What is wrong with being a Zionist?

[QUOTE="BranKetra"][QUOTE="Darkman2007"] thats total and utter nonsense, neither Judaism or Zionism says the Jews are any better than anyone else, it simply claims that God has chosen the Jews to carry his message. no different than other religions tbh, who claim that their message is the correct one, though for some reason , some non Jews seem to be offended more by Jews telling them this , as opposed to others.Darkman2007

I am not trying to slanderize any religion. Personally, I am a Christian. I am simply trying to explain why certain people consider Israel antagonistic in some ways as well as learn some things.

[QUOTE="jimkabrhel"]

Israel is a blessing to the region? A country that cannot make peace is not a blessing. They haven't stabilized the region that I can see.

This isn't mean to be critical of Israel, just critical of Shadow's description, which I think is ridiculous.

The US isn't a blessing to anyone, and I love this country.

ShadowMoses900

Israel is the ONLY real democracy in the ME, it is the ONLY country that values human rights. Women can go where they want and dress how they want, you can be of any religion you choose (or lack thereof), they even let gays serve openly in their military.

Go to an Arab country and try that. Watch what happens. Israel's values should move to other countries.

"Israel was not created in order to disappear - Israel will endure and flourish. It is the child of hope and the home of the brave. It can neither be broken by adversity nor demoralized by success. It carries the shield of democracy and it honors the sword of freedom."-John F. Kennedy

As long as you are not a palestinian in occupied territories....

[QUOTE="BranKetra"][QUOTE="Darkman2007"] thats total and utter nonsense, neither Judaism or Zionism says the Jews are any better than anyone else, it simply claims that God has chosen the Jews to carry his message. no different than other religions tbh, who claim that their message is the correct one, though for some reason , some non Jews seem to be offended more by Jews telling them this , as opposed to others.Darkman2007

Well not all Christians think that, Christians are very broad and they have different views. But yes several of the more fundamentalist Christians believe that non Christians go to hell for not believing in Jesus, which is just offensive to me.

Especially because many of these Christians are not familar with the orgional texts, which is why Jesus as the Messiah does not make sense to us. God does not demand human sacrifices, there is no fire pit of hell, there is only one God no trinity, there is no orgional sin, God in the flesh is a pagan concept to us as God can have no image.

I simply tell Christians who say that to me "are you calling God a liar"? God made an eternal ever lasting covenant with the Israelites, to say they are going to hell is just rediculous. God does not lie.

Also it's even more rediculous considering the first Christians were Jews, that sect is still around today but with a different term (nazerenes I think or something). So they hate the Jews? Lol. Makes no sense.

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="BranKetra"] Although it is known that they were not chosen to carry out God's will on earth because they were better than any others, the fact that they were picked instead of anyone else implies favoritism in the form that we have both said. I can see how you and another user misunderstood. Perhaps I should have explained more in my original post. What religions do you speak of that the core ideals are so greatly linked to its people that it could be compared to Judaism?ShadowMoses900

Well not all Christians think that, Christians are very broad and they have different views. But yes several of the more fundamentalist Christians believe that non Christians go to hell for not believing in Jesus, which is just offensive to me.

Especially because many of these Christians are not familar with the orgional texts, which is why Jesus as the Messiah does not make sense to us. God does not demand human sacrifices, there is no fire pit of hell, there is only one God no trinity, there is no orgional sin, God in the flesh is a pagan concept to us as God can have no image.

I simply tell Christians who say that to me "are you calling God a liar"? God made an eternal ever lasting covenant with the Israelites, to say they are going to hell is just rediculous. God does not lie.

Also it's even more rediculous considering the first Christians were Jews, that sect is still around today but with a different term (nazerenes I think or something). So they hate the Jews? Lol. Makes no sense.

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="BranKetra"] Although it is known that they were not chosen to carry out God's will on earth because they were better than any others, the fact that they were picked instead of anyone else implies favoritism in the form that we have both said. I can see how you and another user misunderstood. Perhaps I should have explained more in my original post. What religions do you speak of that the core ideals are so greatly linked to its people that it could be compared to Judaism?BranKetra

Well as Dark Man said, it's a both an ethnicity and a religion. It's an ethnoreligion, meaning that people of a particular ethnicity practice that religion and is based on their culture, even though anyone can convert to it. The term "Jew" comes from "Judean" which was one who lived in the kingdom of Juda.

So think of it like a nationilty, you can be born a Judean "Jew" by your blood and ancestry. Or you can be adopted into the nation by conversion. Judaism is merely the religion of the nation of Judea.

But even among Jews there is much division over it. Some like the Orthodox only accept a Jew if the mother is a Jew by blood, or does an Orthodox conversion. Reform and Reconstruction Judaism is through either parent is a Jew by blood, or converts into their sect (which is easier than Orthodox conversion). There is also a sect of Jews called Karait Jews who only accept it through the father or their conversion.

In anceint Israel it was passed through the father, it was changed to the mother in Roman times as the child of a Roman mother was a Roman citizen. And the Jewish women were getting raped.

But think of it like this, you have Hebrew (the ethnicity) and you have Judaism (the religion). Jew is a term used interchangeably so it works. The Jews were exiled by the Romans so lived in other areas in the world like Europe (Ashkenazi) or around the Medditeriaian and Spain (Sephardic) but they still share the same genetics and religion. Jews also are more prevelant to certain diseases than other groups.

[QUOTE="BranKetra"]

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"] very simple, take Christianity for example, in the Christian world, if you do not accept Jesus as Christianity did, you went to hell , as such , you were inferior, Christians also believed, and still do , that their covenant is the absolute one. in essence its no different, although in Judaism , non Jews are not punished for not being Jews, so its more tolerant.ShadowMoses900

Well as Dark Man said, it's a both an ethnicity and a religion. It's an ethnoreligion, meaning that people of a particular ethnicity practice that religion and is based on their culture, even though anyone can convert to it. The term "Jew" comes from "Judean" which was one who lived in the kingdom of Juda.

So think of it like a nationilty, you can be born a Judean "Jew" by your blood and ancestry. Or you can be adopted into the nation by conversion. Judaism is merely the religion of the nation of Judea.

But even among Jews there is much division over it. Some like the Orthodox only accept a Jew if the mother is a Jew by blood, or does an Orthodox conversion. Reform and Reconstruction Judaism is through either parent is a Jew by blood, or converts into their sect (which is easier than Orthodox conversion). There is also a sect of Jews called Karait Jews who only accept it through the father or their conversion.

In anceint Israel it was passed through the father, it was changed to the mother in Roman times as the child of a Roman mother was a Roman citizen. And the Jewish women were getting raped.

But think of it like this, you have Hebrew (the ethnicity) and you have Judaism (the religion). Jew is a term used interchangeably so it works. The Jews were exiled by the Romans so lived in other areas in the world like Europe (Ashkenazi) or around the Medditeriaian and Spain (Sephardic) but they still share the same genetics and religion. Jews also are more prevelant to certain diseases than other groups.

[QUOTE="ShadowMoses900"]

[QUOTE="BranKetra"] That is interesting. I was actually asking what religions are linked to the ethnicity which founded them on comparable terms to Judaism. For example, Yeshua was a Jew, but to my knowledge, Christanity does not have a group of people who are born into the religion. I just edited my post. Sorry for the confusion.

GrayF0X786

Well as Dark Man said, it's a both an ethnicity and a religion. It's an ethnoreligion, meaning that people of a particular ethnicity practice that religion and is based on their culture, even though anyone can convert to it. The term "Jew" comes from "Judean" which was one who lived in the kingdom of Juda.

So think of it like a nationilty, you can be born a Judean "Jew" by your blood and ancestry. Or you can be adopted into the nation by conversion. Judaism is merely the religion of the nation of Judea.

But even among Jews there is much division over it. Some like the Orthodox only accept a Jew if the mother is a Jew by blood, or does an Orthodox conversion. Reform and Reconstruction Judaism is through either parent is a Jew by blood, or converts into their sect (which is easier than Orthodox conversion). There is also a sect of Jews called Karait Jews who only accept it through the father or their conversion.

In anceint Israel it was passed through the father, it was changed to the mother in Roman times as the child of a Roman mother was a Roman citizen. And the Jewish women were getting raped.

But think of it like this, you have Hebrew (the ethnicity) and you have Judaism (the religion). Jew is a term used interchangeably so it works. The Jews were exiled by the Romans so lived in other areas in the world like Europe (Ashkenazi) or around the Medditeriaian and Spain (Sephardic) but they still share the same genetics and religion. Jews also are more prevelant to certain diseases than other groups.

[QUOTE="ShadowMoses900"]

[QUOTE="BranKetra"] That is interesting. I was actually asking what religions are linked to the ethnicity which founded them on comparable terms to Judaism. For example, Yeshua was a Jew, but to my knowledge, Christanity does not have a group of people who are born into the religion. I just edited my post. Sorry for the confusion.

GrayF0X786

Well as Dark Man said, it's a both an ethnicity and a religion. It's an ethnoreligion, meaning that people of a particular ethnicity practice that religion and is based on their culture, even though anyone can convert to it. The term "Jew" comes from "Judean" which was one who lived in the kingdom of Juda.

So think of it like a nationilty, you can be born a Judean "Jew" by your blood and ancestry. Or you can be adopted into the nation by conversion. Judaism is merely the religion of the nation of Judea.

But even among Jews there is much division over it. Some like the Orthodox only accept a Jew if the mother is a Jew by blood, or does an Orthodox conversion. Reform and Reconstruction Judaism is through either parent is a Jew by blood, or converts into their sect (which is easier than Orthodox conversion). There is also a sect of Jews called Karait Jews who only accept it through the father or their conversion.

In anceint Israel it was passed through the father, it was changed to the mother in Roman times as the child of a Roman mother was a Roman citizen. And the Jewish women were getting raped.

But think of it like this, you have Hebrew (the ethnicity) and you have Judaism (the religion). Jew is a term used interchangeably so it works. The Jews were exiled by the Romans so lived in other areas in the world like Europe (Ashkenazi) or around the Medditeriaian and Spain (Sephardic) but they still share the same genetics and religion. Jews also are more prevelant to certain diseases than other groups.

Yes. A person from anywhere in the world can convert to Judaism and become a Jew, they are seen as fellow Jews and not Gentiles.

It's like a tribe, Judaism is the tribes "religion, and the tribe is made up Hebrews or "ethnic Jews" and their culture. However one can become "adopted" into the tribe by learning it's culture and converting to it's religion.

Similar to many Native American tribes, there were white members these tribes (still are today) who become Cherokee or Creek Indian by being adopted into their tribes by learning of their cultures and religions ect...and they are seen as Cherokee or Creek and not an outsider.

black people in Israel walking around with the jewish people, are you guys 100% sure lol?

black people in Israel walking around with the jewish people, are you guys 100% sure lol?

GrayF0X786

Zionism implies political extremism while supporting the state of Israel.Zeviander

black people in Israel walking around with the jewish people, are you guys 100% sure lol?

GrayF0X786

There are black Jews, they converted. There are Chinese Jews, Spanish Jews, people from all over the world that converted and became Jews.

Anyone from any background can convert to Judaism and be a Jew. I don't see why you can't believe this. People don't have to be Jews by blood, they can be Jews by religion.

I think alot of fundamentalist muslims think that there way is the only way, and if they don't get it they act like a child bitc ing and bitc ing until they get their way and others start to believe what they say. Or they just blow up a building.

Israel (not its people) should sink into the mediterranean sea. The concept of a "holy land" is stupid. Claiming land because a mythical sky-wizard said it belongs to you is stupid. A religiously founded state is stupid. Warring over religious claims of land is stupid.

The entire thing is stupid. The world would be far better off without ANY religiously claimed lands. Sorry guys, dirt isnt holy no matter who says it is nor how much blood was spilt there.

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

[QUOTE="ShadowMoses900"]

People who hate Israel, don't believe Jews have a right to a homeland, people who hate the Jewish culture, ethnicity, and religion. Anti-Semites.

ShadowMoses900

And what of those who have no problem with Jews, nor with Jews having a homeland in Israel, yet find many of the actions of the modern state of Israel objectionable?

You find protecting your citizens and standing up for them objectionable?

Israel never throws the first punch, they don't fire bomb civilian areas. The Arab countries however do, and they do acts of terrorism.

Israel goes well beyond simply protecting its citizens. Their policies in regards to Palestinians veers into apartheid territory.

Oh I dunno; illegal occupations, demolishing homes, vetoing 2-state solutions, atrocities revealed by the UN...for some reason, folks don't like that kind of thing; I dunno why...thebest31406

Are you serious? :lol:

[QUOTE="ShadowMoses900"]

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

And what of those who have no problem with Jews, nor with Jews having a homeland in Israel, yet find many of the actions of the modern state of Israel objectionable?

worlock77

You find protecting your citizens and standing up for them objectionable?

Israel never throws the first punch, they don't fire bomb civilian areas. The Arab countries however do, and they do acts of terrorism.

Israel goes well beyond simply protecting its citizens. Their policies in regards to Palestinians veers into apartheid territory.

Oh I dunno; illegal occupations, demolishing homes, vetoing 2-state solutions, atrocities revealed by the UN...for some reason, folks don't like that kind of thing; I dunno why...thebest31406

Zionism is just another name for nationalism.

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

[QUOTE="ShadowMoses900"]

You find protecting your citizens and standing up for them objectionable?

Israel never throws the first punch, they don't fire bomb civilian areas. The Arab countries however do, and they do acts of terrorism.

Darkman2007

Israel goes well beyond simply protecting its citizens. Their policies in regards to Palestinians veers into apartheid territory.

No it isn't. And quite frankly that's a stupid comparison. A better comparison would be what the US did to Native Americans.

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="worlock77"]

Israel goes well beyond simply protecting its citizens. Their policies in regards to Palestinians veers into apartheid territory.

worlock77

No it isn't. And quite frankly that's a stupid comparison. A better comparison would be what the US did to Native Americans.

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="worlock77"]

Israel goes well beyond simply protecting its citizens. Their policies in regards to Palestinians veers into apartheid territory.

worlock77

No it isn't. And quite frankly that's a stupid comparison. A better comparison would be what the US did to Native Americans.

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"] if thats aparthied, its a might humane one although frankly, they are not citizens, of course they are going to get treated differently than Arabs who are citizens. this is like complaining why the US doesn't let Afghans vote in the US election because there are US troops in their country.BossPerson

No it isn't. And quite frankly that's a stupid comparison. A better comparison would be what the US did to Native Americans.

And the US didn't exterminate the Natives.

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"] if thats aparthied, its a might humane one although frankly, they are not citizens, of course they are going to get treated differently than Arabs who are citizens. this is like complaining why the US doesn't let Afghans vote in the US election because there are US troops in their country.BossPerson

No it isn't. And quite frankly that's a stupid comparison. A better comparison would be what the US did to Native Americans.

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="BossPerson"]"part of the country" is a rather subjective term. The blacks in S.A lived in bantustans away from white people. BossPerson

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"] if thats aparthied, its a might humane one although frankly, they are not citizens, of course they are going to get treated differently than Arabs who are citizens. this is like complaining why the US doesn't let Afghans vote in the US election because there are US troops in their country.Darkman2007

No it isn't. And quite frankly that's a stupid comparison. A better comparison would be what the US did to Native Americans.

Continually encroaching into their territory. Violating agreed upon treaties. Denying citizenship. Restricting their ability to support themselves. Sounds like a pretty fair comparison to me.

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="worlock77"]

No it isn't. And quite frankly that's a stupid comparison. A better comparison would be what the US did to Native Americans.

worlock77

Continually encroaching into their territory. Violating agreed upon treaties. Denying citizenship. Restricting their ability to support themselves. Sounds like a pretty fair comparison to me.

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="BranKetra"] Although it is known that they were not chosen to carry out God's will on earth because they were better than any others, the fact that they were picked instead of anyone else implies favoritism in the form that we have both said. I can see how you and another user misunderstood. Perhaps I should have explained more in my original post. What religions do you speak of that the core ideals are so greatly linked to its people that it could be compared to Judaism?ShadowMoses900

Well not all Christians think that, Christians are very broad and they have different views. But yes several of the more fundamentalist Christians believe that non Christians go to hell for not believing in Jesus, which is just offensive to me.

Especially because many of these Christians are not familar with the orgional texts, which is why Jesus as the Messiah does not make sense to us. God does not demand human sacrifices, there is no fire pit of hell, there is only one God no trinity, there is no orgional sin, God in the flesh is a pagan concept to us as God can have no image.

I simply tell Christians who say that to me "are you calling God a liar"? God made an eternal ever lasting covenant with the Israelites, to say they are going to hell is just rediculous. God does not lie.

Also it's even more rediculous considering the first Christians were Jews, that sect is still around today but with a different term (nazerenes I think or something). So they hate the Jews? Lol. Makes no sense.

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="BossPerson"]I was referring to the West Bank. IMO, its either an occupation or an apartheid. If its not one, then its the other. People are free to pick which one sounds better. BossPerson

I find it offensive that I would be compared to what the US did to the Native Americans, that implies that I have no connection to the land, which is frankly insultingDarkman2007

- Too bad. If you're going to engage in such discussion you need to accept that you're going to be offended sometimes.

- Honestly, why do you figure you have a connection to the land simply because your ancestors lived there centuries ago? My ancestors had large land holdings in Gloucestershire and Worcestershire in England. Does that give me the right to go over there and claim that land as mine?