Should WikiLeaks leaker Chelsea Manning receive gender reassignment treatment while at Fort Leavenworth?

we could have different ideas on what constitutes gender theory...

Do you think gender (being a man or a woman) is a social construct? Do you think that you could raise males as girls?

Sex/Gender different sides of the same dice

For most people their sex matches their gender, so a lot of the time it is. But no they are not the same thing and they can at times be different.

You are right when it comes to that person's own perception, but for everyone else Gender and Sex are still the same. A Man is a man even if its a MTF and a women is still a women even as a FTM.

Just look at the whole WBW debate about those Lesbian camps in the US, where they refused to allow post-op MTF.

In terms of biology they are still the sex they were born with but why does that matter? You can't see chromosomes with the bare eye.

When it comes to sociology, gender is the important factor.

Why it matters? well, it matters because facts are facts. You might put gender down to a psychological state but sex is a key item of gender, so yes you can have a male feeling like a woman or a woman feeling like man, but they are still in terms of biology, a man/women. Also despite what some liberal woman org. want people to think there is and have been proven a psychologically a difference between men and women which doesn't suddenly become irrelevant because that man dresses up as a women. Not to mention that most people no matter what sexual orientation they have, dont want a crying game on their hands.

Only if he foots the bill himself.

Did you listen to any thing I said? Sex is not the key, gender is. Sex just determines whether you have a vagina or a penis. It is purely genetics. Why do you care what someone's DNA is? When you first meet someone do you ask for a name or a DNA test?

The fact that you acknowledge that men and women have different psychology yet still deny transgenderism is rather odd. People are trans because they have the psychology of the opposite sex. This might be a result as something during development.

Do you really think it's infeasible that a man may be born with a mind like a woman's? weirder conditions with the mind exist, so why does this seem to far-fetched for you?

I will never understand people who will go out of their way to dispute something that has no bearing on their own lives. It also bothers me extremely that people will go out of their way to make others feel shitty for their life choices.

Grow up.

Keep it civil, folks.

I believe the military should follow protocol and wait until 2040. Doing otherwise would set a precedent that the military does not follow standard procedure. The more empathetic decision would certainly be to give that individual the complete treatment, but that does not mean it is ethical.

I read what you wrote and i still do not agree.

Gender might be considered by the "experts" and you as something that is unrelated to sex, but for me and most people, Sex will always be a huge part of a Gender. Because sex is not something that can be removed, biologically a woman will always be a woman and a man will always be a man. Which also is why transgendered always have to keep taking the opposite hormone, even post-op MTF and FTM particular. And if they stop they will revert back to their org. sex.

So yes its impossible for a man to be born with a female brain and a woman to be born with a male brain if you look at the objective elements, what can happen is that something goes wrong and the wiring goes haywire, and that can change that person's perception of their own gender. Also what is worth noting is that most FTM in particular never removes their female "parts" and same goes for a part of MTF. So they clearly have a connection with the natural gender.

If you want to get technical, standard protocol would have been for the Army to charge Manning with fraudulent enlistment the day he admitted that he "felt female" since childhood since that means he lied about not being transgender when he enlisted.

The military doesn't explicitly ask if you are transgender but you are asked if you have "any other medical conditions not listed above" on the medical paperwork you fill out and knowingly being transgender would have fell within that area since it wasn't covered under DADT.

Some people discover that they are transgender after enlisting and they don't face punishment and are simply discharged. Manning screwed up by admitting that he felt that way since childhood, which means he knowingly enlisted with a disqualifying medical condition, which would have been no different than someone with asthma hiding it in order to join and being caught later.

While a fraudulent enlistment conviction is only two years behind bars, the conviction would have really made it harder for him to get early parole. The people making the decision whether or not to give you parole usually don't look too favorably to inmates that were convicted of a second crime while already confined.

It looks like opinions among the masses vary on this one, with these two examples:

Source

I think I am going to be the girl with the balls to say why most people don't agree with gender reassignments. People who have their marbles in a bag are afraid that one night they are going to meet a person they like, go to the bedroom with them, and BOOM! When the pants come off, it was not what they were expecting.

Come on guys and gals (and everything else in the middle.) The brain can be taught to be a different gender. No matter how you cut it, a penis cannot be taught to be a vagina (or vise versa.) Clearly transgenders are frowned upon, and they know it. How many people having "gender" issues growing up, then one day had something finally click in their heads to make them match with their sex? Those people were probably in the closet about it the whole time and that's why we don't hear about it. Thus, if we start making it "acceptable" for them to get treatment, then they're going to think it is "normal." The next thing you know, rather them trying to get things straighten out in their heads, they just go for the surgery. So then we're going to have MORE people who aren't what they seem. Which bring me back to my first point, this frightens us when we get to the bedroom.

Taxpayer money should not go to re-assigning that PoS's gender, simple as that. Absolutely ridiculous that they are doing this...

@darkmark91: Most people who are against Manning transitioning aren't against people who are transgender in general. While there may be some people who are homophobic or transphobic that are against it, the vast majority of the people against Manning don't care that he wants to be a woman. They care that he is an active duty servicemember who arguably committed treason that wants to use taxpayer dollars to become a woman while behind bars.

Most of the people protesting it don't have a problem with such transgender men and women as Chaz Bono or Laverne Cox, especially since they transitioned out of their own pockets and didn't hand over thousands of classified documents to a foreigner like Julian Assange before transitioning. Nor did they commit a crime and use the fact that they were transgender as an excuse for why they did it (Manning's lawyer blamed gender identity disorder as one of the reasons he leaked the documents).

In all reality, if every single person who thinks Manning is a whistleblower and not a traitor donated a dollar right now it would pay for Manning's transition many times over. Then the only issue Manning would have is waiting to get released.

I agree

YEEEAH **** SCIENCE GO 'MURICA **** TRANSWHATEVER FREEEEDOM TORTURE FOR QUEER MANNING FOR REVEAL FREEDOM JESUS SECRETS!

So, the correct answer is "She should not be in jail." That's the core of this issue.

Obama's new America.. its no wonder people around the world laugh at us now

People have been laughing at America for a very long time now. It's slowed down a bit now that Bush is out of office.

o ok

What is this bull shit? Hell no

The poll is straight sad.

@LordQuorthon: Seriously?

But yeah she should get the treatment.

I hear Obama Derangement Syndrome has been sweeping the nation. Have you checked your vehicle for the following symptoms?

Pretty much. If a doctor believes Manning needs it for her well being and they do not provide the treatment, that can fall under cruel and unusual punishment. But anyway this thread is dumb, just another thinly veiled transgender hate thread. boring

I don't really understand the thought process behind transgenders.

They feel like they were born with the wrong equipment, right? What I don't understand is why they put so much stock into their sex. Whether they get the treatment or not, they're still the same person; it doesn't truly change anything.

The whole concept of gender is flawed and outdated imo. We're all individuals; dividing behaviors into two groups and saying "If you have a wiener, act like this; If you have a vagina, act like that," is completely ridiculous; and I think these socially constructed gender roles are the root of the problem. We have these people trying to make parts they don't have just to fit themselves into a group when the groups shouldn't even exist in the first place.

Of course, like I said, I don't understand the issue; maybe I've got it all wrong, but that's the way it seems to me.

I didn't make this thread to bash people who are transgender. I would feel the same way about Manning if he was straight. Most people who don't like Manning feel that way over the WikiLeaks scandal but his desire to be a woman has overshadowed the actual crime that put him in the USDB and has literally made him a rallying point for the LGBT cause in terms of the military. People are forgetting about the actual crime and are calling anybody who thinks ill of Manning as transphobic.

If anything, people who are pushing for the right for people who are transgender to openly serve in the military should hate Manning. Manning's lawyer actually tried to use the fact that he was transgender as one of the reasons for the leaks and that may have set back any chance for allowing people who are transgender to serve for years. Every time somebody brings it up an opponent only has to say three words: Chelsea, Manning, and WikiLeaks.

I would ask the other posters to open a new thread if they want to discuss whether or not being transgender is normal because I only want to discuss the merits of whether or not Manning specifically should be allowed to transition with or without tax dollars paying for it as an inmate while still under military control.

Don't really see why not. The incongruences with the military stuff doesn't seem like much of a reason to argue against it since we would just be feigning ignorance if we didn't grant it in the grounds that it leads to some inconsistencies

The answer to the question is really easy and there's not much room to debate it: if a doctor or doctors believe that Manning's well-being depends on the treatment then Manning should be provided for otherwise it is cruel and unusual punishment to deny her, which is illegal. You think this issue is more complicated than it really is. Besides, it's utterly pointless to ask random people with no qualifications in healthcare or rehabilitation how the government should treat an individual.

Go ahead, if they think they can justify the fiscal expense for it (a.k.a. medically), and if it's consistent with military law.

The transphobia problem comes not from you but mentally deficient scientifically illiterate fucktards shitposting in your thread, and every single thread related to transgenderism, with ignorant, obnoxious and arrogant nonsense that defies the medical and psychological consensus on the topic for no real reason or purpose under than to maintain an unjust social attitude towards millions of human beings.

LOL i have to admit i love it when liberals come into a thread and pretend like they have the only right opinion and anyone who think otherwise are just dumb.

Anyways personally i have no feelings towards FTM or MTF as long as they dont play a "cryinggame" and are honest about their situation.

All we really know is that Manning was diagnosed with gender identity disorder by at least two military doctors. We don't know if any doctor actually stated that it is medically required for Manning's well-being to be allowed to transition while locked up. Medical records are protected under HIPAA even for inmates, so it's not like we can take a peek in there and see if the doctor said either allow Manning to transition or else. We do know Manning's lawyer and several LGBT activists supporting him said it is necessary but that isn't a medical diagnosis.

This is kind of a grey area with Manning because of the fact that the military usually just kicks you out if you are found to be transgender. They can't kick him out while he is serving his sentence. But at the same time, the Army tried to send Manning to a civilian prison that had better understanding of the treatment a trans woman requires and the transfer request was denied, so the next best thing is what they are proposing, which is to do it themselves.

Regardless of my opinion of him, I would rather not deny any necessary treatment and if the treatment is the difference between him leaving the USDB as scheduled with long hair and a pair of breasts and leaving in a body bag because he hanged himself I would rather give him the treatment. Not because I really care but because the conspiracy accusations against the government would never end if he died behind bars.

Rather than denying the treatment, if the Army is going to give it to him they should just give him a bill for the treatment. He has the money, since you still get paid in pretrial confinement while in the military (this fact caused a huge outcry when people found out the Fort Hood shooter was still getting paid). A single PFC gets around $2,000 a month before taxes, so multiply that by 39 (the months between Manning's 2010 arrest and 2013 conviction) and you know he has a decent nest egg.

As for the poll, this is an internet forum. We ask each other questions so we can get opinions despite the fact that we know those opinions aren't going to affect official policy or treatment.

The expense probably isn't that high (the Army would actually spend more in a week sending one battalion to the field to train than it would cost to pay for hormone therapy or a sex change). However, the military has the authorization to recoup medical expenses that aren't considered "in the line of duty," such as making somebody who was caught huffing canned air and got sick pay for their treatment. As for military law, if they go by that they would need to charge Manning for hiding the fact that he was transgender when he enlisted but other than that Manning is the Army's problem for the next 30 years.

Gender is a term that was developed within the last 60 years by psychologists who don't/can't really know how the mind works.

Sex (M/F) is present in most eukaryotic organisms where distinct dimorphic traits are apparent and has been established for millions of years.

See the difference? Your mind maybe too small to comprehend how foolish your "gender" labels are.

Reassignment surgery can definitely be costly, but hormone therapy isn't too bad (in the grand scheme of things). Mine are currently a touch under $30 a month before insurance, but that amount will triple by the time I'm eligible for reassignment.
About two-thirds of the monthly hormone cost comes from the anti-androgen used (which in the USA is typically Spironolactone). Obviously there is no need for an anti-androgen if Chelsea is able to go through reassignment surgery.

If we assume that reassignment surgery would cost $20k, then it would be cheaper to undergo reassignment some time in the second year of hormone therapy than to have her do hormone therapy for the next 30 years without surgery.

Of course, the cost of hormones vary from pharmacy to pharmacy and the cost of reassignment surgery depends on the surgeon.

Also, I'm only talking about vaginoplasty when using the term reassignment surgery. There is a misconception that other stuff like facial feminization and breast augmentation are covered under insurance and that just isn't true. Well, I don't know any insurance companies that cover them lol.

@-Toshy-: I guess I should have been more specific and stated it isn't that high compared to other Army costs. I already Googled the costs of hormone therapy and sex reassignment surgery and it isn't a lot compared to what the Army spends in training. When you factor in fuel costs (to include running vehicles at night for heat and power), training ammo, MREs, repair parts, and whatever else that is needed for that specific unit you can expect to spend around a hundred grand to train a battalion for one week. A lot more than what is needed to support a trans woman's transition. Even going to the rifle range for one day may set a unit back between five and ten grand in ammo and fuel.

Despite that, the military prefers to run a benefit vs cost review when it comes to medical procedures. The military will pay for a medical procedure such as eye surgery because it will make a servicemember more effective in combat and they don't have to issue a half dozen frames for their various pieces of equipment they wear on their head. On the other hand, paying the costs of allowing a person who will be dishonorably discharged in a few years for what the Army (who normally denies enlistment to people who identify as transgender) may consider a cosmetic procedure may not cut the mustard in many cases if doctors don't say it is medically required. In Manning's case, the Army approved most of the treatment and we'll see where they go from there.

It's truly amazing how such a high percentage of the population still (incorrectly) thinks that your genitals determine your gender.

So who are you to say that people are incorrect when they judge gender on biology?

What you said is like dressing a dog up in a cat costume and say thats a cat. No its still a dog, its just a dog in a cat costume.

Who are you to say that he's wrong for saying that gender isn't determined by your genitals?

You have no actual evidence to support your argument, it seem to be entirely based on a hatred of trans people.

Im sorry did you really try to argue against biology? do you want to question Gravity, evolution or that water is wet next?

And no evidence, nah of course Biology 101 is something we all can question and disregard. If you want to argue that sex is not a vital part Gender , then that is your prerogative but i don't agree and clearly nature also strongly disagrees, since those people having a "gender disorder" will need to fool their body forever with hormones and also get cosmetic surgery.

Oh, and not forgetting that male and female are not just different because of their genitails , they are different in a lot of ways because thats how nature decided it should be. And if you want a example just look at why men and women dont compete in sports against each other, also its why Usain Bolt is almost a minute faster than the fastests women on the same distance.

That doesn't mean i dont accept and respect FTM´s and MTF´s and their life choice, it just means that i demand that same respect and acceptance back when i refuse to take part.

You're the one here arguing against biology, not me.

Did you run dry for good argments or what are you talking about? But please do tell how im i arguing against Biology ? after all its not me arguing that a Man can become a women by taking hormons.

If wanting to mutilate your genitals isn't a mental disorder, i don't know what is. If someone came into a doctors office wanting his arm surgically removed because he felt it didn't belong, he would be sent to a nut house

Sad how this turned out

On one hand I don't see the harm, on the other It's not a treatment Manning requires because of illness or injury but rather something Manning wants done on a personal level which I don't think should be covered by anyone besides Manning.

They should also throw in some lids and a boob job.

Yep.

He's lucky he wasn't convicted of treason.