Spiritualism and Religion

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#1 Edited by Ariabed (1099 posts) -

What's the differance, is it possible to be spiritual without being religious? I guess it's impossible to be religious and not be spiritual, is it?

Someone who is spiritual does that mean they would believe in human spirit/soul, would they believe that soul/spirit could live on after death or not?

How does it work being a spiritual Atheist?

#2 Edited by 4myAmuzumament (1743 posts) -

the only difference is the extra hydrogen atom attached to the spiritualism molecule

#3 Posted by Master_Live (13630 posts) -

You either do or do not, there is no try.

#4 Posted by -Sun_Tzu- (17316 posts) -

I consider myself very spiritual and I'm as atheist as they come.

#5 Posted by SaintLeonidas (25719 posts) -

I consider myself very spiritual and I'm as atheist as they come.

#6 Edited by Ariabed (1099 posts) -
#7 Edited by Ariabed (1099 posts) -

@4myAmuzumament: lol!!! you just had to bring science into it didn't you. :)

#8 Posted by MrGeezer (55942 posts) -

Example: A spiritual atheist may be some godless hippie who thinks of "mother earth" as a thinking breathing entity that feels sad whenever we pollute. Also, they watch plastic grocery bags fly around in the wind and talk about how shit blowing in the wind represents nature's great majesty or some crap like that.

Meanwhile, a non-spiritual religious person just follows rules and shit without caring why they do it. A good example is a Christian who has never read the bible, who spends their entire life being an asshole, goes out doing drugs and screwing every stranger they meet, and then thinks it's all okay because they show up at church on Sunday and occasionally make a comment about how awesome god is. Also, all those assholes who go to prison and then find god and then act as if they're all so righteous. Fuck off with that shit, people. Don't get me wrong...I advocate for better behavior, and if finding god and being a dick about it gets you to stop stabbing people or dealing drugs, then fair enough. Still, don't get all high and mighty with me. I might not have found Jesus, but I'm also not the one who went to fucking prison for stabbing dudes and dealing drugs. It's like those dudes in prison for beating their wives, then they reform themselves and talk about how they found god. That's all great and shit, but stop telling ME about it. Go tell that to the woman whose teeth you knocked out after you got drunk. That's what those assholes are really out for, redemption. They're trying to convince the world that they aren't worthless, when they should be selling that shit to god and the people who they've wronged. Leave me the hell out of it. I'm not saying that they are full of shit...but if they are full of shit, then they need to be making amends with the people who care about them (that would be god and the people who they have wronged). I don't want to hear some asshole redemption story from some reformed sinner who was imprisoned for killing and hurting people. That's not to say that I'm guilt free, but I deal with my personal demons in a personal mannner, with the people I personally wronged. I don't try to shove that in the faces of people who have nothing to do with the situation.

#9 Posted by BlackGenjii (220 posts) -

If you ask me, there is a HUGE difference between spirituality and religion.

Someone who truly lives for God and is not judgmental is spiritual.

The average person who calls themselves a Christian is simply religious, and the truth be told someone who truly knows God knows that Christianity is not for God.

Although, I do believe that there are people who truly live for God, who think of themselves as a Christian because that's all they've ever known.

Overall, someone who truly lives for God is a follower of Christ, man of God (or) woman of God and is spiritual... NOT religious.

Back to the question, yes, there is a difference between spiritualty and religion... at least, in my mind there is.

#10 Posted by The-Apostle (12108 posts) -

If you ask me, there is a HUGE difference between spirituality and religion.

Someone who truly lives for God and is not judgmental is spiritual.

The average person who calls themselves a Christian is simply religious, and the truth be told someone who truly knows God knows that Christianity is not for God.

Although, I do believe that there are people who truly live for God, who think of themselves as a Christian because that's all they've ever known.

Overall, someone who truly lives for God is a follower of Christ, man of God (or) woman of God and is spiritual... NOT religious.

Back to the question, yes, there is a difference between spiritualty and religion... at least, in my mind there is.

This pretty much sums it up. Christians who are followers in Spirit have a personal relationship with Christ.

#12 Posted by Ariabed (1099 posts) -

@The-Apostle: @BlackGenjii: what is a spiritual atheist? Is it a earth loving hippie like MrGeezer said or is there more to it also I have edited my opening statement as some more questions have arose, if you would like to have a read and give your thoughts. Thank you

#13 Posted by Korvus (2423 posts) -

@MrGeezer: That was really stuck in there, wasn't it? Feel better now? =P

#14 Posted by thehig1 (857 posts) -

its hard to answer because the term spirituality is so vague. Atheism is the rejection of belief of any deities and so often spirituality is linked to God.

#15 Posted by Ariabed (1099 posts) -

@-Sun_Tzu-: how does being spritualist and a atheist work?

#16 Edited by -Sun_Tzu- (17316 posts) -

@ariabed said:

@-Sun_Tzu-: how does being spritualist and a atheist work?

Honestly I have a hard time understanding how someone can be religious and spiritual. Spirituality is something that is ill-defined, but I'd define it as embracing and reflecting on the profoundness/tension of existence through meditation and mindfulness and you certainly don't need god for that. In fact I am of the opinion that the universe becomes much more beautiful once you let go of god and superstition.

#17 Posted by Ariabed (1099 posts) -

@-Sun_Tzu-: hmm interesting. So do u believe in the human spirit/soul, is that part of being a spiritualist or not?

#18 Edited by -Sun_Tzu- (17316 posts) -

@ariabed said:

@-Sun_Tzu-: hmm interesting. So do u believe in the human spirit/soul, is that part of being a spiritualist or not?

No, I don't.

#19 Posted by comp_atkins (31109 posts) -
#20 Posted by bforrester420 (1043 posts) -

They're both for the weak-minded that need to be coerced to "do unto others..." by fear or can't find any other purpose to life. Just like any other form of life, our purpose in life is to propagate our genes. No more, no less.

#21 Posted by SaintLeonidas (25719 posts) -

@bforrester420: hilarious how pathetic and arrogant this response comes off as!

#22 Posted by wis3boi (30901 posts) -

'spiritual' is a useless word with no meaning

#23 Posted by -Sun_Tzu- (17316 posts) -

They're both for the weak-minded that need to be coerced to "do unto others..." by fear or can't find any other purpose to life. Just like any other form of life, our purpose in life is to propagate our genes. No more, no less.

You must be fun at parties

#24 Posted by bforrester420 (1043 posts) -

@bforrester420 said:

They're both for the weak-minded that need to be coerced to "do unto others..." by fear or can't find any other purpose to life. Just like any other form of life, our purpose in life is to propagate our genes. No more, no less.

You must be fun at parties

I don't discuss religion or politics in mixed company.

#25 Edited by bforrester420 (1043 posts) -

@SaintLeonidas said:

@bforrester420: hilarious how pathetic and arrogant this response comes off as!

What is pathetic and arrogant is believing that there exists an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient being (pathetic)...and claiming to know its mind like Western religions portend (arrogant).

Like Mark Twain said; "Faith is believing what you know ain't so."

#26 Posted by -Sun_Tzu- (17316 posts) -

@SaintLeonidas said:

@bforrester420: hilarious how pathetic and arrogant this response comes off as!

What is pathetic and arrogant is believing that there's some omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient being that exists (pathetic)...and claiming to know its mind like Western religions portend (arrogant).

Like Mark Twain said; "Faith is believing what you know ain't so."

Agreed, except religion/faith =/= spirituality

#27 Edited by bforrester420 (1043 posts) -

@-Sun_Tzu- said:

@bforrester420 said:

@SaintLeonidas said:

@bforrester420: hilarious how pathetic and arrogant this response comes off as!

What is pathetic and arrogant is believing that there's some omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient being that exists (pathetic)...and claiming to know its mind like Western religions portend (arrogant).

Like Mark Twain said; "Faith is believing what you know ain't so."

Agreed, except religion/faith =/= spirituality

No, I suppose I was harsh in my criticism of spiritualism. I can get behind Buddhism, though I lack the self-discipline to practice. I've always been one of those "don't victimize others" types of spiritualists, though like any person I'm not perfect in following that tenet. Not believing in the supernatural makes it difficult to subscribe to any type of spiritualism.

#28 Posted by TheFlush (5416 posts) -

'spiritual' is such a vague term, everybody has another definition of it.

#29 Posted by SaintLeonidas (25719 posts) -

@SaintLeonidas said:

@bforrester420: hilarious how pathetic and arrogant this response comes off as!

What is pathetic and arrogant is believing that there exists an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient being (pathetic)...and claiming to know its mind like Western religions portend (arrogant).

Like Mark Twain said; "Faith is believing what you know ain't so."

As Sun_Tzu said, faith =/= spirituality. It also doesn't have to have anything to do with an omnipotent being, or any beliefs held by religions. You are making huge assumptions. My own spirituality lies in the fact that I believe we are all interconnected; in that we are all born from the same universe, made of the same matter, feel the same emotions, pain, have the same experiences, etc. I do not believe in a god. I do not believe to know how everything in the universe works. Nor do I meditate or believe in karma and all that jazz that tends to be associated with spirituality. As TheFlush mentioned, "spiritual" is a very vague term, spirituality is much more defined by the individual than religion.

#30 Posted by Master_Live (13630 posts) -

@ariabed said:

@Master_Live: what!!? That makes not one gram of sense.

:O You should bring your grievances at the next Council.

#31 Posted by HailtotheQueen (156 posts) -

If you ask me, there is a HUGE difference between spirituality and religion.

Someone who truly lives for God and is not judgmental is spiritual.

The average person who calls themselves a Christian is simply religious, and the truth be told someone who truly knows God knows that Christianity is not for God.

Although, I do believe that there are people who truly live for God, who think of themselves as a Christian because that's all they've ever known.

Overall, someone who truly lives for God is a follower of Christ, man of God (or) woman of God and is spiritual... NOT religious.

Back to the question, yes, there is a difference between spiritualty and religion... at least, in my mind there is.

This is why I hate words like spiritual. They have a million different meanings, depending on who you ask. Some say its a general belief in some kind of god and others say it has nothing to do with any god or religion. Everyone seems to have a different definition.

#32 Edited by BlackGenjii (220 posts) -

@ariabed said:

How does it work being a spiritual Atheist?

Someone who is an Atheist does not believe in God or Jesus and denies their existence, sadly one of the biggest reasons why some people hate God or don't believe in him is because of the majority of people who call themselves Christians. Many Christians make god look bad and are self-righteous, not to mention quick to judge others. Most Christians also act like if you've been abused as a child or have gone thru any sort of pain that it's because you did something to displease God and he's punishing you for it, this is a down right false lie. If only people who claimed to live for God would truly study the book of Jude (found near the end of the Bible). Jude said that people who say they are for God are suppose to be kind, compassionate and giving to others and are also suppose to be humble. He also said that most people who claim they are godly live in sin (he's not saying it's bad to sin, he means when your life is drenched in sin, which is the case with many so called Christians). Jude also mentioned how it is false to believe that once you've asked God into your life and go to church every Sunday that it's okay to commit any sin, a lot of Christians think this way. The truth be told ariabed if I didn't know God for who he is (kind, loving, merciful and very forgiving of our mistakes) and I went to church seeking God and saw how most Christians are, I myself might have ended up being an atheist.

I hope that my response answered that question and was helpful and not confusing.

#33 Posted by SaintLeonidas (25719 posts) -

@ariabed said:

How does it work being a spiritual Atheist?

Someone who is an Atheist does not believe in God or Jesus and denies their existence, sadly one of the biggest reasons why some people hate God or don't believe in him is because of the majority of people who call themselves Christians. Many Christians make god look bad and are self-righteous, not to mention quick to judge others. Most Christians also act like if you've been abused as a child or have gone thru any sort of pain that it's because you did something to displease God and he's punishing you for it, this is a down right false lie. If only people who claimed to live for God would truly study the book of Jude (found near the end of the Bible). Jude said that people who say they are for God are suppose to be kind, compassionate and giving to others and are also suppose to be humble. He also said that most people who claim they are godly live in sin (he's not saying it's bad to sin, he means when your life is drenched in sin, which is the case with many so called Christians). Jude also mentioned how it is false to believe that once you've asked God into your life and go to church every Sunday that it's okay to commit any sin, a lot of Christians think this way. The truth be told ariabed if I didn't know God for who he is (kind, loving, merciful and very forgiving of our mistakes) and I went to church seeking God and saw how most Christians are, I myself might have ended up being an atheist.

I hope that my response answered that question and was helpful and not confusing.

#34 Edited by foxhound_fox (86939 posts) -

Sam Harris is writing a book on this very thing. It's due out in September I think.

"Spiritual/spirituality" is a dirty word to most atheists and non-religious folk alike, as it implies a belief in the supernatural, which for all intents and purposes, is not true.

I'll let Harris tell you about it, he is much more erudite than I on the subject. I've personally taken issue with the term for many years.

Guess I should insert the link.

#35 Edited by limpbizkit818 (15024 posts) -

@bforrester420 said:

@SaintLeonidas said:

@bforrester420: hilarious how pathetic and arrogant this response comes off as!

What is pathetic and arrogant is believing that there exists an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient being (pathetic)...and claiming to know its mind like Western religions portend (arrogant).

Like Mark Twain said; "Faith is believing what you know ain't so."

As Sun_Tzu said, faith =/= spirituality. It also doesn't have to have anything to do with an omnipotent being, or any beliefs held by religions. You are making huge assumptions. My own spirituality lies in the fact that I believe we are all interconnected; in that we are all born from the same universe, made of the same matter, feel the same emotions, pain, have the same experiences, etc. I do not believe in a god. I do not believe to know how everything in the universe works. Nor do I meditate or believe in karma and all that jazz that tends to be associated with spirituality. As TheFlush mentioned, "spiritual" is a very vague term, spirituality is much more defined by the individual than religion.

You are better off making up a new word for what you believe in. That is certainly not what "spirituality" has historically meant nor what most people believe it is.

Unless you believe what interconnects us is some non-material spirit or soul. Faith is the belief, without evidence, in some type of soul that exists independent of the mind. I'm not sure why you would want to split these terms up.

#36 Edited by limpbizkit818 (15024 posts) -

@foxhound_fox said:

Sam Harris is writing a book on this very thing. It's due out in September I think.

"Spiritual/spirituality" is a dirty word to most atheists and non-religious folk alike, as it implies a belief in the supernatural, which for all intents and purposes, is not true.

I'll let Harris tell you about it, he is much more erudite than I on the subject. I've personally taken issue with the term for many years.

Guess I should insert the link.

Hitchens I love to death, but was never a big fan of Harris. May be because I find Hitchens interesting on more topics than just religion. Anyway, Harris says:

The word “spirit” comes from the Latin spiritus, which in turn is a translation of the Greek pneuma, meaning “breath.” Around the 13th century, the term became bound up with notions of immaterial souls, supernatural beings, ghosts, etc.

"I strive for precision in my use of language, but I do not share these semantic concerns."

So in order to be precise we need to use the old Greek definition of words from 800+ years ago? Riiiiight

#37 Edited by -Sun_Tzu- (17316 posts) -

Sam Harris is writing a book on this very thing. It's due out in September I think.

"Spiritual/spirituality" is a dirty word to most atheists and non-religious folk alike, as it implies a belief in the supernatural, which for all intents and purposes, is not true.

I'll let Harris tell you about it, he is much more erudite than I on the subject. I've personally taken issue with the term for many years.

Guess I should insert the link.

Yeah Sam Harris has written a lot about this. It's nice to see a prominent atheist do his part in breaking up the imaginary friend club cartel on spirituality.

#38 Posted by Aljosa23 (24306 posts) -

I'd consider myself a realist, alright? But in philosophical terms I'm what's called a pessimist... I think human consciousness is a tragic misstep in evolution. We became too self-aware. Nature created an aspect of nature separate from itself - we are creatures that should not exist by natural law... We are things that labor under the illusion of having a self, that accretion of sensory experience and feelings, programmed with total assurance that we are each somebody, when in fact everybody's nobody... I think the honorable thing for our species to do is to deny our programming. Stop reproducing, walk hand in hand into extinction - one last midnight, brothers and sisters opting out of a raw deal.

#39 Edited by SaintLeonidas (25719 posts) -

@Aljosa23 said:

I'd consider myself a realist, alright? But in philosophical terms I'm what's called a pessimist... I think human consciousness is a tragic misstep in evolution. We became too self-aware. Nature created an aspect of nature separate from itself - we are creatures that should not exist by natural law... We are things that labor under the illusion of having a self, that accretion of sensory experience and feelings, programmed with total assurance that we are each somebody, when in fact everybody's nobody... I think the honorable thing for our species to do is to deny our programming. Stop reproducing, walk hand in hand into extinction - one last midnight, brothers and sisters opting out of a raw deal.

#40 Posted by Ariabed (1099 posts) -

@Master_Live: my grievance will just fall on deaf ears as usual :(

#41 Edited by Braun_Roid_Rage (704 posts) -

@Aljosa23 said:

I'd consider myself a realist, alright? But in philosophical terms I'm what's called a pessimist... I think human consciousness is a tragic misstep in evolution. We became too self-aware. Nature created an aspect of nature separate from itself - we are creatures that should not exist by natural law... We are things that labor under the illusion of having a self, that accretion of sensory experience and feelings, programmed with total assurance that we are each somebody, when in fact everybody's nobody... I think the honorable thing for our species to do is to deny our programming. Stop reproducing, walk hand in hand into extinction - one last midnight, brothers and sisters opting out of a raw deal.

WTF? You're crazy, man.

#42 Posted by The-Apostle (12108 posts) -

@Aljosa23 said:

I'd consider myself a realist, alright? But in philosophical terms I'm what's called a pessimist... I think human consciousness is a tragic misstep in evolution. We became too self-aware. Nature created an aspect of nature separate from itself - we are creatures that should not exist by natural law... We are things that labor under the illusion of having a self, that accretion of sensory experience and feelings, programmed with total assurance that we are each somebody, when in fact everybody's nobody... I think the honorable thing for our species to do is to deny our programming. Stop reproducing, walk hand in hand into extinction - one last midnight, brothers and sisters opting out of a raw deal.

#43 Posted by XilePrincess (13102 posts) -

Spiritualism is believing in, connecting with and feeling the presence of your chosen deity, god, all-powerful being, etc.

Religion is that, but with a strict set of rules about what you can and can't do, outdated texts and laws that one is supposed to rigidly follow, and paying money to a church, sometimes as a requirement. Not everyone who is religious is spiritual, many are just scared and going with the masses so as not to burn in hell for eternity.


Basically religion is a furnished basement apartment, and spiritualism is owning your own house.

When you own your own house, you can paint or tear down walls or add a toilet in a closet if you feel like it. You can plant trees or cut them down or put in a pool or fill your yard with rocks. It's up to you, it's your house.

In an apartment, the stuffy old landlady who lives upstairs won't let you paint anything, change anything, and if you so much as think of trying to hang anything where there isn't already a nail, you'd better pack your bags. And don't even think about trying to replace the tacky 60s floral window treatments or the matching couch...They were fashionable in 1962 and that makes them still 'in' now.

#44 Posted by Ariabed (1099 posts) -

@BlackGenjii: @XilePrincess: lol!!! that's a simple but effective way of looking at religion, well some religions anyway, and I will use that analogy also, but I reckon there's more to spiritualism than just connecting with god or all powerful being, there seems to be many forms spiritualism, but yeh like you say spiritualism is free form no rules and regulations, and some religions are a dictatorship.

@blackgenji, the Book of Jude teaches a more spritual side to religion and less uniform, I haven't read the bible yet but what is the book of Jude? Why is this way of religion not taught?

#45 Edited by foxhound_fox (86939 posts) -

@Aljosa23 said:

[...] I think human consciousness is a tragic misstep in evolution. We became too self-aware. Nature created an aspect of nature separate from itself - we are creatures that should not exist by natural law... We are things that labor under the illusion of having a self, that accretion of sensory experience and feelings, programmed with total assurance that we are each somebody, when in fact everybody's nobody... [...]

What if our sensory perception is one of the higher states life can take? Beyond instinct?

As for the illusion of self, there is a field of spiritual contemplation that denies we have a self: Buddhism. They define our state as an "accretion of sensory experience and feelings" along with various other supernatural beings and mythology, but I digress. The main element in Buddhism is accepting there is no "self" to cling to, thus we merely accept the transience of life, and live in the moment. Most forms of Buddhism tend to distract from this pillar, and go off on ritual tangents, but Zen distills it very nicely.

Personally, I don't consider myself a Buddhist, but I do like some of the approaches the various masters and teachers and wise-men have taken over the centuries to try and explain our lot in life... and remain optimistic about it.

#46 Posted by Aljosa23 (24306 posts) -

@Aljosa23 said:

I'd consider myself a realist, alright? But in philosophical terms I'm what's called a pessimist... I think human consciousness is a tragic misstep in evolution. We became too self-aware. Nature created an aspect of nature separate from itself - we are creatures that should not exist by natural law... We are things that labor under the illusion of having a self, that accretion of sensory experience and feelings, programmed with total assurance that we are each somebody, when in fact everybody's nobody... I think the honorable thing for our species to do is to deny our programming. Stop reproducing, walk hand in hand into extinction - one last midnight, brothers and sisters opting out of a raw deal.

WTF? You're crazy, man.

If the only thing keeping a person decent is the expectation of divine reward then, brother, that person is a piece of shit. And I'd like to get as many of them out in the open as possible. You gotta get together and tell yourself stories that violate every law of the universe just to get through the goddamn day? What's that say about your reality?

#47 Edited by thegerg (14413 posts) -

@XilePrincess: You seem to have a very narrow-minded approach to religion. Religion is as simple as a belief about the nature and cause of the universe. It does not require any exchange of money or adherence to rules from an ancient text.

#48 Edited by SaintLeonidas (25719 posts) -

@Aljosa23 said:

@Braun_Roid_Rage said:

@Aljosa23 said:

I'd consider myself a realist, alright? But in philosophical terms I'm what's called a pessimist... I think human consciousness is a tragic misstep in evolution. We became too self-aware. Nature created an aspect of nature separate from itself - we are creatures that should not exist by natural law... We are things that labor under the illusion of having a self, that accretion of sensory experience and feelings, programmed with total assurance that we are each somebody, when in fact everybody's nobody... I think the honorable thing for our species to do is to deny our programming. Stop reproducing, walk hand in hand into extinction - one last midnight, brothers and sisters opting out of a raw deal.

WTF? You're crazy, man.

If the only thing keeping a person decent is the expectation of divine reward then, brother, that person is a piece of shit. And I'd like to get as many of them out in the open as possible. You gotta get together and tell yourself stories that violate every law of the universe just to get through the goddamn day? What's that say about your reality?

#49 Edited by Aljosa23 (24306 posts) -

@Aljosa23 said:

@Braun_Roid_Rage said:

@Aljosa23 said:

I'd consider myself a realist, alright? But in philosophical terms I'm what's called a pessimist... I think human consciousness is a tragic misstep in evolution. We became too self-aware. Nature created an aspect of nature separate from itself - we are creatures that should not exist by natural law... We are things that labor under the illusion of having a self, that accretion of sensory experience and feelings, programmed with total assurance that we are each somebody, when in fact everybody's nobody... I think the honorable thing for our species to do is to deny our programming. Stop reproducing, walk hand in hand into extinction - one last midnight, brothers and sisters opting out of a raw deal.

WTF? You're crazy, man.

If the only thing keeping a person decent is the expectation of divine reward then, brother, that person is a piece of shit. And I'd like to get as many of them out in the open as possible. You gotta get together and tell yourself stories that violate every law of the universe just to get through the goddamn day? What's that say about your reality?

Yeah. Fuck this. Fuck this world.

Nice hook, Marty.

#50 Posted by lightleggy (15836 posts) -

@Aljosa23 said:

@Braun_Roid_Rage said:

@Aljosa23 said:

I'd consider myself a realist, alright? But in philosophical terms I'm what's called a pessimist... I think human consciousness is a tragic misstep in evolution. We became too self-aware. Nature created an aspect of nature separate from itself - we are creatures that should not exist by natural law... We are things that labor under the illusion of having a self, that accretion of sensory experience and feelings, programmed with total assurance that we are each somebody, when in fact everybody's nobody... I think the honorable thing for our species to do is to deny our programming. Stop reproducing, walk hand in hand into extinction - one last midnight, brothers and sisters opting out of a raw deal.

WTF? You're crazy, man.

If the only thing keeping a person decent is the expectation of divine reward then, brother, that person is a piece of shit. And I'd like to get as many of them out in the open as possible. You gotta get together and tell yourself stories that violate every law of the universe just to get through the goddamn day? What's that say about your reality?

This is a huge misconception about Christians...

No, Christians don't like doing good stuff to get to heaven...we like doing good stuff because doing good stuff feels good, it feels very nice to help someone else, it's simply human nature.

And also something that atheists usually don't know is that a person cant find salvation via deeds alone, in other words you may have the greatest charity in the world but if you're not Christian then you haven't found salvation, we are saved because of faith and grace, not deeds.