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#1 Posted by Storm_Marine (10767 posts) -

Can you guys tell me why you're still arming Egypt?

www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/dec/6/muslim-brotherhood-inherits-us-war-gear/

Why Egypt needs and deserves M1A1 tanks and F16s...?

And what other military rival Egypt has in the region besides Israel (also supplied by the US).....?

#2 Posted by thebest31406 (3323 posts) -

Can you guys tell me why you're still arming Egypt?

www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/dec/6/muslim-brotherhood-inherits-us-war-gear/

Why Egypt needs and deserves M1A1 tanks and F16s...?

And what other military rival Egypt has in the region besides Israel (also supplied by the US).....?

Storm_Marine
It's a US client state that runs the ME in the interest of the US.
#3 Posted by Jackc8 (8500 posts) -

The rest of the countries in that area buy their arms from Russia.

Can you tell me why Russia is still supplying arms to Syria?

#4 Posted by GazaAli (22503 posts) -
You know sh!t indeed. If you get to actually know the Muslim Brotherhood you will realize that they are more than willing to be U.S's b!tch and get in return power and authority in the region. Muslim Brotherhood is a pure political party, a sh!tty one that is. They just use religious speech to influence dumb masses.
#5 Posted by sexyweapons (5302 posts) -

So they can develop them or something...

#6 Posted by KingKinect (540 posts) -

Arming muslim brotherhood Egypt and Israel just seems like good business to me. The more paranoid they get of each other the more sales and $.

#7 Posted by ZX81plus3 (174 posts) -

Arming muslim brotherhood Egypt and Israel just seems like good business to me. The more paranoid they get of each other the more sales and $.

KingKinect
That's evil. Have you ever seen the film Lord of War?
#8 Posted by airshocker (29028 posts) -

I didn't know we as a country are held accountable for our government's actions.

Why don't you write a letter to congress and ask them yourself?

#9 Posted by GazaAli (22503 posts) -

I didn't know we as a country are held accountable for our government's actions.

Why don't you write a letter to congress and ask them yourself?

airshocker
:lol: you elect them after all.
#10 Posted by airshocker (29028 posts) -

:lol: you elect them after all.GazaAli

So just because we elect them we are responsible for them? What happened to people being responsible for their own actions? We don't prosecute the voters when one of their representatives are indicted for a crime. How is this any different?

#11 Posted by jimkabrhel (15417 posts) -

You're asking OT American to explain the policy of decades of politicians and heads of state?

Good luck with that.

#12 Posted by KingKinect (540 posts) -

[QUOTE="KingKinect"]

Arming muslim brotherhood Egypt and Israel just seems like good business to me. The more paranoid they get of each other the more sales and $.

ZX81plus3

That's evil. Have you ever seen the film Lord of War?

It's not Lord of War, it's "Warlord". If you didn't understand that reference yes I have seen it. It's the one with the hot hookers he can't bang because he might get aids :( Personally I would have taken my chances.

#13 Posted by sSubZerOo (43064 posts) -

[QUOTE="GazaAli"] :lol: you elect them after all.airshocker

So just because we elect them we are responsible for them? What happened to people being responsible for their own actions? We don't prosecute the voters when one of their representatives are indicted for a crime. How is this any different?

The difference is this.. This wasn't some random crime, this was typical US policy that really hasn't changed for 40 years.. Hell yes you can blame the voter for this because this has been going on for so long.. This isn't just some random event that took every one by surprise, this is long standing policy..

#14 Posted by airshocker (29028 posts) -

The difference is this.. This wasn't some random crime, this was typical US policy that really hasn't changed for 40 years.. Hell yes you can blame the voter for this because this has been going on for so long.. This isn't just some random event that took every one by surprise, this is long standing policy..

sSubZerOo

Until voters can be held accountable for the crimes of politicians your point is invalid.

#15 Posted by tagyhag (15867 posts) -
Money is money. You think the government actually gives a sh*t about people?
#16 Posted by sSubZerOo (43064 posts) -

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

The difference is this.. This wasn't some random crime, this was typical US policy that really hasn't changed for 40 years.. Hell yes you can blame the voter for this because this has been going on for so long.. This isn't just some random event that took every one by surprise, this is long standing policy..

airshocker

Until voters can be held accountable for the crimes of politicians your point is invalid.

This isn't a crime though, this is long standing US policy..

#17 Posted by airshocker (29028 posts) -

This isn't a crime though, this is long standing US policy..

sSubZerOo

Same principle. US voters cannot be held accountable for what elected politicians do. An individual is responsible for their own actions.

#18 Posted by GazaAli (22503 posts) -

[QUOTE="GazaAli"] :lol: you elect them after all.airshocker

So just because we elect them we are responsible for them? What happened to people being responsible for their own actions? We don't prosecute the voters when one of their representatives are indicted for a crime. How is this any different?

Isn't that the whole point of a representative democracy? We can't have all people involved in decision making so we let them elect few people to represent them in governance and policy making. Being indicted for a crime is irrelevant to one's political career, its only relevant to his/her personal life. Another point is I'd buy into your "voters are not responsible for the actions of the representatives they elected" argument if those voters where somehow deceived to elect them once. But these people keep getting reelected over and over and you'd expect voters to have enough responsibility/maturity to elect some decent people.
#19 Posted by Verge_6 (20282 posts) -

The rest of the countries in that area buy their arms from Russia.

Can you tell me why Russia is still supplying arms to Syria?

Jackc8
Shush, OT runs on hilariously idealistic mindsets and double-standards. You know that, don't go disrupting the MO.
#20 Posted by airshocker (29028 posts) -

Isn't that the whole point of a representative democracy? We can't have all people involved in decision making so we let them elect few people to represent them in governance and policy making. Being indicted for a crime is irrelevant to one's political career, its only relevant to his/her personal life. Another point is I'd buy into your "voters are not responsible for the actions of the representatives they elected" argument if those voters where somehow deceived to elect them once. But these people keep getting reelected over and over and you'd expect voters to have enough responsibility/maturity to elect some decent people.GazaAli

Yes, it is. So how can a voter be responsible for their representative if they are not responsible for the crimes of those representatives? It makes no sense. You can't cherry pick just because it suits you. It's either all, or nothing.

#21 Posted by Wasdie (49619 posts) -

Because they pay for them?

We'll sell too anybody who will pay for them. Otherwise they'll just go buy weapons from Russia. We would rather have their money.

All of the major weapons the US and Russia exports are always the "export" version of them. Neither the US or Russia ever sells their standard military equipment. As a rule of thumb you never sell somebody a weapon that is better than your own.

#22 Posted by GazaAli (22503 posts) -

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

This isn't a crime though, this is long standing US policy..

airshocker

Same principle. US voters cannot be held accountable for what elected politicians do. An individual is responsible for their own actions.

So why do people elect politicians? I'm not saying people should be persecuted for their representatives' crimes/poor decisions, but on a political level voters will have to face the repercussions of their elected politicians' policies and decisions. That's why people overthrow governments and why Americans right now are blaming Obama, Bush..etc for the economy. seriously :?
#23 Posted by airshocker (29028 posts) -

So why do people elect politicians? I'm not saying people should be persecuted for their representatives' crimes/poor decisions, but on a political level voters will have to face the repercussions of their elected politicians' policies and decisions. That's why people overthrow governments and why Americans right now are blaming Obama, Bush..etc for the economy. seriously :?GazaAli

That is exactly what you're saying. There's no middle-ground here.

#24 Posted by GazaAli (22503 posts) -

[QUOTE="GazaAli"]Isn't that the whole point of a representative democracy? We can't have all people involved in decision making so we let them elect few people to represent them in governance and policy making. Being indicted for a crime is irrelevant to one's political career, its only relevant to his/her personal life. Another point is I'd buy into your "voters are not responsible for the actions of the representatives they elected" argument if those voters where somehow deceived to elect them once. But these people keep getting reelected over and over and you'd expect voters to have enough responsibility/maturity to elect some decent people.airshocker

Yes, it is. So how can a voter be responsible for their representative if they are not responsible for the crimes of those representatives? It makes no sense. You can't cherry pick just because it suits you. It's either all, or nothing.

When a voter votes for a politician, s/he does so based on their political beliefs and expectations. They do not elect politicians for their morality, sexual orientation...etc
#25 Posted by GazaAli (22503 posts) -

[QUOTE="GazaAli"]So why do people elect politicians? I'm not saying people should be persecuted for their representatives' crimes/poor decisions, but on a political level voters will have to face the repercussions of their elected politicians' policies and decisions. That's why people overthrow governments and why Americans right now are blaming Obama, Bush..etc for the economy. seriously :?airshocker

That is exactly what you're saying. There's no middle-ground here.

ok then tell me why do people vote?
#26 Posted by KingKinect (540 posts) -

Isn't that the whole point of a representative democracy? We can't have all people involved in decision making so we let them elect few people to represent them in governance and policy making. Being indicted for a crime is irrelevant to one's political career, its only relevant to his/her personal life. Another point is I'd buy into your "voters are not responsible for the actions of the representatives they elected" argument if those voters where somehow deceived to elect them once. But these people keep getting reelected over and over and you'd expect voters to have enough responsibility/maturity to elect some decent people.GazaAli

This is an educational video on how the two party system works :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAT_BuJAI70

Also :lol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTJ0qYR6YFo

#27 Posted by Verge_6 (20282 posts) -

Because they pay for them?

We'll sell pretty much anybody weapons who will pay for them. Otherwise they'll just go buy weapons from Russia. We would rather have their money.

All of the major weapons the US and Russia exports are always the "export" version of them. Neither the US or Russia ever sells their standard military equipment. As a rule of thumb you never sell somebody a weapon that is better than your own.

Wasdie
Or even on par with your own. But, on this board anyways, a tank is a tank and a plane is a plane, regardless if the one being exported has a crap-tier sensor package as standard or targeting equipment that was outmoded even when the Wall fell.
#28 Posted by airshocker (29028 posts) -

When a voter votes for a politician, s/he does so based on their political beliefs and expectations. They do not elect politicians for their morality, sexual orientation...etcGazaAli

That isn't what we're talking about.

#29 Posted by airshocker (29028 posts) -

ok then tell me why do people vote?GazaAli

I don't care why people vote. The only thing I'm talking about is regards to voters being held accountable for their politicians actions.

#30 Posted by GazaAli (22503 posts) -
@KingKinect I know how sh!tty the U.S's two parties system is and how much Americans are dissatisfied with it but I was making a general point about democracy.
#31 Posted by GazaAli (22503 posts) -

[QUOTE="GazaAli"]ok then tell me why do people vote?airshocker

I don't care why people vote. The only thing I'm talking about is regards to voters being held accountable for their politicians actions.

Can't you tell me regardless?
#32 Posted by GazaAli (22503 posts) -

[QUOTE="GazaAli"] When a voter votes for a politician, s/he does so based on their political beliefs and expectations. They do not elect politicians for their morality, sexual orientation...etcairshocker

That isn't what we're talking about.

It is if you insist that voters are either fully responsible for the actions of their elected representatives or not at all.
#33 Posted by airshocker (29028 posts) -

Can't you tell me regardless?GazaAli

Why should I talk about something that has nothing to do with my original point...?

#34 Posted by airshocker (29028 posts) -

It is if you insist that voters are either fully responsible for the actions of their elected representatives or not at all.GazaAli

No it isn't.

#35 Posted by GazaAli (22503 posts) -
Do you have anything else to say other than NO or I DON'T WANT TO?
#36 Posted by airshocker (29028 posts) -

Do you have anything else to say other than NO or I DON'T WANT TO?GazaAli

When you stop acting like kuraimen and get back to the point I'm actually talking about, sure.

#37 Posted by PWSteal_Ldpinch (1208 posts) -

I didn't know we as a country are held accountable for our government's actions.

Why don't you write a letter to congress and ask them yourself?

airshocker

Well in a representative democracy we are at least a little bit accountable for our government's actions. Anyway to answer TC it's because America's foreign policy in the middle east has always been built on a fundamental lack of understanding of the region. Among which is the misunderstanding that any of these countries will exist stably in the long run. What happened in Egypt is the same as what happened in Iran. Just two years before the Iranian Revolution president Carter gave material support to the Shah thinking that Iran was "an island of stability" in the middle east. Repeatedly, American foreign policy has failed to account for the extreme contempt of the US in the Middle East, and American leaders would not be arming these people if these sentiments had been known to them.

#38 Posted by GazaAli (22503 posts) -

[QUOTE="GazaAli"]Do you have anything else to say other than NO or I DON'T WANT TO?airshocker

When you stop acting like kuraimen and get back to the point I'm actually talking about, sure.

Acting like what exactly?
#39 Posted by airshocker (29028 posts) -

Well in a representative democracy we are at least a little bit accountable for our government's actions.PWSteal_Ldpinch

I disagree. Now if I was a leading member of the party, complicit in some type of scandal or crime, then absolutely I would be responsible.

But in the eyes of the law no one is accountable for the actions of somebody else except in some very particular circumstances.

#40 Posted by airshocker (29028 posts) -

Acting like what exactly?GazaAli

He has a tendency to prattle on about things that aren't directly related to the points others are making. Then expects them to respond to those points.

I don't play that game.

#41 Posted by GazaAli (22503 posts) -

[QUOTE="airshocker"]

I didn't know we as a country are held accountable for our government's actions.

Why don't you write a letter to congress and ask them yourself?

PWSteal_Ldpinch

Well in a representative democracy we are at least a little bit accountable for our government's actions. Anyway to answer TC it's because America's foreign policy in the middle east has always been built on a fundamental lack of understanding of the region. Among which is the misunderstanding that any of these countries will exist stably in the long run. What happened in Egypt is the same as what happened in Iran. Just two years before the Iranian Revolution president Carter gave material support to the Shah thinking that Iran was "an island of stability" in the middle east. Repeatedly, American foreign policy has failed to account for the extreme contempt of the US in the Middle East, and American leaders would not be arming these people if these sentiments had been known to them.

If you really believe that U.S governments and its various institutions (CIA, State department, U.S Army, Consulates...etc) act with a poor understanding of the region then you are seriously deranged. You may not like their policies if you have the assumption that the average American citizen and they want the same thing which is largely incorrect.
#42 Posted by GazaAli (22503 posts) -

[QUOTE="GazaAli"] Acting like what exactly?airshocker

He has a tendency to prattle on about things that aren't directly related to the points others are making. Then expects them to respond to those points.

I don't play that game.

What a boss. That's a sh!tty excuse to end a discussion.
#43 Posted by airshocker (29028 posts) -

What a boss. That's a sh!tty excuse to end a discussion.GazaAli

It's kuraimen, there's never a sh*tty reason to end a discussion with him.

I have no problems discussing anything with anybody. I'm not the one bringing up arbitrary points that have nothing to do with my original point.

#44 Posted by GazaAli (22503 posts) -

[QUOTE="GazaAli"]What a boss. That's a sh!tty excuse to end a discussion.airshocker

It's kuraimen, there's never a sh*tty reason to end a discussion with him.

I have no problems discussing anything with anybody. I'm not the one bringing up arbitrary points that have nothing to do with my original point.

That's a pretty shortsighted way of looking at things. When people discuss something they don't just focus on it directly with a yes or no approach. They tend to approach it from different angles and take into account several related things on various levels. I can see however that you are not a fan which is fine anyway.
#45 Posted by BossPerson (9434 posts) -

It's to keep them happy so they remain "friendly"

#46 Posted by GazaAli (22503 posts) -

It's to keep them happy so they remain "friendly"

BossPerson
or to keep them policing the region.
#47 Posted by BossPerson (9434 posts) -

Airshocker doesn't seem to know what a representaitve democracy entails.

When a country has been doing the same thing for decades, at least to a certain extent, the voters who put them in office and didn;t make it an issue are responsible (to some extent).

#48 Posted by airshocker (29028 posts) -

That's a pretty shortsighted way of looking at things. When people discuss something they don't just focus on it directly with a yes or no approach. They tend to approach it from different angles and take into account several related things on various levels. I can see however that you are not a fan which is fine anyway.GazaAli

You've done no such thing. If you have a point to make, something that would give me a reason to blame voters for the actions of their representatives, then make it.

#49 Posted by airshocker (29028 posts) -

Airshocker doesn't seem to know what a representaitve democracy entails.

When a country has been doing the same thing for decades, at least to a certain extent, the voters who put them in office and didn;t make it an issue are responsible (to some extent).

BossPerson

I seem to know much more than any of you. I'm not trying to hold voters accountable for things they have no control over.

#50 Posted by GazaAli (22503 posts) -

[QUOTE="BossPerson"]

Airshocker doesn't seem to know what a representaitve democracy entails.

When a country has been doing the same thing for decades, at least to a certain extent, the voters who put them in office and didn;t make it an issue are responsible (to some extent).

airshocker

I seem to know much more than any of you. I'm not trying to hold voters accountable for things they have no control over.

But how they don't have control over it when they put them there?