I don't get this about religion

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br0kenrabbit

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#1 br0kenrabbit
Member since 2004 • 17851 Posts

They say it's what you profess that determines whether you burn or bounce around on clouds.

Do they really think God is that shallow? Some of the kindest and most humble people I know are atheists, and some of the most prideful and angry people I know are Christians. Why would God take the latter over the former because of what they say with their mouths?

Religion is a load of bull-hockey. If (very big if) God exists, don't you think he's intelligent enough to judge character and not what you do on Sundays?

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Chaos_HL21

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#2  Edited By Chaos_HL21
Member since 2003 • 5288 Posts

There is a difference between profess yourself as a Christian or any other religion that haves a belief in the afterlife and being one. Just professing it doesn't get you into heaven.

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chessmaster1989

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#3  Edited By chessmaster1989
Member since 2008 • 30203 Posts

Of course, from a Christian perspective, God can judge character, and a truly unrepentantly hateful Christian says they are a Christian with their mouth but not their heart. Yet cannot, as you say, God see what comes from the heart, and judge based on that? Indeed my recollection is that the Bible addresses this idea specifically.

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themajormayor

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#4 themajormayor
Member since 2011 • 25729 Posts

Who are they? I think you need to rename this thread.

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br0kenrabbit

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#6 br0kenrabbit
Member since 2004 • 17851 Posts

@Chaos_HL21 said:

There is a difference between profess yourself as a Christian or any other religion that haves a belief in the afterlife and being one. Just professing it doesn't get you into heaven.

According to Christians, professing the belief is part of the belief. There's quite a few passages in The Bible covering this.

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MakeMeaSammitch

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#7  Edited By MakeMeaSammitch
Member since 2012 • 4889 Posts

If you read the bible, it becomes very obvious that the Christian God is evil.

Seriously, the guy makes Hitler look like a saint.

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lostrib

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#8  Edited By lostrib
Member since 2009 • 49999 Posts

Just like in everything, religion has it's fair share of awful people

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limpbizkit818

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#9 limpbizkit818
Member since 2004 • 15044 Posts

The New Testament is not that hard to read. You should give it a skim.

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br0kenrabbit

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#10  Edited By br0kenrabbit
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@MakeMeaSammitch said:

If you read the bible, it becomes very obvious that the Christian God is evil.

It becomes obvious to me that Yahweh is the same Yahweh storm God (synomonous with war God) of the Canaanite pantheon. Look at his descriptions in the Torah...thunder, clouds, "kill everyone", etc.

Then you have all the Babylonian stories transcribed into Jewish tradition, and so on and so forth.

It's folklore.

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Master_Live

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#11  Edited By Master_Live
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br0kenrabbit

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#12 br0kenrabbit
Member since 2004 • 17851 Posts

@limpbizkit818 said:

The New Testament is not that hard to read. You should give it a skim.

I have, in the original Greek. Still doesn't make sense. Besides, you get things like the Gospels being obviously written by a number of different people (thus the stories don't line up) and it becomes obvious what it is.

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chessmaster1989

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#13 chessmaster1989
Member since 2008 • 30203 Posts

Perhaps, br0kenrabbit, rather than posting a foolish question (which you doubtless know is strawmanning Christian beliefs), you should ask a more legitimate philosophical question about why faith is Christ would bring salvation.

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themajormayor

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#14 themajormayor
Member since 2011 • 25729 Posts

@br0kenrabbit said:

@limpbizkit818 said:

The New Testament is not that hard to read. You should give it a skim.

I have, in the original Greek. Still doesn't make sense. Besides, you get things like the Gospels being obviously written by a number of different people (thus the stories don't line up) and it becomes obvious what it is.

Move away from Tennessee and America and you'll not need to make threads like this all the time.

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br0kenrabbit

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#15 br0kenrabbit
Member since 2004 • 17851 Posts

@themajormayor said:

Move away from Tennessee and America and you'll not need to make threads like this all the time.

I have. I lived in Canada for five years, it was even worse there what with all the Catholics.

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br0kenrabbit

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#16 br0kenrabbit
Member since 2004 • 17851 Posts

@chessmaster1989 said:

Perhaps, br0kenrabbit, rather than posting a foolish question (which you doubtless know is strawmanning Christian beliefs), you should ask a more legitimate philosophical question about why faith is Christ would bring salvation.

Better question: why would Christ pray to himself to "let this cup pass" when he already knew he would tell himself "no"? Eh? Couldn't he have spent his last moments doing something fruitful?

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themajormayor

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#17 themajormayor
Member since 2011 • 25729 Posts

@br0kenrabbit said:

@themajormayor said:

Move away from Tennessee and America and you'll not need to make threads like this all the time.

I have. I lived in Canada for five years, it was even worse there what with all the Catholics.

Ok. I meant like move to Sweden. Or Japan. Although don't move to Sweden. Sweden sucks.

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br0kenrabbit

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#18 br0kenrabbit
Member since 2004 • 17851 Posts

@themajormayor said:

Ok. I meant like move to Sweden. Or Japan. Although don't move to Sweden. Sweden sucks.

Japan is one of the most racist, xenophobic places I've ever visited. Why would I want to go back?

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themajormayor

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#19 themajormayor
Member since 2011 • 25729 Posts

@br0kenrabbit said:

@themajormayor said:

Ok. I meant like move to Sweden. Or Japan. Although don't move to Sweden. Sweden sucks.

Japan is one of the most racist, xenophobic places I've ever visited. Why would I want to go back?

Ok go to Netherlands.

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br0kenrabbit

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#20 br0kenrabbit
Member since 2004 • 17851 Posts

@themajormayor said:

Ok go to Netherlands.

I just built this house a few years ago. My stake is planted. Doesn't mean I have to keep putting up with peoples shit and not complain about it.

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limpbizkit818

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#21  Edited By limpbizkit818
Member since 2004 • 15044 Posts

@br0kenrabbit said:

@limpbizkit818 said:

The New Testament is not that hard to read. You should give it a skim.

I have, in the original Greek. Still doesn't make sense. Besides, you get things like the Gospels being obviously written by a number of different people (thus the stories don't line up) and it becomes obvious what it is.

There is plenty of debate over who wrote the gospels. I'm not sure anything about the authors is obvious.

Also, if God does something you do no like that does not make the story any more or less "bull-hockey". There is no reason why God should act in the way that pleases you.

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ferrari2001

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#22 ferrari2001
Member since 2008 • 17772 Posts

@br0kenrabbit said:

@limpbizkit818 said:

The New Testament is not that hard to read. You should give it a skim.

I have, in the original Greek. Still doesn't make sense. Besides, you get things like the Gospels being obviously written by a number of different people (thus the stories don't line up) and it becomes obvious what it is.

I call Bullshit. No way you read the entire NT in the original Greek. And in the grand scheme of things very few religious groups believe that by simply professing to be Christian gets you into heaven. Try not to equate fundamentalism with every other religious group.

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chessmaster1989

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#23  Edited By chessmaster1989
Member since 2008 • 30203 Posts
@br0kenrabbit said:

@chessmaster1989 said:

Perhaps, br0kenrabbit, rather than posting a foolish question (which you doubtless know is strawmanning Christian beliefs), you should ask a more legitimate philosophical question about why faith is Christ would bring salvation.

Better question: why would Christ pray to himself to "let this cup pass" when he already knew he would tell himself "no"? Eh? Couldn't he have spent his last moments doing something fruitful?

I don't have a great answer to this because I don't have a great understanding of this passage (there is much of the Bible that I don't have a great understanding of). But why are you changing the subject? Are you interested in legitimate discussion, or simply in bashing religion (it would seem to be the latter)?

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br0kenrabbit

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#24  Edited By br0kenrabbit
Member since 2004 • 17851 Posts

@limpbizkit818 said:

@br0kenrabbit said:

@limpbizkit818 said:

The New Testament is not that hard to read. You should give it a skim.

I have, in the original Greek. Still doesn't make sense. Besides, you get things like the Gospels being obviously written by a number of different people (thus the stories don't line up) and it becomes obvious what it is.

There is plenty of debate over who wrote the gospels. I'm not sure anything about the authors is obvious.

Also, if God does something you do no like that does not make the story any more or less "bull-hockey". There is no reason why God should act in the way that pleases you.

If I wrote a paragraph, and then you wrote the next one, would it not be obvious that there were two different authors? This is what you come across when reading in the original languages. It's that obvious.

Further, I'm looking beyond The Bible. Science, history, archeology, genetics, astronomy...The bible contradicts all of these. And again, just looking at history, it's obvious many of the stories in Old Testament did not originate there but with other cultures, because we have those recorded (The Flood/Gilgamesh for example, plus all the Garden stories that predate Genesis, among others).

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br0kenrabbit

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#25 br0kenrabbit
Member since 2004 • 17851 Posts

@chessmaster1989 said:
@br0kenrabbit said:

@chessmaster1989 said:

Perhaps, br0kenrabbit, rather than posting a foolish question (which you doubtless know is strawmanning Christian beliefs), you should ask a more legitimate philosophical question about why faith is Christ would bring salvation.

Better question: why would Christ pray to himself to "let this cup pass" when he already knew he would tell himself "no"? Eh? Couldn't he have spent his last moments doing something fruitful?

I don't have a great answer to this because I don't have a great understanding of this passage (there is much of the Bible that I don't have a great understanding of). But why are you changing the subject? Are you interested in legitimate discussion, or simply in bashing religion (it would seem to be the latter)?

My point being this: How can you take something as, pun intended, the 'Gospel Truth' when it's so obviously a mish-mash of previous history and wishful thinking?

It's like the Ken Ham/Bill Nye debate...the only real response Ken ever gave was "I know it's so because it's in the Bible".

Talk about self-fulfillment.

I can write an entirely self-referential piece of literature as well as the next man, that doesn't make it so.

Christianity isn't the first religion to propose salvation based on faith in a personage. It really isn't that different from a lot of religions that were around at the time, it just happened to get the backing of the worlds largest power at the time and mercilessly persecuted those who thought differently.

Had it not been taken up by the Roman Empire, it probably would have died out a long time ago.

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chessmaster1989

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#26 chessmaster1989
Member since 2008 • 30203 Posts

Let me preface my next paragraphs by saying my goal in this thread is not to defend Christianity. I do have issues of my own with some ideas (as I understand them) in the Bible, but I won't fully pass judgment until I know better whether I have understood them correctly, which I readily admit I probably often have not.

My point being this: your OP either indicates a fundamental lack of knowledge of the most basic ideas of Christianity, or that you are being deliberately dishonest. You then shift from point to point, trying to paint yourself as an expert while throwing out vague references to how you know it's all a hoax, seemingly hopeful that people will just take you at your word. Perhaps you do know what you're talking about and are just being deliberately dishonest in some of your posts, or perhaps you don't and so are lying to try to establish credibility.

Regardless, you show both a lack of integrity and character. Your attempts to use assertiveness to appeal to people without strong understandings of Christian beliefs (whether atheist, Christian, or otherwise) is a poor reflection on your own knowledge. It makes me doubt that you have done the study that you say you have, or even if you have you do not appear to have profited from it.

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#27 foxhound_fox
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Religion; you are trying to make sense of something that wasn't ever meant to make any.

The point of religious ritual and mythology is to invoke a sense of detachment from one's inclination towards the real (objective) and logical. It helps heighten one's attunement to and appreciation of life (i.e. detaching from the understanding of the objective gives greater appreciation for it, if that makes sense).

Some people like the idea of a God that judges everyone and comes to Earth to only kill himself and rise from the dead (personally, I have no fucking clue how these myths can help one appreciate life more, being so anti-life to begin with), but then it isn't for me to say, as I'm not affected by them at all).

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br0kenrabbit

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#28 br0kenrabbit
Member since 2004 • 17851 Posts

@ferrari2001 said:

I call Bullshit. No way you read the entire NT in the original Greek. And in the grand scheme of things very few religious groups believe that by simply professing to be Christian gets you into heaven. Try not to equate fundamentalism with every other religious group.

Έχω πράγματι

I've been studying the languages of The Bible as long as I have seriously studied The Bible (20+ years). I don't study it for religious reasons, I just have an interest in reaching as far back in time as possible, be it through archeology, astronomy, genetics, or language.

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br0kenrabbit

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#29  Edited By br0kenrabbit
Member since 2004 • 17851 Posts

@chessmaster1989 said:

Let me preface my next paragraphs by saying my goal in this thread is not to defend Christianity. I do have issues of my own with some ideas (as I understand them) in the Bible, but I won't fully pass judgment until I know better whether I have understood them correctly, which I readily admit I probably often have not.

My point being this: your OP either indicates a fundamental lack of knowledge of the most basic ideas of Christianity, or that you are being deliberately dishonest. You then shift from point to point, trying to paint yourself as an expert while throwing out vague references to how you know it's all a hoax, seemingly hopeful that people will just take you at your word. Perhaps you do know what you're talking about and are just being deliberately dishonest in some of your posts, or perhaps you don't and so are lying to try to establish credibility.

Regardless, you show both a lack of integrity and character. Your attempts to use assertiveness to appeal to people without strong understandings of Christian beliefs (whether atheist, Christian, or otherwise) is a poor reflection on your own knowledge. It makes me doubt that you have done the study that you say you have, or even if you have you do not appear to have profited from it.

You're not understanding something: I'm replying to the posts I quote, not necessarily directly to my OP. Conversations flow, that's the nature of the beast.

And if you want to get specific, the principle branch of Christianity around here is Baptist, where "If you confess of your sins, you are forgiven, past and present". Salvation is by 'Faith Alone', not actions. This is the belief I am primarily attacking in the OP, everything else was in response to someone elses post. I quote them specifically so there's no question as to who or what I'm replying to.

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CountBleck12

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#30  Edited By CountBleck12
Member since 2012 • 4726 Posts
@foxhound_fox said:

Religion; you are trying to make sense of something that wasn't ever meant to make any.

The point of religious ritual and mythology is to invoke a sense of detachment from one's inclination towards the real (objective) and logical. It helps heighten one's attunement to and appreciation of life (i.e. detaching from the understanding of the objective gives greater appreciation for it, if that makes sense).

Some people like the idea of a God that judges everyone and comes to Earth to only kill himself and rise from the dead (personally, I have no fucking clue how these myths can help one appreciate life more, being so anti-life to begin with), but then it isn't for me to say, as I'm not affected by them at all).

I have to agree, although being a member of any religion is hypocritical because it involves you making an entirely unwarranted special exception for one belief while dismissing all others.

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br0kenrabbit

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#32  Edited By br0kenrabbit
Member since 2004 • 17851 Posts

@chessmaster1989 said:

Your first comment is clearly not true, since when I have replied directly to your OP you have not responded directly, but have either ignored it or returned with a different and unrelated point.

------------------------

Of course, from a Christian perspective, God can judge character, and a truly unrepentantly hateful Christian says they are a Christian with their mouth but not their heart. Yet cannot, as you say, God see what comes from the heart, and judge based on that? Indeed my recollection is that the Bible addresses this idea specifically.

Are you talking about this comment? Because it's the first time I've seen it. I was likely typing my response to Chaos while you posted, and the way these forums work, when you post a reply it doesn't update to include those who posted between the time you click "reply" and "post".

My point being, if God is a true judge then your religion or lack thereof will have no bearing on judgement. Of course, this is against all The Bible states, and that's my point. Romans 10 anyone?

Edit: It would help if you quoted me or @me so I know you replied...that's how I keep track of who to reply to. You haven't done so which is why I've missed your posts.

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deactivated-5acfa3a8bc51d

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#33 deactivated-5acfa3a8bc51d
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First off not every religion or person about it is the same. This sounds like the argument is faith good enough without the works. Well we would have to discuss is Paul a genuine apostle? Since most of his teachings seem contrary to the gospels of Jesus Christ.

James chapter 2 states works are required with faith. While romans and Ephesians credited to Paul mentions faith is fine without works. I'll give exact quotation if anyone interested. Just Google apostle Paul and you can read about this old argument because people do justify just have faith alone don't worry about your works by quoting Paul.

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br0kenrabbit

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#34  Edited By br0kenrabbit
Member since 2004 • 17851 Posts

@chessmaster1989 said:

you should ask a more legitimate philosophical question about why faith is (sic) Christ would bring salvation.

This part...the more I think about it the more I think this was the emphasis of your post instead of the one-off I originally thought it. I want to comment.

I suppose your reasoning for asking the above is that you believe people are born in what Christians refer to as 'a fallen state', that is, into sin. i.e. we are all wicked from birth (due to oneguy long ago eating a fig. Seriously?).

What a shitty thing to believe. No wonder Christians are so angry.

I, for one, would rather believe that most people are good-spirited by nature. People are individually complex beings and to judge people by the darker facets that we all share is to ignore the strength people have to push those dark tendencies aside and treat their fellow man with goodwill and respect. As most people do.

Evil does exist, and I don't need to give names or crimes because I'm sure you can make an impressive list of them yourself. Most people aren't like that, though they have the capacity to be. The fact that most of us aren't like that, I believe, speaks well for the nature of humanity.

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#35 MrGeezer
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@Chaos_HL21 said:

There is a difference between profess yourself as a Christian or any other religion that haves a belief in the afterlife and being one. Just professing it doesn't get you into heaven.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong here, but here's what I'm understanding.

1) All humans sin.

2) Therefore, it is essentially impossible to be "saved" based on works alone.

3) Therefore, Jesus Christ was sent to earth to die for our sins. If you are a sinner, you're still saved as long as you trully accept Jesus Christ as yourt saviour.

Again...maybe I'm grossly misinterpretting things here. But that's the impression that I got. And if I'm in the ballpark with regards to this, then that doesn't really counter what Brokenrabbit was saying.

That is STILL placing beliefs/intentions over actual WORK. It is literally the case that someone who rapes and murders his entire life could TRULY profess himself as a Christian on his deathbed and be saved, while some atheist or Muslim or Jew could spend his entire life being dedicated to goodness and then still be damned because of some minor fuckups that don't acvtually hurt anyone. And yes...that's kind of fucked up. I'm of the opinion that yes, we ARE fucking defined by our WORKS. That's how it SHOULD be. You could be the nicest most kind and caring person in the world, but if you can't do your fucking job then you're probably going to get fired. Good intentions don't get burgers flipped or dishes washed, and good intentions also don't stop people from killing, raping, or stealing. It's sort of bullshit to allow a rule where people can **** up HORRIBLY throughout their entire lives and then get saved due to religion, where the guy who did the actual WORK gets fucked over on a technicality.

And that's not even a slam against Jesus. From what I've heard, he was a pretty fly dude aside from acting like the fucking Messiah. But if that God Complex resulted in him MOSTLY not being a jerk, then who am I to complain? As Bill Duke said in Menace 2 Society, you believe whatever you have to believe as long as it makes you a better person.

But this aspect of the RELIGION is pretty fucked up.

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betamaxx83

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#36 betamaxx83
Member since 2013 • 360 Posts

God doesn't exist. Tell me, would you want to live in Heaven for an eternity? Happily ever after in God's "Kingdom"?

Sounds boring right? It does to me.

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#37 Chaos_HL21
Member since 2003 • 5288 Posts

@MrGeezer:

You are greatly grossly misinterpret ting the issue and making it too simple.

It is possible for an atheist (or people who follow other regions) to find salvation (go to heaven), if that person is a 'good' person. On the other side of the coin it is possible for a Christian or Catholic to go to Hell if that person is a 'bad' person.

About your point about the person who profess on their deathbed. If that person truly asked God for forgiveness and truly seeks salvation it is possible, but seeking salvation and finding salvation are not the same.

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deactivated-5b797108c254e

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#38  Edited By deactivated-5b797108c254e
Member since 2013 • 11245 Posts
@themajormayor said:

Ok go to Netherlands.

Sorry to disappoint you there but I have moved to the Netherlands and while you can pretty much say and do whatever you want here, that also means that you'll be criticised openly by everyone and nobody (even relative strangers) will have a problem with pointing out "what you're doing wrong". People here seem to believe that if you don't say absolutely everything that comes to mind you're being dishonest. I was raised with a "If you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything" way of thinking so it's strange for me to live in a place where having a "filter" in what comes out of your mouth is a bad thing.

Takes a while to get used to it...

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LJS9502_basic

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#39 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 178808 Posts

@thegerg said:

Try not to generalize so much. Not all religion is as similar as you seem to think.

Agree with thegerg.....woah.

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dave123321

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#40 dave123321
Member since 2003 • 35553 Posts

@br0kenrabbit: tc please be more accepting of others

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#41 deeliman
Member since 2013 • 4027 Posts

@Korvus85 I'm Dutch, and while it is true what you're saying, it applies more to things like, if your hair looks messy people will tell you that. Generally people don't like talking about religion with each other, and they wont try to convert you (except maybe for Jehovah's witnesses, but they'll also leave you alone if you tell them you're not interested).

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hippiesanta

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#42 hippiesanta
Member since 2005 • 10301 Posts

@dave123321 said:

@br0kenrabbit: tc please be more accepting of others

lol ...

atheist is too emo nowadays

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deactivated-5b797108c254e

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#43 deactivated-5b797108c254e
Member since 2013 • 11245 Posts

@deeliman: For most part that is true, but I've had my share of people coming to me and asking me directly what my religion and political party were (but it's true, they didn't try to convert me); which it wouldn't be something you'd do where I come from (in Portugal) but that doesn't bother me; I see it as a conversation opener although I'm still not saying who I voted for (rooted Portuguese behaviour =P).

What I do mind is conversations like I had the first time I met one of my fiancé's friends and she asked me what my mother thought of me moving to so far away, I said she wasn't thrilled and the person flat out said "well, if she loved you, she'd be ok with it". To me that's way over the line, and none of her damn business. Maybe I'm naive but I'd see that as rude in any country but everybody else there just shrugged at what she said and replied "yeah, that's probably true". That was the day I moved here...complete shocker.

To further that feeling, sometime during the conversation I got asked something personal and I replied with "I'm not really comfortable talking about this" and she replied "You don't have to be comfortable, you just have to answer". Then all of a sudden I was the rude one for refusing to reveal things that were personal.

(Also, I find it funny that I had people ask me how my sex life was, but look at me like I'm a baby killer if I talk about money...so far that's the only taboo conversation topic I have found...I make sure to always use it to shut annoying people up =P)

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NaveedLife

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#44 NaveedLife
Member since 2010 • 17179 Posts

There is a difference between saying you are a christian and being a christian. Noone is perfect either. We know that and god knows that.

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clone01

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#45 clone01
Member since 2003 • 29822 Posts

@br0kenrabbit said:

@MakeMeaSammitch said:

If you read the bible, it becomes very obvious that the Christian God is evil.

It becomes obvious to me that Yahweh is the same Yahweh storm God (synomonous with war God) of the Canaanite pantheon. Look at his descriptions in the Torah...thunder, clouds, "kill everyone", etc.

Then you have all the Babylonian stories transcribed into Jewish tradition, and so on and so forth.

It's folklore.

Maybe. But what is the problem with people having faith in something?

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ad1x2

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#46 ad1x2
Member since 2005 • 8430 Posts

I think that the people who make it their business to bash all religion consider being a little more mature. I understand bashing the fundamentalists who are in power that use their authority to pass laws that are based on their beliefs, such as people who pass laws against stem-cell research or gay marriage. But not all religion is created equal.

The way I look at things is I don't treat all teenagers with contempt over the select few who are douchebags that make it a point to disrespect anybody who is in a position of authority, I just disregard the assholes and respect the rest. I look at religion the same way, with Islam I respect peaceful Muslims and have no problem putting a bullet in the heads of extremists trying to kill me, my family, or my peers.

Also, it seems like you misunderstand the idea of salvation. Most denominations preach that claiming to be a Christian isn't enough. Timothy McVeigh claimed to be a Christian and most religious people share the opinion that he is still in Hell. A similar opinion is held with Catholic priests who molested children.

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deeliman

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#47 deeliman
Member since 2013 • 4027 Posts

@Korvus85 Mmh, never had that happen to me before, to tell you the truth. Where exactly did you live in the netherlands? Because people over here consider those to be rude questions as well.

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deactivated-5b797108c254e

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#48 deactivated-5b797108c254e
Member since 2013 • 11245 Posts

@deeliman: Nijmegen. And it's not like I'm hanging around with "the wrong crowd", maybe they're just overly familiar since they're my fiancé's friends and don't realise that that doesn't automatically make them my friends. Still, hearing that that type of behaviour is not generally accepted here is a relief.

And my apologies to the OP for derailing this thread a bit; I'll stop before I have to self-moderate =P

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deactivated-58061ea11c905

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#50  Edited By deactivated-58061ea11c905
Member since 2011 • 999 Posts

I think this song sums up my stance on religion and the miserable state of this world.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awA6_oBobdM