004 • 57548 Posts

I dont give a shit about values. The problem with extremists is their methods. They are so fanatic in their beliefs that they are willing to use whatever tactics/methods to further their agenda. That usually results in violence.

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doubutsuteki

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#21  Edited By doubutsuteki
Member since 2004 • 3425 Posts

Centrum extremism, a.k.a. fascism/nazism (which is far-right socially, but centre economically) is the worst kind of politics.

The choice should be either anarchism/communism or capitalism.

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#22 mark1974
Member since 2015 • 4261 Posts

@doubutsuteki said:

Centrum extremism, a.k.a. fascism/nazism (which is far-right socially, but centre economically) is the worst kind of politics.

The choice should be either anarchism/communism or capitalism.

I don't think I like any of those choices. What about Scandinavia style socialist democracy? That seems pretty good. What is the appeal of anarchism? Sounds almost like libertarianism to me.

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#23  Edited By doubutsuteki
Member since 2004 • 3425 Posts
@mark1974 said:
@doubutsuteki said:

Centrum extremism, a.k.a. fascism/nazism (which is far-right socially, but centre economically) is the worst kind of politics.

The choice should be either anarchism/communism or capitalism.

I don't think I like any of those choices. What about Scandinavia style socialist democracy? That seems pretty good. What is the appeal of anarchism? Sounds almost like libertarianism to me.

The old Social Democratic parties are on the decline all across Europe if you haven't noticed - due to having adapted their politics increasingly in favour of acceptance of market liberalism over the last three decades.

Libertarianism/neo-liberalism/early 19th century liberalism is what motivated your old lady Thatcher.

I'm sure you're familiar with the punks if you were born in the 70s...

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#24 mark1974
Member since 2015 • 4261 Posts

@doubutsuteki: Yes I'm quite familiar with Punk. Anyways, which system do you like best out of those three? They are all very different.

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#25 doubutsuteki
Member since 2004 • 3425 Posts
@mark1974 said:

@doubutsuteki: Yes I'm quite familiar with Punk. Anyways, which system do you like best out of those three? They are all very different.

Out of which three?

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#26 mark1974
Member since 2015 • 4261 Posts

@doubutsuteki: You said the choice should be anarchism, communism, capitalism. I may be reading you wrong. Which system do you advocate?

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#27  Edited By doubutsuteki
Member since 2004 • 3425 Posts
@mark1974 said:

@doubutsuteki: You said the choice should be anarchism, communism, capitalism. I may be reading you wrong. Which system do you advocate?

Anarchism+communism, i.e. the absence of a system (capitalism).

By the way: The goal of the struggle for Social Democratic parties across the world have always been "the classless society", i.e. communism; common ownership of the means of production. They just adopted different tactics than the anarchists and the leninists did. Before they began adapting their politics to market liberalism, that is.

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deactivated-59d151f079814

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#28  Edited By deactivated-59d151f079814
Member since 2003 • 47239 Posts

@mrbojangles25 said:

Depends, everything in context.

Are we considering Obama as extreme left? If we are factoring in all of recent political history, Obama has far far far far far more in common with conservatives than he does with Marx and Lenin.

Is Trump an example of extreme right? Pretty sure he has been a democrat most of his life, and is more of a libertarian (fiscal conservative, social liberal) than he has been campaigning as.

But, to answer your question, I'd prefer extreme left. I'd happily pay 50% of my salary if I didn't have to worry about health and dental care, my kids (and everyone elses, for that matter; it's in everyone's interest to educate everyone) had the best education in the world, our food supply was better distributed, issues of poverty were better addressed, and so forth.

I think extreme-left worst-case scenario, I think a dystopia. Everyone is taken care of, the government thinks it knows best, and you generally have to watch yourself because if you say the wrong thing you in trouble!

I think extreme-right worse-case scenario, I think Mad Max-style post-societal earth. I think everyone will retreat into their homes, states will secede, economies and governments will fail, and everyone will have to fend for themselves.

I know those idiot Doomsday people are salivating at the thought of going all-out crazy in the latter option, but the simple truth is if you are concerned with life and living, you will take the extreme liberal option.

President Obama should be considered at best a centrist president, like Bill Clinton. Outside of some social issues, he has largely done very similar economic and military policies that American presidents have been doing for decades regardless of party affiliation.

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Gaming-Planet

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#29  Edited By Gaming-Planet
Member since 2008 • 21064 Posts

They're both a threat.

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#30 PraetorianMan
Member since 2011 • 2073 Posts

Extreme right is worse, simply because of how much more relevant it is to the current political climate in the western world.

Extreme left is completely dead everywhere outside of North Korea.

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doubutsuteki

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#31  Edited By doubutsuteki
Member since 2004 • 3425 Posts
@PraetorianMan said:

Extreme right is worse, simply because of how much more relevant it is to the current political climate in the western world.

Extreme left is completely dead everywhere outside of North Korea.

Leninism is pretty irrelevant these days, alright, and it mostly got a foothold in underdeveloped countries that hadn't even reached industrial capitalism yet.

North Korea was indeed the result of a revolution led by a Communist party with the support of workers and peasants, but the system in that country has little to do with communism in the original sense of worker's power - they have a president who is a corpse and something resembling a "royal family" with a strangehold on the party apparatus and the state machinery who steals the fruits of the labour of the workers in the country and sends them off to work abroad for foreign currency and then they take all the money for themselves, and the country is isolationist, nationalist and xenophobic.

Whether trade unions have power over labour is a much more interesting question than whatever a political party ruling a state with an iron fist calls itself. Because it is a necessary prerequisite for any kind of socialism, anarchism and communism to flourish - as well as the existence of abundance in goods to distribute to each according to their need. Something that was lacking in most of those countries where leninism had an influence. Needless to say, material scarcity generally doesn't bring out the best in people. Lenin himself made the mistake of thinking that an elite of intellectuals heading a Communist party could guarantee a progressive course for society despite lacking these necessary prerequisites that Marx was talking about, and he only realized shortly before he died the problem with corruption in the party apparatus. Prior to forming that party theory the slogan was "All power to the soviets!". Soviet = worker's council.

By the way, the workers' opposition were purged from the CPSU in 1921-1922 - Lenin and Trotsky were to the right-wing inside the party. The left opposition was purged beginning in 1927, the right-wing consisting most notably of Stalin. So it's an oversimplification to blame extreme left-wing politics for everything that has happened in the name of communism.

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#32 AND1SALTTAPE
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Political spectrum is more like a sphere than a line or a circle. You go too far on one side, and you end up on the other. There's no qualitative difference between the far left or the far right. They're both the intersection of each other.

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#33 doubutsuteki
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@and1salttape said:

Political spectrum is more like a sphere than a line or a circle. You go too far on one side, and you end up on the other. There's no qualitative difference between the far left or the far right. They're both the intersection of each other.

How come?

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Shmiity

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#34 Shmiity
Member since 2006 • 6625 Posts

I guess in theory far left is very dangerous- but in current US politics, most of us are scared of far-right religious whackos more than social justice liberals.

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#35  Edited By GreySeal9
Member since 2010 • 28247 Posts

Both are dangerous. Not to mention that the extreme left has been showing its true racist colors this election. But I think that even the mainstream right is poisonous and has few redeeming qualities whereas mainstream leftism can offer a positive vision for society. Any ideology that doesn't care much for people or is not compassionate just doesn't work for me and despite their insistence to the contrary and their window dressing, I've never seen any evidence that the rightwing, taken as a whole, cares about helping other people. There are plenty of good/kind conservative people but the ideology they subscribe to is callous, naive, archaic, and completely unable to deal with the demands of a complex, modern, and rapidly changing world.

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#36 GreySeal9
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@Shmiity said:

I guess in theory far left is very dangerous- but in current US politics, most of us are scared of far-right religious whackos more than social justice liberals.

Not really just in theory. There are plenty of historical examples of dangerous far leftism.

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#37 AND1SALTTAPE
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@doubutsuteki said:
@and1salttape said:

Political spectrum is more like a sphere than a line or a circle. You go too far on one side, and you end up on the other. There's no qualitative difference between the far left or the far right. They're both the intersection of each other.

How come?

Extreme left impedes freedom of speech in pretty much the same ways as the far right does. And then you have the example of BLM for an instance. Extreme left is totalitarianism in favor of minorities. Extreme right is totaltitarianism in favor of authorities. Etc.

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#38 Treflis
Member since 2004 • 13757 Posts

They're both equally bad.

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deactivated-5b1e62582e305

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#39 deactivated-5b1e62582e305
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@and1salttape said:
@doubutsuteki said:
@and1salttape said:

Political spectrum is more like a sphere than a line or a circle. You go too far on one side, and you end up on the other. There's no qualitative difference between the far left or the far right. They're both the intersection of each other.

How come?

Extreme left impedes freedom of speech in pretty much the same ways as the far right does. And then you have the example of BLM for an instance. Extreme left is totalitarianism in favor of minorities. Extreme right is totaltitarianism in favor of authorities. Etc.

lol you lost me once you implied is BLM the extreme left and totalitarianism. It is a strange view point to say the least to think the ones who are oppressed and trying to free themselves are actually the oppressors.

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#40 AND1SALTTAPE
Member since 2015 • 861 Posts

@Aljosa23 said:
@and1salttape said:

Extreme left impedes freedom of speech in pretty much the same ways as the far right does. And then you have the example of BLM for an instance. Extreme left is totalitarianism in favor of minorities. Extreme right is totaltitarianism in favor of authorities. Etc.

lol you lost me once you implied is BLM the extreme left and totalitarianism. It is a strange view point to say the least to think the ones who are oppressed and trying to free themselves are actually the oppressors.

Okay....

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#41  Edited By SUD123456
Member since 2007 • 6939 Posts

@Aljosa23 said:
@and1salttape said:
@doubutsuteki said:
@and1salttape said:

Political spectrum is more like a sphere than a line or a circle. You go too far on one side, and you end up on the other. There's no qualitative difference between the far left or the far right. They're both the intersection of each other.

How come?

Extreme left impedes freedom of speech in pretty much the same ways as the far right does. And then you have the example of BLM for an instance. Extreme left is totalitarianism in favor of minorities. Extreme right is totaltitarianism in favor of authorities. Etc.

lol you lost me once you implied is BLM the extreme left and totalitarianism. It is a strange view point to say the least to think the ones who are oppressed and trying to free themselves are actually the oppressors.

I don't think his example is great in BLM, but he is correct that from an outcomes point of view the extremes are largely indistinguishable. Think of it as a piece of string in the shape of a circle only the two ends are not touching. Most people think of measuring the length of the string and view it as the extremes are far apart. The reality is the difference is only the small gap. Think Khmer Rouge on the left and Nazis on the right. Now think of the outcomes of both: killing fields vs concentration camps. Why did they get there? Think in terms of freedom of thought, speech, movement, of individuality vs collective conformance, of centralized planning by the few, etc. They end up in the same place.

Having said that, I always laugh at Americans when they talk about extreme left and right since neither exists there and what they label as extreme is at worst (or best) moderately left or moderately right.

Finally, while the BLM example is not correct, it is quite common for the oppressed to become the oppressors.

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deactivated-5b1e62582e305

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#42 deactivated-5b1e62582e305
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@SUD123456 said:

I don't think his example is great in BLM, but he is correct that from an outcomes point of view the extremes are largely indistinguishable. Think of it as a piece of string in the shape of a circle only the two ends are not touching. Most people think of measuring the length of the string and view it as the extremes are far apart. The reality is the difference is only the small gap. Think Khmer Rouge on the left and Nazis on the right. Now think of the outcomes of both: killing fields vs concentration camps. Why did they get there? Think in terms of freedom of thought, speech, movement, of individuality vs collective conformance, of centralized planning by the few, etc. They end up in the same place.

Having said that, I always laugh at Americans when they talk about extreme left and right since neither exists there and what they label as extreme is at worst (or best) moderately left or moderately right.

Finally, while the BLM example is not correct, it is quite common for the oppressed to become the oppressors.

Oh yeah the reason why I didn't agree with the BLM example is because it's a group that came together because of racial injustice, specifically police killings of young black men. A racial minority in the US. Of course when the minority being talked about is a political party that's a whole different story and I'd agree with you.

Extreme left and right is a relative concept, though. Do you not think the current incarnation of the Republican party would easily be considered "far right" in Europe a kin to FN, UKIP, Golden Dawn, etc?

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mark1974

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#43 mark1974
Member since 2015 • 4261 Posts

To those that think we don't have the extreme right in American politics, how would one be more to the right than Ted Cruz? What room is there to the right of him?

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#44 Kruiz_Bathory
Member since 2009 • 4765 Posts

Both

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#45  Edited By bforrester420
Member since 2014 • 3480 Posts

My impression is that the extreme left's platform attempts to improve conditions for everyone, regardless of race, nationality, sexual orientation, etc. The extreme right's platform attempts to improve conditions for themselves and people like them; gun owners, military, conservative Christians...your run of the mill white people. Basically the right wants the status quo or a roll back to the climate of 60 years ago when white folks had all of the power rather than just most of it.

This is in context to U.S. politics. I see the Right being more inclined to Totalitarianism than the U.S. Left.

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#46  Edited By doubutsuteki
Member since 2004 • 3425 Posts
@SUD123456 said:
@Aljosa23 said:
@and1salttape said:
@doubutsuteki said:

How come?

Extreme left impedes freedom of speech in pretty much the same ways as the far right does. And then you have the example of BLM for an instance. Extreme left is totalitarianism in favor of minorities. Extreme right is totaltitarianism in favor of authorities. Etc.

lol you lost me once you implied is BLM the extreme left and totalitarianism. It is a strange view point to say the least to think the ones who are oppressed and trying to free themselves are actually the oppressors.

I don't think his example is great in BLM, but he is correct that from an outcomes point of view the extremes are largely indistinguishable. Think of it as a piece of string in the shape of a circle only the two ends are not touching. Most people think of measuring the length of the string and view it as the extremes are far apart. The reality is the difference is only the small gap. Think Khmer Rouge on the left and Nazis on the right. Now think of the outcomes of both: killing fields vs concentration camps. Why did they get there? Think in terms of freedom of thought, speech, movement, of individuality vs collective conformance, of centralized planning by the few, etc. They end up in the same place.

Having said that, I always laugh at Americans when they talk about extreme left and right since neither exists there and what they label as extreme is at worst (or best) moderately left or moderately right.

Finally, while the BLM example is not correct, it is quite common for the oppressed to become the oppressors.

Cambodia was a mess. Left wing politics became mixed up with the struggle for national liberation from imperialism, and the Khmer Rouge, when they got into power, sought to take society backwards to a mythological agrarian past, looking towards the former Khmer Empire - that's nationalist, reactionary politics. I don't think that what they were calling themselves is more important than what they actually did. Just like how the NSDAP in Germany calling themselves "socialists" and using some anti-capitalist rhetoric with a racial slant, - "jewish capitalism" - didn't prevent them from defending corporate interests and jailing trade unionists.

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DaVillain

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#47 DaVillain  Moderator
Member since 2014 • 55899 Posts

@Gaming-Planet said:

They're both a threat.

We should kill'em all. Get it over with.

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#48 deactivated-5ebea105efb64
Member since 2013 • 7262 Posts

Don't care. Never gonna vote.

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LJS9502_basic

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#49 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 178810 Posts

Extreme's in general are a problem. Moderation is the key.

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#50 bmanva
Member since 2002 • 4680 Posts

On the surface, extreme right is worse. But Extreme left is more insidious and have graver long term consequences.