Should the USA drinking age be lowered to 18?

Firstly, when I say "kids" I'm talking about "anyone who is under-aged". Though that's a weird thing for you to harp on in the first place. If the law is irrelevant, then what does it matter if they're 20 or 16? A 16 year old kid can pay an adult to buy booze for him just as effectively as a 20 year old man can, so it really doesn't matter in terms of this discussion.

Secondly, age laws DO effectively cut down on under-aged drinking. They clearly don't stop EVERYONE from breaking the law (no law can stop everyone from breaking the law, or else there wouldn't be people getting arrested for breaking laws), but they do cut down on underaged drinking. As several people has pointed out, the law drastically reduces the number of people willing to provide alcohol to under-aged people and makes under-aged people work harder in order to get alcohol (either by having to find someone who'll provide them with a fake ID, figuring out a way to steal alcohol, or having to find someone who is willing to illegally purchase the alcohol for them).

The point of the laws was never to stop EVERYONE who is under-aged from getting alcohol (again, no law can stop EVERYONE from breaking such a law), the point of the laws is to cut down on under-aged drinking. And it works.

If you can be drafted into war, you should be able to drink. End of discussion.

I fail to really see the connection.

Again, I'm not saying that the legal drinking age shouldn't be lowered, I just fail to see the connection between those two things.

@MrGeezer: Firstly, it matters because sixteen year olds have adults in their life with authority over their day to day behaviors, while eighteen year olds do not. Also because of the thread title. Secondly, I disagree. Great you got anecdotes about how some folks never knowingly sold booze to kids. As counter example, I have never known someone in the eighteen through twenty range who ever had trouble getting their hands on booze. Not even one. Of those that decided to drink most of them actually started drinking less after they turned 21, not more.

I am however guessing you don't put much faith in anecdotes unless they back your preconception. So here is what raising the drinking age does in our modern rebellious culture. Instead of binge drinking being someone stupid teenagers did to have fun, it became a badge of honor to show no one can tell you what to do. Might have a lot of reason why in my experience teen drinkers slow down once they can buy their own. Laws like these only work if the people they are trying to control accept them.\

Much like with weed, if no one really cares all you do is spend billions trying to control people until you just give up.

@kittennose: Again, as I pointed out, ENFORCEMENT plays a heavy role here.

From the article that you posted, "One third of vendors 'never ask for ID'".

So, you're showing an article about a ban in a different country, in which enforcement of the laws is so lax that a freaking third of vendors "never" even feel the need to ask for ID. That is most certainly NOT applicable to the USA (and keep in mind that that this thread is specifically about the USA's law's).

EDIT: Also, as far as 16 year old's having adults controlling their lives, what world do you think you're living in? Do you think that the parents of 16 year old kids monitor their kids all the time just because they're minors? 16 year olds can easily get alcohol, tobacco, pornography, pregnancies, and crack. Are you somehow under the impression that the parents of 16 year old kids are monitoring their kids 24/7 to ensure that their kids don't hang out near the convenience store and bride a scummy looking adult into buying them a case of beer? The 16 year old living with his parents and the 18 year old in his own apartment are BOTH defying authority and the rules. What the hell makes you think that "being watched by parents" is going to keep 16 year olds from getting beer any more than it keeps them from getting marijuana or cigarettes or meth?

@MrGeezer: There really doesn't seem to be much enforcement in the US either. You know, cause of all the rampant underage drinking and the fact that no one curious about booze actually waits until they are 21. Did you really ignore every other part of the article that disagreed with your preconception?

See my previous post with the articles about arresting store clerks and stores losing their licenses even for short periods of time or the fact that Kroger cards white haired little old ladies over a bottle of wine.

@playmynutz: Well in some states like NY. You can drink at home under parental permission and supervision. Last I checked.

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Ultimately the law is intended to crack down on drunk driving and wild parties. Which are scenarios where poor decisions are made. Not raid private homes that aren't causing a ruckus.

While you can be drafted and what not at 18. The celebral cortex portion of the human brain. That gives us the ability to make judgements about situations. Isn't fully developed till your mid 20's (at least 25 usually). While tobacco products have harmful health affects as well. Alcohol takes away what ever ability teenagers have in wise decision making. And statistically speaking, teenagers make a lot of bad decisions. Which is why car insurance is super expensive for teens and young adults.

@jak42: Had no idea In NY drinking is okay with parental supervision. Like in the movies the parents get in trouble but not in NY haha that's cool. Cigarettes and eating junk food is unhealthy and both are legal. Uber and AI cars are reducing drunk driving. I have heard many people agree oh it's for the well being of humanity alcohol is limited. Then we drink a gallon of soda and smoke cigs. If the government really cared about our health they would limit more than just alcohol. What is there a monetary incentive to limit alcohol? Maybe adult detention centers make most of their revenue from drunk driving I don't know. I'm drunk right now ;-)

While consumption by under aged drinkers is not expressly prohibited, furnishing alcohol is as is possession of it. State Profiles of Underage Drinking Laws. NY state law also prohibits more than a .02% BAC for drivers under 21.

@playmynutz: I don't think its just a health issue. When you eat junk food, you just affect yourself and it won't kill you anytime soon. Unless you have an underlying condition.

Alcohol unlike soda and potato chips, severely affects someone's judgement. And it is frequently used as an excuse to act up. Although such excuses don't hold up in court. AI cars are still a long way from becoming a mainstream reality. And it doesn't solve another big issue related to alcohol. That being rape. My best friend for instance was influenced into a vodka drinking competition as a teen. She blacked out, and woked up with her pants down. Ended up dropping out of HS to coupe with the physiological damage.

No, if anything it should be raised to 25

Its about the consistency of laws speaking on citizens responsibilities.

He is saying that if we have laws that say at a certain age a person is responsible and ready enough to be a trained killer, shipped off to a foreign country and then potentially be murdered for this "responsibility" placed on them, then it only makes sense that the drinking age should be the same.

And yet it stops no adult living on their own from drinking. The only thing that stops them is themselves. Intimidating Kroger into inconveniencing old ladies isn't a victory if 19 year olds can have as much 151 as they desire. Which is of course a fun side effect of restricting access to alcohol. When it is restricted, people stop drinking beer and start drinking stronger and stronger booze.

I dont know about that specific article but from my perspective myself and those i grew up with rarely got carded for booze or cigarettes. But we wouldnt even get carded going into bars for shows and what not. It was different era but i still see a lot of the same things going on today.

In fact whats funny is i get carded now more than i did when i was younger and Walmart for some odd reason, has this really weird habit of never carding me for liquor, beer or wine, but i got carded when i bought MKX and GTA5.

@jak42: If an alcohol limit is a government moral duty so people don't commit crimes then they should limit other things. Well they do like no more trans fat. I think either they go all out and really ban things like the NYC large soda ban or not ban anything at all and let people decide. Okay we need driving regulations maybe I would go as far to say it's too much regulation and drive at your own discretion. It would lead to innovation because society would be forced to think of a transportation solution.

@playmynutz: Well the American government already tried banning alcohol via Prohibition. And it was a massive faliure.

So the next step is to simply regulate the use of alcohol. Which has historically been linked to bad decision making. With verses in Proverbs 31, highlighting the negative effects of alcohol consumption in government affairs. And with machinery that can injure someone being very prevalent in today's society. Any substance that has a strong influence on decision making and self awareness. Has to be regulated for the sake of legal issues and for an orderly society.

The reasoning that one is not responsible enough to drink until age 21, but responsible enough to serve in a war. Y

@jak42: Some people can't handle their alcohol so we all get limited. In my state you can't buy alcohol from a gas station after midnight. The way alcohol is regulated does prevent crime. The law is fine as it is. Society isn't ready for government sponsored open bars!

Excuse me, but what?! Companies that sell alcohol are required to be licensed and ABSOLUTELY get checked to make sure that they are in compliance. You aren't aware that under-aged people get sent in to buy alcohol for the specific purpose of trying to test whether or not businesses actually check ID?

Old enough to die for your country. Not old enough to have a drink before you die... They're old enough to vote, which means they're trusted with an action that could potentially impact how their country is run. They're old enough to buy cigarettes, and begin the long road to destroying their lives (honestly, they've probably already been smoking). Old enough to go to college, can't legally drink (which all college students do anyway) until they graduate from college. Old enough to be legally an adult and the responsiblities that lie within. I've always viewed 21 to be a completely arbitrary number. Why not 22? So let them drink legally at 18. Not like it's going to make any difference. They're doing it anyway.

Did the people who decided that 18 was responsible enough to serve in a war have anything to do with deciding that 18 wasn't responsible enough to legally drink? What EXACTLY is the justification for the draft age being 18 while the drinking age being 21?

Because, again, we're talking about 2 different things.

@MrGeezer: Yes I am aware. I could also give you six stores within a mile of my location where if they know you and you are willing to pay double you can buy booze without id. When you become a regular you don't even have to pay double anymore. Your argument is silly. It is like claiming no one speeds because cops give people tickets. Yeah it is against the law and if you are super stupid about it you will get into trouble, but people will still tailgate you while leaning on their horn if you are enough of a jerk to only go three miles over the speed limit.

Common courtesy demands at least seven.

I would state 19 is the perfect age here, old enough to keep it from being even more prevalent in high schools than the student age of 18, yet young enough to allow most anyone who is off to war to drink (after basic and specialty training most are already 19 anyways, if not, it won't be long).

Of course no law is not gonna stop everyone. The idea is to limit it. Notice that if under aged and caught driving with a BAC over .02, you can and will lose your license. People sometimes have to learn the hard way.

Hell no, it's 18 here and i think it should raised to 21. Letting teenagers drink is beyond stupid.

This is the hard way.

Should be raised to 24.

In Ontario, Canada our drinking age is 19, and our rates of binge drinking are higher than most the US. There might be other factors, and it might just be better to lower it to 18 because an adult is an adult, but if your concern is health, then it's not the right way to go.

Personally, I'd be okay with reducing it to 18, but tax it. Money is a better way to deter young people from buying it than laws. It should also be used fund rehabilitation programmes. I'd be okay with giving partial rebates to people older than 25 on their alcohol taxes, although that might complicate the tax code.

And they will never drink another drop of alcohol again.

I was drafted when I was 18. All I wanted to do was try Whiskey before I died.

Funny that you bring up speeding as an analogy. Should we get rid of speeding laws since the laws don't stop anyone from speeding?

Drinking is even easier to regulate. At least with alcohol, there has to be a supplier and those suppliers can easily lose their jobs and licenses (and along with that, their ability to supply alcohol). With speeding, literally ALL of the enforcement happens AFTER the law was broken which means that the law can't stop ANYONE from going as fast as their car will allow them to go.

So, by that same logic, we should get rid of speed laws too. Driving 55 mph in a 20 mph school zone? Why make laws against that when literally ANYONE driving a car can just do it if they feel like it?

@MrGeezer: My position is that having the law set at 18 or 21 is irreverent. Just like people who drive 60 in a 55, people who are 18 drink if they wish to without any real effort or consequence. If you wish to argue against an anarchist you will have to go find one.

@balrogbane This argument never gets traction among young people wanting it to be legal to drink at 18, but I think we should instead raise the age of joining the military to 21. A lot of maturity growth can happen over the course of three years, and I would think a lot people would grow out of wanting to risk there lives. In effect we would have less troops to send to war, and just maybe stay out of a few more wars due in part to this reason. Better yet we could start teaching kids about our long bipartisan history of not meeting our promises to the people who fight in our military in public schools before they make that decision.

In theory we could still lower the drinking age a bit, but I still see a fair argument in letting kids experiencing adulthood a bit before they can immediately start drinking themselves stupid. Perhaps give them weed at 18 instead as it's been shown to be less detrimental to people's health.

Now that I'm way past the age of 18, no. Just means more opportunity for irresponsible kids on the road.

So, where should the age be set?

Also, it's "irrelevant", not "irreverent".

Also, just out of curiosity, are you stating for the record that you are in favor of doing away with speed laws? Do you think that it should be legal for people to drive 55mph in a 20mph school zone simply because the law doesn't "stop" anyone from simply disregarding the law and driving at whatever the hell speed they feel like?

@MrGeezer: So you are not arguing against my position?

@Serraph105:

Interesting, until I read your post I hadn't even thought of adjusting the military age, though it would differ.

And there you have my final answer: I would move both the drinking age and the age to join the military to age 19. Problem solved.

Sounds about right to me, I went to boot camp 5 days after my 19th birthday.

My stance is if you are considered an adult at 18......which drafting or volunteering for the military does.....and the courts do as well.....both criminal and civil....then alcohol should be a choice left to the adult. Which means....18 not 21.

It honestly should be 16. Kids around that age are already drinking, and being able to do so legally, in a controlled environment is so much better for everyone.

Access to both drinking and driving at that age? I don't think that is a good idea.

Still I think you should lower the drinking age to 18.

On a second thought. There is actually a couple of things you need to be 21 in Norway. License for heavy bike. Can get it at 20 if you take license for medium (something like that) when you are 18. I think it will be upgraded automatically, or you need to visit the traffic station and update your license. No new test required. I also think it is 21 for driving a bus and lorry.

When I was in high school, almost everyone I knew was either experimenting with drinking, or had at some point. We went on a band trip in grade 11 (we are talking about band nerds here), and almost half of the students brought booze and got caught with it in their rooms.

We already have a zero tolerance for blood alcohol while driving license program in effect, and the laws in place for drunk driving are incredibly severe (monetary fine, license suspension, vehicle impoundment for first offense).

Better to have kids drinking in a bar under the supervision of people trained to dispense alcohol, or at home with their parents, than at some party, and not having any control over the quantity or type of alcohol ingested.

It should go back to what it was. Little silly if they join the service and get stationed overseas they can drink but as soon as you return to the states it's deemed wrong.

Even the way it was back then was a mess. Some states were 21 (Cali for one) for everything, other states were 18 for beer, but 21 for wine and liquor and yet other states were 18 for everything. It all depended on the state you lived in. I always thought it screwed up that I could drink on base, yet as soon as I walked through the gates, I had to be 21 to have a beer with my pizza. Yes, screwed up, but I lived with it and just drunk on base.

Now we have people who want the feds to create laws for this and that while wanting them to overlook other laws. Why is that?

It was at one point at 18 years old. There were too many issues with 18 year olds having issues with coping with the alcohol and other health related issues. Ironically the National Safety Administration forced states to comply with new rules or lose funding. There are multiple sides to the argument. Some valid. Some fake. Take away the emotions of an 18 year old who just wants to drink earlier (never stopped me when I was a teenager over a decade ago) they will be fine. Focus on school and getting a job. Having access to bars, strip clubs and alcohol will come later.

You can die for your country but GOD FORBID IF YOU TAKE THAT DRINK!

Again, I don't see how that matters at all. Not many 18 year olds are mentally ready to accept the responsibility of alcohol. A lot for 20 year olds aren't either but that's a different topic. All it takes is one dumbass 18 year old kid to drive after drinking to kill an entire family. Them being able to go to war doesn't change that in any way whatsoever.

@Toxic-Seahorse: So your saying they are not mentally ready to accept responsibility for alcohol but they are ready to accept that theyve killed men, possibly women and children?

because you know thats what war is.... killing.

And just because alcohol is illegal doesnt mean they cant easily get ahold of it. I did a majority of the drinking in my life being UNDER AGE.

Alcohol is easy as shit to get

And why does it matter if your drunk and 18? you can be drunk and 65 and still kill a family.

IN FACT: I know more people that are of age that drink and drive than people who are underage that drink and drive.

Again, I don't see why that comparison is even valid. You can talk about whether 18 is too young to go to war or not, but that's a completely separate topic, and that's how it should be.