I have a question for you. I know most of the UK members views because of a previous topic, but a few weeks ago in the papers here it showed about the UK soldier killed in a friendly fire incident by one of the US pilot team.
Now, in your opinion, what do you think should happen to them?
Could you provide a link for it please, so I can know for sure exactly what happened, I have heard about it, but I haven't actually read or heard the full story about it
Friendly fire is accidental.....while it's a tragedy....it's not intentional.LJS9502_basic
The contraversy surrounding it though is ground control confirmed that there were no friendly units in the area, despite the units on the ground identifying themselves as frendlies.
[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Friendly fire is accidental.....while it's a tragedy....it's not intentional.EJ902
The contraversy surrounding it though is ground control confirmed that there were no friendly units in the area, despite the units on the ground identifying themselves as frendlies.The British never identified themselves. No where does it say that.
[QUOTE="seph_cool"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Friendly fire is accidental.....while it's a tragedy....it's not intentional.LJS9502_basic
Yes, but if you read articles online you'll find out it wasn't totally friendly fire. Read articles. Post links.... I have
[QUOTE="EJ902"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Friendly fire is accidental.....while it's a tragedy....it's not intentional.kolobus11
The contraversy surrounding it though is ground control confirmed that there were no friendly units in the area, despite the units on the ground identifying themselves as frendlies.The British never identified themselves. No where does it say that. They had signs to show they were allies, plus why should they identify themselves when ground control is meant to be there for that.
[QUOTE="seph_cool"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Friendly fire is accidental.....while it's a tragedy....it's not intentional.LJS9502_basic
Yes, but if you read articles online you'll find out it wasn't totally friendly fire. Read articles. Post links....http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/6333853.stm No where does it say that the British identified themselves other than some Orange things on top of their vehicle. The Americans thought those where rocket launchers. The British wasn't supposed to be in that area anyway.
Ok.....the Marines were in contact with British ground units......why didn't they tell the Marines their location? Plus, no friendlies were supposed to be in the area.
[QUOTE="EJ902"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Friendly fire is accidental.....while it's a tragedy....it's not intentional.kolobus11
The contraversy surrounding it though is ground control confirmed that there were no friendly units in the area, despite the units on the ground identifying themselves as frendlies.The British never identified themselves. No where does it say that. By that I was referring to them having orange plating, which were markings of friendly units. I know that these could be faked by the enemy, but it still makes no sense why ground control were so certain they weren't friendly units.
[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="seph_cool"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Friendly fire is accidental.....while it's a tragedy....it's not intentional.seph_cool
Yes, but if you read articles online you'll find out it wasn't totally friendly fire. Read articles. Post links.... I have
[QUOTE="EJ902"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Friendly fire is accidental.....while it's a tragedy....it's not intentional.kolobus11
The contraversy surrounding it though is ground control confirmed that there were no friendly units in the area, despite the units on the ground identifying themselves as frendlies.The British never identified themselves. No where does it say that. They had signs to show they were allies, plus why should they identify themselves when ground control is meant to be there for that. They weren't supposed to be in the area. Did you not get that? There were supposed to be NO Coalition troops in that area. None. The Americans thought that the Orange allied indicators were rocket launchers.
[QUOTE="kolobus11"][QUOTE="EJ902"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Friendly fire is accidental.....while it's a tragedy....it's not intentional.EJ902
The contraversy surrounding it though is ground control confirmed that there were no friendly units in the area, despite the units on the ground identifying themselves as frendlies.The British never identified themselves. No where does it say that. Ny that I was referring to them having orange plating, which were markings of friendly units. I know that these could be faked by the enemy, but it still makes no sense why ground control were so certain they weren't friendly units.
Pilots do what they are told. If they are told to bomb a target they do. Coalition forces were not supposed to be there......that would have been checked out first.
Ok.....the Marines were in contact with British ground units......why didn't they tell the Marines their location? Plus, no friendlies were supposed to be in the area.LJS9502_basic
Exactly. It is the British ground units' fault as much as the Americans. The British weren't supposed to be in the area and failed to report to the ground control that they where.
[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Ok.....the Marines were in contact with British ground units......why didn't they tell the Marines their location? Plus, no friendlies were supposed to be in the area.kolobus11
Exactly. It is the British ground units' fault as much as the Americans. The British weren't supposed to be in the area and failed to report to the ground control that they where. IF the Americans are so innocent, then why was it hidden away by the US for at least 2 years, and why was it that a newspaper had to find it out, rather than the UK gov first
Damned glitchspot, I'm now the proud owner of a triple-post.
Pilots do what they are told. If they are told to bomb a target they do. Coalition forces were not supposed to be there......that would have been checked out first. LJS9502_basic
Interesting, that puts it in a different light. It makes more sense why they didn't have doubts. Pilots do do what they're told, and they were told the units were enemies, it was never the pilots' fault. THe ground units should have reported in, though it would have been sensible to at least do another quick check if they noticed the orange panels. Still, it was a mistake. A tragic mistake, but a mistake nonetheless, and since the ground units held some responsibility for it, I don't feel ground control should be reprimanded, only actions taken to make sure it doesn't happen again.
Damned glitchspot, I'm now the proud owner of a triple-post. [QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Pilots do what they are told. If they are told to bomb a target they do. Coalition forces were not supposed to be there......that would have been checked out first. EJ902
Interesting, that puts it in a different light. It makes more sense why they didn't have doubts. Pilots do do what they're told, and they were told the units were enemies, it was never the pilots' fault. THe ground units should have reported in, though it would have been sensible to at least do another quick check if they noticed the orange panels. Still, it was a mistake. A tragic mistake, but a mistake nonetheless, and since the ground units held some responsibility for it, I don't feel ground control should be reprimanded, only actions taken to make sure it doesn't happen again.
Which is what I said. It is a tragedy....but an accidental one.
I have a question for you. I know most of the UK members views because of a previous topic, but a few weeks ago in the papers here it showed about the UK soldier killed in a friendly fire incident by one of the US pilot team.
Now, in your opinion, what do you think should happen to them?
seph_cool
Same thing that usually happens...nothing. It's the nature of war...has been since forever. I saw the uncut footage and sadly the errors in judgement go with the fluid and immediate nature of war. Should there be better systems in place to prevent this? Sure...but no amount of check and measures will prevent it...just curb the losses to the lowest possible.
This has occured before with weapons systems that function like the A-10 and the Apache attack helicopters. You hear the way the men felt about the accident...and it'll stay with them long after the public debate over it all fades. It was not intentional...it was a sad series of events in the middle of a sad series of events. The U.S. should have acted better in disclosing all this to the families and british public as a whole...but again it's the nature of war...laying blame will not end it.
What has been pretty sad is the lack of coverage this story is getting in the states.
So if they were so sure, why did they, afterwards, say 'oh **** were gonna jail'? Im not saying it was an accident, I just think that a little more caution (from both sides) could have stopped this
[QUOTE="EJ902"] Damned glitchspot, I'm now the proud owner of a triple-post. [QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Pilots do what they are told. If they are told to bomb a target they do. Coalition forces were not supposed to be there......that would have been checked out first. LJS9502_basic
Interesting, that puts it in a different light. It makes more sense why they didn't have doubts. Pilots do do what they're told, and they were told the units were enemies, it was never the pilots' fault. THe ground units should have reported in, though it would have been sensible to at least do another quick check if they noticed the orange panels. Still, it was a mistake. A tragic mistake, but a mistake nonetheless, and since the ground units held some responsibility for it, I don't feel ground control should be reprimanded, only actions taken to make sure it doesn't happen again.
Which is what I said. It is a tragedy....but an accidental one.
I know, I was pointing out that it wasn't a compltete mishap, it could have been avoided (which was before I knew they failed to report in). In my last post I was clarifying that I wasn't trying to say "they screwed up, they should go to jail".
[QUOTE="seph_cool"]So if they were so sure, why did they, afterwards, say 'oh **** were gonna jail'? Im not saying it was an accident, I just think that a little more caution (from both sides) could have stopped thisWell, they thought they would be jailed for friendly fire. Even though they didnt know they were friendlies.
[QUOTE="kolobus11"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Ok.....the Marines were in contact with British ground units......why didn't they tell the Marines their location? Plus, no friendlies were supposed to be in the area.seph_cool
Exactly. It is the British ground units' fault as much as the Americans. The British weren't supposed to be in the area and failed to report to the ground control that they where. IF the Americans are so innocent, then why was it hidden away by the US for at least 2 years, and why was it that a newspaper had to find it out, rather than the UK gov first
It's not about guilt...its how the military works. Accidents happen and you move on as quick as possible to keep momentum, moral, and work flowing. It's an ongoing war...you can't stop it to do the kind of things you'd do in the civilian world. One has to realize that the military works VERY differently than the civilian world and such matters ARE delt with but rarely in an open and public manner.
The footage was not hidden away just never acknowledged as existing...the reasons? Far too varied from both sides of the issue...what good has this done in the public eye really? This is a military matter not a public matter unfortunately. It's an accident that occured like any would in such a dangerous and hostile enviornment...we like to think such things never happen but that do...and thankfully are a rarity.
Read up on the history of D-Day for example...the planning stages had a live fire testing run through that was an epic disaster...all in friendly areas and forces...all of that was hushed up and largely forgotton but to military historians. It was a tragic exercise...but a part of war. That's just the way war is...you don't just die from the enemy. EVERYTHING about waging war is a danger.
So if they were so sure, why did they, afterwards, say 'oh **** were gonna jail'? Im not saying it was an accident, I just think that a little more caution (from both sides) could have stopped thisseph_cool
Not sure what you're asking. Sure about what?
Their is no time for caution in war though...first to shoot is the first to live. You act in the moment and often on far less info than you'd like. You can see in the video they are given an OK to fire then seconds later are told to hold fire...unfortunately by that time the weapon systems had already engaged the target. ALL of it happens in seconds of time. Studies have shown giving a pilot TOO much info is also a danger as it further screws up their ability to make judgement...so they are given info needed to do a mission both with the equipment they use and the many other dangers associated to being a combat pilot. There is no magic balance of what amount of information is perfect...and as you can also see in the video the system to detect friendly forces is far from perfect...though it's getting better. Gulf War 1 had a much higher friendly fire casuality list.
[QUOTE="seph_cool"]So if they were so sure, why did they, afterwards, say 'oh **** were gonna jail'? Im not saying it was an accident, I just think that a little more caution (from both sides) could have stopped thiskolobus11
Well, they thought they would be jailed for friendly fire. Even though they didnt know they were friendlies.
As soon as they heard it was friendly they assumed the worst...that they'd be brought up on criminal charges.Who wouldn't think that?
If you see the video footage this ALL occurs in less than 10 min.
Obviously all Units should just wait until they take fire if they are not sure whom they are shooting at....better yet we should make sure to paint bullseyes on Coalition and US soldiers Unis to show that we are part of the same team.......I mean can we really place blame on these UK soldiers?.....they were jsut in an area where they shouldn't have been and didn't confirm their status....it's obvious that us crazy amercicans are over there jsut shooting at anything that moves....we should jsut put all of us in jail for warcrimes and be done with it......
Obviously all Units should just wait until they take fire if they are not sure whom they are shooting at....better yet we should make sure to paint bullseyes on Coalition and US soldiers Unis to show that we are part of the same team.......I mean can we really place blame on these UK soldiers?.....they were jsut in an area where they shouldn't have been and didn't confirm their status....it's obvious that us crazy amercicans are over there jsut shooting at anything that moves....we should jsut put all of us in jail for warcrimes and be done with it......Omni-Slash
I almost choked on that heavy dose of sarcasm :lol:
I saw the footage a couple of weeks ago on the news. Those pilots sounded like there stomachs dropped to the floor when they were told the target were friendlies. Its sad to hear this happened, but it was clearly an accident.
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