Is piracy/torrenting unethical?

Ethics are entirely subjective. So to some people it is, and to some it isnt.

Depends. If you can't find what you're looking for in stores or online by legal means, or if scalpers have blown up the price to outrageous proportions, or what you want isn't for sale in your country, then it's fine.

I have looked into this, as I started watching a lot of movies streaming online when I became a stay at home dad, it is not illegal.

Or watch a gameplay video on YouTube to decide if you might like it. :)

Piracy is a problem of service.

Problem with this logic: "car ownership" doesn't have a definite endpoint that occurs in a relatively short period of time. As in, even if you illegally stole the car in order to "test drive it" overnight, there is still the fact that having access to an awesome car is something that you can't really be "done with" in a weekend. This is vastly different to many things such as games/movies/books/songs. Those things all have a definite end point (in most cases). Point being: even if you pirate te entire series of Breaking Bad just to see if you like it, it's already over. You've finished it. Most people aren't gonna go back and rewatch the entire thing FOR FREE, even if they loved it. And that's the thing...a "test drive" isn't supposed to give you everything there is to get out of it, otherwise, why would anyone buy it? This also applies to many games. I loved Bioshock Infinite. I bought the whole thing legally, and loved it. But here's the thing...it's also not something I want to play again, free or otherwise. I literally got everything I wanted out of that game with one playthrough, and had zero indications that playing it a second time would enhance my experience.

So...IF I had pirated that game instead of buying it legally, what would be my incentive to pay money for a game that I already know I'm not gonna play?

Hey, the DISC isn't a license, it's a product. The CARTRIDGE isn't a license, it's a product.

Yes, I'm aware that when we "buy games", we're actually buying use of the license. But that only applies to the game actually working.Once you put Superman 64 on a physical cartridge, I am free to go sell THAT CARTRIDGE secondhand, or give it away for free. Just as if it was a sweater or a car or a painting.

Now, that doesn't mean that the cartridge/disc has to actually WORK once the secondhand buyer puts it into his game console. But anything that's on physical media? Yes, I own the physical media and can sell it or give it away. Anyone who has a problem with that is free to either STOP releasing their content on tangible physical media, or go through the effort of ensuring that the content is only playable for the initial user. Which companies have actually done, so good for them. If they think that used games are such a problem, then they need to bite the bullet and either stop releasing their shit on tangible media, or ensure that the digital content on that media isn't accessible for secondhand users. But people complain about Gamestop screwing over the game companies and...every time I've been there, they've been selling TANGIBLE media. Discs/cartridges. If I'm buying a PHYSICAL tangible item, then YES I get to resell it or give it away. You can tie the actual content to an account so that the disc/cartridge doesn't work when I give it away, but I still totally get to give that shit away once I'm done with it.

And that's STILL not equivalent to piracy. Because unless I actually copied the content from the disc/cartridge before giving it away or reselling it, I still lose that content once I sell it or give it away. So it's STILL a case of "one user at a time, per sale". This is still fundamentally different than the traditional notion of piracy, in which you COPY that shit and have hundreds or thousands of people using the content simultaneously off of one sale.

@MrGeezer: Why is the "one user at a time" argument being used so much in this thread? If I buy a game, finish it and pass it down to my friend, who does it for his friend until 10 people played the game it's 1 sale 10 people playing the game. If I make a copy of the disk and give it to 10 friends it's 1 sale, 10 people playing the game. What difference does it make how many people play it at the same time?
(This post has nothing to do with the ethics of piracy, I'm just trying to understand why is "one user at a time", from a monetary standpoint, such an important distinction?)

Well, i'm not really trying to argue for most people... this is just how I am with streaming movies. That's the closest thing to pirating I do... And I do go back to things I enjoy so that point is clearly subjective. Besides that, when I buy a movie or w/e that I have already seen for free online, it's less about wanting to watch it again and more about wanting to support something I think deserves support. I sometimes do this with things I watch on netflix or other legit streaming services as well. I always check hulu, netflix and amazon prime for any show before I watch it by other means. For instance, I did this with breaking bad... watched it all on netflix, bought the seasons. HBO previously did not have an option to watch their service without cable, I watched game of thrones by other means and bought the blu-ray sets when they were available. Now that HBO will be making their service available without cable I will probably pay for that, watch Game of Thrones there and then still go and buy the blu-ray. Now of course I don't go buy everything I watch online... but this is where my previous post comes into play. Why should I pay for something that I feel wasn't worth it? If I buy something at the store and I'm not happy with it then I can return it and get a full refund. Of course you can't un watch something, but this is the nature of the product... I don't feel the consumer should have to just take the loss on a product because of the nature of it. I mean, you can even return food that is completely unusable once returned, why should media be a crap shoot and the consumer takes the burden?

For the same reason that the economy would collapse if we all had futuristic 35th century matter replicators that let us perfectly copy anything. If everyone just copied everything cool without giving up the original, then copies would quickly outnumber the originals, and there would be no incentive to make anything new since there'd be no money to get from doing so.

Or let's put it this way...imagine a primitive society who doesn't have chairs. Then one dude invents the chair and sells ONE chair. If the original buyer of that chair gets to hand his chair around, then EVERYONE sees how awesome chairs are and has an incentive to go buy a chair. However, if the original buyer simply COPIES all of the chairs with a matter replicator that he found in a crashed alien spaceship, then EVERYONE in the tribe gets a chair. So...no incentive to buy a new one, since everyone already has one.

Hell, you'd might as well ask the difference between giving away a $100 bill, and simply making copies of a $100 bill and giving away the copies to 1000 people.

@MrGeezer: Except I need to sit down every day, while save for a few exceptions I only play each game once.

1) The thing is that you might support a show after you watched it, but laws aren't generally based around YOU. As in, YOU might be totally capable of driving drunk, but large numbers of people AREN'T. So it's probably better to look at the larger trend and realize that we should ban EVERYONE from driving drunk even if some people do it all the time without causing any problems. Look, I'm not denying that some people buy content even after they have 'finished" it, but we're sort of operating on a kind of "honor system" here. And it should be obvious that when the honor system is implemented, there are often a shitload of people who will abuse the hell out of it. Even if you do pirate (and don't say that you do, because of the TOS), this isn't about YOU. This is about PEOPLE. Whether or not piracy is unethical, hopefully we can agree that it should be ILLEGAL as shit, because lots of people DO abuse any kind of honor system. That might be fine if we're talking about the cookie jar in the company breakroom, but the entertainment industry generates a HUGE amount of revenue and is a pretty big fucking deal. It's hard to advocate for piracy being LEGAL and going on the honor system when the stakes are that freaking high.

2) And yes, you'll probably get a refund at many places for many reasons, because that's good customer service. Lots of places would rather eat the cost of a refund on a single item rather than lose a customer. But don't act like you're ENTITLED to that shit. After all, unless a product was damaged or defective, then you thinking that something "wasn't worth it" doesn't entitle you to a refund. That just indicates that maybe you should stop buying that shit. I mean...some people don't like cabbage. It's one thing if you buy cabbage from the store and the inside is moldy or full of spiders. Fine, ask for a refund. But if you're just "trying" cabbage "to see if you like it"? **** that. Cabbage is fucking cabbage. If the cabbage you bought wasn't defective, and it's just your personal preference that says that cabbage is crap, then no one is obligated to keep selling cabbage to you and then keep giving your money back until you find some cabbage that you like. The fact is that you weren't paying to like the cabbage, you were paying for the cabbage. As long as the cabbage wasn't defective or anything, no one's obligated to refund you for shit.

This is just like how most movie theaters won't refund your money because you didn't like the movie. You weren';t paying to LIKE the movie, you were paying to SEE the movie. If the projectionist kept fucking up or the sound was too low to hear the dialogue or if you complained to management about other viewers creating a disturbance and management ignored your complaints, then by all means ask for a refund. But asking for a refund because the cinematography sucked and the lead actress was miscast? **** that. That's not the theater chain's fault. So yeah, they likely WON'T give you a refund for that shit, because you SHOULDN'T get a refund for that shit.

3) So why the hell is "try before you buy" supposedly considered such an important thing? I mean, LOTS of things don't work that way. You brought up stores, but stores may sell things like bacon. You can get a refund on bacon for several reasons, but you MIGHT be shit out of luck if your only complaint is that you don't like bacon. No one's obligated to compensate you for that shit. So why the hell do we xpect to get a refund on a freaking video game just because the game sucks? If you're gonna ask for a refund, don't ask the store because the game sucking wasn't their fault. You can ask the developer/publisher for a refund, and good luck if they give you one. But at NO point were you paying for a game that you like. You were paying for use of the game. I realize that historically (and now) lots of games get released BROKEN. But a BROKEN game is different than "a game I don't like", just like a rotten watermelon is different than "there is nothing wrong with the watermelon, I just tried watermelon out and it doesn't suit my tastes."

Doesn't the "I only play each game once" thing sort of validate my point?

You can try a chair for one day, and it's awesome. But using that chair for one day doesn't negate the fact that you're gonna have to sit down TOMORROW. I already illustrated this with the car example. A hammer isn't usually "one and done." A car isn't usually "one and done". A chair isn't usually "one and done." Even if you've experienced all that those things have to offer on your brief "test drive", you're still probably gonna see a reason to buy that thing for use in the future.

This is NOT the case with games or movies or songs. Like a game? Fine. You're STILL probably only gonna play it once regardless of if you paid for it. Which makes the concept of a "test drive" kind of irrelevant if you're getting it illegally for free. At that point, it's the only drive you're ever gonna take, so why pay for it AFTER you've gotten the whole experience for free?

I absolutely LOVED Breaking Bad. But given the investment of time involved with these series, and the fact that I have limited time, and the fact that there's so much NEW shit I haven't seen, I'm VERY unlikely to go back and watch that whole series even though I loved it. So, IF I had watched it the first time by pirating it illegally and giving no compensation to the creators, it's sort of on me to just stick to the honor system to later pay for something that I'm not gonna watch again. It's the equivalent of drinking the last of the coffee and not bothering to brew a new pot. Why would I bother when I've already got all the coffee that I want?

@MrGeezer: Ok, but that has nothing to do with what we were discussing; I think you're getting your conversations mixed up. We were talking about passing one copy around versus several copies. If I only play a game once it's irrelevant whether I got a copy of a game or the game itself. We all get to play it and have no more need for it either way while the devs only got payed once regardless of how I got to play the game. In case of your chair example passing a chair around is definitely less damaging than replicating the chair because we'll need it constantly so it wouldn't do to sit on a chair once, I'd still have to buy it.

Like I said... I'm just talking about me. I get all your points, i'm not advocating that pirating be legal. The question was if it's ethical, I described what I personally do and I don't think what i'm doing is unethical and I know that it is legal. That's all.

The cabbage analogy doesn't fit to me... The cabbages job is not to taste good, it's to give you nutrients and stop hunger. If for some crazy ass reason it didn't do those things then I would want my money back... weather the store would do that or not isn't really the point. The movies job is not to just be watched, it's to be entertainment. I personally think if I went to a movie and it didn't entertain me then I should get a refund. Actually in my perfect scenario I would get a partial refund and the theater should keep it's profits because I still used their service. I know that the theater won't do that but just because they make the rules doesn't mean it's right. It's right for them because they will get more money that way. What I do is right for me because I don't think content creators deserve money just because I watched something, they deserve it if the content they created was worth the money. I know this is not how most people pirating will feel and I don't care, that's not the discussion i'm trying to have.

When I first entered the thread and saw that your posts were removed I was afraid you might have gotten banned. :( Thankfully Hallenbeck has our backs.

@johnd13: He sees all, protects the blabber mouths and punishes the people who cross the line! x)

I'll get banned someday either by Hallenbeck77 or Mr K lol.

Probably due to quote pyramids =P

MR. K like harley quinn calls the Joker "MR.J" hehe... i like that

I have a charming smile, unique personality and when I leave a place things are normally trashed...what can I say? I'm lovable.

@korvus: well the voting showed that you were to most lovable mod in OT :3

@dylandr: Are you scared? (I was gonna use a cool gif but my internet sucks so screw it lol)

I can think of no better way to go than being banned by a friend. :P

@johnd13: Fear is for the weak!

@dylandr: It takes a brave man to accept his fear! Not being sexist here, same goes for women I guess.

@johnd13: I have no fears, i conquer them before they happen!

@dylandr: Are you Batman?

@johnd13:

@dylandr: I chuckled.

@johnd13:

I'm so scared now, the man warning me already :(

as guilty as robin hood >;D

Don't worry indz. Everybody knows what a great guy you are, they would never hurt you!

Still i'm not taking chances lol. Quote chains are out =P

@indzman: Good I wish more people would do that.

I didn't think it was illegal to view. I knew it was illegal to host a stream, and it's illegal to download and store copyrighted items, but I wasn't 100% on watching a stream.

Illegal? Yes. Unethical? Given the practices of most corporations , not even a little.

That fact that it's called "piracy" pretty much answers these questions.

Gameplay videos aren't representative of anything though. Games are often filled with problems that aren't revealed by gameplay videos. Are you saying it's ethical for businesses to take advantage of consumer's in this regard? For example, Battlefield 4 had no gameplay videos indicating that much of game was broken upon launch. Many reviewers even questionably failed to touch upon it. So on launch, EA peddled a broken game to many thousands of consumers. If the businesses aren't being ethical when it comes to selling their product - why are customers expected to be ethical when it comes to purchasing it? If someone has to sit back and take it in the arse - why shouldn't it be the business if they're at fault for not delivering what's promised?

Common sense tells me that what's ethical is giving consumers a fair chance to test the product before giving it. The car analogy doesn't hold up : you're allowed to test-drive a car before you buy it. If the car owner doesn't let you - then you know that something is suspicious and you're at the risk of being scammed. You aren't allowed to test-drive a game on the otherhand. You're expected to make a blind purchase - which is basically the grounds for most unethical business practices.

And once again, piracy isn't stealing. It's copying. Nobody loses anything. If anything, it just gives consumers the opportunity to support a product they might not have supported otherwise. The moment it becomes unethical is when someone takes and keeps something without supporting what they genuinely like. Ideally, piracy doesn't have to be that. If people had more self control - it could be ethical and beneficial to all parties involved. An example of this: most metal bands support their music being illegally shared on Youtube (even the publishers) because it gives their music more exposure. There's an implicit understanding that if people find value in their product, it will be purchased.

The idea that businesses have a right to rip money from unsatisfied customer's hands from blind-purchases is silly. Just because you're used to being exploited by big-businesses doesn't necessarily mean that's the reality we have to endure. If someone bought something and they want their money back - they should be able to get it, plain and simple. There's no reason why everyone can't be happy. Origin, for example, lets you return any game on their service within 24 hours of purchase. That's an example of good business practice, a practice that counteracts piracy - and that probably emerged due to EA being one of the most complained about businesses in America.

Honestly, things are in a pretty good state, even with the amount of people using torrenting unethically, or freeloading pirates out there. Piracy has prevailed for decades - all of our entertainment industries are doing absolutely just fine.

The fact of the matter is software is suppose to be sold specifically to a single person with licensing agreement.. The only reason why video games are lagging behind is due to console connectivity with the internet... This shit has been in full swing for pc for a decade now.. From windows to digital copies being registered with a specific account, which services like Steam forbids you to resell.... The thing is used copies is a tangible lost profit, piracy can never guarentee actual lost sales because we have no clue how many would have bought the game to begin with.. Meanwhile we are seeing a used game industry in which people are spending actual currency in buying a used game quite often for as little as $5 less than a new copy of a game.. And it's funny you bring up the N64, because that is exactly my point.. Technology wasn't there to actually enforce such things to begin with, it is now catching up.

So hence why I will continue rolling my eyes when I see people demonize the piracy industry because of supposed lost profits to developers, while defending the use game industry in the same breath.. It is hypocrisy, you shouldn't be supporting either industry.. And I am sorry but that does not work about losing your copy of the game.. It is forbidden to trade off your accounts in things like Blizzard, Steam, and origin due to copy write reasons.. Same goes for Windows.. When you buy a license it is within the parameters of the agreement, in which most software forbids you trading it off to some one else.. Which services like steam are actively enforcing.

"Piracy" is a misnomer. It's correctly called copyright infringement.

Piracy involves robbery at sea, not making illicit copies of Britney Spears' new album.

Like anyone was actually going to buy that crap anyway :P

Typically, piracy is unethical (I say typically because you can construct examples where it's a gray area).

Also, the semantics debates over "stealing" versus "copyright infringement" are pointless.

Except those semantics have bearing across legal, moral and ethical boundaries.

@BboyStatix: Yes, it's unethical. Yes, it's stealing. Yes, it's illegal. But it happens, and it's going to continue happening. There is something of a solid counterargument that the consumers who share all of this media are spending far more on games, movies, etc than any other consumer.

I've "borrowed" media off of the Internet, as I think just about everybody on here has. The only two times I can pseudo-justify it to myself is if:

a.) It's something I've already purchased, but have since lost, broken, or rendered something unusable. While it's usually my fault that something I've purchased is no longer in working condition, I've already given the company my money for their product.

or

b.) it's something I will *literally* never spend money on, and if piracy were not an option, I would continue on without ever experiencing said media. For instance, Aliens Colonial Marines.

It is stealing but unethical? Ehhh, it depends what you are pirating. Does that stop people? Naw, not really.

So wait...now you're telling me that it's the consumer's responsibility to coddle the developers/publishers for using shitty technology?

Hey dude, when it comes to certain games, some people may not even PLAY the things. Same principle as people buying action figures and not opening the box. Once they put it on a disc or cartridge, the physical disc/cartridge ALONE potentially has value. If they don't want people reselling the game, then don't put it on a damn disc or cartridge. Whether or not the reason discs and cartridges were used is because digital only wasn't technologically feasible is beside the point. Sale of discs/cartridges isn't JUST about the use of the license, there's also a value in the actual physical media. And you can't ask people to just stop reselling and trading that media because you don't want them using the license. At that point, it STOPS being merely use of a license and becomes a PHYSICAL PRODUCT. And hell yes, I should be able to resell or give away any physical product that I buy, be it a car or a gun or a painting or a video game disc.

But hey, let's flip this around. There are few who would say that handing down your comic book collection to your little brother would be wrong. So...in your mind, does the fact that you can "ethically" hand down your comic book collection (or furniture, or clothes, etc) justify piracy? Would it still be just as ethical if you could COPY your comic book collection (or clothes, or money) and give that away to thousands of people while still keeping the original?

@MrGeezer: Good answer. I get it now.

To me it's stealing and it's something I don't do with any media these days. I do confess that I used to copy tapes and videos back in the day and even had a couple of pirate games but that was when I was a stupid kid. If I want something these days I just go out and buy it. Most music, games and films can be had cheap enough now, especially if you wait and buy it later.

Lots of my friends download stuff from Torrents and what not though and I'd never lecture them about it. If people can easily get something for free without getting in trouble or pissing off people they actually know, they will normally take it.