Senate votes 38-56 to strike down student loan bill

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#1 Posted by -Sun_Tzu- (17384 posts) -

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/06/11/elizabeth-warren-student-loan-refinance_n_5484662.html

Is democracy dead in America?

Was it ever alive?

"Unpaid student debt has doubled since 2007 to nearly $1.3 trillion, according to the Federal Reserve. Some 40 million Americans have student loan debt, according to the Education Department. The average borrower owes nearly $30,000."

"Sen. Lamar Alexander (R-Tenn.), the top Republican on the Senate education committee, said Wednesday it was more important to help current and future students rather than former students struggling with their debt."

"Other than Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.), who voted against the measure on procedural grounds in order to preserve Democrats’ ability to reconsider it at a later date, only Republicans voted against it. They said the measure wouldn’t help reduce the skyrocketing cost of college and argued that it was not the best way to help former students manage their debt."

Does anyone know what the Republican plan is to help former students manage their debt? Do they have a plan to help former students manage their debts? Do they care?

#2 Edited by Aljosa23 (24750 posts) -

lol pathetic. Two things I want to inquire about.

What the heck are they even doing to help current and future students?
Why does the cost keep going up if degrees aren't all that lucrative anymore?

#3 Posted by comp_atkins (31269 posts) -

the beauty of saying "we need to help future students rather than former students" is you can say that each year and you don't have to so shit.

#4 Edited by Riverwolf007 (23532 posts) -

their plan is the same thing it is every time.

blame immigrants.

also just as an aside since you asked about democracy.

there was never any real democracy in this country.

this has always been a republic where the privileged make the rules.

#5 Posted by -Sun_Tzu- (17384 posts) -
@Aljosa23 said:

What the heck are they even doing to help current and future students?

Maybe this is their way of finally saying they are willing to do something about climate cha-

hahahaha no who am I kidding they are just mustachio twirling super villains

#6 Posted by foxhound_fox (87725 posts) -

A good way to help students manage debt is to not embed in their minds when in school that college is the only way they can get a good job they can love.

Almost any career path offers advancement opportunities. Including flipping burgers at McDonalds or pushing carts at WalMart. The person just has to have the motivation to achieve.

#7 Posted by BeardMaster (1580 posts) -

@Aljosa23 said:

lol pathetic. Two things I want to inquire about.

What the heck are they even doing to help current and future students?

Why does the cost keep going up if degrees aren't all that lucrative anymore?

because the minimum wage isnt keeping up with inflation, and college education is increasingly becoming the only hope of escaping poverty.

Back in the 50 ans 60s you could have one parent working at the local gas station or hanging drywall, and afford a house and family.

Nowadays you need 2 college educated parents working full time to even hope of accomplishing the same feat.

#8 Edited by Aljosa23 (24750 posts) -

@Aljosa23 said:

lol pathetic. Two things I want to inquire about.

What the heck are they even doing to help current and future students?

Why does the cost keep going up if degrees aren't all that lucrative anymore?

because the minimum wage isnt keeping up with inflation, and college education is increasingly becoming the only hope of escaping poverty.

Back in the 50 ans 60s you could have one parent working at the local gas station or hanging drywall, and afford a house and family.

Nowadays you need 2 college educated parents working full time to even hope of accomplishing the same feat.

So it's essentially a supply/demand kind of thing?

#9 Posted by -Sun_Tzu- (17384 posts) -

there was never any real democracy in this country.

this has always been a republic where the privileged make the rules.

I agree with this.

But it's funny that it's gotten to the point where even our pretend democratic institutions don't follow the most basic of democratic principles, that being if my side has more votes than your side then my side wins.

I wonder how long will this charade go on for, and how does it end?

#10 Posted by airshocker (29042 posts) -

Why should the federal government help current and former students with their debt?

#11 Edited by -Sun_Tzu- (17384 posts) -

@airshocker said:

Why should the federal government help current and former students with their debt?

Because it's not good for the economy for such a large segment of the population to be saddled with so much debt, and because tens of millions of people are suffering as a result. Is that a good enough reason?

#12 Posted by airshocker (29042 posts) -

@airshocker said:

Why should the federal government help current and former students with their debt?

Because it's not good for the economy for such a large segment of the population to be saddled with so much debt, and because tens of millions of people are suffering as a result. Is that a good enough reason?

No. These people are adults that knew what getting into debt could possibly do to them. If they didn't, well, that's unfortunate. Everyone makes shitty decisions every once and awhile.

#13 Edited by BeardMaster (1580 posts) -

@Aljosa23 said:

@BeardMaster said:

@Aljosa23 said:

lol pathetic. Two things I want to inquire about.

What the heck are they even doing to help current and future students?

Why does the cost keep going up if degrees aren't all that lucrative anymore?

because the minimum wage isnt keeping up with inflation, and college education is increasingly becoming the only hope of escaping poverty.

Back in the 50 ans 60s you could have one parent working at the local gas station or hanging drywall, and afford a house and family.

Nowadays you need 2 college educated parents working full time to even hope of accomplishing the same feat.

So it's essentially a supply/demand kind of thing?

More of a balance of power thing. Workers have little to no bargaining power these days. Back then we had strong unions, laborers could bargain with their employers and demand higher wages. Today not so much, employers dictate the terms. Alot of jobs that traditionally only required a highschool degree or GED, now require a college education... simply because employers can demand it, and they know people will line up for the job.

Hell my grandfather was a mechanical engineer at pepperidge farm, never went to college. Try to get a mechanical engineering job without a degree today, employers will laugh at you.

#14 Posted by -Sun_Tzu- (17384 posts) -

@-Sun_Tzu- said:

@airshocker said:

Why should the federal government help current and former students with their debt?

Because it's not good for the economy for such a large segment of the population to be saddled with so much debt, and because tens of millions of people are suffering as a result. Is that a good enough reason?

No. These people are adults that knew what getting into debt could possibly do to them. If they didn't, well, that's unfortunate. Everyone makes shitty decisions every once and awhile.

So your position is basically that the entire economy has to suffer because tens of millions of kids in their late teens and early 20's got themselves into too much debt. Gotcha

So then I'm to assume then from your callous answer and smug self-righteousness that A) Republicans don't have a plan to address this issue and B) Don't care about these people

Thank you for clearing up my points of confusion :)

#15 Edited by jasean79 (2357 posts) -

That's because college is so expensive these days. The more money the federal government keeps putting into the hands of students in the way of loans, only enables the colleges and universities to keep upping the price of their tuition. When students have access to low-interest loans and government aid, colleges have no incentive to cut costs. Why should a college lower tuition if more students are able to pay with subsidized loans from the government?

Universities have no reason to lower tuition because they know whatever sticker price they put on a college degree, there will be students ready to take out low interest loans to pay for it. Subsidies and grants throw off the natural market signals that are supposed to allow students to make informed decisions on the true value of a college degree. Increasing aid, and expanding subsidies only intensifies the problem which will lead us down a path of more college dropouts and a continuation of skyrocketing tuition.

#16 Posted by -Sun_Tzu- (17384 posts) -

@jasean79 said:

That's because college is so expensive these days. The more money the federal government keeps putting into the hands of students in the way of loans, only enables the colleges and universities to keep upping the price of their tuition. When students have access to low-interest loans and government aid, colleges have no incentive to cut costs. Why should a college lower tuition if more students are able to pay with subsidized loans from the government?

Universities have no reason to lower tuition because they know whatever sticker price they put on a college degree, there will be students ready to take out low interest loans to pay for it. Subsidies and grants throw off the natural market signals that are supposed to allow students to make informed decisions on the true value of a college degree. Increasing aid, and expanding subsidies only intensifies the problem which will lead us down a path of more college dropouts and a continuation of skyrocketing tuition.

So what should be done with all the former students who are currently getting screwed from the after effects of this overly expensive college system of ours?

#17 Edited by Master_Live (14191 posts) -

Doesn't that suck.

#18 Posted by Master_Live (14191 posts) -

And talk about being melodramatic. "Was it ever alive". Do you make topics when Republicans bill get filibuster? They voted, it didn't pass. And that is that. If you want to use the full nuclear option, be my guest. Make my day.

#19 Posted by Aljosa23 (24750 posts) -

@BeardMaster: Word, I gotcha. Makes sense and I completely agree.

#20 Edited by airshocker (29042 posts) -

@-Sun_Tzu- said:

So your position is basically that the entire economy has to suffer because tens of millions of kids in their late teens and early 20's got themselves into too much debt. Gotcha

So then I'm to assume then from your callous answer and smug self-righteousness that A) Republicans don't have a plan to address this issue and B) Don't care about these people

Thank you for clearing up my points of confusion :)

What's hilarious is that you're actually trying to pretend that you care about these kids or the economy. I think you just really want this to be the first step in some sort of student debt forgiveness.

I got myself into too much debt as a teenager too. I worked and eventually paid it off. No reason these people can't do the same.

It's not the government's job to bail individuals out of their troubles. That pretty much throws the notion that people are responsible for their actions out the window. Eventually this will correct itself. People will realize that certain degrees are more marketable than others.

How about, instead of taking the arbitrary route, we actually focus on the root cause of all this debt which is the absurdly expensive nature of some colleges.

#21 Edited by -Sun_Tzu- (17384 posts) -

And talk about being melodramatic. "Was it ever alive". Do you make topics when Republicans bill get filibuster? They voted, it didn't pass. And that is that. If you want to use the full nuclear option, be my guest. Make my day.

You're describing simple majoritarianism as a "nuclear option" but I'm the one being melodramatic

#22 Edited by BeardMaster (1580 posts) -

@jasean79 said:

That's because college is so expensive these days. The more money the federal government keeps putting into the hands of students in the way of loans, only enables the colleges and universities to keep upping the price of their tuition. When students have access to low-interest loans and government aid, colleges have no incentive to cut costs. Why should a college lower tuition if more students are able to pay with subsidized loans from the government?

Universities have no reason to lower tuition because they know whatever sticker price they put on a college degree, there will be students ready to take out low interest loans to pay for it. Subsidies and grants throw off the natural market signals that are supposed to allow students to make informed decisions on the true value of a college degree. Increasing aid, and expanding subsidies only intensifies the problem which will lead us down a path of more college dropouts and a continuation of skyrocketing tuition.

whats the natural market? the one tech companies constantly lobby congress to import more foreign workers to fulfill?

Here is the thing, your butt buddy the free market dictates these college education requirements. And if they dont get then from american workers, they lobby congress to increase work visas from foreign countries or they threaten to outsource even more jobs.

You have identified a defunct system, but you have the wrong criminal.

#23 Posted by Master_Live (14191 posts) -

@Master_Live said:

And talk about being melodramatic. "Was it ever alive". Do you make topics when Republicans bill get filibuster? They voted, it didn't pass. And that is that. If you want to use the full nuclear option, be my guest. Make my day.

You're describing simple majoritarianism as a "nuclear option" but I'm the one being melodramatic

Oh Sunny boy, you know that is the common Washington parlance for that option, don't try to get too cute by half. Got any anything else?

#24 Edited by fueled-system (6257 posts) -

How about working out ways for college to be so unreasonably expensive instead of this, how about actually eliminating worthless classes and the unreasonable need to take classes that serve no purpose to the field of study(foreign language/biology/history/math)

Not my fault somebody went to college and got a worthless degree or took classes that served no purpose just because they were "fun". I am working on and nearly have payed off my student loan debt and I don't need any help from some stranger to do it.

#25 Posted by BeardMaster (1580 posts) -

How about working out ways for college to be so unreasonably expensive instead of this, how about actually eliminating worthless classes and the unreasonable need to take classes that serve no purpose to the field of study(foreign language/biology/history/math)

Not my fault somebody went to college and got a worthless degree or took classes that served no purpose just because they were "fun". I am working on and nearly have payed off my student loan debt and I don't need any help from some stranger to do it.

did you just list math as a worthless subject? are you special ed? goto monster.com look at the jobs for math majors. Some of the highest paying jobs in existence.

I never had student loan debt because my parents paid my tuition in full, suck it poor person. Im a job creator.

#26 Edited by -Sun_Tzu- (17384 posts) -

How about working out ways for college to be so unreasonably expensive instead of this

Why does it have to be an either/or dilemma? Why can't both issues be addressed?

And I can easily say "Oh well it ain't my fault that college is too expensive, college wasn't too expensive for me so what's everyone else's problem?" but that would come off as excessively self-righteous.

Another question I have is why are people so resentful of helping other people? It seems like some get a thrill out of acting superior than others.

#27 Edited by Aljosa23 (24750 posts) -

@fueled-system said:

How about working out ways for college to be so unreasonably expensive instead of this

Why does it have to be an either/or dilemma? Why can't both issues be addressed?

And I can easily say "Oh well it ain't my fault that college is too expensive, college wasn't too expensive for me so what's everyone else's problem?" but that would come off as excessively self-righteous.

Another question I have is why are people so resentful of helping other people? It seems like some get a thrill out of acting superior than others.

It's the "fuck you, got mine" mentality that is ruining America. Republican propaganda got poor people fighting poor people nowadays.

They are good at what they do. They're damn good.

#28 Posted by -Sun_Tzu- (17384 posts) -

@Aljosa23 said:

@-Sun_Tzu- said:

@fueled-system said:

How about working out ways for college to be so unreasonably expensive instead of this

Why does it have to be an either/or dilemma? Why can't both issues be addressed?

And I can easily say "Oh well it ain't my fault that college is too expensive, college wasn't too expensive for me so what's everyone else's problem?" but that would come off as excessively self-righteous.

Another question I have is why are people so resentful of helping other people? It seems like some get a thrill out of acting superior than others.

It's the "fuck you, got mine" mentality that is ruining America. Republican propaganda got poor people fighting poor people nowadays.

They are good at what they do. They're damn good.

It's crazy to think that not too long ago in historical terms Richard Nixon was president and proposing things like Obamacare, creating the EPA, implementing Affirmative Action, ect

Here I am reminiscing about a republican president actually helping people, I must be losing my mind.

#29 Posted by airshocker (29042 posts) -

@Aljosa23 said:

It's the "fuck you, got mine" mentality that is ruining America. Republican propaganda got poor people fighting poor people nowadays.

They are good at what they do. They're damn good.

What's wrong with forcing people to achieve things for themselves?

#30 Posted by thegerg (14859 posts) -

@Aljosa23 said:

lol pathetic. Two things I want to inquire about.

What the heck are they even doing to help current and future students?

Why does the cost keep going up if degrees aren't all that lucrative anymore?

"Why does the cost keep going up if degrees aren't all that lucrative anymore?"

Because of the easy availability of student loans. When the government loans money to so many people so they can afford an expensive education the schools are free to charge more and more.

#31 Posted by Serraph105 (27823 posts) -

I do wish the federal government put more emphasis on helping out the people it governs. Its incredible to me that people fight so hard against the concept of government working for the people. Unless of course those people are corporations.

#32 Edited by -Sun_Tzu- (17384 posts) -

@thegerg said:

@Aljosa23 said:

lol pathetic. Two things I want to inquire about.

What the heck are they even doing to help current and future students?

Why does the cost keep going up if degrees aren't all that lucrative anymore?

"Why does the cost keep going up if degrees aren't all that lucrative anymore?"

Because of the easy availability of student loans. When the government loans money to so many people so they can afford an expensive education the schools are free to charge more and more.

Why is college so cheap in other first world countries then where the government pays for pretty much everything?

#33 Posted by fueled-system (6257 posts) -

@BeardMaster:

@fueled-system said:

How about working out ways for college to be so unreasonably expensive instead of this, how about actually eliminating worthless classes and the unreasonable need to take classes that serve no purpose to the field of study(foreign language/biology/history/math)

Not my fault somebody went to college and got a worthless degree or took classes that served no purpose just because they were "fun". I am working on and nearly have payed off my student loan debt and I don't need any help from some stranger to do it.

did you just list math as a worthless subject? are you special ed? goto monster.com look at the jobs for math majors. Some of the highest paying jobs in existence.

I never had student loan debt because my parents paid my tuition in full, suck it poor person. Im a job creator.

stay classy, post like this are why this forum is dying... seriously grow up.

I am saying for majors where algebra has little to no relevancy in the field. No kidding math majors and areas where math is prevalent make great great money

#34 Posted by -Sun_Tzu- (17384 posts) -

@BeardMaster:

@BeardMaster said:

@fueled-system said:

How about working out ways for college to be so unreasonably expensive instead of this, how about actually eliminating worthless classes and the unreasonable need to take classes that serve no purpose to the field of study(foreign language/biology/history/math)

Not my fault somebody went to college and got a worthless degree or took classes that served no purpose just because they were "fun". I am working on and nearly have payed off my student loan debt and I don't need any help from some stranger to do it.

did you just list math as a worthless subject? are you special ed? goto monster.com look at the jobs for math majors. Some of the highest paying jobs in existence.

I never had student loan debt because my parents paid my tuition in full, suck it poor person. Im a job creator.

stay classy, post like this are why this forum is dying... seriously grow up.

I am saying for majors where algebra has little to no relevancy in the field. No kidding math majors and areas where math is prevalent make great great money

What's a worthwhile field where math has little to no relevancy?

#35 Posted by fueled-system (6257 posts) -

@fueled-system said:

@BeardMaster:

@BeardMaster said:

@fueled-system said:

How about working out ways for college to be so unreasonably expensive instead of this, how about actually eliminating worthless classes and the unreasonable need to take classes that serve no purpose to the field of study(foreign language/biology/history/math)

Not my fault somebody went to college and got a worthless degree or took classes that served no purpose just because they were "fun". I am working on and nearly have payed off my student loan debt and I don't need any help from some stranger to do it.

did you just list math as a worthless subject? are you special ed? goto monster.com look at the jobs for math majors. Some of the highest paying jobs in existence.

I never had student loan debt because my parents paid my tuition in full, suck it poor person. Im a job creator.

stay classy, post like this are why this forum is dying... seriously grow up.

I am saying for majors where algebra has little to no relevancy in the field. No kidding math majors and areas where math is prevalent make great great money

What's a worthwhile field where math has little to no relevancy?

Not many but still a few areas in terms of law and criminal justice and such areas though some of those don't really make much money.

#36 Posted by Master_Live (14191 posts) -

Come on Liz, baby, you gotta run. Can't let corporate Hillary take over the Democrat party.

#37 Posted by sonicare (53451 posts) -

Never been a huge fan of most entitlement programs, but education is one thing no smart country should neglect. You are investing in your future. Neglect that at your own risk. Too much focus on seniors and not enough on the generations that will be funding them. I guess young people just don't have enough voting power to matter.

It would be nice to see some research into why education costs keep escalating at alarming rates. One shouldnt have to amass huge debts just so they can be qualified for a future job.

#38 Posted by StrifeDelivery (1395 posts) -

Until higher education in the US becomes more in line with a good portion of the EU's system with little to no cost* for attending universities, the US higher education model will continue to see rapid increases in tuition costs simply because they can.

#39 Posted by HoolaHoopMan (7745 posts) -

This is something I really wanted to see pass. From an economic perspective it makes a lot of sense to help out debt straddled degree holders.

#40 Posted by -Sun_Tzu- (17384 posts) -

Come on Liz, baby, you gotta run. Can't let corporate Hillary take over the Democrat party.

Yes, now you understand

#41 Posted by Aljosa23 (24750 posts) -

@sonicare said:

Never been a huge fan of most entitlement programs,

Why? You can look it up yourself, entitlement programs like welfare, unemployment benefits, and food stamps are the most successful form of government stimulus.

#42 Posted by ferrari2001 (16815 posts) -

As someone who has student loans I can say I am happy this bill didn't pass. For several reasons.

1) The government was using student debt as a means to raise taxes on American citizens. Tackle the issue of student debt and stop trying to add agendas to the issues.

2) This bill does nothing to stifle the incredible growth of cost to attend a university. The cost of school is rising far faster then pay rise, inflation and the cost of living. There is absolutely no reason for this, this bill only continues to allow this process to continue, making college more and more expensive for students, continue to produce dangerous debt.

3) It's on a refinancing bill, meaning students are still in debt, they are just in debt longer.

#43 Posted by Blue-Sky (10315 posts) -

OP is wrong. The Senate didn't vote.

It was filibustered by Republicans to prevent them from voting. Otherwise it would have passed with the 58 pledged voters.

#44 Posted by -Sun_Tzu- (17384 posts) -

As someone who has student loans I can say I am happy this bill didn't pass. For several reasons.

1) The government was using student debt as a means to raise taxes on American citizens. Tackle the issue of student debt and stop trying to add agendas to the issues.

2) This bill does nothing to stifle the incredible growth of cost to attend a university. The cost of school is rising far faster then pay rise, inflation and the cost of living. There is absolutely no reason for this, this bill only continues to allow this process to continue, making college more and more expensive for students, continue to produce dangerous debt.

3) It's on a refinancing bill, meaning students are still in debt, they are just in debt longer.

1) So are you saying that you would've been more supportive of this measure if it was financed through deficit spending?

2) As has been already pointed out in this thread, that is not a reason to not support this specific bill. 'Tis a non sequitar

3) Why should refinancing not be an option for those with student loans?

#45 Posted by HoolaHoopMan (7745 posts) -

I'm confused as to why people assume that we either have to pass something like this to alleviate student debts OR just reform the system in order to lower tuition prices. This seems like a false dichotomy to me. They don't have to be mutually exclusive and its totally reasonable to tackle both issues. Its possible to set forward ideas for slowing the rise of tuition making college more affordable and help former students over burdened with debt.

As to the people/politicians advocating JUST to curtail tuition prices from rising, what exactly is your plan? What is the GOPs plan?

#46 Posted by lamprey263 (23189 posts) -

Naturally, the Republicans block any legislation that would be considered a positive during the Obama administration, simply to to prevent good things from happening so they can attack him on a lack of progress.

#47 Posted by Masculus (2830 posts) -

This is the sort of stuff that makes me laugh in desperate disbelief. After prohibiting default on student loans they come with this.

Democracy is truly live and well!

#48 Edited by -Toshy- (1350 posts) -
@fueled-system said:

how about actually eliminating worthless classes and the unreasonable need to take classes that serve no purpose to the field of study

This is a huge one. I'm currently majoring in Accounting at a Big Ten university and I'm required to take 60 credit hours of business/accounting courses and 79 credit hours of pure electives. Do I want to take extraneous classes just for the hell of it? Hell no. I would love to just take my required classes and graduate. But the university pushes unnecessary classes down our throats for the sole purpose of extending our time and getting more money from us. On top of that, I can't really justify not getting a degree because anyone looking over the resume would see I wouldn't have a bachelors and they would automatically throw it away.

Note: I've switched majors twice (over a span of 2 and a half years) so most of those classes got pushed to my electives. The funny part is that I still don't have my electives done even with all of those hours.

#49 Edited by thegerg (14859 posts) -

@-Toshy- said:
@fueled-system said:

how about actually eliminating worthless classes and the unreasonable need to take classes that serve no purpose to the field of study

This is a huge one. I'm currently majoring in Accounting at a Big Ten university and I'm required to take 60 credit hours of business/accounting courses and 79 credit hours of pure electives. Do I want to take extraneous classes just for the hell of it? Hell no. I would love to just take my required classes and graduate. But the university pushes unnecessary classes down our throats for the sole purpose of extending our time and getting more money from us. On top of that, I can't really justify not getting a degree because anyone looking over the resume would see I wouldn't have a bachelors and they would automatically throw it away.

"I'm required to take 60 credit hours of business/accounting courses and 79 credit hours of pure electives."

No. You're not required to to any such thing. You've chosen to take these classes.

"I would love to just take my required classes and graduate."

Then just do it.

#50 Edited by -Toshy- (1350 posts) -

@thegerg said:

@-Toshy- said:
@fueled-system said:

how about actually eliminating worthless classes and the unreasonable need to take classes that serve no purpose to the field of study

This is a huge one. I'm currently majoring in Accounting at a Big Ten university and I'm required to take 60 credit hours of business/accounting courses and 79 credit hours of pure electives. Do I want to take extraneous classes just for the hell of it? Hell no. I would love to just take my required classes and graduate. But the university pushes unnecessary classes down our throats for the sole purpose of extending our time and getting more money from us. On top of that, I can't really justify not getting a degree because anyone looking over the resume would see I wouldn't have a bachelors and they would automatically throw it away.

"I'm required to take 60 credit hours of business/accounting courses and 79 credit hours of pure electives."

No. You're not required to to any such thing. You've chosen to take these classes.

"I would love to just take my required classes and graduate."

Then just do it.

When I say required classes, I'm talking about classes only related to business/accounting. I didn't choose to take courses unrelated to my major. They are legitimately required by the university in order to graduate. However I am almost done with my electives, so from here on out it's just classes related to my major.

While I am kinda complaining about my university pushing pure electives on me, it's mostly to drive home the point that it is an area where colleges can cut costs (so students won't have to take out as many loans).