More unprofessional US police in action OT

Sounds like you US guys are already conditioned for a police state, "just do what the police say no matter what and you wont be harmed". Lmfao so glad i dont live in the US.

Well when strawman arguments and baseless assumptions don't work...

Anyways the situation is more like don't be a angry moron and start crap with a police officer for no reason...police state not so much. I'm also glad you don't live in the US btw.

If I called my family for bail and they told me to **** off I would probably hang myself too.

I thought I was going to puke when blands **** sister went on national tv talking about how great she is.

She specifically called you and your mom for help and you didn't give one shit about her but now that you have dollar signs in your eyes she is a fucking saint.

@Solaryellow: "She failed to signal which gave the police every LEGAL right to stop her."

Ok. I never said it was a unlawful stop.

"The police officer was well within legal authority (as affirmed by the SCOTUS) to order her to exit the vehicle."

And Sandra had the right to ask why, the officer has to explain why at least once. Its just a simple traffic violation why now does she have to get out the car. If an officer gives no lawful reason or any reason at all as to why he is telling you to get out the car, then why would you if you dont have to? Oh wait i know why otherwise a shit storm will hit you so bad, just give me my ticket and let me go or tell why you want me out the car dont just start threatening me and grabbing at me?

"Start advocating personal responsibility rather than using the predictable, and albeit, pathetic race card."

I did advocate personal responsibility, i said they were both in the wrong. Also in that post i was kinda replying to HoodHonky this post from him;

"Blacks in my smaller community are obsessed with Acting like gangster and are constantly getting in trouble, thethey still blame cops as if it's the police fault that they shot at someone"

And this comment from Davillian;

"Black people tend to be jerks more so."

So any racial things i said was in response to those comments. Seriously I'm not trying to play the race card but race is a big part of this whole issue. Its not like I'm the first person bringing race into the broader issue.

"People like you are exactly what the media is looking for because you believe whatever they tell you."

I'm not a big consumer of media i actually made a thread a while ago saying should we boycott mainstream news media. Soo wrong on all counts.

Personal responsibility would have been if the female didn't take a hissy fit over her failure to obey particular driving laws. The police officer was well within his legal authority for every action he took. She made the decision to escalate the encounter which looked to be on its way of being brief (as required by law).

The impression I get from you is that you feel this stop and subsequent actions are the result of the woman's color. That is wrong. What you still do not get is that he (cop) was acting lawfully by ordering her out of the car. whether she likes it or even you for that matter. He was rather cordial until she went into bitch mode while blaming him for her not knowing how to signal properly.

Watch that video. Really watch it. Cops are not my favorite people but that guy was nothing but nice when dealing with a belligerent individual and I'm certain her irritation, demeanor and lack of being calm roused his suspicions and concerns.

The problem is that the police force is made up of humans and their obviously fallable make up. What we need are a purely robotic police force uncapable of human emotion or error.

@Motokid6: @Solaryellow: @Motokid6: ok i submit maybe she should have complied and did whatever the cop said, for an easy life. I still feel the cop over reacted, so she didnt put out her cigarette that is not a crime, now he's mad and wants her to get out the car instead of just giving her ticket at letting her go, but whatever, it is what it is i guess. Police rule.

No im not trying to score points here.

Plus everyone is saying just do what the cops says and you wont be harmed, which is why i made that statement you quoted.

I know not all cops are bad and i know the media hypes up this whole issue, maybe its the media trying to start a war and not the police, i dont know whats going on man. I know alot of blacks in America are in gangs and are criminals so they have xonfrontations with police and if they dont comply then they are giving police the excuse to rough them up, someone needs to reach out to young black kids and show them that thug life is not the way, all these rappers out there are promoting the wrong message, they need to be telling young blacks to start behaving themselves and that they are bringing down their own race. They need to just comply with police because police are on some low tolerance shit.

Nope. They said they got the killer/terrorist/molester, but all this time they were pretending. So much for the happy ending.

This.

Speaking for myself (And I'm "black"), I've been pulled over numerous times and I have yet to get a ticket or experience an over aggressive cop. Just about all my stops went like this:

Cop pulls me over, walks up to my car, and ask for my I.D. He then ask me am I armed or have a firearm in the car which I reply "nope". I hand him my drivers license, he walks back to his squad car, I'm assuming he does a background check, he pulls up on the side of me, hands me my drivers license, and says "Alright Jeff. Take care man! Enjoy the rest of your day!". Done. That's it. Nothing more happens. And they were all "white" cops.

Even though I'm perfectly aware that I don't have to give him anything and can tell the cop to **** off since I know I haven't committed any traffic violation (only possible reason I see them pulling me over is because someone was shot or a hit & run occurred in the general area (which happens often in the part of Chicago I live in) and they're looking for suspects), I don't think being an asshole really benefits me. In fact, it would've turned a simple 3 minute traffic stops into something more, all because I felt like trying to show the cops up. I mean, if I know I have a clean record and not hiding anything in the car, I don't see a reason not to comply to a simple command the cops give and make the stop go as smooth as possible, not making him suspicious and want to bother me even more...

@Solaryellow: @Motokid6: @tocool340: hey guys i found this video, its a bit lovey dovey but it makes some good points, points i have actually made in my posts, i'm not expecting it to change your views but have a look tell me what you think.

Yeh lets see if you would still feel like that if it was your mother sister or aunty.

Anyway not putting out your cigarette is not illegal, being annoyed when being pulled over is not illegal. Everyones saying that Sandra acted like a fool she was running her mouth bla bla bla, she was not, she expressed her annoyance calmly she never swore(untill things had turned violent) or raised her voice or called the cop any names, but yet she deserved to be pulled out the car because she didn't put out her cigarette.

But i get it cops got you all so scared to exercise your legal rights that you would rather not exercise them for fear of reprisal, it shouldn't be like that but thats how it is in America and you have all accepted that, and its very disheartening.

But yeh i agree with you cops are not playing anymore so yes shut your mouths and just go along with whatever the officer says.

@ariabed: or Its more like we have common sense and we know that "exercising your rights " at a simple traffic stop just wastes everyone's time. 3 minute stop or 30 min stop? Exercise your rights when it matters, not during traffic stops that wouldv gotten you a warning.

Its always funny how someone outside of America pretends to know the most about it....

@hood_honky: ummm no 3min stop or shit storm is more like it.

The only time you guys wanna exercise your rights is when it comes to owning guns.

what gives you the impression that i think i know alot about america?

Exaggerating, but if it was always a shit storm, why would you do it over something so small? Every citizen has rights, taking advantaged of those rights just to be a bitch causes the shit storm.

Reasons go from talking about American rights to claiming America is a police state..

@hood_honky: never said America was a police state.

Reading comprehension FTL.

Nothing i have said is claiming i knownthe most about america.

@ariabed: "Sounds like you US guys are already conditioned for a police state,"

You are no doubt implying it here. Don't bullshit.

Everything you are saying is a basic claim to knowledge of a America, when in reality all you know is what a few YouTube videos showed you and what the media wants you to believe.

Reality is, this women brought it upon herself, she wasn't polite as you claim. There were no unlawful orders as You claim. And the coward killed herself. But black Americans are obsessed with the idea that white man is keeping them down to justify their own failures. Black Americans are claiming she was executed for being a "strong black woman" with no proof.

That's the reality in America, minorities taking advantage of a very few bad apples to push their own beliefs that they are being held down.

Isn't it strange that police in the UK, that deal with aggressive and drunk people all the time, doesn't even need to arm themselves? Watch any cop show from the UK and you'll see how cops should act and behave.

p.s I am not british.

The way one acts with police should be simple. If a cop gives you a LAWFUL order, you comply. An unlawful order does not need to be obeyed. Far too many people think being stopped on the side of the road turns them into Perry Mason when the truth be told, most wouldn't know their ass from a hole in their head when it comes to rights. Case in point, the chick in question. Someone's demeanor can be important when dealing with a stop because it could signify something is wrong. Asking about such seems normal. If he didn't ask if she was OK, the left would be criticizing him.

Do you have any idea how the law would support the cop if he felt the smoke was a threat and harmful? Any idea whatsoever? Most cops and most people get along perfectly fine. Not saying the people of this profession are infallible but many of the stops that make news do so because the person stopped acted inappropriately but the media ignores all of that because it doesn't fit the agenda. She went as far as blaming him for her inability to signal properly.

To many conflicting reports about this case. In general I know not all cops are bad, but your crazy if you think police corruption does not exist. And people should not be afraid to question authority, authority should be afraid to disregard the people.

@hood_honky: "Sounds like you US guys are already conditioned for a police state,"

That statement does not imply that I'm saying the US IS a police state, how old are you? fucking reading comprehension FTL

"Everything you are saying is a basic claim to knowledge of a America, when in reality all you know is what a few YouTube videos showed you and what the media wants you to believe."

Everything i have said is my opinion of the cops behavior and Sandras' behavior in the video.

"Reality is, this women brought it upon herself, she wasn't polite as you claim."

I never said she was polite, but she was calm up untill the cop tried to grab her out the car.

"There were no unlawful orders as You claim"

So put out your cigarette is a lawful order? Ok then dude. The fact is the officer got annoyed because the lady didnt follow his unlawful order to put out her cigarette, she exercised her rights and yes she paid the price for that.

And for all you guys saying oh she should have just done what the cop said, all you are doing is painting a even more dim view of US police than all these videos do. Because you are basically admitting that exercising your rights against a US cop well get you fucked up! As evidenced in the video and other videos. So yep keep promoting that view you are doing a better job than the media.

Now I'm getting the sense that many of you hold a dim view of black people so you have lost all empathy towards them evidenced in the fact that a lot of you believe she deserved what happened to her and the cop did nothing wrong at all and its very sad very sad indeed.

In England the police know how to conduct them selves profesionally with integrity and they respect peoples rights English police are Gentlemen and women, not like some of your US cops who have a point to prove. English police dont go around calling them selves the biggest gang like some American cops do, God bless England.

Blood will always be spilt on American streets your lands are cursed lol.

What don't you comprehend when someone is being lawfully detained and required to obey lawful orders/commands? You didn't watch the entire video as I'm certain you only watched the more "shocking" parts the media has aired. The cop was quite professional until she started up. Even then, he was following the law and the powers given to him by the law. The stop was nothing serious and a mere inconvenience but she made it into something bad. He didn't ask nor demand anything outrageous. I'm sure everyone on here has also asked someone to extinguish a cigarette when they are talking to you or interacting with you. Everyone should exercise their rights provided they know what they are but you do not have the right to disobey a lawful order.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/authoritarianism

Oh yes, we have plenty of authoritarians here in OT.

@Solaryellow: "What don't you comprehend when someone is being lawfully detained and required to obey lawful orders/commands?"

Is it against the law to smoke while talking to a police office while sitting in your car? If so show me some proof and i will shut the **** up.

Here's the thing though, why was the cop drawing attention to the fact she is annoyed, is that a crime being annoyed? Just give her ticket and let her go be annoyed. Nah he chose to go

"I AM A GOD, AND THOU SHALL NOT BE ANNOYED WITH MEEEEE!!!!"

He could have just delt with the minor traffic violation as that is what the stop was for, she didn't have any warrants she wasn't under suspicion of anything let her smoke her cigarette if she wants she has the right to do that, give her ticket and let her go.

Cops are not supposed to punish you for being annoyed.

The fact that all you guys think that cop handled that situation the best way possible is quite scary indeed.

@kaealy: this is the part where we pretend brit and murican policeing have things in common. The brits face an unarmed populace and they also don't have a tiny 13% segment of that population responcible for 50% of all homicides.

Well, on his first point regarding the cigarette, I'm not sure if he's trying to be willfully ignorant or not but it is well within a cops right to tell someone to put a cigarette out because:

A. It can be used to burn an officer (In which case, Bland DEFINITELY would have received more than a traffic citation)

B. Mask the smell of Marijuana

C. Possibility that they're holding the cigarette in their mouth to conceal drugs.

D. It can obstruct the officers view from seeing inside the car

etc. I can provide more reasons but I think those are good enough. And as far as I know, officers have pretty much always told folks to put out their cigarettes at stops. Not sure why this one is any different. Hell, the guy even said "please" twice for her to put it out in a calm respectable voice before it escalated. What more could he do?

I mean, what is so god damn difficult about following a SIMPLE request without being snarky? The way you're talking is like cops are robbing people of their dignity. They're going beyond just asking for a drivers license at a traffic stop and telling folks to step out their cars and do the macarena. I'm pretty sure cops want to get in, do their job without hassle, and get off like everyone else without dealing with melodrama which is why I prefer to make my life and theirs easier as possible so neither one of us end up ruining each others day...

Keep your emotions out of the discussion but maintain focus on the facts. This isn't about a woman merely smoking. She was a highly agitated individual who was smoking in close proximity to the cop. Certainly that was room for concern as any rational person would agree. You might not like it but he wasn't acting outside of the law. One's demeanor is usually something noticed by a cop and they tend to ask you how you are doing and such. The concept is quite common. This woman wasn't punished for being annoyed nor for smoking. Her behavior and ignorance of the law did he in no matter how much it burns you up.

The scary part here is you who clearly doesn't understand the law.

I like that the same people who roll over for the police are the same ones who claim the second amendment is for "government tyranny". so funny

People forget their wallets each and everyday. Doing so isn't some great conspiracy. He was asked if he had his license and answered (after a few attempts) that he didn't believe he had it on him.

The cop is at fault for a few reasons. One, he murdered someone and the video is quite clear. Second, both he and his fellow cop buddy LIED about what happened. Everyone seems to agree this guy was unbuckling his belt when the cop overacted and shot him. What you say in regards to the driver speeding off is speculation at best. Even if he was going to drive away, the circumstances didn't justify being shot in th ehead or anywhere.

Wanting to be treated with common decency isn't being a jerk.

True, a lot of crap about small government and restraining the power of the state but some are more than willing to meet the police on a prone position.

Some think that either you kowtow to police officers when interacting with them or is open season on your ass. **** that shit. Glad more and more citizens are becoming conscious about thew situation and recording with their cellphones.

Call me crazy, but whenever I get pulled over by the police for some traffic violation or questionable offense, I don't make threatening statements or actions toward them. Not sure why the **** I would do that. Sure it sucks to get pulled over, but I'd rather not risk my life just to be an asshole to some public servant. Some police officers are just jerks, others are probably just trying to make it home to their loved ones. They dont know if you're Mr. Rogers or someone who's going to pull a gun on them. I just act in a way that helps to defuse the situation. Why is that kowtowing? If I felt my rights were violated in someway, I'm filing a complaint. Isn't that just being logical and reasonable?

Moot point if ever i heard one.

@Solaryellow said:@ariabed said: @Solaryellow: when stopped for a minor traffic offence you do not have to exit your vehicle if asked by the officer, especially when no reason has been given as to why you must exit the vehicle. Cops may not like that but that is a persons right.

What are you talking about keep my emmotions out of the discussion, Who do you think you are?

Highly agitated lmfao!! Its funny the illusions you guys will conjure up to justify this cops actions, but in all seriousness its not funny at all.

You wanna see someone acting highly agitated;

That is a person acting HIGHLY agitated. All you guys are making fools of yourself defending this guy your not even willing to accept that he could have handled the situation in a better way. Yes Sandra could have handled the situation better but who is the professional person who is supposed to be doing a job professionally, she broke no laws other than a minor traffic viollation.

The scary part is you think that vop behaved in the best way possible for auch a minor situation.

@tocool340: "etc. I can provide more reasons but I think those are good enough. And as far as I know, officers have pretty much always told folks to put out their cigarettes at stops. Not sure why this one is any different. Hell, the guy even said "please" twice for her to put it out in a calm respectable voice before it escalated. What more could he do?"

How about just giving her her fucking ticket and letting her go?

You my friend are a bounty!

Anyway a member of the public is well within their right to refuse an order to put out their cigarette unless the officer states the reason why the cigarette must be put out, cops surely are not allowed to bark orders to people and expect them to be followed without any explanation.

Plus i dont want to hear YOUR reason's i want proof.

If a cop ask me to step out my car i could step out like a dick, or i could say why do i have to, if the cop gives a reason then fair enough i will comply, if he just continues to shout at me to get out the car with out an explanation, I'm gonna be afraid for my safety because he obviously has no reason to get me out the car other than he is angry and wants to teach me a lesson.

Members of public are well within their right not to exit their vehicle if not given a valid reason, i know that for a fact, cops may not like it but thats a persons right. In a more serious situation yes you do have to exit but not for a minor traffic stop, and not when no explanation is given.

If you want to challenge that i dont want your reason's i want proof.

@tocool340: @Solaryellow: @sonicare: have a read of this guys and lets discuss it.

link

Its what ive been saying all along just using my common sense i knew the cop was in the wrong, and you all especially that bounty tocool are ignorant.

@hood_honky: can you just check out the link above let me know what you think. Thanks :)

sadly its bad all over bro

the police in denmark is just as fucked up as the police in the states

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-UOqYbOrQA

i could link hundreds of videos

bottom line is FTP

@ariabed: @ariabed: basically from,a guy who wants police to look bad to push his projects agenda....

However if the officer thinks she is using th r cigarette to cover you a smell, he can ask her to put it out. If He believes she's using the ciggerette to purposely disrupt the process, he can ask her to put it out. (Especially if she's smoking it just to puff smoke towards the officer)

The only thing he done wrong was not give her a reason up front.

Telling her to get out is lawful, and as the agenda pusher in your link said, he only needed to give a reason.

There's a reason when someone out of state in texas starts acting a little funny, usually. Majority of illegals drugs are trafficked through Texas from Mexico. Coming all the way down from Chicago could be considered sketchy. Unfair to accuse of that tho, but they will approach that differently. She was showing some sort of signs within her car as he asked multiple times about it. Agitation,,nervousness, could seem the same.

All the officer has to do is explain why he asked her to put out the cigarette and everything thing else fls into place. Seeing how she had thc in her system, not hard to believe he gotten a wiff of weed.

@ariabed: http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/07/20/us/sandra-bland-arrest-death-videos-maps.html

You can argue that this agrees with you but you can also argue that the whole thing rest upon his reason to put out the cigarette. It also tells you that he could've arrested her from the get go.

There's also a video of her in jail proving all the conspiracies wrong. She talked all that shit about her lawyer was gonna get them, abd she doesn't even have one or even have a family member that's willing to spare 500 bucks..m

of course it is,

cuz golly, why would a demonstrably dangerous segment of the population that has no regard for life have any bearing on how jumpy and on the offense cops are?

gee wilikers, nothing could possibly make less sense.

lol. if you motherfuckers can't connect the dots here then you are fucked.

@Riverwolf007: @hood_honky: you know what **** all you dudes your all as stubborn as **** still defending this guy, I wonder if you would feel the same if it was a black cop doing that to a white woman.

Dont even know why i'm discussing this with you guys you are a bunch of gamers and we all know gamers are stubborn stuck up entitled hard to please little shits anyway. I hope a black person finds you all and lives up to the stereo type you all hold onto so dearly.

(so i wrote this a few days ago for a different topic but it fits in pretty nicely right here too so lets recap.)

y'know... solving racism seems like pretty tedious unrewarding work. and i thought, well screw those ot guys, they won't listen or care anyway. and you are going to look like darth jefferson davis saying a bunch of shit nobody wants to hear.

and i was like, well **** it, maybe i created a little video monster that's too ugly to pursue and i don't like you guys enough put in the effort for your goddamn glimmer of hope that you are not in any way going to like the meaning of...

but then i thought about my beloved great grandfather drunky o'spudraper (later americanized into henry au grautin) .

and that motherfucker never owned 2 fucking suits much less any people and once he had gotten away from the lynch mobs he had a gaggle of sharecropping/ditch digging/ factory sweatshop working descendants (because a few of the factories didn't burn everyone up) and all of them that made it past infant mortality were portrayed as criminal white woman raping subhuman apes and look folks, i won't even so much as have a fucking bottle of mrs. butterworths or a sack of uncle ben's rice in the goddamn house because of the moral quandary i have looking at the slave imagery in those soulful eyes on the packaging. so if it's all the same to everyone can i go to the fucking jazzfest downtown without a crowd of more than 10 guys clobbering me from behind then kicking out my teeth and crushing my eye sockets in?

(pictured here grammy and granpaw) (love youuu! see you at xmas!)

but no! apt story or no that's just selfish of me and wrong to bring up and i see that now.

well what does that leave? do i address being property of the state and bringing up for the thousandth time if some stressed out, burnt out, jumpy, underpaid, intellectually questionable, possibly psychotic or sociopathic, ex-jock in the middle of a divorce tells me to do jumping jacks on the yellow line then i'm doing motherfucking jumping jacks on the motherfucking yellow line because any other choice is a fucking dice roll that can easily end with me cuffed and bleeding out on the side of the road.

(other times he's just lovely though and works with charities and the handicapable)

you are free to test this out by telling the next cop that pulls you over to go **** himself, then when he orders you out of the car apologizing and going to him for a hug... lol, oh shit, this was supposed to be the hope talk not the reality check talk that nobody wants to admit talk because the horror of being a faceless cog completely under the control of an at least somewhat corrupt state, local and federal government talk is just getting me in deeper here.

ok, so lets just ignore that... so if i don't want to be selfish and talk about myself or paranoid and the property of the state thing is wrong and we need something more specific to shift all the blame for everything to other than my overwhelming paranoia plus.. y'know... reality, then how about those schools?

ok, now we are getting someplace.... i remember seeing a heartbreaking video of some poor child that had been bullied beyond any ability he had left to control himself anymore. he cried out in a way that i had never even heard a human do before. a heartrending mournful cry for help in the face of terror. a banshee wail of a thousand doomed souls trapped in hell. i have never seen anything so sad and desperate in my entire life.

this video was, of course, put on the internet so people could laugh at it and call him urkel.

and i don't know shit about this kid.... he could be a little asshole who deserves to get terrorized or he could be doing fine. he and his monster manual and 12 sided dice may have made it out of his situation intact and he may never think of this video that made his already shitty life even worse. i certainly hope he did, who knows how shit like this can turn out. what did this kid do to get some respect or protect himself if he ever did? you know they sometimes charge people with assault for schoolyard scuffles these days. what if he got sucked into the criminal justice system and gets the rest of education in a detention facility. what if he... shit wait.... ok... hope again this is about hope... right, i get carried away. there are too many variables and it's probably terrible and not hopeful at all and can't tell us anything so ok... **** that kid. obviously getting pounded on by a bunch guys for just a few years probably does nothing bad to a young psyche or causes any long term effects or patterns in dealing with the people around you.

but.... we are getting closer.

so what if i go the other way here for my real victim? what about de'andre whatshisname from fsu, all he did was defend himself from some drunk and be stupid enough to be underage in a bar. and we are all going to condemn him and ruin his life and suspend him and hit him over and over again while he is down over some overblown perceived injustice that he just had the bad luck to stumble into and now he has to be put in a medically induced coma until the brain swelling goes down and ...... godammit! now i'm back into the selfish mode and a motherfucking horrible monstrous misogynist on top of that for not thinking it's ok to let a woman beat on you.... **** me,...

wait.. maybe here is our victim. just some random kid that gets smashed because motherfuckers love to beef over stupid shit.

after all remember the emotionally touching speech that al sharpton had to say about this tragedy? he said.... ummmm... oh yeah, that bitch had nothing to say on that one....maybe that baby didn't have the required felony's for his life to matter or something idk how that works do they only matter 3 or 4 times a year and the other 6,000 times we are not supposed to talk about it? for the sake of brevity lets just call it a mystery why some matter and some don't.

ok... **** it. i give up. there is nothing i got for you. there is no hope, not even a glimmer. there is no reason for addressing violence in our communities or keeping your nose clean to adulthood or for not throwing a brick at me when you see me in line for a beer at riverfest and i guess i deserve it because i could not come up with any legal way to just get these racists away from us all.

unless....

boom motherfuckers. look at that shit. a black man with the ability to protect himself and end racism in its tracks. and the family says as long as it is investigated properly they understand.

and the motherfucking cvs didn't get burned down and nobody had to go to a candlelight vigil for an asshole.

so yes. i guess you are the fucking victim here because you are the one that gets banned from being able to protect yourself if you don't tow the line and play the game.

so remember, maybe there is some hope after all, keep your fucking nose clean into adulthood, suffer through the soul destroying indignity of being under the power of suspicious possibly unstable armed civil servants just like everyone else is and get that ccw because there is after all a reward for playing a game other than the knockout game.

and if shooting a fucking racist in the face and being patted on the back for it by the community is not enough to motivate you then nothing will.

@ariabed

I'm just someone who is not ignorant of the law. You are allowing your emotions to overcome any sort of rational approach as to what happened and The Supreme Court of The United States has ruled on these lawful orders you are clouding with emotion. I don't need to watch any attempt at misdirection which is what you are doing by posting other videos.

Please read Pennsylvania v Mimms and hopefully doing so will educate you so you don't continue sounding foolish.