How should transgendered athletes compete?

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#1 Posted by ghoklebutter (19327 posts) -

Assuming that Fox has gone through hormone replacement therapy, I'm certain that the effects of estradiol, anti-androgens, etc. have rid her of any advantage she may have had prior to HRT. In fact, I know trans* people who have gone through HRT, and they report a significant loss of physical strength after starting the treatment.

#2 Posted by airshocker (28728 posts) -

You can't honestly say that someone who was male for their entire life and then became female won't have an advantage over someone who has been a female for their entire life.

I mean, just look at the MMA fighter who had a MTF sex change. How is that fair for the female fighter?

I think people are making the mistake of being too politically correct about this when it's actually very simple. You shouldn't be allowed to compete if you've had a sex change.

#3 Posted by General_X (9026 posts) -
[QUOTE="ghoklebutter"][QUOTE="General_X"]I've mulled over this exact question myself regarding a MTF woman who plays women's basketball, I was never able to settle on a suitable answer. :S http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2012/12/18/6-foot-8-transgender-player-takes-court-against-delta-college/

Do you really think someone with an average woman's level of testosterone as a result of HRT is going have an unfair advantage in sports?

While I don't doubt their testosterone levels have dropped dramatically, I can't for sure say there are no residual advantages from once having as much testosterone as a typical male, for example in the story I linked she sure doesn't appear to have the frame or apparent muscle mass of an average woman...
#4 Posted by Stinger78 (5826 posts) -

Maybe all the trans-athletes should just compete against other trans-athletes in their own organizations. If someone is born male, gets parts changed to be female and then expects to compete with actual born female opponents, I do not think they should be allowed. Generally men do have physical advantages over women.

Edit:  If a sport happens to allow both male and female competitors in the same events, then I can't see an issue.

#5 Posted by Chutebox (36406 posts) -

Fight in a division according to their chromosomes.  You know, what they really are.

#6 Posted by sonicare (53448 posts) -

I was just reading this article on CNN about this subject.  They interviewed the current women's MMA champ, Rhonda Rousey, about fighting a transgendered fighter, Fallon Fox.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/gameon/2013/04/11/ufc-ronda-rousey-transgender-fighter-fallon-fox/2072937/

I'm all for equality, but I do agree that Fox has a major advantage.  While gender can be considered an idea, your sex is not.  Men and women have different bodies.  The average male tends to be stronger, faster, larger, etc., than the average female.  This isnt sexist talk, it's just how our species is.  Certainly some women can outperform some men, but the average man would likely outpeform the average woman.

Especially in a sport that involves physical combat, a male body type would have substantial physical advantages.  Is it fair to Rousey to have to fight a male (gender role being she) in a female league?

#7 Posted by ferrari2001 (16736 posts) -
Athletics should be divided by sex not gender. Gender is a social construct while sex is based entirely on the genetic code you were given at conception.
#8 Posted by sonicare (53448 posts) -
Athletics should be divided by sex not gender. Gender is a social construct while sex is based entirely on the genetic code you were given at conception. ferrari2001
Those are my thoughts. I dont want to give the idea that I have anything againt someone that is transgendered. I just think when it comes to things like sports, you have to go based on the sex.
#9 Posted by Aljosa23 (24539 posts) -

I don't really care. It's entertainment and they should go with whatever provides better entertainment and competition for viewers.

#10 Posted by Aljosa23 (24539 posts) -

Assuming that Fox has gone through hormone replacement therapy, I'm certain that the effects of estradiol, anti-androgens, etc. have rid her of any advantage she may have had prior to HRT. ghoklebutter
Also this.

#11 Posted by General_X (9026 posts) -
#12 Posted by ghoklebutter (19327 posts) -
Athletics should be divided by sex not gender. Gender is a social construct while sex is based entirely on the genetic code you were given at conception. ferrari2001
Gender expression is a social construct, but not gender identity.
#13 Posted by ghoklebutter (19327 posts) -
#14 Posted by sonicare (53448 posts) -

Assuming that Fox has gone through hormone replacement therapy, I'm certain that the effects of estradiol, anti-androgens, etc. have rid her of any advantage she may have had prior to HRT. In fact, I know trans* people who have gone through HRT, and they report a significant loss of physical strength after starting the treatment.

ghoklebutter
Not necessarily. Your physical attributes are affected by more than just hormones. Being treated with estrogens do not rid her of ANY advantage. While they may have some physiologic effects, she is still going to have differences compared with a genetic female.
#15 Posted by surrealnumber5 (23044 posts) -
i dont think i care and neither should you unless you are a franchise or team owner in what ever sports league you are in. if college football wants to get unify sexes in sports cool, if they wish to set up a trans gender team, cool. let those playing the game and directly involved in the game make these decisions, if the audience does not like the decision they can always change back or make other arrangements. in the long list of non-issues, this one ranks kinda high.
#16 Posted by sonicare (53448 posts) -
i dont think i care and neither should you unless you are a franchise or team owner in what ever sports league you are in. if college football wants to get unify sexes in sports cool, if they wish to set up a trans gender team, cool. let those playing the game and directly involved in the game make these decisions, if the audience does not like the decision they can always change back or make other arrangements. in the long list of non-issues, this one ranks kinda high. surrealnumber5
This is possibly the single biggest issue facing the country. That or whether large sized sugary drinks should be served in NYC.
#17 Posted by ghoklebutter (19327 posts) -

[QUOTE="ghoklebutter"]

Assuming that Fox has gone through hormone replacement therapy, I'm certain that the effects of estradiol, anti-androgens, etc. have rid her of any advantage she may have had prior to HRT. In fact, I know trans* people who have gone through HRT, and they report a significant loss of physical strength after starting the treatment.

sonicare

Not necessarily. Your physical attributes are affected by more than just hormones. Being treated with estrogens do not rid her of ANY advantage. While they may have some physiologic effects, she is still going to have differences compared with a genetic female.

Note that I also mentioned anti-androgens. And this is what androgens do to the body. 

#18 Posted by surrealnumber5 (23044 posts) -
[QUOTE="surrealnumber5"]i dont think i care and neither should you unless you are a franchise or team owner in what ever sports league you are in. if college football wants to get unify sexes in sports cool, if they wish to set up a trans gender team, cool. let those playing the game and directly involved in the game make these decisions, if the audience does not like the decision they can always change back or make other arrangements. in the long list of non-issues, this one ranks kinda high. sonicare
This is possibly the single biggest issue facing the country. That or whether large sized sugary drinks should be served in NYC.

according to a new freedom(french) study, bras serve no purpose and even has detrimental effects, getting rid of female flesh binding is more important! http://www.thelocal.fr/page/view/breasts-better-off-without-bras-french-study#.UWhMwMqjOM0
#19 Posted by Oleg_Huzwog (21885 posts) -

Hormone therapy doesn't reduce or reshape bone mass, right?  Doesn't she still have the skeletal structure of a man?

#20 Posted by airshocker (28728 posts) -

A person having access to a large amount of testosterone for most of their life will obviously have an advantage over someone who hasn't. I don't see how that's really even debatable.

#21 Posted by LJS9502_basic (149977 posts) -
Athletics should be divided by sex not gender. Gender is a social construct while sex is based entirely on the genetic code you were given at conception. ferrari2001
This.....
#22 Posted by AcidThunder (2332 posts) -
should be allowed to only compete with people the same sex as them. otherwise it's unfair to the other people.
#23 Posted by Capitan_Kid (6516 posts) -

You can't honestly say that someone who was male for their entire life and then became female won't have an advantage over someone who has been a female for their entire life.

I mean, just look at the MMA fighter who had a MTF sex change. How is that fair for the female fighter?

I think people are making the mistake of being too politically correct about this when it's actually very simple. You shouldn't be allowed to compete if you've had a sex change.

airshocker
Bingo
#24 Posted by jeremiah06 (7169 posts) -
This isn't a tough question to answer... Either compete with men or start a trans league...
#25 Posted by NEWMAHAY (3760 posts) -
Athletics should be divided by sex not gender. Gender is a social construct while sex is based entirely on the genetic code you were given at conception. ferrari2001
#26 Posted by Hate_Squad (1353 posts) -

You can't honestly say that someone who was male for their entire life and then became female won't have an advantage over someone who has been a female for their entire life.

I mean, just look at the MMA fighter who had a MTF sex change. How is that fair for the female fighter?

I think people are making the mistake of being too politically correct about this when it's actually very simple. You shouldn't be allowed to compete if you've had a sex change.

airshocker

this,ythey arent  even normal human beings,the should make a monster league especially for stuff like that

#27 Posted by jeremiah06 (7169 posts) -

[QUOTE="airshocker"]

You can't honestly say that someone who was male for their entire life and then became female won't have an advantage over someone who has been a female for their entire life.

I mean, just look at the MMA fighter who had a MTF sex change. How is that fair for the female fighter?

I think people are making the mistake of being too politically correct about this when it's actually very simple. You shouldn't be allowed to compete if you've had a sex change.

Hate_Squad

this,ythey arent  even normal human beings,the should make a monster league especially for stuff like that

Monster? Lol
#28 Posted by surrealnumber5 (23044 posts) -
[QUOTE="Hate_Squad"]

[QUOTE="airshocker"]

You can't honestly say that someone who was male for their entire life and then became female won't have an advantage over someone who has been a female for their entire life.

I mean, just look at the MMA fighter who had a MTF sex change. How is that fair for the female fighter?

I think people are making the mistake of being too politically correct about this when it's actually very simple. You shouldn't be allowed to compete if you've had a sex change.

jeremiah06

this,ythey arent  even normal human beings,the should make a monster league especially for stuff like that

Monster? Lol

or maybe trap leagues. like 'trap' pre-op 'secret trap' post-op 'WTF' for hermaphrodites
#29 Posted by LoG-Sacrament (20397 posts) -

i wasn't sure either way so i looked up some links:

a 1986 study it's only an abstract really, although i'm sure everybody was eager to read hundreds of pages on the subject. from what i could gather, it found that responses to strength training were pretty similar (although men were more capable of getting larger muscles) and responses to cardio were also pretty similar but any discrepancies were traced back to fat distribution.

ny times articles it cites the olympic committee's assessment that testosterone is the primary source of male bodies' advantages, which excludes transgendered people on hormone therapy. however, it also acknowledges rousey's point that there are smaller factors like bone and joint structure that obviously aren't going to be equalized as readily.

#30 Posted by Slow_Show (2153 posts) -

Athletics should be divided by sex not gender. Gender is a social construct while sex is based entirely on the genetic code you were given at conception. ferrari2001

But that's the point: it's not like Fox is some 200+ lbs transvestite trying to pull one over on the UFC, she's been through HRT and as such has lost much of that inherent male physiological advantage. So long as she still has to make weight for her fights it really shouldn't be an issue, otherwise you end up opening a whole new can of worms about what constitutes a "normal" physiology. 

Plus, let's call a spade a spade here: professional sports is rife with PEDs. Because of HRT, Fox might actually be at a disadvantage against a significant portion of fighters. 

#31 Posted by surrealnumber5 (23044 posts) -

Fight in a division according to their chromosomes.  You know, what they really are.

Chutebox
Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome, you would force women with regular lady bodies to compete against big mean MEN, how dare you!
#32 Posted by ghoklebutter (19327 posts) -

Fight in a division according to their chromosomes.  You know, what they really are.

Chutebox
If XX and XY chromosomes define femaleness and maleness, respectively, then what is the sex of someone whose chromosomes are XXY, XXX, XYY, or just an X?
#33 Posted by Jazz_Fan (29516 posts) -

Fight in a division according to their chromosomes.  Chutebox

So the XO XX XY XXX XXY XYY XXXY and XY female XX male leagues!

#34 Posted by ghoklebutter (19327 posts) -

[QUOTE="Chutebox"]Fight in a division according to their chromosomes.  Jazz_Fan

So the XO XX XY XXX XXY XYY XXXY and XY female XX male leagues!

The funny thing is, most people don't even know what their chromosomes are. And yet we place so much importance on chromosomes when it comes to determining someone's sex.
#35 Posted by Jazz_Fan (29516 posts) -

[QUOTE="Jazz_Fan"]

[QUOTE="Chutebox"]Fight in a division according to their chromosomes.  ghoklebutter

So the XO XX XY XXX XXY XYY XXXY and XY female XX male leagues!

The funny thing is, most people don't even know what their chromosomes are. And yet we place so much importance on chromosomes when it comes to determining someone's sex.

I think I have Klinfelter Syndrome cuz my t*ts are amazing.

#36 Posted by ghoklebutter (19327 posts) -

[QUOTE="ghoklebutter"][QUOTE="Jazz_Fan"]

So the XO XX XY XXX XXY XYY XXXY and XY female XX male leagues!

Jazz_Fan

The funny thing is, most people don't even know what their chromosomes are. And yet we place so much importance on chromosomes when it comes to determining someone's sex.

I think I have Klinfelter Syndrome cuz my t*ts are amazing.

lol also I can't believe that word is censored :S
#37 Posted by Eddie-Murphy48 (906 posts) -

If He is (HE IS) a male he should fight with males. Putting wigs on men doesn't make it fair to put them against women in hnd to hand combat unless the women is armed with daggers.

#38 Posted by whipassmt (13948 posts) -

Hormone therapy doesn't reduce or reshape bone mass, right? Doesn't she still have the skeletal structure of a man?

Oleg_Huzwog

I don't think so. I don't think estrogen hormones and loss of testosterone would cause loss of bone matter as regards height, maybe some bone density would be lost, I don't know. I know when estrogen levels in females decline after menopause there is less osteoblast activity and more osteoclast activity which makes it harder for women to add bone density and easy for them to lose it, increasing the risk of osteoporosis.

As far as bone growth as regards height, I think that is pretty much set when the epiphyseal plates close sometime during late puberty (they close earlier in girls than in boys which is why boys are usually taller). From what I understand, the main hormone that influences bone growth is IGF (insulin-like growth factor) which is stimulated by somewhat inaccurately named Human Growth Hormone (HGH), which is actually primarily a metabolic hormone, but before IGF was discovered, it was thought that HGH caused bone growth (when in reality it does so only indirectly).

#39 Posted by sonicare (53448 posts) -

[QUOTE="sonicare"][QUOTE="ghoklebutter"]

Assuming that Fox has gone through hormone replacement therapy, I'm certain that the effects of estradiol, anti-androgens, etc. have rid her of any advantage she may have had prior to HRT. In fact, I know trans* people who have gone through HRT, and they report a significant loss of physical strength after starting the treatment.

ghoklebutter

Not necessarily. Your physical attributes are affected by more than just hormones. Being treated with estrogens do not rid her of ANY advantage. While they may have some physiologic effects, she is still going to have differences compared with a genetic female.

Note that I also mentioned anti-androgens. And this is what androgens do to the body. 

Yes, but you are assuming that those medicines will automatically and unequivocaly remove all physiologic differences between a man and a woman. They don't. Not only do men and women have different levels of hormones, they also have differing anatomy. All of that plays a role in physical performance. Some attributes affected by hormones and some not. You can make a man like a woman, but you cant fully change their body. Not with modern medicine at this time.
#40 Posted by Zeviander (9503 posts) -
There is, technically, no sexual dimorphism in humans (averages don't indicate this). There are men and women who are taller and stronger than the averages for both sexes, so I don't even see why unisex athletics isn't a thing. M-F Transgenders, who are on hormone therapy may be at a disadvantage to a born-woman, who may actually have a higher concentration of testosterone in her system (either from supplements or naturally occurring).
#41 Posted by ghoklebutter (19327 posts) -
[QUOTE="ghoklebutter"]

[QUOTE="sonicare"] Not necessarily. Your physical attributes are affected by more than just hormones. Being treated with estrogens do not rid her of ANY advantage. While they may have some physiologic effects, she is still going to have differences compared with a genetic female.sonicare

Note that I also mentioned anti-androgens. And this is what androgens do to the body. 

Yes, but you are assuming that those medicines will automatically and unequivocaly remove all physiologic differences between a man and a woman. They don't. Not only do men and women have different levels of hormones, they also have differing anatomy. All of that plays a role in physical performance. Some attributes affected by hormones and some not. You can make a man like a woman, but you cant fully change their body. Not with modern medicine at this time.

Testosterone, as the study states, has a very strong influence on physical strength. So even though HRT may not have completely made her strength like an average woman's, it's certainly very close.
#42 Posted by whipassmt (13948 posts) -

[QUOTE="Chutebox"]

Fight in a division according to their chromosomes. You know, what they really are.

ghoklebutter

If XX and XY chromosomes define femaleness and maleness, respectively, then what is the sex of someone whose chromosomes are XXY, XXX, XYY, or just an X?

I do remember seeing some of those chromosomes mentioned in a section in one of my biology textbooks years ago. If I recall correctly people with XXX are females but a little more feminine than normal (i.e. usually shorter and smaller), X is the same as a normal XX female, I think XYY is a male but they tend to be bigger (taller) and stronger than normal males, and I think XXY is a male with a little more feminine features (shorter, smaller, maybe weaker).

#43 Posted by surrealnumber5 (23044 posts) -
[QUOTE="Zeviander"]There is, technically, no sexual dimorphism in humans (averages don't indicate this). There are men and women who are taller and stronger than the averages for both sexes, so I don't even see why unisex athletics isn't a thing. M-F Transgenders, who are on hormone therapy may be at a disadvantage to a born-woman, who may actually have a higher concentration of testosterone in her system (either from supplements or naturally occurring).

women are treated and thought of as china dolls, good to look at, but that is about it. i would have no problems with any sport being gender bias free.
#44 Posted by whipassmt (13948 posts) -

I think the decisions on this type of stuff should be left up to the sports organizations (e.g. NFL, UFC) themselves and their judgment, not government officials and courts.

#45 Posted by kingkong0124 (8710 posts) -

You can't honestly say that someone who was male for their entire life and then became female won't have an advantage over someone who has been a female for their entire life.

I mean, just look at the MMA fighter who had a MTF sex change. How is that fair for the female fighter?

I think people are making the mistake of being too politically correct about this when it's actually very simple. You shouldn't be allowed to compete if you've had a sex change.

airshocker
this is the correct answer to your question
#46 Posted by kingkong0124 (8710 posts) -
I think I have Klinfelter Syndrome cuz my t*ts are amazing.Jazz_Fan
Hilarious joke. Have some compassion you tw@.
#47 Posted by Zaibach (13430 posts) -

Just dont let them compete, problem solved

#48 Posted by whipassmt (13948 posts) -

Assuming that Fox has gone through hormone replacement therapy, I'm certain that the effects of estradiol, anti-androgens, etc. have rid her of any advantage she may have had prior to HRT. In fact, I know trans* people who have gone through HRT, and they report a significant loss of physical strength after starting the treatment.

ghoklebutter

Though I think the effects of the HRT are only temporary. The hormone injections must be sustained, if they are stopped the body starts to revert back to its natural state. For example I remember hearing or reading about a transgendered prisoner who was suing the jail in order to get his estrogen injections continued, he was complaining that with out the injections his breasts were starting to shrink and his penis and testicles were starting to grow.

#49 Posted by Diablo-B (4021 posts) -
I hope transgender athletes get to compete against any gender they choose. I always wanted to be an NBA player but wasn't quite good enough. But if all I have to do is change gender and I can play in the WNBA then the dream is still alive... My reasoning may be selfish.