1984, best seller after Conway coined 'alternative facts'

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#1  Edited By deactivated-5acfa3a8bc51d
Member since 2005 • 7914 Posts

"George Orwell’s dystopian novel 1984 has topped Amazon’s best seller list just three days after Kellyanne Conway used the phrase 'alternative facts' in an interview on Sunday’s Meet the Press." The book is outselling as people are becoming aware of the illusion being played by the White House. Have you read 1984? Do you find similarities with the novel and the era we live in?

I welcome anyone with high English literacy to explain why Newspeak isn't a bad thing.

They're crediting CNN's Reliable Sources, Karen Tumulty, for making the connection when I saw it a mile away!

‘Alternative facts’ is too simple for what it really is. Facts that can be overlooked and taken as true without credibility. It is dangerous when someone uses ‘alternative facts’ to justify an action upon people who live in the real reality. Real reality as in based upon the highest truth. Real reality cannot be said without clarification or it is subject to Newspeak.

The principle of Newspeak: most commonly, an oxymoron, used to dumb down the public. A horrific act can be substituted with a lighter word as well. Society becomes illiterate when their vocabulary shrinks.

The best way to battle Newspeak is to understand the wordplay.

Here is a list of examples for Newspeak:

SOURCE:

Entertainment Weekly

Real Life Doublespeak by Matt Jennissen.pdf

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#2 deactivated-5e9044657a310
Member since 2005 • 8136 Posts

We have always been at peace with Russia.

Russia has always been our Allie.

Alaska has always belonged to Russia

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#4 KEND0_KAP0NI
Member since 2016 • 1231 Posts

I bought that book when Hillary was the Democratic candidate.

Since I was sure Hilary would win, I was getting ready for the SJW Authoritarian Orwellian state.

I find it hilarious that people associate Trump with authoritarianism.

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#5 comp_atkins
Member since 2005 • 38683 Posts

obama gets elected, those who don't like it go buy guns.

trump gets elected, those who don't like it go buy books.

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#6  Edited By deactivated-5cf0a2e13dbde
Member since 2005 • 12935 Posts

I bet Kellyanne Conway has a gigantic collection of children's shoes and a never ending supply of flies and maggots......

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#7 AlexKidd5000
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"War is peace", "Freedom is slavery", and "Ignorance is strength"

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#8  Edited By mark1974
Member since 2015 • 4261 Posts

@kend0_kap0ni said:

I find it hilarious that people associate Trump with authoritarianism.

Links for you:

Donald Trump Is Becoming an Authoritarian Leader Before Our Very Eyes

Donald Trump's Authoritarian Politics of Memory

McMullin blasts 'authoritarian' Trump

Experts in authoritarianism are very concerned about Trump’s first few days as president

Trump is following the authoritarian playbook

An American Authoritarian

Beyond Lying: Donald Trump’s Authoritarian Reality

Seth Meyers: Trump is starting an 'authoritarian' war on the free press

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#9 R3FURBISHED
Member since 2008 • 12408 Posts

@comp_atkins said:

obama gets elected, those who don't like it go buy guns.

Obama gets elected, those who don't like it threaten to succeed

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#10  Edited By KHAndAnime
Member since 2009 • 17565 Posts

@mark1974 said:
@kend0_kap0ni said:

I find it hilarious that people associate Trump with authoritarianism.

Links for you:

Donald Trump Is Becoming an Authoritarian Leader Before Our Very Eyes

Donald Trump's Authoritarian Politics of Memory

McMullin blasts 'authoritarian' Trump

Experts in authoritarianism are very concerned about Trump’s first few days as president

Trump is following the authoritarian playbook

An American Authoritarian

Beyond Lying: Donald Trump’s Authoritarian Reality

Seth Meyers: Trump is starting an 'authoritarian' war on the free press

It's pretty hard to argue that someone who's for less government (meaing: less authority) wants more authority. 1984 is about a public manipulated by a fairly omnipotent government. Someone fighting to make government smaller and less powerful isn't creating an omnipotent government but instead more individual liberty.

But it's funny watching these articles try. For example

Trump’s self-centered decision process is authoritarianism, and it’s anything but irrational. He campaigned in an authoritarian style, with rallies where he riled up large crowds to jeer at the press and protesters. One of the defining tactics of his campaign was disinformation, coupled with accusations of the same against the media.

He held rallies? How authoritarian! Do you not realize how stupid that sounds? Meanwhile, Hillary ran the largest smear campaigns I've seen in my life with a campaign platform that was strictly attacking Donald Trump. Otherwise her campaign policy was "vote for me, I have a vagina!".

Have any more? These are actually pretty hilarious.

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#11  Edited By Maroxad
Member since 2007 • 23942 Posts
@KHAndAnime said:

It's pretty hard to argue that someone who's for less government (meaing: less authority) wants more authority. 1984 is about a public manipulated by a fairly omnipotent government. Someone fighting to make government smaller and less powerful isn't creating an omnipotent government but instead more individual liberty.

But it's funny watching these articles try. For example

Trump’s self-centered decision process is authoritarianism, and it’s anything but irrational. He campaigned in an authoritarian style, with rallies where he riled up large crowds to jeer at the press and protesters. One of the defining tactics of his campaign was disinformation, coupled with accusations of the same against the media.

He held rallies? How authoritarian! Do you not realize how stupid that sounds? Meanwhile, Hillary ran the largest smear campaigns I've seen in my life with a campaign platform that was strictly attacking Donald Trump. Otherwise her campaign policy was "vote for me, I have a vagina!".

Have any more? These are actually pretty hilarious.

Perhaps you should read what was stated again. To make it easy for you, I bolded the part.

Trump is basically a strongman. There is a reason he gets such heavy support from people with authoritarian tendencies. Suppressing freedom of speech with his proposed libel laws makes him far more authoritarian than Hillary ever was in the election.

But lets get real here,

  • Trump sows misinformation
  • Breeds a "Us vs Them" mentality
  • Has attempted censorship
  • He and his administration have attempted to steer people away from the actual facts.
  • Style over substance, emphasizing simplicity and forcefulness in his message.
  • Heavy dose of fear.
  • Punitive mentality.

Hillary was no saint either, but at the very least she was a lesser evil.

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#12 deactivated-5901ac91d8e33
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It's funny how leftists, the side who's ideas most closely resembles that of 1984, have the nerve to coin terms such as Newspeak. Especially since the government in the novel is socialist.

Also, it's obvious that you haven't read 1984. Newspeak, in the novel, is all about removing words and/or shortening them in order to remove any nuances that may exist...not adding more or exchanging words. This misunderstanding is most likely because of the phrase "war is peace" which is also present in the novel albeit not as an example of Newspeak.


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#13 mattbbpl
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This isn't new, really. This has been Frank Luntz's job for years, and I'm sure he's not the only one in US politics to make it his specialty.

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#14 deactivated-5b1e62582e305
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@jointed said:

It's funny how leftists, the side who's ideas most closely resembles that of 1984, have the nerve to coin terms such as Newspeak. Especially since the government in the novel is socialist.

Also, it's obvious that you haven't read 1984. Newspeak, in the novel, is all about removing words and/or shortening them in order to remove any nuances that may exist...not adding more or exchanging words. This misunderstanding is most likely because of the phrase "war is peace" which is also present in the novel albeit not as an example of Newspeak.

Orwell himself was a "leftist" and he wrote the book against totalitarianism, which the government in 1984 is.

Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic Socialism, as I understand it.

  • George Orwell, Why I Write

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#15 deactivated-5901ac91d8e33
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@perfect_blue said:
@jointed said:

It's funny how leftists, the side who's ideas most closely resembles that of 1984, have the nerve to coin terms such as Newspeak. Especially since the government in the novel is socialist.

Also, it's obvious that you haven't read 1984. Newspeak, in the novel, is all about removing words and/or shortening them in order to remove any nuances that may exist...not adding more or exchanging words. This misunderstanding is most likely because of the phrase "war is peace" which is also present in the novel albeit not as an example of Newspeak.

Orwell himself was a "leftist" and he wrote the book against totalitarianism, which the government in 1984 is.

Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic Socialism, as I understand it.

  • George Orwell, Why I Write

The government is socialist. The party name IngSoc (which is a great example of Newspeak) tells you as much.

Oh, and Orwell was an economic Social Democrat and mentioned often the dangers of the leftist perspective of viewing themselves as inherently "good", which is a central part in 1984 and in how the authoritarian situation in the novel spun out of control. Authority without an ideology leaves you with people like Pinochet or the feudal kings of old, so the novel is about more than merely a totalitarian government.

By the way...the quote you posted is from a book that was published before 1984.

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#16  Edited By deactivated-5b19214ec908b
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@jointed said:
@perfect_blue said:
@jointed said:

It's funny how leftists, the side who's ideas most closely resembles that of 1984, have the nerve to coin terms such as Newspeak. Especially since the government in the novel is socialist.

Also, it's obvious that you haven't read 1984. Newspeak, in the novel, is all about removing words and/or shortening them in order to remove any nuances that may exist...not adding more or exchanging words. This misunderstanding is most likely because of the phrase "war is peace" which is also present in the novel albeit not as an example of Newspeak.

Orwell himself was a "leftist" and he wrote the book against totalitarianism, which the government in 1984 is.

Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic Socialism, as I understand it.

  • George Orwell, Why I Write

The government is socialist. The party name IngSoc (which is a great example of Newspeak) tells you as much.

Oh, and Orwell was an economic Social Democrat and mentioned often the dangers of the leftist perspective of viewing themselves as inherently "good", which is a central part in 1984 and in how the authoritarian situation in the novel spun out of control. Authority without an ideology leaves you with people like Pinochet or the feudal kings of old, so the novel is about more than merely a totalitarian government.

By the way...the quote you posted is from a book that was published before 1984.

You clearly know very little about Orwell and I doubt you've even read 1984.

The government in 1984 is called IngSoc not because they're socialists but because they pretend to represent the British people, similar to how the Nazis and the soviet union used the word.

Like Animal Farm it's about a revolution with good intentions that's betrayed by the totalitarian elite. What he was aiming for was to show that Totalitarianism is a threat to anyone from any ideology in any country, not just the Russians.

Also "alternative fact" would be an example of newspeak as it's removing the word "lie" from the vocabulary.

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#17 LJS9502_basic  Online
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@kend0_kap0ni said:

I find it hilarious that people associate Trump with authoritarianism.

Then you haven't been paying attention to Trump. And you might not want to advertise your ignorance.

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#18 KOD
Member since 2016 • 2754 Posts

@kend0_kap0ni said:

I find it hilarious that people associate Trump with authoritarianism.

Whats hilarious about it? You get that anyone who would win either of the major parties would be an authoritarian?

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#19  Edited By KOD
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@jointed said:

It's funny how leftists, the side who's ideas most closely resembles that of 1984, have the nerve to coin terms such as Newspeak. Especially since the government in the novel is socialist.

So like.... do you pay attention to these things? I know there is this weird breed of liberal that wants to be progressive but seems to take the actions of the religious right, but this is new. At least it being a common narrative and something you often hear, is fairly new. Im sure there have always been crazies who have absurd things, but this sect of democrat just rose up to 10-15% of the party recently and became vocal.

That said, we've had the religious right wing for decades, which by its own nature defines totalitarianism and authoritarian. Its hard to even compare the two in America because even though its the same extremist mechanism, id still say the Christian right (which is about 40% of the American right wing) goes even further beyond the control the leftists propose. While the extremists on the left tend to want to control speech, so do those on the right, but they take it a step further and want to control who you love, who you sleep with, how you sleep with them, if you can love yourself, etc. I think the obvious difference here is with the left, you have to bastardize and alter the democratic positions to get where the crazies have gotten. With the right, that has more people and has been established longer and has a stronger hold on the general right wing voter (i just feel the need to again point that out), its inherent, its what it is.

I often find many of the people who read Orwell never understood what he wrote about or they try to politicize it in their favor and ignore reality. 1984 was not a book about the "left", it was a book about how governments go corrupt and become totalitarian (of course, one should never read 1984 without reading animal farm first as they are sister novels). He covered many types of government in his various novels and how they can go wrong, with the common theme generally being that nothing is safe, there is no perfect system that can go unchecked, its not about parties or one ideology being better than another.

The government in 1984 was not socialist, it was communist...if you dont know the difference or cant tell the difference i highly suggest you stop having these conversations and read more Orwell. But, that would not matter as if you take his work seriously, you'll understand he wrote about all governments and all types of power. Including Capitalism, which he actually felt was possibly the worst system one could implement (so if you're a staunch capitalist, try not to cite his work). That said, Orwell himself felt that there was no better type of government than democratic socialism as its easier to keep in check. With the worst types being communism, capitalism and we are to assume fascism.. I say assume because its the definition of many of the corruptions he writes about, but he never specifically wrote about the subject. He did however take a bullet in an attempt to stop it. So its safe to say he disliked it.

What I have most wanted to do throughout the past ten years is to make political writing into an art.

My starting point is always a feeling of partisanship, a sense of injustice.

When I sit down to write a book, I do not say to myself, ‘I am going to produce a work of art’. I write it because there is some lie that I want to expose, some fact to which I want to draw attention, and my initial concern is to get a hearing.

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#20 JustPlainLucas
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Can't remember if I read this one or not. I know I read Animal Farm, but that was way back in school. Anyway, I put myself on hold at my library, and noticed a handful of people did too.

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#21  Edited By KOD
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Animal Farm is kind of one of those must own books.

I forget who wrote a book on the subject, or... maybe it was a long paper, but someone wrote a piece on why Animal Farm was the most important book written in the 20th century. It might have been Hitchens but dont quote me on that.

EDIT

Yah, it was Hitchens. The books called "Why Orwell Matters" and its fucking amazing.

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#22 Gaming-Planet
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I'm happy to see our country finally read books and stay woke.

They seemed so asleep under Obama.

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#23 deactivated-5cf0a2e13dbde
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@Gaming-Planet said:

I'm happy to see our country finally read books and stay woke.

They seemed so asleep under Obama.

The only person that has read a book in the last 8 years was Hilary Clinton. It was a book by Niccolo Machiavelli, entitled How To Not Become The Prince. zing!! pow!!!!

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#24 deactivated-5f9e3c6a83e51
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@hillelslovak said:
@Gaming-Planet said:

I'm happy to see our country finally read books and stay woke.

They seemed so asleep under Obama.

The only person that has read a book in the last 8 years was Hilary Clinton. It was a book by Niccolo Machiavelli, entitled How To Not Become The Prince. zing!! pow!!!!

She also read, "the Power of the Pants Suit"

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#25  Edited By deactivated-5901ac91d8e33
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@kod said:
@jointed said:

It's funny how leftists, the side who's ideas most closely resembles that of 1984, have the nerve to coin terms such as Newspeak. Especially since the government in the novel is socialist.

So like.... do you pay attention to these things? I know there is this weird breed of liberal that wants to be progressive but seems to take the actions of the religious right, but this is new. At least it being a common narrative and something you often hear, is fairly new. Im sure there have always been crazies who have absurd things, but this sect of democrat just rose up to 10-15% of the party recently and became vocal.

That said, we've had the religious right wing for decades, which by its own nature defines totalitarianism and authoritarian. Its hard to even compare the two in America because even though its the same extremist mechanism, id still say the Christian right (which is about 40% of the American right wing) goes even further beyond the control the leftists propose. While the extremists on the left tend to want to control speech, so do those on the right, but they take it a step further and want to control who you love, who you sleep with, how you sleep with them, if you can love yourself, etc. I think the obvious difference here is with the left, you have to bastardize and alter the democratic positions to get where the crazies have gotten. With the right, that has more people and has been established longer and has a stronger hold on the general right wing voter (i just feel the need to again point that out), its inherent, its what it is.

I often find many of the people who read Orwell never understood what he wrote about or they try to politicize it in their favor and ignore reality. 1984 was not a book about the "left", it was a book about how governments go corrupt and become totalitarian (of course, one should never read 1984 without reading animal farm first as they are sister novels). He covered many types of government in his various novels and how they can go wrong, with the common theme generally being that nothing is safe, there is no perfect system that can go unchecked, its not about parties or one ideology being better than another.

The government in 1984 was not socialist, it was communist...if you dont know the difference or cant tell the difference i highly suggest you stop having these conversations and read more Orwell. But, that would not matter as if you take his work seriously, you'll understand he wrote about all governments and all types of power. Including Capitalism, which he actually felt was possibly the worst system one could implement (so if you're a staunch capitalist, try not to cite his work). That said, Orwell himself felt that there was no better type of government than democratic socialism as its easier to keep in check. With the worst types being communism, capitalism and we are to assume fascism.. I say assume because its the definition of many of the corruptions he writes about, but he never specifically wrote about the subject. He did however take a bullet in an attempt to stop it. So its safe to say he disliked it.

What I have most wanted to do throughout the past ten years is to make political writing into an art.

My starting point is always a feeling of partisanship, a sense of injustice.

When I sit down to write a book, I do not say to myself, ‘I am going to produce a work of art’. I write it because there is some lie that I want to expose, some fact to which I want to draw attention, and my initial concern is to get a hearing.

In America you haven't had any prominent socialist movements up until recently, that is true. Sure, some unionizing efforts took place during the early 20th century but they got crushed. Now however, you have a vast number of truly marxist groupings and ideas taking root in the mainstream. Groups such as Black Lives Matter and ideas such as white privilege.

What you said about the religious right is also true, but their beliefs about Jesus and the bible are often accompanied by a strong affection for the constitution. This puts a dent in any authoritarian aspirations they might have. Also, the things you mentioned about same sex marriage, the religious right and bastardization can be witnessed in socialist countries like the USSR or Cuba...but here no "bastardization" was required. Their reasoning was that homosexuals don't produce any children that can grow up to be workers, thus it's something which should not be encouraged. Being a homosexual in the USSR would land you in a labor camp for 5 years. These laws weren't based any any corruption from Stalin or Castro, they were based on core Socialist writings.

You are also right in your claims that the specific ideology of the government in 1984 is largely irrelevant to the points being made but a main point is the USE of ideology and socialism is one of the more susceptible ideologies to totalitarian tendencies because it focuses on the masses rather than the individual. The individual rights are secondary to the rights of the people. This is why Orwell chose socialist origins for the "governments" in both 1984 and Animal Farm.

Also, the development of totalitarianism in 1984 is NOT because of corruption or some reckless leader getting in power. It's highly sophisticated and malicious. Something like that can't be attained without an appropriate ideology that puts individual rights to the side. North Korea is a great existing example. Do you have any examples of capitalist/religious modern governments going down this path?

As for the difference between communism and socialism. Communism is the classless society, the end goal, while socialism is the first step. This is why all "communist" countries call themselves socialist.

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#26 KittenNose
Member since 2014 • 2470 Posts

Do people really see 1984 and think "Yeah, this is what corrupt business people would do to line their own pockets"? That is just silly. I wonder if buying the book or claiming to have read it is just a fashion statement these days. 1984 is about collectivism run amuck, not anarcho-capitalism. People don't even bother to get their hyperbolic propaganda right these days. trump is a doffy jerk who hopefully will die of extremely natural causes in the next few moments (gosh help me if he is martyred, that can not be allowed to freaking happen) but he isn't a fanatical collectivist, and his supports are most definitely not.

Animal Farm and 1984 are books individualists wave when obtusely inditing collectivism, not the other way around. Holy Kittens people these days need to read more then just the headlines.