Homosexuals not that evil after all according to Pope

hey-a! don-a think about-a the banking-a scandals and-a how we are up to our pointy hats in criminal activity with-a the mob-a!

look-a over-a here at-a the funny a-monkey!

looka da monkey!

he-a take-a your mind-a off-a what-a nest of vipers lives in vatican-a city-a!

What I find hilarious is how so many people try to find victory in how "religion is false". And then these same people will go and listen to music made by a songwriter who was born in the late 20th century, and talk about how much that music meant to them.

Of course religion changes. Religion is relevant to society, so it's obviously going to change as society changes. What, would you rather that religion DOESN'T adapt to the times? How is that better?

So basically your whole point is that religious stories are fiction? Okay. Is that supposed to be a bad thing or something? If you and I watch a screening of Old Yeller, and then you start crying, would it be okay to start slapping some sense into you and berating you for being affected by things that are "false"? Something being "false" is kind of an odd criticism to make on a freaking video game forum.

@MrGeezer: faulty analogy

But anyway, yeah. As long as religious folk are being decent folk, who cares what they believe.

Sadly, not everyone is and it has real widespread consequences

Because.............

People who go to watch Old Yeller don't then condemn the people who didn't watch it to hell, disallow them to marry, or knock on strangers doors with hardback editions of the book in hand.

Wis has an issue with people treating it as less than a 'fictional' thing. Mainly the issue is the negative things that happen as a result of those who are less then decent folk l

Seeing it as something that comes from a real but metaphysical origin. Which is different than the response people get from a movie.

The vast majority of religious people don't do that shit either.

Hell, there've already been some non-religious people here complaining about how religious people pick and choose what to follow. How is that a bad thing? That in itself is evidence that an absolute shitload of religious people are perfectly capable of choosing what to keep and what to ignore out of their holy books, which means that what gets kept and what gets ignored is on them, not the religion. I realize that there are exceptions when it comes to extremists, but it seems to be common in civilized society for people to latch onto the relevant parts and disregard the rest. Which is exactly how people treat "Fight Club" or "Stairway to Heaven" or "Bioshock".

I am okay with people updating and choosing beliefs

How is picking-and-choosing a bad thing? Because hypocrisy.

"You're gay, so you're going to hell. Bible says so. But yeah I'll wear all the jewelry, low-cut blouses and pretty make-up I want because I'm either too stupid to read 1Timothy 2:9 (among others) or choose to ignore it."

A hypocrite is the worst type of person. I don't see how you can find any good in that.

And these same people are helping shape public policy through their votes.

Yeah I was actually typing something about that but decided to just stick to the point.

Did I strike a nerve? There's enough strawman in here to fill a farm.

It sounds like your complaint is less about that guy picking and choosing what to follow, and more about the fact that he's choosing to tell someone else that he's going to hell.

My complaint is hypocrisy. If you're going to judge someone else by the standards of your book, you'd damn well better measure up. As I recall, there's actually quite a bit of what I just said in the Bible itself, what with "judge not" and all that. Funny how Xtians seem to forget that bit.

It's not just religious hypocrisy I oppose, but all forms. It's just the religious are pretty blatant about it.

@Aljosa23: I don't see why they get praise for anything.

@Strakha: Religion is exceeding it's altogether.

Actually, a shitload of religious people aren't judgmental at all (or at least no more judgmental than you seem to be towards Christians). How can you call a Christian hypocritical if the "judge not" part IS the part that they choose to follow?

In any case, an asshole is an asshole whether he's a Christian or a Muslim or an atheist. You can stick a judgmental Christian next to a judgmental atheist, and there's no difference. They're both picking and choosing what to believe. The atheist is being judgmental because he likes being judgmental, and the Christian is only using biblical scripture to justify being judgmental because he already likes being judgmental. And they're both being bigger dicks than the Christian who chooses to follow the "judge not" part.

So again, I fail to see how the "picking and choosing" thing is actually a valid complaint. Once you're already picking and choosing what parts to follow, there's nothing stopping you from following the good parts and throwing out the rest. If you choose to follow the bad parts, that's just because you're already an asshole.

But the media says.....

We're not talking about being an asshole. You don't have to be an asshole to be a hypocrite. The two words are nowhere near each other in meaning.

If you're taking your morals from a book you believe to be divinely inspired, and you believe those morals are so because God says, then how can you give any weight to your particular religion as universal doctrine when you personally decide that certain aspects just aren't going to fit with your chosen lifestyle?

If you believe in God, and that The Bible is his divine instructions to us, then it's all-or-nothing. Otherwise, you're not using Biblical scripture to drive your life and your decisions, you're simply applying your morality post-script and simply adopting those scriptures that support your moral view. That's not religion by any definition.

Okay, and...so what? How is that a problem? What does it matter to you how closely somebody is sticking to scripture? I mean, if a Christian is okay totally disregarding this part or that part, then why the hell does it matter to you?

If anything, this is actually a GOOD thing because it gives you a free pass to call someone out on their bullshit whenever they try to use their scripture as an excuse. I mean, if some Christian tries to discriminate against gays and then tries to defend his behavior with "it's not my fault, I'm just doing what my religion demands", now you can instantly call him out on his own prejudices. After all, if he's already comfortable picking and choosing what to follow, then the only reason he's sticking to the anti-gay stuff is because he already is bigoted against gays.

And we're not talking about being an asshole? Really? Because the way I see it, the only reason to care about hypocrisy at all is when it involves some kind of assholish behavior like discriminating against gays or trying to ruin science in schools. And even then, the problem isn't even hypocrisy, the problem is the assholish thing being done. What, would discriminating against gays be okay if it wasn't done hypocritically? If the person isn't being an asshole, and by that I mean treating someone else badly or unfairly discriminating against someone else, then what do you care if they're being a hypocrite?

Oh, I most certainly DOthrow it in their faces. I'm more well-versed in their text than the vast majority of Christians, and I do most definitely spin circles around them until they just bow out.

Hypocrisy is a personality trait I just absolutely cannot respect. Hypocrites are the lowest of narcissistic characters. The whole "Do as I say not as I do thing" has never sat well with me (which is one of the big reasons I distrust authority).

If you don't have the strength of character to live by a code you proclaim as divine and universal, yet can still use that same code to berate others or to attempt to control their decisions by it, then you can go **** yourself (I'm using 'you' in the general sense here, don't get all pissed).

I judge people on their character, and hypocrites are people I put right down there with thieves and backstabbers. It's not just dishonesty, it's manipulation.

Sorry, I cannot respect that. I'm of the "you look a man in the eye when you shake his hand" mold, and I don't stand being jerked around by anyone. Further, I'm not afraid of confrontation and will straight-up call people out on their bullshit.

You sound awfully judgmental for someone who was just criticizing Christians for not adhering to "judge not". You're coming off as pretty hypocritical in this thread.

Also, stop stereotyping. I'm sure you don't like it when Christians stereotype gays in an attempt to portray them as being worse, so stop stereotyping religious people (or even just Christians in particular) as "using that same code to berate others or to attempting to control their decisions by it". You know damn well that a huge number of religious people (or Christians in particular) do no such thing. Granted, some of them do, but that has no bearing on whether or not picking and choosing their morality that is a bad thing. That's what pretty much EVERYONE does, including atheists. And if I get to pick and choose the morality which best suits my lifestyle, then it would be hypocritical to tell a Christian that he shouldn't do the same thing just because he happens to have a Bible.

I just straight-up told you I judge people by their character. Yes, I'm judgmental, good call. *eyeroll*

I don't adhere to a book that says I shouldn't judge, so I'm not being hypocritical in judging. I'm calling Christians out on their hypocrisy because they DO (supposedly) adhere to such a code.

The primary trait of character I am most concerned about is honesty, and if a person can't be honest with himself, how am I to be expected to be treated honestly by them?

If a person picks-and-chooses from the Bible what to follow and what not to, the Bible itself says that these people are hypocrites. So in essence I am judging them by the code they claim to adhere to.

If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person's religion is worthless. -James 1:26

Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God? -Romans 2:3

Bullshit, dude. The fact that people "adhere to a book that says they shouldn't judge" doesn't make it hypocritical if they choose to follow that part because they don't want to be judgmental.

Honesty? Dude, **** off with that. If you valued honesty, you'd admit that you're being just as hypocritical as the people you're calling out for being hypocrites. "Oh, but it's okay for me to be judgmental because I don't follow the Bible." That's a load of horseshit. You're being judgmental and choosing the morality that best suits you, and then calling out religious people for doing the exact same thing. That's called being a goddamn hypocrite. And just like the typical hypocrite, you come up with some reason why you're the exception to the rule, why it's okay for you to do it and not okay for others. That is just basic behavior for a hypocrite, and you're fitting the description perfectly.

I know I'm getting your goat when you start the insults.

If your boss tells you he's going to fire all smokers because they stink, and then goes and lights up a cig, he's a hypocrite. If he says the same and has never touched a cig in his life, how could you call him such?

Have you ever been refused service because you're an atheist? I have. I've lost business deals because some people around here will only do business with a Christian. I've straight-up been asked in business discussions what church I'm a member of. And no, this discrimination is NOT illegal where privately-owned parties are concerned.

You see, there's a difference between calling someone out on something (as I'm doing) and actively trying to impress your faith on others. I don't care where you stick your dick, what demons you summon in your basement or even how many women you have...but I most certainly do care when your 'morality' starts creeping into my business affairs and my personal choices. And if I had kids, I'd be spitting mad at some of the crap that goes on in the schools around here.

Religion runs deep around here, and if you haven't been to these parts, you have no idea how socially unacceptable someone of my persuasion is. Hell, we had churches raise money and petition for signs to be added to the Courthouse. What signs? These:

Seriously? We have a major problem with hunger in this area, kids who don't have clothes or school supplies and women and children with no place to stay (I know, I do quite a bit of volunteering), and this is what they raise money for?

And if you think there was no spite behind doing that, I'll post some messages from the local forum. And trust me, these thoughts weren't just confined to the local forum.

______________________________

Because that's what we were founded on! So that's that! Our nation was founded on Christian values and I'm getting sick in tired if these atheists creaming how they feel offended...they are offending me

______________________________

love it or leave it commie

______________________________

You non-believers better get your shit straight before you end up left behind. You're head comes off just as easy as everyone else that claims they know what's going on. The only difference is your afterlife isn't going to be what you think it'll be.

______________________________

may be some of u lame as librals will get a headcheck now when u go sine up for welfare

______________________________

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Now, seriously...how can I take that shit with a straight face?

Religion around these parts is not a personal choice, it's a social expectation. If you haven't experienced that, then I'm envious. Really, no sarcasm at all.

@br0kenrabbit said:

I know I'm getting your goat when you start the insults.

If your boss tells you he's going to fire all smokers because they stink, and then goes and lights up a cig, he's a hypocrite. If he says the same and has never touched a cig in his life, how could you call him such?

Have you ever been refused service because you're an atheist? I have. I've lost business deals because some people around here will only do business with a Christian. I've straight-up been asked in business discussions what church I'm a member of. And no, this discrimination is NOT illegal where privately-owned parties are concerned.

You see, there's a difference between calling someone out on something (as I'm doing) and actively trying to impress your faith on others. I don't care where you stick your dick, what demons you summon in your basement or even how many women you have...but I most certainly do care when your 'morality' starts creeping into my business affairs and my personal choices. And if I had kids, I'd be spitting mad at some of the crap that goes on in the schools around here.

Religion runs deep around here, and if you haven't been to these parts, you have no idea how socially unacceptable someone of my persuasion is. Hell, we had churches raise money and petition for signs to be added to the Courthouse. What signs? These:

Seriously? We have a major problem with hunger in this area, kids who don't have clothes or school supplies and women and children with no place to stay (I know, I do quite a bit of volunteering), and this is what they raise money for?

And if you think there was no spite behind doing that, I'll post some messages from the local forum. And trust me, these thoughts weren't just confined to the local forum.

______________________________

Because that's what we were founded on! So that's that! Our nation was founded on Christian values and I'm getting sick in tired if these atheists creaming how they feel offended...they are offending me

______________________________

love it or leave it commie

______________________________

You non-believers better get your shit straight before you end up left behind. You're head comes off just as easy as everyone else that claims they know what's going on. The only difference is your afterlife isn't going to be what you think it'll be.

______________________________

may be some of u lame as librals will get a headcheck now when u go sine up for welfare

______________________________

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Now, seriously...how can I take that shit with a straight face?

Religion around these parts is not a personal choice, it's a social expectation. If you haven't experienced that, then I'm envious. Really, no sarcasm at all.

I'm not even saying that you haven't experienced that, I'm saying that that has nothing to do with the specific topic at hand here (that topic being about picking and choosing the parts of the Bible that fit). For every asshole who fits the description you just mentioned...and yes it is about being an asshole rather than being a hypocrite, because that kind of discrimination would be just as bad even if those people did follow the Bible in its entirety and weren't hypocrites....there are Christians who don't do any of that shit. If you have a problem with those kinds of things, then you should WANT people picking and choosing what parts of the Bible to follow so that they DON'T follow the parts of the Bible that are particularly hateful or bigoted.

What's your stance on the Christians who DO exercise love and tolerance, and are compassionate and welcoming to people of other beliefs and sexual orientations? Do you welcome the fact that they follow their religion selectively, because by choosing to ignore the hateful parts of the Bible they end up being better people? Or are you like, "**** whether or not this makes them better people, the fact that they get to pick and choose at all means that their religion is wrong and they're wrong"? Hopefully it's the former rather than the latter. And if so, then your beef is just with a specific kind of religious person rather than the mere fact that religious people get to pick and choose the parts to follow. You have a problem with the Christians who are also bad people. And without the ability of people to adapt their religious experience to better fit the world in which we live, then there wouldn't be Christians who are also good people.

Do I have to preface every instance of 'Christian' with 'most', 'some', or 'many'? Why don't you do this when you speak of Muslims, or Atheists, or Liberals? You and I have had enough back-and-forth over the years that I know your mannerisms on these subjects. Forgive me if I figured you wise enough to figure out the context.

The big denomination around these parts are churches who advertise as "Fundamental, Independent". Here's a quip from one of those churches:

What is true and what is not true? The Bible is God’s Word. Not believing some of the Bible will lead to doubting all the Bible. The Bible is not a collection of human ideas and thoughts. The Bible is God’s Word, given word for word by the Holy Spirit to human writers. If any part of the Bible is merely human thoughts, and not God’s Word, then all of God’s Word can’t be trusted. If it is God’s Word, then all of it is true and is to be believed.

MOST Christians in this area belong to fundamental churches, with a doctrine as above.To become a member of a church you have to confirm your belief in the above.

AND THEN to pick-and-choose? Yes, that's the very definition of a hypocrite. How can you not see that?

And again, I actually agree with the statement above. Not that the Bible is God's inerrant word, but that if you claim to believe in the Bible AS THE DIVINE WORD OF GOD it's all-or-nothing. If you choose the belief that some parts of the Bible are applicable and others aren't, I wouldn't really consider you a Christian (because the Bible doesn't), I'd consider you a hypocrite (because the very Bible you choose to kinda-follow says you are as well).

If you believe the Bible to be divine, then how can it not be perfect? And anything short of that belief is, biblically speaking, heresy.

As I once heard a fiery preacher say, "God hates fence-sitters". And you know, I do, too. Call it or don't, but don't try to play both sides.

Then it sounds to me like you put ideology over results. Which, as far as I'm concerned, makes you just as bad as the asshole Christians you're railing against.

Me? I side with good people, be they atheists, Christians, Muslims, gay, straight, black, or white. If you'd look a good man in the eye and instead act like he's doing something wrong by being a good man, then as far as I'm concerned you're a part of the problem just as much as those asshole Christians are. You're exactly the same as them.

EDIT: And this also marks the point at which I am officially done discussing this with you. This is like trying to convince a homophobe that he's wrong for hating gays, or trying to have a discussion with someone who is trying to provide logical support for why he discriminates against blacks. Ironically, this feels exactly like listening to a Christian try to argue that atheists or gays are evil. And my official stance on those kinds of discussions is that it's not worth my time. So, later. I'll see you in some other topic, I guess, but I refuse to spend another second of my time acting as an audience to someone who's spouting off that kind of hate.

No, my problem is with substance. If you claim something, you should fulfill that claim. It's part of honesty.

I've never claimed I like all people. There are certain personality traits I just don't get along with. One of those happens to be people who talk a walk about shit they don't know. It isn't limited to religion, either. If someone tells me they are knowledgeable in X that I happen to know a thing or two about, and then they start spouting bullshit (happens a lot in the technical field, trust me) then I lose most of my respect for them.

You don't purport to be something you are not. Again: honesty.

If you think there are some goods parts of the Bible (there are) and bad parts (there are), then you can chose to be influenced by the good parts (I am) without ascribing to it religious or divine purpose. This doesn't make you a Christian.

Once you've ascribed divine intent to scripture, then you've backed yourself into a position where you either attempt fulfillment of the requirements or openly defy them in whole or in part in contradiction of the very text you profess to follow. Yes, that's hypocrisy, whether you want to admit it or not.

After reading your posts here I can tell you are NOT well versed.

Try me. :)