ANOTHER theater shooting in the gun country...

Bad thing that every public street leading to the theater was a guns allowed zone.

Bad thing that thanks to the gun lobby, you can literally buy a gun at a garage sale or any other private sale with no background check and no questions asked, with nothing but the honor system stopping felons, criminals, etc. Not surprising that a gun is used is more than 80% of murders.

You really shouldn't make blanket assumptions.....

I never do, but you just did by assuming I do...

Your post was one giant assumption.

Yeah this is pretty big elephant in the room that no one really even talks about.. Not only is it ignored but it is stigmatized and seen as a excuse or that your weak over being a actual concern.. Meanwhile over 100k soldiers have committed suicide since 1999, just over 5000 have died during that time period in actual combat..

.... What difference would that make if the weapon was concealed on the person? Would you have the police frisk everybody that walks by them to ensure they are not carrying a weapon? Metal detectors every where we go?

That's outside the context of the discussion. The specific cases of mass killing is rare in the scale of all homicide in the US.

Like renevent stated, it's not the love or passion of guns but rather what it represents. In the most basic sense, gun is representation of power, and Americans culture is one that's based on power of individuals. This is why zombie and post apocalypse subject matters are so popular in the US; the collapse of community and survival of the individual.

What is relevant? What is exactly the issue and your point? Mass shooting is a tiny faction of overall gun related homicide, which in term is a small faction of overall death annually in the US. It's sounds like you are arguing about how treat a paper cut on a person that just had his arm cut off. Unless you're arguing for an outright ban of all guns which isn't constitutionally legal, how would you change the law to effectively prevent those insane individuals from obtaining the guns without restricting another's 2nd amendment rights?

Uh, no. The FBI tracks these things. It's on the Interwebs.

How about just strict punishments with mandatory jail time for people who are caught. The message will get around and most of it will stop happening. That's kind of how every other law works...

lol. I just read 5 replies from you and each was dumber than the next.

Dude, this is right up there with "I went to the jerk store and they were out of you."

More like 69%....but why let specifics get in the way of your ideology. FBI Expanded Homicide Data Table 8 if you care ot research next time you feel like coughing up a random stat out of your ass.

So let me get this straight...you rather people be killed with a weapon other than a firearm? America has a violence problem, not a gun problem.

And I doubt many gang members are getting their guns at garage sales these days. You see, this is another stupid ideological gun control rant. You don't even know how many weapons used in murders were purchased in such a manner, do you? I do know the last study done on this showed about 40% of inmates said they obtained their firearm through illegal means. Guess how many will obtain them through illegal means if you try to take them all away? 100%. Wow, you just really solved that problem huh?

So your first solution is to change the #1 murder weapon in the U.S. to something you find more pleasing, your second solution is to make it so criminals only get firearms through illegal means. Awesome job bro. You accomplished nothing.

I second it. I own my gun for one thing, self-defense to protect my family in case anyone decides to do them harm. I love my gun as much as I love my fire extinguisher, both I hope I never need to use, but just in case I have them.

Oh and don't point out the hypocrisy of my avatar, it is just there to piss people like you off.

Cut the quotes so I don't keep getting notifications of the two of you arguing. Thank you.

The way people scream about this subject you would expect it to say "Homicide Firearm" across the top of the list. Amazing! Always an interesting fact that more people kill themselves with guns than they do others. But I supposed you are all out to save them too right? lol. Maybe get rid of ropes and bridges too....

Why not just make it a really strict punishment for killing? That would stop all the murders! Let's make them stay in jail for life....or even put them to death! If only we had laws like that for people to follow. Sigh.

@vfibsux said:

So according to this we have a gun problem. Not the biggest problem, though we were aware of that, but a problem nevertheless. Problems are worth working on wouldn't you agree?

@ariabed said:

@chaoscougar1 said:

@MrGeezer said:

@chaoscougar1 said:

@davillain- said:

To be fair, anywhere in the world can happen in a split seconds. And next time OP, don't assume guns kill people. People kill people, simple as that.

Yes

In America and Chile

Three gun related murders per 100,000 people. THREE.

So can we stop freaking out? Even if that murder rate is higher than for the rest of "the developed world", it's still so low that your chances of getting murdered by gun are EXTREMELY fucking low.

That's not to say that the USA doesn't have a problem with gun related crime, I'm saying that it's just stupid to promote this kind of hyperbole about the USA being like the gun totin' wild west where anyone stands a good chance of getting shot to death at any time. Gun related murders are rare even in the USA.

lol

You know you're fucked when you're about 6x more likely to be shot in the US than the rest of the developed world

But still think its OK cause "its only 3"

How many mass shootings is it gonna take or what does the firearm homicide rate have to be before it becomes not OK?

Like when will it reach a point and you all go

Hm

Maybe we do need to change something

Rather than constant arguing and bickering from both sides

Nothing actually being accomplished

Then another incident happens and we start the debate again

Dude you can't even get these guys to admit there is an issue let alone talk about changing things for the better.

What we are debating isn't admission of the issue. There's a crime and violence problem in the US. The debate is on whether the changes people are proposing is in fact changing things for the better. The whole blame on guns is started in the 1930s after gangland violence that resulted, ironically, from another attempt by the government to restrict something else, prohibition. Since then second amendment rights have been eroding. There's been multiple compromises made in the name of "changing things for the better" but with nothing to show for. If you keep taking a medicine but condition isn't improving and a doctor recommend higher dosage of the same, how long would it take for you to change doctor and try something else?

What's your point? There's "nothing but the honor system stopping" (and deterrence of legal punishment) most criminal acts. And the fact that gun is used in 69% of all homicide (not the 80% you pulled out of your ass) is irrelevant since you made no effort to distinguish whether the guns used in homicide are legally or illegally obtained.

@chaoscougar1 said:

@davillain- said:

To be fair, anywhere in the world can happen in a split seconds. And next time OP, don't assume guns kill people. People kill people, simple as that.

Yes

In America and Chile

To be fair, that's 3 per 100,000 people compared to 1 per 100,000 people. There's also a major gang issue in the US that contributes greatly to that number. Guns certainly dont make the country safer, but it's not like the chance of dying by gun in the country is very high.

Misrepresenting the purpose of laws is one of the dumbest fallacies one could commit.

Misrepresentation of data. The data represents MURDERS, not HOMICIDES. FBI Expanded Homicide data table 8. Why do gun nuts always have to obfuscate things to try to prove their points, committing fallacies and misrepresenting data?

@vfibsux said:

The way people scream about this subject you would expect it to say "Homicide Firearm" across the top of the list. Amazing! Always an interesting fact that more people kill themselves with guns than they do others. But I supposed you are all out to save them too right? lol. Maybe get rid of ropes and bridges too....

You are committing the fallacy of the Straw man. I never advocated for getting rid of guns. Why, when gun nuts perceive an attack against their precious toys do they always accuse others of wanting to ban guns? It really just solidifies your position as being one from irrationality.

Not kidding. Most of us don't murder, steal, rape because of strict laws against these. If all of these were not illegal they would be happening a hell of a lot more.

Ok cool but i don't think its hyperbole, i mean i haven't read through all the comments but i don't think anyone is exaggerating the amount of gun homicides or mass shootings to bolster their aguments. I think what makes the problem seem more substantial to anyone outside the US is, the fact that America suffers with these tragic events a hell of alot more than any other well developed civillised country And so we ask ourselves why? And what can be done? Why isn't it being done?

To me it seems slightly unsettling and odd to hear Americans saying "oh its a rare event considering so its not worth doing anything about it or even discussing it". Yes there are other things that may cause more deaths i.e. car accidents cancer smoking drinking drugs etc, but i'm sure those problems are being addressed, i dont feel this issue is being addressed at all, its being swept under the rug. Every time there is a mass shooting your president says the same thing, this is bad and shouldn't be happening bla bla bla" but then nothing gets done it, just shows your presidents have no real power i guess.

I honestly (and i'm sorry to say this) dont think anything can be done about this issue, i think its far too late, i dont think even totally banning guns would help, banning guns would probably cause more trouble than its worth.

I'm no where near knowledgeable enough to even think of a solution, i was thinking is it true that most if not all mass shootings in US happen in gun free zones? If so then maybe not having gun free zones might be the answer but even as i type that it sounds ridiculous. I do hope that something eventually can be done eventually.

You are committing the straw man fallacy again. That is not my position.

I won't speak for anyone else, but this is exactly what I mean. Though for me it's less about "work on the bigger problems first", because I tend to believe that people can generally tackle more than one problem at once.

But yes, my point is to think of realistic solutions. And before coming up with a realistic solution, we first have to have a realistic understanding of the problem. Hyperbole doesn't help in that regard. It's like back when the media was stirring up a panic about the "bird flu" or ebola. Sure, it's a problem that there's an epidemic, but freaking out and exaggerating the extent of the problem just leads to silly bullshit that does nothing to actually help.

What misrepresentation?

https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/crime-in-the-u.s.-2013/tables/table-20/table_20_murder_by_state_types_of_weapons_2013.xls

Total MURDER = 12,253
Total MURDER by firearms = 8,454

In case simple math is beyond your obviously limited mental capacity, that's 69% almost exactly. So where is the link for your bullshit 80% figure?

Speak for yourself, I don't murder, steal, rape not because of the law, it's because it's morally wrong something I think "most of us" would agree with. Law isn't an one way street; it's a social contract that only works when majority of the citizens agree with it. Again failure of prohibition is the perfect example of this. With American culture the way it is you will never be able to convince majority of your personal (uninformed) opinion on firearms.

Your position is pretty clear; I don't see anyway of misinterpreting what you stated:

You have a hard time with words. The data represents MURDERS, not HOMICIDES.

No one is accusing any specific individual of this. Again, you respond from a position of emotion, making no sense.

Still going strong with the straw man. If you still can't figure it out, next time I check the forums, I'll explain it to you, if you want. In the meantime, read what he wrote, read what I wrote, then try to figure it out. Hint: the word primary.

That's the only statistics from FBI. Unless you want to include justifiable homicides which doesn't exactly support your point. And we are still not seeing ANY link for this 80% figure. Bottomline is until you provide one, your 80% claim is bullshit.

You did. Again your statement is pretty clear cut. What was your point in stating "most of us don't murder, steal, rape because of strict laws against these"?

What's so emotional and nonsensical about what I posted? If any one is making the emotional appeal, it's you; you often make random claims and throw around accusations without the slightest attempt to expound or support your point with creditable sources.

What exactly is the proper context that prompted you to claim that "most of us don't murder, steal, rape because of strict laws against these"?

Actually, I was ridiculing the mental illness premise and how it's only reserved for White American terrorists gunmen.

Well, mass shooters are predominately white and male (with the exceptions of VAtech and naval yard shooters). I guess you can make the argument that religious fanatics are mentally ill as well but I think that's opening whole other can of worms.

... Well come on, the guy's wife had a restraining order from the guy and said that he was becoming increasingly paranoid and mentally unstable.... Who gives a crap whether this guy is called a terrorist or a murderer, your still going to be a murderer.. At least this way we can actually start talking about mental illness in the country, something that is largely ignored to downright demonized....

Timothy McVeigh was a white man and was labelled as a terrorist after the Oklahoma City bombing. When someone willingly and intentionally kills people based on their ideology, they often get the label as a terrorist. A lot of these isolated shooters have been people with known histories of mental illness. While they may not be classified as "insane" by the courts, they obviously have serious mental pathology. The guy that shot up that Colorado theater and the guy that killed all those kids in Conneticut weren't doing it for political points or religous dogma.

Yeh lets avoid demonizing fellow white mass murderers by calling them mentally ill, and in the process making mental illness the hot topic, yet black people protesting serious injustices are villified to the highest degree, nice. Not to mention hmmm i wonder how many mentally ill black people there are in the US still very few if any of them find themselves in a situation where they have shot and killed a number of innocent civillians.

Some people are just plain evil.

@chaoscougar1: wonder what your cute chart would look like if it didn't seperate the EU, hm