U.S. Economy Unexpectedly Contracts in Fourth Quarter

[QUOTE="jimkabrhel"]

For reference, since looking at a single data point is never much use.KC_Hokie

Perhaps, but is it a trend or an outlier?

[QUOTE="KC_Hokie"][QUOTE="comp_atkins"] i don't think funding for government programs is broken down by % of funding based on tax revenue vs. funding which was borrowed. and even if it were, then there would have to be a method to determine which programs are funded by tax revenue and which are funded via borrowing. so again, who arbitrates that? comp_atkins

[QUOTE="KC_Hokie"][QUOTE="jimkabrhel"]

For reference, since looking at a single data point is never much use.jimkabrhel

Perhaps, but is it a trend or an outlier?

[QUOTE="comp_atkins"][QUOTE="KC_Hokie"]Doesn't really matter where the money came from since we never had it. It's borrowed or printed out of thin air. KC_Hokie

[QUOTE="jimkabrhel"]

[QUOTE="KC_Hokie"]Yea....it was the Department of Commerce that provided that data. And it was totally unexpected for the GDP to drop DURING the holiday quarter. Almost never happens.

KC_Hokie

Perhaps, but is it a trend or an outlier?

The first part is true. There is not enough evidence to make the second statement. What would you say if we returned to 3% growth in the next quarter? Then the bad quarter is framed by two decent ones and you have no trend.

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="KC_Hokie"] When government spending is such a high percentage of the economy and that money is borrowed or printed out of thin air...that's totally artificial regardless of whether GDP goes up or down. It's the ultimate flaw of the Keynesian economic theory....what happens when you have to level off that government spending? If your private sector isn't strong or a high enough percentage of the economy your GDP drops.KC_Hokie

That's the ultimate flaw of the Keynesian model. Only works ok when you're not in debt and other currencies are weak. The second one of those goes out of wack you are screwed and the model fails.

EDIT: Also FYI, interest rates on treasury securities remain at historic lows

[QUOTE="KC_Hokie"][QUOTE="comp_atkins"] what are you talking about? comp_atkins

[QUOTE="KC_Hokie"]

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] Don't implement austerity when the economy is weak and you won't have any problems. We don't need to level off government spending right now. -Sun_Tzu-

That's the ultimate flaw of the Keynesian model. Only works ok when you're not in debt and other currencies are weak. The second one of those goes out of wack you are screwed and the model fails.

Government is the public sector, business is private sector. It was the public sector part of the economy that caused GDP to drop not private. KC_Hokie

[QUOTE="KC_Hokie"]

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]

Perhaps, but is it a trend or an outlier?

-Sun_Tzu-

The first part is true. There is not enough evidence to make the second statement. What would you say if we returned to 3% growth in the next quarter? Then the bad quarter is framed by two decent ones and you have no trend.

If government spending keeps slowing while the GDP goes up by 3%...I would say that's fantastic and on the right track.

[QUOTE="KC_Hokie"]Government is the public sector, business is private sector. It was the public sector part of the economy that caused GDP to drop not private. -Sun_Tzu-

[QUOTE="KC_Hokie"][QUOTE="comp_atkins"] in the context of our discussion you're implying that every dollar the government spends is borrowed or just printed and put in the treasury? what about the $2T or so in tax revenue? comp_atkins

Taxing, printing, and borrowing take money out of the private economy since there is only finite resources and wealth.

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="KC_Hokie"]Government is the public sector, business is private sector. It was the public sector part of the economy that caused GDP to drop not private. KC_Hokie

That's just terrible. One quarter away from another recession.

KC_Hokie

[QUOTE="KC_Hokie"][QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] Why is that not a good thing then? -Sun_Tzu-

That's just terrible. One quarter away from another recession.

KC_Hokie

[QUOTE="KC_Hokie"]Government is the public sector, business is private sector. It was the public sector part of the economy that caused GDP to drop not private. -Sun_Tzu-

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="KC_Hokie"]Government is the public sector, business is private sector. It was the public sector part of the economy that caused GDP to drop not private. Serraph105

WSJ is owned by fox news. This is an unbiased article that explains why this is actually good news or at worst more evidence the federal reserve is correct in the action they are taking.

Why This Is 'Best-Looking' GDP Drop You'll Ever See

http://www.cnbc.com/id/100419793

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]

[QUOTE="KC_Hokie"]The private sector doing ok while government cutting is a good thing. Just sad government spending is/was such a high percent of GDP. KC_Hokie

That's just terrible. One quarter away from another recession.

KC_Hokie

GDP is a flawed measurement since GNP is more accurate. Governments love to use GDP because it includes various levels of government spending which makes growth appear better than it was.KC_Hokie

Quick side note: GNP includes government spending the same way that GDP does

So not only do you not know what the stock market is, but you don't really know what GDP/GNP is.

[QUOTE="comp_atkins"][QUOTE="KC_Hokie"]Tax revenue doesn't begin to fund government spending anymore. KC_Hokie

Taxing, printing, and borrowing take money out of the private economy since there is only finite resources and wealth.

[QUOTE="KC_Hokie"][QUOTE="Serraph105"]ive seen him call it both good and terrible in the same thread (first page actually), and that was when I decided this topic was going nowhere. Serraph105

[QUOTE="KC_Hokie"]

[QUOTE="comp_atkins"] so now 100% of tax revenue funds 0% of the government? wow i've been wasting my time paying taxes..comp_atkins

Taxing, printing, and borrowing take money out of the private economy since there is only finite resources and wealth.

[QUOTE="KC_Hokie"][QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] You didn't call this a good thing in the beginning of this thread

[quote="KC_Hokie"]

That's just terrible. One quarter away from another recession.

-Sun_Tzu-

GDP is a flawed measurement since GNP is more accurate. Governments love to use GDP because it includes various levels of government spending which makes growth appear better than it was.KC_Hokie

Quick side note: GNP includes government spending the same way that GDP does

So not only do you not know what the stock market is, but you don't really know what GDP/GNP is.

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]

[QUOTE="KC_Hokie"]GDP dropping is bad. The fact we were spending so much as a percentage of GDP on government is terrible. The part of the economy that did ok last quarter was the private sector. KC_Hokie

GDP is a flawed measurement since GNP is more accurate. Governments love to use GDP because it includes various levels of government spending which makes growth appear better than it was.KC_Hokie

Quick side note: GNP includes government spending the same way that GDP does

So not only do you not know what the stock market is, but you don't really know what GDP/GNP is.

You really don't know what you're talking about. GNP includes everything GDP does, the difference between the two is that GDP is based on geography whereas GNP is based on nationality.

[QUOTE="KC_Hokie"][QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] Why do you care if GDP drops or rises? From past statements you don't seem to be a fan of GDP

[quote="KC_Hokie"]GDP is a flawed measurement since GNP is more accurate. Governments love to use GDP because it includes various levels of government spending which makes growth appear better than it was.-Sun_Tzu-

Quick side note: GNP includes government spending the same way that GDP does

So not only do you not know what the stock market is, but you don't really know what GDP/GNP is.

You really don't know what you're talking about. GNP includes everything GDP does, the difference between the two is that GDP is based on geography whereas GNP is based on nationality.

GNP is the INCOME of a particular nation.

GNP is a far more accurate measure of any economy.

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]

[QUOTE="KC_Hokie"] GNP doesn't include things like subsidies (a type of government spending).KC_Hokie

You really don't know what you're talking about. GNP includes everything GDP does, the difference between the two is that GDP is based on geography whereas GNP is based on nationality.

GNP is the INCOME of a particular nation.

GNP is a far more accurate measure of any economy.

Or maybe you did and you just failed miserably.

[QUOTE="KC_Hokie"][QUOTE="Serraph105"]ive seen him call it both good and terrible in the same thread (first page actually), and that was when I decided this topic was going nowhere. Abbeten

[QUOTE="KC_Hokie"]

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]

You really don't know what you're talking about. GNP includes everything GDP does, the difference between the two is that GDP is based on geography whereas GNP is based on nationality.

-Sun_Tzu-

GNP is the INCOME of a particular nation.

GNP is a far more accurate measure of any economy.

Or maybe you did and you just failed miserably.

Therefore, GNP is far more accurate way to measure an economy.

http://www.diffen.com/difference/GDP_vs_GNP

That's for you, Hokie

[QUOTE="comp_atkins"][QUOTE="KC_Hokie"] Tax revenue only funds a fraction of spending now. The other part is covered by printing and borrowing.

Taxing, printing, and borrowing take money out of the private economy since there is only finite resources and wealth.

KC_Hokie

http://www.diffen.com/difference/GDP_vs_GNP

That's for you, Hokie

jimkabrhel

This wouldn't have happened if Obama was President. Damn that Romney!

[QUOTE="KC_Hokie"][QUOTE="comp_atkins"] what fraction? spoiler: it's not as insignificant as you like to think... anyway.. this conversation has already branched off into the weeds.. i had asked you who the arbiters for what artificial jobs were.. you responded that they area all artificial because they're all funded entirely by borrowed/printed money, which is not the case.... so again, who decides which gov't funded jobs are artificial? comp_atkins

It's good that government spending dropped. Terrible it was such a high percentage of the economy in the first place.

This wouldn't have happened if Obama was President. Damn that Romney!

Aljosa23

Are you well?

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]

[QUOTE="KC_Hokie"]Ahh...no. GDP is the total worth of a country and includes things like subsidies and foreigners.

GNP is the INCOME of a particular nation.

GNP is a far more accurate measure of any economy.

KC_Hokie

Or maybe you did and you just failed miserably.

Therefore, GNP is far more accurate way to measure an economy.

"the difference between the two is that GDP is based on geography whereas GNP is based on nationality."

I've already made that distinction for you. Now that doesn't really mean that one is more "accurate" than the other - they measure different things in the same manner - in general the flaws of GDP equally apply to GNP. But at least you aren't still making the idiotic claim that GNP somehow doesn't measure government spending.

[QUOTE="comp_atkins"][QUOTE="KC_Hokie"]Tax revenue doesn't begin to fund government spending anymore. KC_Hokie

Taxing, printing, and borrowing take money out of the private economy since there is only finite resources and wealth.

That's what they want you to think. If the government printed or borrowed enough to send everyone $1 million there is no logical reason we couldn't all be milliionaires and just imagine the GDP growth if that happened.

[QUOTE="Aljosa23"]

This wouldn't have happened if Obama was President. Damn that Romney!

Necrifer

Are you well?

[QUOTE="Abbeten"][QUOTE="KC_Hokie"]It is both because GDP was so artificially propped up by government spending.KC_Hokie

[QUOTE="KC_Hokie"]

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] Thank you for confirming that you've never taken a single macro econ class in your entire life.

Or maybe you did and you just failed miserably.

-Sun_Tzu-

Therefore, GNP is far more accurate way to measure an economy.

"the difference between the two is that GDP is based on geography whereas GNP is based on nationality."

I've already made that distinction for you. Now that doesn't really mean that one is more "accurate" than the other - they measure different things in the same manner - in general the flaws of GDP equally apply to GNP. But at least you aren't still making the idiotic claim that GNP somehow doesn't measure government spending.

[QUOTE="Necrifer"]

[QUOTE="Aljosa23"]

This wouldn't have happened if Obama was President. Damn that Romney!

Aljosa23

Are you well?

You choose to remember all of this?

[QUOTE="Aljosa23"]

[QUOTE="Necrifer"]

Are you well?

Necrifer

You choose to remember all of this?

[QUOTE="KC_Hokie"][QUOTE="Abbeten"] yeah that's kind of what happens in a recession if it doesn't, then we have another Great Depression i don't really consider that a bad thingcomp_atkins

[QUOTE="KC_Hokie"][QUOTE="Abbeten"] yeah that's kind of what happens in a recession if it doesn't, then we have another Great Depression i don't really consider that a bad thingcomp_atkins