Do you believe in rehabilitation or punishment for criminals?

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deactivated-5f9e3c6a83e51

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#1 deactivated-5f9e3c6a83e51
Member since 2004 • 57548 Posts

In regards to criminal justice system. I tend to believe in second chances and such, so I would prefer a system that focuses on rehabilitation. I believe that many people just make bad choices or rash decisions and are decent people at heart. Maybe I'm an optimist, but that's my thoughts. I'd rather them not be condemned for the rest of their lives.

US system seems to be far more weighted toward punishing people. The idea being that strict punishments deter/prevent crime. But the US seems to have crime rates far higher than many nations that are less austere in criminal terms. Granted, the reasons for that are far more complex than just the penalty system, but I'm sure it contributes. What side are you on?

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mattbbpl

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#2 mattbbpl
Member since 2006 • 23010 Posts

I'm open minded to it, frankly, including an optimal mix. Is it better as a deterrent or a rehabilition? Statistically speaking, the death penalty doesn't serve as an effective deterrent while also draining more resources, so at least get rid of that. Beyond that, let's study and look at the outcomes.

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Shottayouth13-

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#3  Edited By Shottayouth13-
Member since 2009 • 7018 Posts

I do believe in rehabilitation. Except for those than have done crimes to warrant them spending the rest of their lives in prison, most criminals are going to be released at some point or another.

It would be more beneficial to society to have these people rehabilitated and educated. Punishment just for the sake of it will only get you so far and no more.

Additionally, I think employers should be less strict on hiring people with criminal records (the leniency would depend on the crime committed). Makes little sense to have people released from prison and can't get a job because of their record. That only leads to repeat offenses and the cycle continues.

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AND1SALTTAPE

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#4  Edited By AND1SALTTAPE
Member since 2015 • 861 Posts

Rehab for petty crimes but punishment for all other crimes. The purpose of justice system is to deliver justice. It is the job of education to keep people civilized and responsible. In a society where all criminals are sent to rehabilitation, people with an inclination towards crime will commit crime without any fear. And I don't think that if you send a murderer to rehab then the relatives of the victim will feel 'satisfied'.

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deactivated-5b1e62582e305

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#5 deactivated-5b1e62582e305
Member since 2004 • 30778 Posts

I don't believe in prison as a form of punishment, so rehabilitation. But generally whatever is most advantageous for society I'll go with. If it benefits society to rehabilitate a convict, I'll go with that. If a convict is unable to be rehabilitated or can't be trusted out in public then lock them away until this changes, to protect society.

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mattbbpl

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#7 mattbbpl
Member since 2006 • 23010 Posts

@magicalclick said:

@sonicare: I believe death penalty should be used [.....] instead of wasting our tax dollars on overpriced lawyers.

Oh, the irony.

The inverse is actually true - it costs more to implement a death sentence than it does to let them spend the rest of their days in prison.

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deactivated-5ebea105efb64

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#9  Edited By deactivated-5ebea105efb64
Member since 2013 • 7262 Posts

Three chance rule.

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mattbbpl

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#10 mattbbpl
Member since 2006 • 23010 Posts

@magicalclick said:

@mattbbpl: You need to watch Judge Dred because you missed what I said.

Oh, you were actually, seriously suggesting implementing comic book Judge Dredd executions?

We're done here.

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#12 Drunk_PI
Member since 2014 • 3358 Posts

Countries that focus on rehab over punishment tend to have less recidivism.

It's not as attractive as "tough on crime" but, from what I gathered, it seems to work.

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#13  Edited By Archangel3371
Member since 2004 • 43998 Posts

Yeah I lean more towards the rehabilitation aspect. In many prisons those that go in just seem to be made into a more hardened criminal and with what sometimes happens in these places it almost seems like a case of cruel and unusual punishment to be sent there.

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#14 foxhound_fox
Member since 2005 • 98532 Posts

Punishment is a waste of resources. At least with rehabilitation there is the potential to create contributing members of society.

However, I don't think this applies in the US. Private prison systems tend to make more money off the more criminals they hold, thus making it a very good business to keep people there as long as possible.

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#15  Edited By Treflis
Member since 2004 • 13757 Posts

You can only choose one?

I think many are mistaking punishment with revenge. Being locked away from family, friends, your normal life and forced to be confined to a cell and required to comply with orders is Punishment. Being removed from society is punishment.

To give a simplified example, it's like when your kid misbehaves and is grounded for a set amount of time. They can't hang out with friend, They might not have access to entertainment, they might even be confined to their room and only socialize with the parents and siblings during meals or otherwise.

But at some point during the punishment, they also is informed on why they are being punished and has the time to reflect on what they do. Possibly with the help of the parents so they learn and won't repeat it. If they don't then they're grounded again.

Same applies to inmates, unless they are in there for the rest of their life then they will one day be released back into society. Isn't it better that the inmate is rehabilitated and given a good chance to be a normal decent member of the society? Rather then a more hardened criminal with little to zero chance to achieve the same goal and is more likely to repeat a life of crime and jail visits?

Frankly, which one of those two former inmates would you rather have as a neighboor?

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#16 HoolaHoopMan
Member since 2009 • 14724 Posts

@magicalclick said:

@mattbbpl: You need to watch Judge Dred because you missed what I said.

Judge Dredd is set in a dystopian future. Really?

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#17 mrbojangles25
Member since 2005 • 58159 Posts

There are very few crimes I feel warrant a punishment-only consequence. Most crimes deserve some sort of punishment (fine, jail time, house arrest, etc.) to a certain extent, but for the most part I think proper rehabilitation should be the focus.

I think by now we all know that prison time for non-violent offenders, and even minor violent offenders, only makes things worse; they go in for selling weed, they come out 10x worse. Sadly, in the US at least, prisons are a business so there is no incentive for prison reform; too many people make too much money off of prisons. What's worse, the kind of rehabilitation we need to see costs money.

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#18  Edited By MirkoS77
Member since 2011 • 17640 Posts

My answer entirely depends if I'm answering from an emotional perspective, or a practical, logical, and utilitarian one. This varies from day to day. I mostly always tend towards vengeance and retribution, though I struggle to present and hold any compelling argument for it. Oftentimes I simply want to let people rot who have literally destroyed the lives of others. Do I care that it's non-productive? Or not economical or moral? No. These are of no consideration.

I suppose some of that feeling stems from the fact that I don't consider punitive means to be useless. People grow in suffering, and it is not pointless or serves no function. They have the opportunity to understand and discover remorse. Hardship is an excellent edifier.

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#19  Edited By Gaming-Planet
Member since 2008 • 21064 Posts

Terrorists and serial killers/rapists should get capital punishment if there is enough solid evidence.

Prisons in the US are set up for profit and slave labor. I think there should be rehabilitating programs in prison that isn't only for children.

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#20 HoolaHoopMan
Member since 2009 • 14724 Posts

@Gaming-Planet said:

Terrorists and serial killers/rapists should get capital punishment if there is enough solid evidence.

Solid, as put forward by the state. So wonderful of you.

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#21 pook99
Member since 2014 • 915 Posts

rehab for most low level crimes committed by uneducated people (prostitution, drug use/dealing, non violent robberies etc)

Swift and harsh punishment for violent criminals (murderers, rapists, pedo's, completely favor the death penalty/castration and other severe punishments for these scumbags)

Jail time and financial punishment for white collar crimes (ie Madoff, martha stewart etc)

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#22  Edited By BalaminienBGS
Member since 2016 • 68 Posts

For me I tend to favor rehabilitating the criminals, then again I am biased, having discovered I have a couple mental issues that weren't highlighted til this year (less serious, more debilitating) I'm in a way myself being rehabilitated and I can tell you it could mean something to someone to be shown a kind of investment like that.

In regard to the "worse of the worse", I could never condone capital punishment even in the most clear cut cases, instead experimentation with theories that could lead to advancements in medicine or psychology. Killing them can't be relied upon for satisfaction due to fact that there could be circumstances where the process of acquiring a personal justice or vengeance on behalf of the victims or the victim's friends and family becomes contradictory. Say for instance where a Serial Killer believing he's gotten himself a ticket to Heaven in his mind, looks forward to dying and reaping his reward and depending on the state, he's being put to sleep essentially. The suffering isn't equal (if it's about making them suffering) and if the choice is then picking a more painful execution then I would point out that it eventually ends, because it's an execution. With a program to take drugs or to experiment on theories with extensive care therapy and treatment, you could break their legs to then help mend them or use a drug that hasn't been approved yet (though it's promising) and albeit not being a substantial sample group to work with.

In the end I'm not even big on that idea either, but to return to rehabilitation, I think it's key to remember that our laws are the reactive side of a continued struggle to come to terms with what humans can be. The greatest thing to have begun coming to how we deal with breaches of each society's social contract has been our proactive approaches and understanding of the variables at play and in my eyes rehabilitation is the more optimistic nature of humanity refusing to ever give up on itself. Losing one person in a manslaughter case with a petty thief turned reckless driver, sees another life on the line, the thief is about to spend time in a worse place he has ever seen, but this prison has just given a green light for an rehabilitation program aimed at a mix of therapy and skill exploration. That man and another could find an idea there that promises something more potent to them then maybe just going back into the same cycle, a sense of freedom or hope even if no one other than the counselor and program organizer believes they deserve it, because they are still a sample of humanity hanging in the balance.

A life still not lost, does not replace the life lost due to it and that is why we bring them to answer for it and declare it a crime. If the person is a Serial Killer, we still witness a human and no, we don't get the luxury to paint a picture of ourselves that suits our image, but see what could be a grandson, a granddaughter, a brother or a sister (given a genetic disposition to a mental illness, or a life that lead to a disorder). Now if one day after the hard work that we humans do, for the things that stem from a passionate place, leads to a treatment that puts empathy in a Serial Killer, then we have saved 1 of possibly 6 lives lost. Not just that either, but the lives that could be lost but saved with the preventive therapy as well if just before the breach into the unreturnable lives lost.

In closing someone might want to put me in the shoes of a person who would lose a loved one and have me reflect on the comfortable position I'm speaking high and mighty from and if their goal was to have me see that I'd want that same justice I am so keen on taking away from real victims ... well they would be right... I would want that Killer dead, except ... why do i want him dead? He wanted my love dead, but unlike me, he wouldn't have the blessing from society to do it. Saving a Serial Killer, is saving the serial killer in ourselves, humanity ... we have all of history to know we know how to punish, but rehabilitation we have only begun to take a crack at. Rehabilitation is us saving ourselves from ourselves. I think humanity needs that. We then paint our image.

Damn dexedrine .... I went and wrote an essay.

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#23 Blueresident87
Member since 2007 • 5903 Posts

I believe in rehabilitation, but not after a certain point. Once there is any sort of pattern, something else needs to be done.

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#24 darklight4
Member since 2009 • 2094 Posts

For minor crimes rehabilitation is possible but for more violent crimes stick them in an arena and make them fight. Televise it, get some sponsors and make some money it'll be bigger than UFC.

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#25 bmanva
Member since 2002 • 4680 Posts

It's a nice thought, but unfortunately in practical application rehabilitation approach in government bureaucracy hands results in what amounts to a revolving door in our criminal justice system.

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#26 KEND0_KAP0NI
Member since 2016 • 1231 Posts

I believe in labor camps...

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#27 stuff238
Member since 2012 • 3284 Posts

Less time for drug crimes. It is insane that I hear stories of people going to jail because they had 20 pills of ecstacy.

I would fight that so hard. What is so hard to believe about someone with 20 pills would do it for personal use? Instead you get 20 years for "trafficing a whatever substance".

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deactivated-5cf0a2e13dbde

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#28 deactivated-5cf0a2e13dbde
Member since 2005 • 12935 Posts

Less jail time for drug crimes and other petty misdemeanors, give these people a set amount of public service, like planting trees, picking up roadside garbage, etc. Teach people the value of helping others within society, rather than walling them off in a cage, and screwing them up for when the reenter society.

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#29 Byshop  Moderator
Member since 2002 • 20504 Posts

@drunk_pi said:

Countries that focus on rehab over punishment tend to have less recidivism.

It's not as attractive as "tough on crime" but, from what I gathered, it seems to work.

This. My instinct is punishment but looking at other countries that do much better than us in this department they focus much more on rehabilitation.

-Byshop

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#30 Maroxad
Member since 2007 • 23813 Posts

As Byshop said.

There is enough evidence to show that Rehabilitation leads to superior results over punishment.

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#32 fenriz275
Member since 2003 • 2379 Posts

Depends on the crime. Rehabilitating rapists, pedophiles, and serial killers is probably a waste of time. Drug dealers and thieves maybe not.

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horgen

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#33 horgen  Moderator
Member since 2006 • 127492 Posts

@Byshop said:
@drunk_pi said:

Countries that focus on rehab over punishment tend to have less recidivism.

It's not as attractive as "tough on crime" but, from what I gathered, it seems to work.

This. My instinct is punishment but looking at other countries that do much better than us in this department they focus much more on rehabilitation.

-Byshop

Convince people that letting Breivik be a free man is a good idea...

Though it is one man that people are conflicted about. For thousand of others, it has worked without many problems. There are companies that focus on hiring people with a criminal record. Made by people who got a criminal record and know that some will change, want to change, however that it is incredible difficult to get a normal job when you got a criminal record.

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#34 Byshop  Moderator
Member since 2002 • 20504 Posts

@horgen said:
@Byshop said:
@drunk_pi said:

Countries that focus on rehab over punishment tend to have less recidivism.

It's not as attractive as "tough on crime" but, from what I gathered, it seems to work.

This. My instinct is punishment but looking at other countries that do much better than us in this department they focus much more on rehabilitation.

-Byshop

Convince people that letting Breivik be a free man is a good idea...

Though it is one man that people are conflicted about. For thousand of others, it has worked without many problems. There are companies that focus on hiring people with a criminal record. Made by people who got a criminal record and know that some will change, want to change, however that it is incredible difficult to get a normal job when you got a criminal record.

In the US, yeah, but I suspect that in countries based on rehabilitation I'm guessing it's not nearly as hard. Even the conflict over Breivik's sentence seems to be more from people in the US rather than Norway. But the US has the highest prison population of any country in the world, even though it's the third largest country by population. Even per capita we have the second highest prison population in the world. Our recidivism rates are very high as well. The prison population in the US is roughly equivalent to the population of the entire city of Chicago. When you look at this data and compare our current criminal justice system to countries like Norway, it's hard not to think that we could be doing a lot better.

But even taking Breivik as a specific example, it's not like a more rehab based approach means turning terrorists or nutjobs loose on the street. He got 21 years, which is the maximum base sentence allowed in Norway unless you are literally Hitler (war crimes and genocide can get a longer sentence but that's pretty much it). But that's just his base sentence. It's not like here where the sentence represents the maximum amount of time you spend in prison (assuming you don't commit more crimes). If they don't think he's rehabilitated by the end of those 21 years, they'll keep stacking on additional 5 year sentences until they are sure he's no longer a threat and can be released or he dies in prison. Based on his unrepentant attitude towards his crimes today, the expectation is that it'll be the latter.

-Byshop

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deactivated-5985f1128b98f

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#35  Edited By deactivated-5985f1128b98f
Member since 2007 • 1914 Posts

How about a two tier system.

When convicted of your first crime, you go to a prison with a school, a library, a Vo-Tech, etc. etc. This is society giving you a chance to rehabilitate yourself and rejoin society as a productive member.

When convicted of your second crime, you go to the nasty prison with no amenities, a constant schedule of hard labor, and a steady diet of bland, but nutritional food.

I'm sure there could be a few exceptions, on either side of those rules, but I believe we can be gracious enough as a society to give someone who, perhaps, got a rough start in life, and resorted to crime, a chance to better themselves. BUT, once you've been given that chance, and you choose to return to crime, society owes you nothing, and you will now be punished.

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horgen

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#36 horgen  Moderator
Member since 2006 • 127492 Posts

@Byshop said:

In the US, yeah, but I suspect that in countries based on rehabilitation I'm guessing it's not nearly as hard. Even the conflict over Breivik's sentence seems to be more from people in the US rather than Norway. But the US has the highest prison population of any country in the world, even though it's the third largest country by population. Even per capita we have the second highest prison population in the world. Our recidivism rates are very high as well. The prison population in the US is roughly equivalent to the population of the entire city of Chicago. When you look at this data and compare our current criminal justice system to countries like Norway, it's hard not to think that we could be doing a lot better.

But even taking Breivik as a specific example, it's not like a more rehab based approach means turning terrorists or nutjobs loose on the street. He got 21 years, which is the maximum base sentence allowed in Norway unless you are literally Hitler (war crimes and genocide can get a longer sentence but that's pretty much it). But that's just his base sentence. It's not like here where the sentence represents the maximum amount of time you spend in prison (assuming you don't commit more crimes). If they don't think he's rehabilitated by the end of those 21 years, they'll keep stacking on additional 5 year sentences until they are sure he's no longer a threat and can be released or he dies in prison. Based on his unrepentant attitude towards his crimes today, the expectation is that it'll be the latter.

-Byshop

Yeah they can add to his sentence. But I doubt they really will add that much. He will be an example of how much we(I'm Norwegian if you don't already know) trust our rehabilitation system in 10-15 years. He might not show any sign of changing or regret yet (actually he has shown some signs on changing, but not in a way that will benefit him... yet). However give him another 10-15 years and things probably will change.

If he is considered rehabilitated I expect to see him released. I don't want this single guy to change that system for something worse.

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SolidSnake35

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#37 SolidSnake35
Member since 2005 • 58971 Posts

Blast them onto the Moon to mine for minerals.

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#39 MrGeezer
Member since 2002 • 59765 Posts

Thinking about it pragmatically, I think that it's obviously better to rehabilitate people who are eventually going to be released.

I mean, it's one thing if a person is serving a life sentence with no possibility of parole (or if they're on death row). While I'm all for humane treatment regardless of who we're dealing with, I can at least UNDERSTAND the argument that "this person will never be released, so it's not worth wasting resources trying to rehabilitate them when we could be focusing on other people."

But prisoners who ARE going to be released? Someone who is serving a 10-20 year sentence and may get out earlier on parole? It just seems absolute LUNACY to turn that person into a worse person than he was when he went in, and all for the point of "punishment". If he's gonna get out, then YES the focus should be on rehabilitation so that he's less likely to turn to crime once he's free. I mean, you might start a fistfight with some random asshole at a bar, but you'd be pretty stupid to start some shit with someone who knows where you live and is free to turn up at any time and get back at you because you decided to kick his ass.

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horgen

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#40 horgen  Moderator
Member since 2006 • 127492 Posts

Locking this old thread