Jesus the Messiah, part God.

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ShadowsDemon

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#51 ShadowsDemon
Member since 2012 • 10059 Posts
[QUOTE="FelipeInside"]I respect Atheists, like I respect every other belief, but may I ask a question. When you die, and if MY belief is true (I believe in a God), you will then meet him. What are you going to say? act? He won't be mad or anything that you didn't believe, but I just wonder what your reaction would be? (this question ISN'T to start a war debate about if God exists or not)

I guess you believe in heaven? I personally believe in resurrection myself...
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FelipeInside

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#52 FelipeInside
Member since 2003 • 28548 Posts
[QUOTE="ShadowsDemon"][QUOTE="FelipeInside"]I respect Atheists, like I respect every other belief, but may I ask a question. When you die, and if MY belief is true (I believe in a God), you will then meet him. What are you going to say? act? He won't be mad or anything that you didn't believe, but I just wonder what your reaction would be? (this question ISN'T to start a war debate about if God exists or not)

I guess you believe in heaven? I personally believe in resurrection myself...

I believe in BOTH. Everything in the Universe gets recycled/reborn, why should Humans be any different.
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FelipeInside

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#53 FelipeInside
Member since 2003 • 28548 Posts
[QUOTE="tocool340"][QUOTE="FelipeInside"]I respect Atheists, like I respect every other belief, but may I ask a question. When you die, and if MY belief is true (I believe in a God), you will then meet him. What are you going to say? act? He won't be mad or anything that you didn't believe, but I just wonder what your reaction would be? (this question ISN'T to start a war debate about if God exists or not)

I'd simply move along as if he's nothing more than a homeless bum on the street whom I might toss a coin at if I have it. I have nothing to say to deadbeat creator because if I did,. I'd have some truly disrespectful words for him. He is equivalent to a stranger on the street as far as I'm concern....

Let me put this point to you then. You buy or create ur own ant farm. You check in once in a while to see how they are doing, but then they destroy their own farm (the ants), would you really do something about it or just let them do what they want? There is a saying that "Man will help (or destroy) themselves", not blame the Creator.
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RationalAtheist

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#54 RationalAtheist
Member since 2007 • 4428 Posts

[QUOTE="GazaAli"]No offense, but the idea of Jesus being a God, part God, son of God, God in human form...etc is pretty absurd to me really. It simply does not make any sense whatsoever. Not to mention the "Jesus died for yours sins" thing.Philokalia

So long as you take into consideration the terms and words used to define these doctrines, be it trinity, hypostatic union and the like these concepts make reasonable and logical sense. The only problem is getting people to understand the terminology behind them, that is of personhood, essences and distinctions between the two and the same.

There is no reasonable sense ot be made of this. We've already discussed this ourselves. Logical inference could be used, but inference is a weak form of logical thought and could be used to reach most any conclusion.

You've already tried and failed to distinguish person-hoods from essences in your previous posts here, so why you keep banging this particular drum seems absurd to me, especially when you personally accept the "mystery" of it all.

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wis3boi

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#55 wis3boi
Member since 2005 • 32507 Posts

[QUOTE="Jonwh18"][QUOTE="FelipeInside"]I respect Atheists, like I respect every other belief, but may I ask a question. When you die, and if MY belief is true (I believe in a God), you will then meet him. What are you going to say? act? He won't be mad or anything that you didn't believe, but I just wonder what your reaction would be? (this question ISN'T to start a war debate about if God exists or not) FelipeInside

I would say why the hell didn't you prove you existed? All it would have taken was a talking pillar of fire or something once every couple years.

Fair enough. What if he responds "You weren't supposed to know yet" or "Mankind isn't ready for that knowledge yet"....?

Or even something better to think about, "I have proven I exist in some circunstances, you just didn't see it as that"?

then he is an idiot and not worthy of his title of god/not worty of worship.

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MAZ85

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#56 MAZ85
Member since 2007 • 1094 Posts
jesus : prophet ? yes ; messiah ? yes , part god ? no no
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MAZ85

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#57 MAZ85
Member since 2007 • 1094 Posts

Jesus even on the least divine and inspired reading of the New testament was clearly more than a man. We are told in the new testament

- Jesus created the heavens and the earth

- Jesus has all power and authority on heaven and on earth.

- Jesus will personally judge all people.

- Jesus shares the divine name with God. YHWH.

Philokalia
"in the beginning god created heavens and the earth" genesis 1:1 , jesus did not exist at that time , and god created jesus like he created heavens , earth , you ,me , obama , bin laden and everyone
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LordQuorthon

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#58 LordQuorthon
Member since 2008 • 5803 Posts

I keep telling you guys that Jesus is a level 8 Cleric with high charisma (he may or may not take a couple of Sorcerer levels in the future), but you don't seem to believe me.

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Zeviander

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#59 Zeviander
Member since 2011 • 9503 Posts
I keep telling you guys that Jesus is a level 8 Cleric with high charisma (he may or may not take a couple of Sorcerer levels in the future), but you don't seem to believe me.LordQuorthon
Pfft, level 8. I prefer my gods to be in the 30's, and multi-classed.
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LordQuorthon

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#60 LordQuorthon
Member since 2008 • 5803 Posts

Pfft, level 8. I prefer my gods to be in the 30's, and multi-classed.Zeviander

Agreed. I guess he really is just a prophet.

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ShadowMoses900

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#61 ShadowMoses900
Member since 2010 • 17081 Posts

Jesus was a wise man who was probably inspired by God, but he was not part God, he was not a prophet, and he was not messiah either. This is just my opinion anyway.

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LordQuorthon

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#62 LordQuorthon
Member since 2008 • 5803 Posts

Jesus was a wise man who was probably inspired by God, but he was not part God, he was not a prophet, and he was not messiah either. This is just my opinion anyway.

ShadowMoses900

Unlike all the other Jews'?

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ShadowMoses900

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#63 ShadowMoses900
Member since 2010 • 17081 Posts

[QUOTE="Jonwh18"][QUOTE="FelipeInside"]I respect Atheists, like I respect every other belief, but may I ask a question. When you die, and if MY belief is true (I believe in a God), you will then meet him. What are you going to say? act? He won't be mad or anything that you didn't believe, but I just wonder what your reaction would be? (this question ISN'T to start a war debate about if God exists or not) FelipeInside

I would say why the hell didn't you prove you existed? All it would have taken was a talking pillar of fire or something once every couple years.

Fair enough. What if he responds "You weren't supposed to know yet" or "Mankind isn't ready for that knowledge yet"....?

Or even something better to think about, "I have proven I exist in some circunstances, you just didn't see it as that"?

I think God would say "it's about faith".

See if God directly revealed himself, like came to Earth and said "I exist" and everyone knew it, there would be no more faith. People would only believe in God because they know he exists, not because they have faith or truly love Him. They would only do good acts because they know God is real, they would not be doing it to be truly good.

With faith, people have a choice, God can tell who truly loves Him and chooses to be truly good over those who are not. But someday God willl resurrect all men and everyone will know the truth. And each and every person will be judged.

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ShadowMoses900

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#64 ShadowMoses900
Member since 2010 • 17081 Posts

[QUOTE="ShadowMoses900"]

Jesus was a wise man who was probably inspired by God, but he was not part God, he was not a prophet, and he was not messiah either. This is just my opinion anyway.

LordQuorthon

Unlike all the other Jews'?

Most Jews do share this opinion, however there is a small number of Jews who believe Jesus was the Messiah. I met a few of them at my university, they have Jewish Heritage, they speak Hebrew and practice Jewish traditions and holidays, they just believe that Christ was the Messiah.

It is very confusing as I never met these people before, but they identify as Jews and to me I see them as Members of The Tribe as they seem to be Jewish in everything else. Also there are many atheist and secular Jews, so not all Jews agree on things.

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LordQuorthon

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#65 LordQuorthon
Member since 2008 • 5803 Posts

It is very confusing as I never met these people before, but they identify as Jews and to me I see them as Members of The Tribe as they seem to be Jewish in everything else. Also there are many atheist and secular Jews, so not all Jews agree on things.

ShadowMoses900

brony-spring-youdontsay.jpg

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tocool340

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#66 tocool340
Member since 2004 • 21647 Posts
[QUOTE="FelipeInside"][QUOTE="tocool340"][QUOTE="FelipeInside"]I respect Atheists, like I respect every other belief, but may I ask a question. When you die, and if MY belief is true (I believe in a God), you will then meet him. What are you going to say? act? He won't be mad or anything that you didn't believe, but I just wonder what your reaction would be? (this question ISN'T to start a war debate about if God exists or not)

I'd simply move along as if he's nothing more than a homeless bum on the street whom I might toss a coin at if I have it. I have nothing to say to deadbeat creator because if I did,. I'd have some truly disrespectful words for him. He is equivalent to a stranger on the street as far as I'm concern....

Let me put this point to you then. You buy or create ur own ant farm. You check in once in a while to see how they are doing, but then they destroy their own farm (the ants), would you really do something about it or just let them do what they want? There is a saying that "Man will help (or destroy) themselves", not blame the Creator.

I do something about it since I invested time and money into them. Besides, those ant most likely don't regard me as a being of unimaginable power or believe I'm there to save them.... I have no problem with that saying, however, considering that "creator" supposedly made his presence known throughout the stone ages but conveniently disappears as humans begin to evolve on a mental and technological level, I'd say that phrase is a moot point since he supposedly did "help" people once upon a time. And due to the convenience of his disappearance, I also question rather he even existed or not... The horrors, or should I say the truth that I've seen around the internet boggles the mind on how God could suddenly without warnings, turn a blind eye to the atrocities of this world. Nothing like having drug cartels rape women drag their bodies to the middle of the desert, execute them, and leave them for dead. Nothing like hearing people say God saved them from a tragic accident, and yet, abandon those TRULY in dire situation where luck is practically virtually non existent.... So, like I said, even if I died and he exists, he's still no more than a deadbeat creator. A worthless dictator. A villainous king who uses the power of his presence to rule over all since no matter what he does, he can't be seen as any thing but righteous and good. And if I find out he really had something to do with the survival of some of the people claiming he saved them from something that really didn't require his help, I may just rebel...
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Philokalia

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#67 Philokalia
Member since 2012 • 2910 Posts

There is no reasonable sense ot be made of this. We've already discussed this ourselves. Logical inference could be used, but inference is a weak form of logical thought and could be used to reach most any conclusion.

You've already tried and failed to distinguish person-hoods from essences in your previous posts here, so why you keep banging this particular drum seems absurd to me, especially when you personally accept the "mystery" of it all.

RationalAtheist

Actually we only half discussed these and all you showed is that you can't comprehend basic terms. You don't even know what a person is, perhaps because you insert a naturalistic understanding that there is no such thing as the person, the psyche, the whatever but that you didn't even give consideration to it shows that you just don't want to understand it. Like the muslims. Besides you haven't demonstrated anything illogical about the trinity, because you don't want to understand it.

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wis3boi

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#68 wis3boi
Member since 2005 • 32507 Posts

[QUOTE="RationalAtheist"]

There is no reasonable sense ot be made of this. We've already discussed this ourselves. Logical inference could be used, but inference is a weak form of logical thought and could be used to reach most any conclusion.

You've already tried and failed to distinguish person-hoods from essences in your previous posts here, so why you keep banging this particular drum seems absurd to me, especially when you personally accept the "mystery" of it all.

Philokalia

Actually we only half discussed these and all you showed is that you can't comprehend basic terms. You don't even know what a person is, perhaps because you insert a naturalistic understanding that there is no such thing as the person, the psyche, the whatever but that you didn't even give consideration to it shows that you just don't want to understand it. Like the muslims. Besides you haven't demonstrated anything illogical about the trinity, because you don't want to understand it.

It's sad that you actually believe what you type

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Philokalia

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#69 Philokalia
Member since 2012 • 2910 Posts

[QUOTE="Philokalia"]

Jesus even on the least divine and inspired reading of the New testament was clearly more than a man. We are told in the new testament

- Jesus created the heavens and the earth

- Jesus has all power and authority on heaven and on earth.

- Jesus will personally judge all people.

- Jesus shares the divine name with God. YHWH.

MAZ85

"in the beginning god created heavens and the earth" genesis 1:1 , jesus did not exist at that time , and god created jesus like he created heavens , earth , you ,me , obama , bin laden and everyone

In the begining was the word and the word was with God and the was God (John 1.1)That allusion is very clear to anyone familiar with genesis. That is John is directly bringing us back to that moment to establish that JEsus Christ is God, the Logos of the father who is God also. The New testament is not the muslim's friend here. Neither for that matter is the Old testament which indicates a plurality within the first chapter of the book. Let us create man in our image, Says God.

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Philokalia

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#70 Philokalia
Member since 2012 • 2910 Posts

[QUOTE="wis3boi"

It's sad that you actually believe what you type

That you blatently without reason dismiss people is what I truely find sad. A lack of thought or perhaps just laziness? I do not know. But tell me what is essentially illogical or contradictory within the trinity, within the hypostatic union.

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tenaka2

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#71 tenaka2
Member since 2004 • 17958 Posts

[QUOTE="RationalAtheist"]

There is no reasonable sense ot be made of this. We've already discussed this ourselves. Logical inference could be used, but inference is a weak form of logical thought and could be used to reach most any conclusion.

You've already tried and failed to distinguish person-hoods from essences in your previous posts here, so why you keep banging this particular drum seems absurd to me, especially when you personally accept the "mystery" of it all.

Philokalia

Actually we only half discussed these and all you showed is that you can't comprehend basic terms. You don't even know what a person is, perhaps because you insert a naturalistic understanding that there is no such thing as the person, the psyche, the whatever but that you didn't even give consideration to it shows that you just don't want to understand it. Like the muslims. Besides you haven't demonstrated anything illogical about the trinity, because you don't want to understand it.

There is no getting around that the trinity is never mentioned in the bible, if it was central to the religion and god and the bible is gods word it would be very obvious and explicit.

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wis3boi

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#72 wis3boi
Member since 2005 • 32507 Posts

[QUOTE="wis3boi"

It's sad that you actually believe what you type

Philokalia

That you blatently without reason dismiss people is what I truely find sad. A lack of thought or perhaps just laziness? I do not know. But tell me what is essentially illogical or contradictory within the trinity, within the hypostatic union.

if you had any logic, reasoning, critical thinking, evidence, and none of it required blind faith, I wouldn't dismiss it. Funny how you use terms incorrectly in a last ditch effort to save your already terrible arguments

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chaoscougar1

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#73 chaoscougar1
Member since 2005 • 37603 Posts

lol at the premise

"How can you believe that he was only a prophet?"

As if that's a less reasonable stance to take

-Sun_Tzu-
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chaoscougar1

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#74 chaoscougar1
Member since 2005 • 37603 Posts

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]

lol at the premise

"How can you believe that he wasonlya prophet?"

As if that's a less reasonable stance to take

champion837

Wtf? Your belief has nothing to do with this topic.

My head just imploded from the...stupidity/insanity (I am sure there is a more concise word for it) of that comment

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wis3boi

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#75 wis3boi
Member since 2005 • 32507 Posts

[QUOTE="champion837"][QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]

lol at the premise

"How can you believe that he wasonlya prophet?"

As if that's a less reasonable stance to take

chaoscougar1

Wtf? Your belief has nothing to do with this topic.

My head just imploded from the...stupidity/insanity (I am sure there is a more concise word for it) of that comment

pretty sure he's just a troll

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Philokalia

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#76 Philokalia
Member since 2012 • 2910 Posts

There is no getting around that the trinity is never mentioned in the bible, if it was central to the religion and god and the bible is gods word it would be very obvious and explicit.

tenaka2

Many things aren't mentioned in the bible, but my faith is not predicated on solely the scripture Tenaka. So I'm not sure what this criticism amounts to. Perhaps the sola scripturist might have a problem but not me. And I think its a mistake to suggest that the trinity as a concept, along with many other concepts which are not given clear words wtihin the scripture is not there. We have to read the inference of certain verses Tenaka. When I see Christ as described as the creator of all, the light which guides to truth, the judge of all creation, all power and authority resting within him, the father saying to the son "your throne o God is forever," the distinction between the father and the son and the spirit as persons within the scripture, that the word took on flesh and dwelt among us. I can only but read the trinity and the incarnation and the diety of Christ into this.

But the standard you raise tenaka is but a subjective standard and one that most people would reject. Consider that throughout Christianity most have read the trinity and found teh trinity within the text of the scripture, they have found more than obvious. Consider that the scripture itself says that some will read it and distort. All of these things have to be taken into consideration. You cannot expect to find alot things in the bible clearly stated, you have to read from the inference within the text.

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MAZ85

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#77 MAZ85
Member since 2007 • 1094 Posts

[QUOTE="MAZ85"][QUOTE="Philokalia"]

Jesus even on the least divine and inspired reading of the New testament was clearly more than a man. We are told in the new testament

- Jesus created the heavens and the earth

- Jesus has all power and authority on heaven and on earth.

- Jesus will personally judge all people.

- Jesus shares the divine name with God. YHWH.

Philokalia

"in the beginning god created heavens and the earth" genesis 1:1 , jesus did not exist at that time , and god created jesus like he created heavens , earth , you ,me , obama , bin laden and everyone

I the Old testament which indicates a plurality within the first chapter of the book. Let us create man in our image, Says God.

I take that as a plural of respect , like when a king speaks and uses we instead of I
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Philokalia

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#78 Philokalia
Member since 2012 • 2910 Posts

if you had any logic, reasoning, critical thinking, evidence, and none of it required blind faith, I wouldn't dismiss it. Funny how you use terms incorrectly in a last ditch effort to save your already terrible arguments

wis3boi

Since when was my faith blind? Since when Have I lacked a reason? Since when have you demonstrated that the trinity is illogical or flawed?

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norm41x

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#79 norm41x
Member since 2011 • 813 Posts
[QUOTE="FelipeInside"]

[QUOTE="Jonwh18"] I would say why the hell didn't you prove you existed? All it would have taken was a talking pillar of fire or something once every couple years. Jonwh18

Fair enough. What if he responds "You weren't supposed to know yet" or "Mankind isn't ready for that knowledge yet"....?

Or even something better to think about, "I have proven I exist in some circunstances, you just didn't see it as that"?

I would say, you should have made it painfully obvious, To the second question. To the first I would say well then what was the point? I'd probably ask him why the world is the crap hole it is.

Why the world is the crap hole that it is is entirely our fault actually. "God" doesn't even fit in the equation. As smart as we are (Mankind), we are pretty stupid too. Everything that is bad in the world is mostly on our hands. Natural Disasters is just nature being nature. War, Crime, and all the other bullsh*t though? That's entirely on us.
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tenaka2

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#80 tenaka2
Member since 2004 • 17958 Posts

[QUOTE="tenaka2"]

There is no getting around that the trinity is never mentioned in the bible, if it was central to the religion and god and the bible is gods word it would be very obvious and explicit.

Philokalia

Many things aren't mentioned in the bible, but my faith is not predicated on solely the scripture Tenaka.

That is good to hear, I am glad your faith has grown stronger.

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MAZ85

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#81 MAZ85
Member since 2007 • 1094 Posts

[QUOTE="wis3boi"]

if you had any logic, reasoning, critical thinking, evidence, and none of it required blind faith, I wouldn't dismiss it. Funny how you use terms incorrectly in a last ditch effort to save your already terrible arguments

Philokalia

Since when was my faith blind? Since when Have I lacked a reason? Since when have you demonstrated that the trinity is illogical or flawed?

I can't believe in trinity , just like a country can have only one president , this world can only have one god , this has been made clear in the quran :"Had there been within the heavens and earth gods besides Allah , they both would have been ruined. So exalted is Allah , Lord of the Throne, above what they describe." quran 20:22 so let's suppose the trinity is true , and there are 3 gods , the father , jesus and the holy ghost , and let's say as a rediculous example that the father decides an earthquake hits some place right now , and jesus doesn't want that to happen , then who would win ? there is only one god and his word is the word
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-Sun_Tzu-

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#82 -Sun_Tzu-
Member since 2007 • 17384 Posts

[QUOTE="wis3boi"]

if you had any logic, reasoning, critical thinking, evidence, and none of it required blind faith, I wouldn't dismiss it. Funny how you use terms incorrectly in a last ditch effort to save your already terrible arguments

Philokalia

Since when was my faith blind? Since when Have I lacked a reason? Since when have you demonstrated that the trinity is illogical or flawed?

All that is necessary to demonstrate that the trinity is illogical is simple algebra.
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Philokalia

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#83 Philokalia
Member since 2012 • 2910 Posts

That is good to hear, I am glad your faith has grown stronger.

tenaka2

Its good to know hte only reason why you are so bad at alking about these things is that you only read a sentence of your opponent. Tenaka the fact that you ignore all the references (which if you so desire I will provide in their biblical form) which gave, not make you think that I have a reason for beleiving the bible teaches the trinity? Or will you merely insist I am making up the trinity and believing it despite the biblical evidence? This is just plain silly tenaka, I mean its not as bad as claiming pagans celebrated a day named easter before the advent of Christ based on a day revolving around the jewish calander, but its still pretty bad.

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RationalAtheist

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#84 RationalAtheist
Member since 2007 • 4428 Posts

Actually we only half discussed these and all you showed is that you can't comprehend basic terms. You don't even know what a person is, perhaps because you insert a naturalistic understanding that there is no such thing as the person, the psyche, the whatever but that you didn't even give consideration to it shows that you just don't want to understand it. Like the muslims. Besides you haven't demonstrated anything illogical about the trinity, because you don't want to understand it.

Philokalia

My impression was that you were unable to define your basic terms and resorted to mystery, then stopped posting in the thread when you vague explainations were reasonably questioned.

Your current attempt is in defining a person as a "whatever", but this only shows your inability to explain what you said was simple at the time.You're more like "the Muslims" than I am, since you believe in oneAbrahamic interpretation of God and rely on the word of prophets and doctrine over rationalism. I don't.

I do have an understanding of the trinity in the reasoning and some of the textual biblical justification for it. That does not make it a logical or rational proposition, but only a necessity to uphold faith in Jesus as a God figure.

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Philokalia

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#85 Philokalia
Member since 2012 • 2910 Posts

I can't believe in trinity , just like a country can have only one president , this world can only have one god , this has been made clear in the quran :"Had there been within the heavens and earth gods besides Allah , they both would have been ruined. So exalted is Allah , Lord of the Throne, above what they describe." quran 20:22 so let's suppose the trinity is true , and there are 3 gods , the father , jesus and the holy ghost , and let's say as a rediculous example that the father decides an earthquake hits some place right now , and jesus doesn't want that to happen , then who would win ? there is only one god and his word is the word MAZ85

Well theres the problem, you don't understand the trinity in hte first place. Clearly you think of the trinity as some tritheism, like that of the mormons, three seperate gods, each with their own unique substance and unique person of which they share neither between the other. This isn't the trinity. But I can't blame you as you are forced to believe in the quran which cannot even understand the Christian position to begin with, only strawman the Christian position. You look at the number three and thats all you see, but what entails in that number? Only the persons entail within that number. Do you understand what a person is? Muslims I find often have no concept of personhood or substance. Do you understand that Allah is a person? That Allah has a substance which is composed of many properties? Once you understand this, then you will truely grasp the trinity. Otherwise talking to you is nothing but a waste, till you can understand it.

Although it must be said the members of the trinity exist as the perfect family, they neither contend with each other each others will is their own.

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Philokalia

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#86 Philokalia
Member since 2012 • 2910 Posts

My impression was that you were unable to define your basic terms and resorted to mystery, then stopped posting in the thread when you vague explainations were reasonably questioned.

Your current attempt is in defining a person as a "whatever", but this only shows your inability to explain what you said was simple at the time.You're more like "the Muslims" than I am, since you believe in oneAbrahamic interpretation of God and rely on the word of prophets and doctrine over rationalism. I don't.

I do have an understanding of the trinity in the reasoning and some of the textual biblical justification for it. That does not make it a logical or rational proposition, but only a necessity to uphold faith in Jesus as a God figure.

RationalAtheist

I defined them for you Rational, you basically just said you didn't understand or comprehend them. and I went to other atheists and asked them if they understood these terms, one who was previously a calvanist did understand these terms and saw no illogic in the proposition only that they thought God didn't exist in such a manner. These were not vague explanations but specific definitions. Do you not understand what a person is rational? Lets discuss this one at time. Do you at least comprehend, even if you do not accept it (which I suspect you do not) the idea of personhood?

And I didn't use the word "whatever" only to describe a person, if I did use that word it was in thte context of other words which indicated personality, will, thought, comprehension and other characteristics which are clearly indicative of what we typically know as a person. And no you have no understanding of the trinity Rational, when you cannot even understand the basic terminology of which defines it, you show no understanding. And if you show understanding, demosntrate the illogic behind the proposition of the trinity. Dont just claim it.

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Philokalia

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#87 Philokalia
Member since 2012 • 2910 Posts

All that is necessary to demonstrate that the trinity is illogical is simple algebra. -Sun_Tzu-

Then do it.

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MAZ85

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#88 MAZ85
Member since 2007 • 1094 Posts

[QUOTE="MAZ85"] I can't believe in trinity , just like a country can have only one president , this world can only have one god , this has been made clear in the quran :"Had there been within the heavens and earth gods besides Allah , they both would have been ruined. So exalted is Allah , Lord of the Throne, above what they describe." quran 20:22 so let's suppose the trinity is true , and there are 3 gods , the father , jesus and the holy ghost , and let's say as a rediculous example that the father decides an earthquake hits some place right now , and jesus doesn't want that to happen , then who would win ? there is only one god and his word is the word Philokalia

Well theres the problem, you don't understand the trinity in hte first place. Clearly you think of the trinity as some tritheism, like that of the mormons, three seperate gods, each with their own unique substance and unique person of which they share neither between the other. This isn't the trinity. But I can't blame you as you are forced to believe in the quran which cannot even understand the Christian position to begin with, only strawman the Christian position. You look at the number three and thats all you see, but what entails in that number? Only the persons entail within that number. Do you understand what a person is? Muslims I find often have no concept of personhood or substance. Do you understand that Allah is a person? That Allah has a substance which is composed of many properties? Once you understand this, then you will truely grasp the trinity. Otherwise talking to you is nothing but a waste, till you can understand it.

Although it must be said the members of the trinity exist as the perfect family, they neither contend with each other each others will is their own.

God (ALLAH) Is not a person , is not human , is not a substance , is not a material , he is eternal , time has no effect on god for he is the creator of it , god does not get tired , god can not be described , he is all knowing all seeing all hearing , for god nothing is a secret , god even knows what you say to yourself , god knows what you will do before you even do it , God is God and that's it
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wis3boi

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#89 wis3boi
Member since 2005 • 32507 Posts

[QUOTE="wis3boi"]

if you had any logic, reasoning, critical thinking, evidence, and none of it required blind faith, I wouldn't dismiss it. Funny how you use terms incorrectly in a last ditch effort to save your already terrible arguments

Philokalia

Since when was my faith blind? Since when Have I lacked a reason? Since when have you demonstrated that the trinity is illogical or flawed?

the very definition of faith is blind acceptance, but obviously you dance around that

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RationalAtheist

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#90 RationalAtheist
Member since 2007 • 4428 Posts

I defined them for you Rational, you basically just said you didn't understand or comprehend them. and I went to other atheists and asked them if they understood these terms, one who was previously a calvanist did understand these terms and saw no illogic in the proposition only that they thought God didn't exist in such a manner. These were not vague explanations but specific definitions. Do you not understand what a person is rational? Lets discuss this one at time. Do you at least comprehend, even if you do not accept it (which I suspect you do not) the idea of personhood?

And I didn't use the word "whatever" only to describe a person, if I did use that word it was in thte context of other words which indicated personality, will, thought, comprehension and other characteristics which are clearly indicative of what we typically know as a person. And no you have no understanding of the trinity Rational, when you cannot even understand the basic terminology of which defines it, you show no understanding. And if you show understanding, demosntrate the illogic behind the proposition of the trinity. Dont just claim it.

Philokalia

That isn't what happened. You used faulty terminology and still continue to do so. Who are these other atheists? I could say I spoke to other atheists too and they found your propositions entirely faulty. Why not eplain for yourself, or are you happier in the company of an imagined majority?

If the ideas are so logical, why did you disappear last time you were asked to explain them?

I have no idea what the concept of a "personhood" entails. Is it the same as a person? I know that one person can not be another person. Why switch between those words? Why not be precise with your terms? To me, that sounds like waffling and an excuse for vagueness.

It is up to you to demonstrate your own understanding of the trinity. I know why you have to believe in it: Christianity would not be the same without it. Jesus would not have the same impact. This is regardless of what the bible says (or not) on the topic.

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RationalAtheist

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#91 RationalAtheist
Member since 2007 • 4428 Posts

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]All that is necessary to demonstrate that the trinity is illogical is simple algebra. Philokalia

Then do it.

1<>3

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Philokalia

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#92 Philokalia
Member since 2012 • 2910 Posts

God (ALLAH) Is not a person , is not human , is not a substance , is not a material , he is eternal , time has no effect on god for he is the creator of it , god does not get tired , god can not be described , he is all knowing all seeing all hearing , for god nothing is a secret , god even knows what you say to yourself , god knows what you will do before you even do it , God is God and that's itMAZ85

Therein lies the problem, the way in which these terms are used you do not understand. Person, lets define disregaurding physicality is but the will, consciousness, the mind, the intelligence of an individual. In this way allah of the qurna is clearly seen to be a person as he is clearly seen to have thought, intelligence (in the sense he can at least string concepts and ideas together like we can), consciosness and the like. This does not suggest he is human or that he has a human mind, but that he is in the sense we are, a being which has thought and comprehension and logic and the like, things we typically ascribe to persons.

Substance, again is not used in the way to describe only the physical. we can use other words which might seem more transcendant however, think of essence. But these words only are used to describe the existent entity and what composes that entity. Clearly in islam, Allah is an entity, he exists, he is made up of something rather than nothing. This something is more than mere creation, but it is still something, it is substance, it is essence. So in this way Allah has substance or essence.

So we see under these specific definitions that allah has both and fits into them. Do you now dissagree?

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Philokalia

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#93 Philokalia
Member since 2012 • 2910 Posts

That isn't what happened. You used faulty terminology and still continue to do so. Who are these other atheists? I could say I spoke to other atheists too and they found your propositions entirely faulty. Why not eplain for yourself, or are you happier in the company of an imagined majority?

If the ideas are so logical, why did you disappear last time you were asked to explain them?

I have no idea what the concept of a "personhood" entails. Is it the same as a person? I know that one person can not be another person. Why switch between those words? Why not be precise with your terms? To me, that sounds like waffling and an excuse for vagueness.

It is up to you to demonstrate your own understanding of the trinity. I know why you have to believe in it: Christianity would not be the same without it. Jesus would not have the same impact. This is regardless of what the bible says (or not) on the topic.

RationalAtheist

It is what happned. You blatantly just dismissed the definitions, that they made no sense to you, that they were nonsense. And do you have a job and a life RA? I imagine you do. I hope you don't spend all day on off topic, as I know these discussions can ontinue literally forever until the moderator closes the topic so I tend to limit myself to the time I spend on off topic. Whether you believe me or not I don't care.

Now RA, can you comprehend the idea of a mind? That is a mind seperate from the body? From physicality? Remember you don't have to accept this as existing, only comprhend it. I can comprehend the naturalist idea that the mind really doesn't exist, but that it is only a figment we have made for ourselves, that the mind essentially is our brain and the like. And I have been precise in my terms, you simply didn't understand them because I think you will not allow for an idea you do not agree with to make sense. So lets start from the milk and work up to the meat shall we? Can you at least comprehend a mind seperate from the body? IF you cannot then we will never agree and its no wonder you consider the trinity illogical because you have that premise in mind. Although I would note, that this doesn't show in of itself the tirnity is illogical, only that you think a mind must be limited to the human experience.

And you are the one who claimed the tirnity as illogical, so demonstrate it as illogical. I have yet to see a comprehensive case that the trinity makes no snese. Especially when those who say it cannot even understand the words and types behind it.

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-Sun_Tzu-

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#94 -Sun_Tzu-
Member since 2007 • 17384 Posts

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]All that is necessary to demonstrate that the trinity is illogical is simple algebra. Philokalia

Then do it.

I feel like this is going to be an exercise in futility because of your constant inability to actually critically engage your own beliefs, but it's really not that complicated to outline.

Have X equal God the father. God the father is an immaterial entity that exists outside of the universe (whatever that might be). Y is Jesus of Nazareth, a 30 year old Jewish carpenter who traveled around Judea 2000 years ago. And Z is the holy spirit, some other immaterial entity that is ontologically distinct from God the father.

This all breaks down once you claim that X=Y=Z, because they clearly don't equal each other, no matter how much theological BS you smear over it. God cannot be both this formless supernatural being yet simultaneously be a 30 year old Jew in Jerusalem 2000 years ago, oh and by the way he's his own father. That's in clear violation with the law of identity.

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tenaka2

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#95 tenaka2
Member since 2004 • 17958 Posts

[QUOTE="tenaka2"]

That is good to hear, I am glad your faith has grown stronger.

Philokalia

Will you merely insist I am making up the trinity and believing it despite the biblical evidence?

Well yes, there is no biblical evidence of the trinity but i admire that despite all that you still believe in it. Faith is something that I can admire in others, the ability to ignore reality and focus on a goal is admirable, I would like the ability to tweak my mental state to anything i desire.

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Philokalia

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#96 Philokalia
Member since 2012 • 2910 Posts

I feel like this is going to be an exercise in futility because of your constant inability to actually critically engage your own beliefs, but it's really not that complicated to outline.

Have X equal God the father. God the father is an immaterial entity that exists outside of the universe (whatever that might be). Y is Jesus of Nazareth, a 30 year old Jewish carpenter who traveled around Judea 2000 years ago. And Z is the holy spirit, some other immaterial entity that is ontologically distinct from God the father.

This all breaks down once you claim that X=Y=Z, because they clearly don't equal each other, no matter how much theological BS you smear over it. God cannot be both this formless supernatural being yet simultaneously be a 30 year old Jew in Jerusalem 2000 years ago, oh and by the way he's his own father. That's in clear violation with the law of identity.

-Sun_Tzu-

See you actually strawmanned the trinity. Jesus did not begin to exist. He became incarnate within time. Thus your entire idea is faulty. The persons have existed together from all eternity.And I agree, X Y and Z are not each other, they are their own persons. This is the point in the first place. We Christians are not modalists. We do nto believe the father to be the son to be the spirit and vice versa. So your so called proof of algebra against the trinity is nothing more than actually clarifiying the trinity, the distinction between the persons involved. That and you don't understand the incarnation, Jesus did not begin to exist and only existed for thirty years. This seems like placing your own naturalism onto the theology involved to make it illogical. And granted if your naturalism is true then the trinity doesn't exist. So yuo don't like all others here even understand the difference between the trinity and modalism.

I may also comment on the hypostatic union which you seemed to criticise. That you misidentify the flesh of Christ as being the divinity of Christ. That the two are not the same you must take into consideration. That I wear a glove does not make the glove apart of me, in the same way Christ wears the body of humanity, takes humanity onto himself it does not affect his divinity. Another person who simply cannot grasp God.

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Philokalia

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#97 Philokalia
Member since 2012 • 2910 Posts

Well yes, there is no biblical evidence of the trinity but i admire that despite all that you still believe in it. Faith is something that I can admire in others, the ability to ignore reality and focus on a goal is admirable, I would like the ability to tweak my mental state to anything i desire.

tenaka2

I admire that you have so much confidence despite being given the references which show the trinity. I could never do that. I imagine you would find someway to destroy the doctrine of tauwhid wihtin the quran if you had to. That because that word nowhere appears in it, therefore the quran doesn't accept it. Its admirable silliness. Although unlike GK Chesterton its not enduring or smart.

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champion837

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#98 champion837
Member since 2012 • 1423 Posts
[QUOTE="Philokalia"]

[QUOTE="wis3boi"]

if you had any logic, reasoning, critical thinking, evidence, and none of it required blind faith, I wouldn't dismiss it. Funny how you use terms incorrectly in a last ditch effort to save your already terrible arguments

MAZ85

Since when was my faith blind? Since when Have I lacked a reason? Since when have you demonstrated that the trinity is illogical or flawed?

I can't believe in trinity , just like a country can have only one president , this world can only have one god , this has been made clear in the quran :"Had there been within the heavens and earth gods besides Allah , they both would have been ruined. So exalted is Allah , Lord of the Throne, above what they describe." quran 20:22 so let's suppose the trinity is true , and there are 3 gods , the father , jesus and the holy ghost , and let's say as a rediculous example that the father decides an earthquake hits some place right now , and jesus doesn't want that to happen , then who would win ? there is only one god and his word is the word

If they are all one, then wouldn't that mean that they are in agreement if an event like that occured? I doubt that they would oppose each other.
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champion837

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#99 champion837
Member since 2012 • 1423 Posts

[QUOTE="Philokalia"]

[QUOTE="tenaka2"]

That is good to hear, I am glad your faith has grown stronger.

tenaka2

Will you merely insist I am making up the trinity and believing it despite the biblical evidence?

Well yes, there is no biblical evidence of the trinity but i admire that despite all that you still believe in it. Faith is something that I can admire in others, the ability to ignore reality and focus on a goal is admirable, I would like the ability to tweak my mental state to anything i desire.

Faith is obtainable, there are billions who practice it.

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ShadowMoses900

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#100 ShadowMoses900
Member since 2010 • 17081 Posts

You know, I have a question for Christians, and I don't mean to offend, it is a serious question and it comes from a Jewish point of view. Now I have read The Bible, both the KJV and the NIV, and I find many aspects of Jesus to be a bit confusing.

1) The trinity makes no sense to me, how can you have 3 gods? Or 3 parts of one god? To me this seems totally pagan, there is only one God with no image or idol. Not 3 parts or 3 aspects. The word trinity doesn't even appear in the bible, so where are people getting this from?

2) The idea that man can become God, or is God, is a pagan concept to Jews. Man is flawed, he cannot become god ever. Also to worship a man is to go against the law of false idols, and the concept of no man made image of God. Christians are going against these very concepts.

3) Sin, there is no origional sin ever mentioned in the bible. Such a concept is also flawed, some Christians believe that all men are born with sin or commited sin, and we deserve hell. They claim Jesus died for our sins and that only through acceptance that is the only way to go to heaven. This concept goes against God's law completely, for one God does not use human sacrifices, and there is no such thing as origional sin either, it is never mentioned once in the bible. And according to this view, all the Jews that died in the Shoah (Holocaust) are in hell (another concept that is not in the origional texts) and people like Hitler are in heaven becauase they were technically Christians. This is a very backwards, and quite frankly offensive, concept to me. It does not make God out to be loving or merficul.

4) God said his covenant with the Children of Israel is eternal. It is everlasting. So for Christians to deny this is like them calling God a liar, God does not lie. Many of the prophecies Jesus did not meet, he did a few things like come into Jerusalem on a Donkey. But he did not rebuild the temple, drive out the Romans or bring peace to the world and show all children the one true God. There was no resurrection of men either.

I respect Christians and I think Jesus had some great teachings and wisdom. But I don't think he was the messiah. So if Christians can clear up some of my confusions so I can better understand their views I will appreciate it. Thanks!