U.S. Economy Unexpectedly Contracts in Fourth Quarter

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#101 Posted by Necrifer (10629 posts) -

Intriguing.

#102 Posted by -Sun_Tzu- (17384 posts) -
[QUOTE="comp_atkins"]

[QUOTE="KC_Hokie"]So you think all that random government spending and 'stimulus' actually did something? We've had similar recessions, like in the early 80s, and recovered far faster because government wasn't such a huge percentage of the economy.KC_Hokie

lol no..

Yes...in several ways the recession of the early 80s was worse than the one we just had. Recovery was far greater and there was little government intervention.

Little government intervention = massive contractionary and expansionary monetary policy?
#103 Posted by comp_atkins (31269 posts) -

[QUOTE="comp_atkins"][QUOTE="KC_Hokie"]Doesn't really matter. 100% of it is borrowed, printed or taxed. All three take away from the private sector and finite resources of the economy. KC_Hokie

like talking to a wall.. so what about private sector jobs supported, maybe not even fully, by government funds?

When those jobs are propped up by borrowed and printed money then that's a bad thing. That's why GDP dropped last quarter....defense spending dropped.

It's good that government spending dropped. Terrible it was such a high percentage of the economy in the first place.

which brings us full circle to the original point i made about not all government supported jobs are funded by borrowed/printed money... there aren't solid brick walls in the economy between what is government-funded and privately-funded... it's all interconnected. to simply say "we should just eliminate all jobs funded by borrowed/printed money" is a ridiculous statement to make because it shows a glaring lack of understanding of the complexities of our economy.
#104 Posted by jimkabrhel (15417 posts) -

[QUOTE="KC_Hokie"]

[QUOTE="comp_atkins"] like talking to a wall.. so what about private sector jobs supported, maybe not even fully, by government funds? comp_atkins

When those jobs are propped up by borrowed and printed money then that's a bad thing. That's why GDP dropped last quarter....defense spending dropped.

It's good that government spending dropped. Terrible it was such a high percentage of the economy in the first place.

which brings us full circle to the original point i made about not all government supported jobs are funded by borrowed/printed money... there aren't solid brick walls in the economy between what is government-funded and privately-funded... it's all interconnected. to simply say "we should just eliminate all jobs funded by borrowed/printed money" is a ridiculous statement to make because it shows a glaring lack of understanding of the complexities of our economy.

Subtlety has no place in an OT discussion, especially with those who only attack and ignore contradictory information, however well it's supported.

#105 Posted by KC_Hokie (16099 posts) -

[QUOTE="KC_Hokie"][QUOTE="comp_atkins"] lol no.. -Sun_Tzu-
Yes...in several ways the recession of the early 80s was worse than the one we just had. Recovery was far greater and there was little government intervention.

Little government intervention = massive contractionary and expansionary monetary policy?

That recession was a correction to the prior recession.

We're going to have a significant correction to the one we just had too.

#106 Posted by KC_Hokie (16099 posts) -
[QUOTE="KC_Hokie"]

[QUOTE="comp_atkins"] like talking to a wall.. so what about private sector jobs supported, maybe not even fully, by government funds? comp_atkins

When those jobs are propped up by borrowed and printed money then that's a bad thing. That's why GDP dropped last quarter....defense spending dropped.

It's good that government spending dropped. Terrible it was such a high percentage of the economy in the first place.

which brings us full circle to the original point i made about not all government supported jobs are funded by borrowed/printed money... there aren't solid brick walls in the economy between what is government-funded and privately-funded... it's all interconnected. to simply say "we should just eliminate all jobs funded by borrowed/printed money" is a ridiculous statement to make because it shows a glaring lack of understanding of the complexities of our economy.

Saying there isn't a difference between the private and public sectors is socialism and a huge problem.
#107 Posted by -Sun_Tzu- (17384 posts) -

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="KC_Hokie"] Yes...in several ways the recession of the early 80s was worse than the one we just had. Recovery was far greater and there was little government intervention. KC_Hokie

Little government intervention = massive contractionary and expansionary monetary policy?

That recession was a correction to the prior recession.

We're going to have a significant correction to the one we just had too.

Hokie don't you think it's a little too soon to start making predictions again?
#108 Posted by KC_Hokie (16099 posts) -
[QUOTE="KC_Hokie"]

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] Little government intervention = massive contractionary and expansionary monetary policy? -Sun_Tzu-

That recession was a correction to the prior recession.

We're going to have a significant correction to the one we just had too.

Hokie don't you think it's a little too soon to start making predictions again?

One more quarter like the last one and I'm right. This is a far easier prediction since the last few years of government spending, borrowing and printing are not sustainable.
#109 Posted by Abbeten (2803 posts) -
[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="KC_Hokie"]That recession was a correction to the prior recession.

We're going to have a significant correction to the one we just had too.

KC_Hokie
Hokie don't you think it's a little too soon to start making predictions again?

One more quarter like the last one and I'm right. This is a far easier prediction since the last few years of government spending, borrowing and printing are not sustainable.

oh boy here we go again
#110 Posted by DaBrainz (7628 posts) -
Why are liberals so emotional?
#111 Posted by jimkabrhel (15417 posts) -

Why are liberals so emotional?DaBrainz

You didn't need to leave the other thread to say that. And there's very little emotion in this thread, just a debate, of sorts.

#112 Posted by -RocBoys9489- (6197 posts) -
I lost faith in the US government long ago. Nobody is going to do anything to solve our debt CRISIS; not problem, CRISIS
#113 Posted by -RocBoys9489- (6197 posts) -
[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="KC_Hokie"]That recession was a correction to the prior recession.

We're going to have a significant correction to the one we just had too.

KC_Hokie
Hokie don't you think it's a little too soon to start making predictions again?

One more quarter like the last one and I'm right. This is a far easier prediction since the last few years of government spending, borrowing and printing are not sustainable.

It's ok Hokie, we'll just make it all magically disappear with trillion dollar coins LOL
#114 Posted by DroidPhysX (17089 posts) -
I remember Hokies last prediction. Hey hokie, did Romney get inaugurated yet?
#115 Posted by DaBrainz (7628 posts) -

[QUOTE="DaBrainz"]Why are liberals so emotional?jimkabrhel

You didn't need to leave the other thread to say that. And there's very little emotion in this thread, just a debate, of sorts.

Meh I'm just bored.
#116 Posted by comp_atkins (31269 posts) -
[QUOTE="comp_atkins"][QUOTE="KC_Hokie"]When those jobs are propped up by borrowed and printed money then that's a bad thing. That's why GDP dropped last quarter....defense spending dropped.

It's good that government spending dropped. Terrible it was such a high percentage of the economy in the first place.

KC_Hokie
which brings us full circle to the original point i made about not all government supported jobs are funded by borrowed/printed money... there aren't solid brick walls in the economy between what is government-funded and privately-funded... it's all interconnected. to simply say "we should just eliminate all jobs funded by borrowed/printed money" is a ridiculous statement to make because it shows a glaring lack of understanding of the complexities of our economy.

Saying there isn't a difference between the private and public sectors is socialism and a huge problem.

i never said there wasn't a difference... just that it isn't as black and white as you'd like to think. we live in the real world, after all. simply saying socialism = bad, capitalism = good and that being ( essentially ) your only argument may get you a bumper sticker made, but it will not address any real-world issues... in the real world we have both.
#117 Posted by osirisx3 (1756 posts) -

Thank you liberals

#118 Posted by kingkong0124 (8710 posts) -
It's Bush's fault.DaBrainz
#119 Posted by JC346 (4886 posts) -
[QUOTE="jimkabrhel"]

For reference, since looking at a single data point is never much use.KC_Hokie

Yea....it was the Department of Commerce that provided that data. And it was totally unexpected for the GDP to drop DURING the holiday quarter. Almost never happens.

GDP is seasonally adjusted each quarter so the holiday sales aren't factored into it.
#120 Posted by Abbeten (2803 posts) -
I lost faith in the US government long ago. Nobody is going to do anything to solve our debt CRISIS; not problem, CRISIS-RocBoys9489-
how is it a crisis?
#121 Posted by whipassmt (13995 posts) -

Damn, Obama done messed up the economy again!

#122 Posted by sonicare (53451 posts) -

I think the press is blaming the superstorm Sandy.  That way you can focus your rage on a non human thing.

#123 Posted by Abbeten (2803 posts) -

I think the press is blaming the superstorm Sandy.  That way you can focus your rage on a non human thing.

sonicare
i havent seen anyone blame sandy
#124 Posted by jimkabrhel (15417 posts) -

Damn, Obama done messed up the economy again!

whipassmt

Four years of similar policies and now we have a single quarter that's bad. Yep, he's most likely to blame.

#125 Posted by Abbeten (2803 posts) -

[QUOTE="whipassmt"]

Damn, Obama done messed up the economy again!

jimkabrhel

Four years of similar policies and now we have a single quarter that's bad. Yep, he's most likely to blame.

well it's his fault insofar as he can be blamed for not resisting spending cuts more than he did
#126 Posted by DarkLink77 (31695 posts) -
[QUOTE="-RocBoys9489-"]I lost faith in the US government long ago. Nobody is going to do anything to solve our debt CRISIS; not problem, CRISISAbbeten
how is it a crisis?

Do you have any idea how much 16 trillion dollars is?
#127 Posted by Mafiree (3704 posts) -

I'm at a lost for words on the minimal understanding of economic indicators in this thread. (GDP is a fine broad measure to use for how an economy is going, I have never seen GNP used in anything worth reading)

First, one quarter does not constitute a trend, especially with the volatility that we had in q4 (Sandy and the lead up to the fiscal "cliff" deal).

Also, the private sector did fairly well in 2012. The public sector (which, the TC thinks we should contract even more) was the drag on job growth in 2012.

Further, the EU is going through recession right now. So, the drop in exports the US is seeing is due significantly to that.......

#128 Posted by -Sun_Tzu- (17384 posts) -
[QUOTE="Abbeten"][QUOTE="-RocBoys9489-"]I lost faith in the US government long ago. Nobody is going to do anything to solve our debt CRISIS; not problem, CRISISDarkLink77
how is it a crisis?

Do you have any idea how much 16 trillion dollars is?

Do you have any idea how low interest rates are?
#129 Posted by Abbeten (2803 posts) -
[QUOTE="Abbeten"][QUOTE="-RocBoys9489-"]I lost faith in the US government long ago. Nobody is going to do anything to solve our debt CRISIS; not problem, CRISISDarkLink77
how is it a crisis?

Do you have any idea how much 16 trillion dollars is?

yes. that doesn't answer my question.
#130 Posted by Mafiree (3704 posts) -
[QUOTE="Abbeten"][QUOTE="-RocBoys9489-"]I lost faith in the US government long ago. Nobody is going to do anything to solve our debt CRISIS; not problem, CRISISDarkLink77
how is it a crisis?

Do you have any idea how much 16 trillion dollars is?

We can borrow for basically nothing right now..... It needs to be addressed in the future (mainly long-term liabilities like social security and medicare). However, it is not an imminent threat to our economy.
#131 Posted by KC_Hokie (16099 posts) -
[QUOTE="Mafiree"][QUOTE="DarkLink77"][QUOTE="Abbeten"] how is it a crisis?

Do you have any idea how much 16 trillion dollars is?

We can borrow for basically nothing right now..... It needs to be addressed in the future (mainly long-term liabilities like social security and medicare). However, it is not an imminent threat to our economy.

Exactly what the Greeks said up until a few years ago.
#132 Posted by chessmaster1989 (29103 posts) -
Hey hokie how'd that Romney inauguration turn out?
#133 Posted by Abbeten (2803 posts) -
[QUOTE="KC_Hokie"][QUOTE="Mafiree"][QUOTE="DarkLink77"] Do you have any idea how much 16 trillion dollars is?

We can borrow for basically nothing right now..... It needs to be addressed in the future (mainly long-term liabilities like social security and medicare). However, it is not an imminent threat to our economy.

Exactly what the Greeks said up until a few years ago.

greeks don't issue bonds in their own sovereign currency bro~ also they had a little problem with tax evasion and their huge deficits being kept a secret from the public until they were accidentally revealed
#134 Posted by DroidPhysX (17089 posts) -
Hey hokie how'd that Romney inauguration turn out?chessmaster1989
#135 Posted by LJS9502_basic (150326 posts) -
I really don't think one quarter is much of an indicator.....I could be wrong....but I don't think I am.
#136 Posted by KC_Hokie (16099 posts) -
[QUOTE="Abbeten"][QUOTE="KC_Hokie"][QUOTE="Mafiree"] We can borrow for basically nothing right now..... It needs to be addressed in the future (mainly long-term liabilities like social security and medicare). However, it is not an imminent threat to our economy.

Exactly what the Greeks said up until a few years ago.

greeks don't issue bonds in their own sovereign currency bro~ also they had a little problem with tax evasion and their huge deficits being kept a secret from the public until they were accidentally revealed

Japan issues their own bonds and currency and look at their situation. They keep throwing cash into their economy which causes perpetual recession.
#137 Posted by Mafiree (3704 posts) -
[QUOTE="KC_Hokie"][QUOTE="Mafiree"][QUOTE="DarkLink77"] Do you have any idea how much 16 trillion dollars is?

We can borrow for basically nothing right now..... It needs to be addressed in the future (mainly long-term liabilities like social security and medicare). However, it is not an imminent threat to our economy.

Exactly what the Greeks said up until a few years ago.

Sure.......
#138 Posted by KC_Hokie (16099 posts) -
[QUOTE="Mafiree"][QUOTE="KC_Hokie"][QUOTE="Mafiree"] We can borrow for basically nothing right now..... It needs to be addressed in the future (mainly long-term liabilities like social security and medicare). However, it is not an imminent threat to our economy.

Exactly what the Greeks said up until a few years ago.

Sure.......

It's exactly what they did.....government keep borrowing and spending money and let future generations pay for it.
#139 Posted by -Sun_Tzu- (17384 posts) -
[QUOTE="Abbeten"][QUOTE="KC_Hokie"]Exactly what the Greeks said up until a few years ago. KC_Hokie
greeks don't issue bonds in their own sovereign currency bro~ also they had a little problem with tax evasion and their huge deficits being kept a secret from the public until they were accidentally revealed

Japan issues their own bonds and currency and look at their situation. They keep throwing cash into their economy which causes perpetual recession.

Yeah, look at their situation - no debt crisis.
#140 Posted by KC_Hokie (16099 posts) -
[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="KC_Hokie"][QUOTE="Abbeten"] greeks don't issue bonds in their own sovereign currency bro~ also they had a little problem with tax evasion and their huge deficits being kept a secret from the public until they were accidentally revealed

Japan issues their own bonds and currency and look at their situation. They keep throwing cash into their economy which causes perpetual recession.

Yeah, look at their situation - no debt crisis.

Their debt as a percentage of GDP is higher than ours. And ours is high.
#141 Posted by Mafiree (3704 posts) -
[QUOTE="Abbeten"][QUOTE="KC_Hokie"]Exactly what the Greeks said up until a few years ago. KC_Hokie
greeks don't issue bonds in their own sovereign currency bro~ also they had a little problem with tax evasion and their huge deficits being kept a secret from the public until they were accidentally revealed

Japan issues their own bonds and currency and look at their situation. They keep throwing cash into their economy which causes perpetual recession.

For 2010 GDP growth in Japan was 4.4%........ Far from a recession.
#142 Posted by Abbeten (2803 posts) -
[QUOTE="Abbeten"][QUOTE="KC_Hokie"]Exactly what the Greeks said up until a few years ago. KC_Hokie
greeks don't issue bonds in their own sovereign currency bro~ also they had a little problem with tax evasion and their huge deficits being kept a secret from the public until they were accidentally revealed

Japan issues their own bonds and currency and look at their situation. They keep throwing cash into their economy which causes perpetual recession.

interest rates on japanese bonds are also very low they're not having a debt crisis either
#143 Posted by -Sun_Tzu- (17384 posts) -
[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="KC_Hokie"]Japan issues their own bonds and currency and look at their situation. They keep throwing cash into their economy which causes perpetual recession. KC_Hokie
Yeah, look at their situation - no debt crisis.

Their debt as a percentage of GDP is higher than ours. And ours is high.

And yet they are still not Greece and there is still no Japanese debt crisis.
#144 Posted by Abbeten (2803 posts) -
[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="KC_Hokie"]Japan issues their own bonds and currency and look at their situation. They keep throwing cash into their economy which causes perpetual recession. KC_Hokie
Yeah, look at their situation - no debt crisis.

Their debt as a percentage of GDP is higher than ours. And ours is high.

really? your definition of a debt crisis is simply high debt?
#145 Posted by DroidPhysX (17089 posts) -
I think Hokie might want to retake Econ again.
#146 Posted by KC_Hokie (16099 posts) -
#147 Posted by Mafiree (3704 posts) -
[QUOTE="Mafiree"][QUOTE="KC_Hokie"]Exactly what the Greeks said up until a few years ago. KC_Hokie
Sure.......

It's exactly what they did.....government keep borrowing and spending money and let future generations pay for it.

So, we should have austerity measures........and have the "future generations" pay for it now by being under/unemployed? Just, look how the austerity measures taken in Spain have affected the unemployment rate of those 18-25.......
#148 Posted by chessmaster1989 (29103 posts) -
I think Hokie might want to retake Econ again.DroidPhysX
>implying he ever took econ
#149 Posted by KC_Hokie (16099 posts) -
[QUOTE="Mafiree"][QUOTE="KC_Hokie"][QUOTE="Mafiree"] Sure.......

It's exactly what they did.....government keep borrowing and spending money and let future generations pay for it.

So, we should have austerity measures........and have the "future generations" pay for it now by being under/unemployed? Just, look how the austerity measures taken in Spain have affected the unemployment rate of those 18-25.......

The Spanish and Greeks screwed themselves through decades of borrowing and spending. They have no choice now but austerity.
#150 Posted by Abbeten (2803 posts) -
the spanish got screwed by asymmetric shocks bruh bruh