#1 Posted by DarthGumballs (209 posts) -

So I've been an Apple guy since forever and owned an iPad 4 and iPad Mini for awhile but sold both before the Air came out as I was planning on upgrading to the Air. Well that didn't end up happening, and anyway this week I finally got a new tablet, the Samsung Galaxy Tab 3 7.0. It was on sale for $179 and I was thinking of getting the Kindle Fire HDX but decided since the Galaxy has a microSD slot it'd probably be worth getting.

After using it for a few days I'm pretty sure even the first gen Kindle Fire is faster than this thing. At times it takes the keyboard anywhere from 1.5 to 3 seconds to pop up which is an eternity...It feels like I'm using a dial up computer from the 90's. I downloaded Candy Crush and it took about 15 seconds to load. On the iPad 4 or on my iPhone 5 the load time is just a few seconds.

The web browser often takes several seconds to pop up and there's always a 3-5 second delay when pushing the home button or trying to switch apps.

Why is a device that's only $100 cheaper than an iPad Mini decades behind its performance? I really should've returned it on day one, but I didn't feel like it. I'm probably going to stick with it until I do end up getting the iPad Air, but I'm not impressed at all. Maybe if this were a $99 tablet, but it's certainly not even comparable to the cheaper Kindle Fire (besides the SD slot and app store). The screen is absolutely awful as well.

Is there something wrong, or is the Tab 3 just meant to move at a snail's pace?

#2 Edited by NVIDIATI (7854 posts) -

The hardware inside of that tablet is extremely outdated, not to mention Samsung loads on their bloatware that slows down Android even further. Personally I would avoid any and all Galaxy tablets.

You want a good inexpensive small tablet? Try the Dell Venue 8 Pro 32GB ($229 @ Microsoft Store) or if you want a Wacom stylus with the device, the ASUS VivoTab Note 8 32GB ($299 @ Microsoft Store). Both are far more capable than an Android or iOS counterpart.

#3 Posted by mystic_knight (13801 posts) -

Samasung galaxy tab range are pure garbage and money making from brand recognition only... worst mistake you could have done.

NVIDIATI gave you good options on windows based products.

For iOS you have only 2 options ipad mini with retina or iPad Air.

On android

Galaxy note 2014 10.1, Asus nexus 7 2013 (though that should be refreshed soon.)

Lg Gpad

Sony xperia z2 tablet (My personal pick)

#4 Edited by musicalmac (23636 posts) -

Come home. Forget the imitators. None will feel as responsive as the iPad anyways. That A7 alone is enough to make it a winner, called desktop class by Anand.

#5 Edited by mystic_knight (13801 posts) -

Anandtech did not call it desktop class, they referred to Apples PR calling it desktop class. -_-' read your sources man.

Anyway the Xperia Z2 tablet would provide you a more versatile experience if you want to travel the android world, it also is water proof with an ip 55 and 58 rating.

I have the iPad air and i despise it personally, there is nothing "desktop" about it at all. It does not even a good browser to do web content information from.

My htc one can flawlessly open wordpress, submit content and alter/add information. the iPad air does not allow you to use the wysiwyg editor you have to open a separate window.. seriously apple is pretty hopeless with their software.

The only perk with iOS is a little extra exclusive apps. but the gap is closing and going androids way, with developers now prioritising android first.

#6 Posted by NVIDIATI (7854 posts) -

@musicalmac said:

Come home. Forget the imitators. None will feel as responsive as the iPad anyways. That A7 alone is enough to make it a winner, called desktop class by Anand.

Try not to be suckered in by buzz words, Bay Trail is actually running desktop class applications.

#7 Posted by musicalmac (23636 posts) -

@NVIDIATI said:

@musicalmac said:

Come home. Forget the imitators. None will feel as responsive as the iPad anyways. That A7 alone is enough to make it a winner, called desktop class by Anand.

Try not to be suckered in by buzz words, Bay Trail is actually running desktop class applications.

Which words are the buzzwords?

And what are the advantages of running "actual" desktop class applications on mobile devices? Doesn't it make more sense to create new apps from tone ground up that fully utilize the advantages of mobile devices like a tablet?

#8 Posted by DarthGumballs (209 posts) -

@musicalmac:

@musicalmac said:

Come home. Forget the imitators. None will feel as responsive as the iPad anyways. That A7 alone is enough to make it a winner, called desktop class by Anand.

Yeah...I'm just going to get either an iPad Air or whatever is out after I get back from deployment this summer. The Tab will do until then...

#9 Posted by NVIDIATI (7854 posts) -

@musicalmac said:

@NVIDIATI said:

@musicalmac said:

Come home. Forget the imitators. None will feel as responsive as the iPad anyways. That A7 alone is enough to make it a winner, called desktop class by Anand.

Try not to be suckered in by buzz words, Bay Trail is actually running desktop class applications.

Which words are the buzzwords?

And what are the advantages of running "actual" desktop class applications on mobile devices? Doesn't it make more sense to create new apps from tone ground up that fully utilize the advantages of mobile devices like a tablet?

Calling it a "desktop class" SoC, etc. Clearly a buzzword when you consider the real world performance and capabilities of the A7 inside the iPad Air.

Windows Bay Trail tablets already have a great touch interface for basic tasks that's extremely responsive (photos, music, video, web browsing, etc.), and they also have a number of popular touch applications that you'll find in the Google Play Store or Apple App Store. Desktop class applications are part of a massive ecosystem and offer a considerable amount more than a common touch app developed for iOS/Android. Take gaming for example, you can play any game up to (and including) titles such as Half Life 2, Portal 2, Team Fortress 2, or Left 4 Dead 2. Using an application like GestureWorks Gameplay you can add your own on screen touch controls and map them to your taste, or use one of the many pre-set controls for your game. If you don't like using touch controls you can use a wired or wireless controller, some companies are also creating controller docks for tablets.

Later this month Windows 8.1 will be receiving "Update 1", which will lower the footprint of the OS and boost device performance. There is also the launch of the Z3795 which will be paired with 4GB of ram, it has a higher GPU clock than the Z3770 (~18% boost), and it will be running 64-bit Windows 8.1.

Later this year, Cherry Trail will be releasing to replace Bay Trail and it will allow for even more demanding applications to be used. Gaming examples: Skyrim, Diablo III, Civ V, Bioshock, Fallout 3, etc.

#10 Posted by mystic_knight (13801 posts) -

@darthgumballs said:

@musicalmac:

@musicalmac said:

Come home. Forget the imitators. None will feel as responsive as the iPad anyways. That A7 alone is enough to make it a winner, called desktop class by Anand.

Yeah...I'm just going to get either an iPad Air or whatever is out after I get back from deployment this summer. The Tab will do until then...

Weak man... weak, you let a crappy tablet influence your decision on one of the most diverse platforms.

This is why you should seek consultation before investing in an area you are not familiar with, you end up making a decision you will regret. anyone on this forum would have told you the galaxy tab was garbage.

#11 Posted by musicalmac (23636 posts) -

@NVIDIATI said:

Calling it a "desktop class" SoC, etc. Clearly a buzzword when you consider the real world performance and capabilities of the A7 inside the iPad Air.

Windows Bay Trail tablets already have a great touch interface for basic tasks that's extremely responsive (photos, music, video, web browsing, etc.), and they also have a number of popular touch applications that you'll find in the Google Play Store or Apple App Store. Desktop class applications are part of a massive ecosystem and offer a considerable amount more than a common touch app developed for iOS/Android. Take gaming for example, you can play any game up to (and including) titles such as Half Life 2, Portal 2, Team Fortress 2, or Left 4 Dead 2. Using an application like GestureWorks Gameplay you can add your own on screen touch controls and map them to your taste, or use one of the many pre-set controls for your game. If you don't like using touch controls you can use a wired or wireless controller, some companies are also creating controller docks for tablets.

Later this month Windows 8.1 will be receiving "Update 1", which will lower the footprint of the OS and boost device performance. There is also the launch of the Z3795 which will be paired with 4GB of ram, it has a higher GPU clock than the Z3770 (~18% boost), and it will be running 64-bit Windows 8.1.

Later this year, Cherry Trail will be releasing to replace Bay Trail and it will allow for even more demanding applications to be used. Gaming examples: Skyrim, Diablo III, Civ V, Bioshock, Fallout 3, etc.

The term "desktop class" wasn't devised by me, it was announced by Apple and confirmed by the highly respected AnandTech.

Unfortunately I don't have enough data on Swift to really produce a decent comparison image. With six decoders and nine ports to execution units, Cyclone is big. As I mentioned before, it's bigger than anything else that goes in a phone. Apple didn't build a Krait/Silvermont competitor, it built something much closer to Intel's big cores. At the launch of the iPhone 5s, Apple referred to the A7 as being "desktop class" - it turns out that wasn't an exaggeration.

It wasn't until I wrote this piece that Apple's codenames started to make sense. Swift was quick, but Cyclone really does stir everything up. The earlier than expected introduction of a consumer 64-bit ARMv8 SoC caught pretty much everyone off guard (e.g. Qualcomm's shift to vanilla ARM cores for more of its product stack).

The real question is where does Apple go from here? By now we know to expect an "A8" branded Apple SoC in the iPhone 6 and iPad Air successors later this year. There's little benefit in going substantially wider than Cyclone, but there's still a ton of room to improve performance. One obvious example would be through frequency scaling. Cyclone is clocked very conservatively (1.3GHz in the 5s/iPad mini with Retina Display and 1.4GHz in the iPad Air), assuming Apple moves to a 20nm process later this year it should be possible to get some performance by increasing clock speed scaling without a power penalty. I suspect Apple has more tricks up its sleeve than that however. Swift and Cyclone were two tocks in a row by Intel's definition, a third in 3 years would be unusual but not impossible (Intel sort of committed to doing the same with Saltwell/Silvermont/Airmont in 2012 - 2014).

Looking at Cyclone makes one thing very clear: the rest of the players in the ultra mobile CPU space didn't aim high enough. I wonder what happens next round.

Credit AnandTech

If you didn't take the time to fully read the linked article, I encourage you to do so. I also don't find the argument that you can play games like Half Life, Fallout, or Diablo a compelling reason to explain the advantages of Windows tablets. I also don't see the advantage to being able to run desktop applications unless your chosen hardware doesn't include 3rd party support for what you need (a rare thing on the iOS App Store).

It always seems that "what's coming next is why Apple's iPad isn't good enough." It's a story that's repeated so often that it's lost all meaning. As if Apple will stop innovating or refuse to upgrade the various parts of their devices so everyone else can catch up.

Microsoft lost a decade, and it shows. Android tablets aren't even worth mentioning outside of this small statement.

#12 Posted by NVIDIATI (7854 posts) -

@musicalmac said:

@NVIDIATI said:

Calling it a "desktop class" SoC, etc. Clearly a buzzword when you consider the real world performance and capabilities of the A7 inside the iPad Air.

Windows Bay Trail tablets already have a great touch interface for basic tasks that's extremely responsive (photos, music, video, web browsing, etc.), and they also have a number of popular touch applications that you'll find in the Google Play Store or Apple App Store. Desktop class applications are part of a massive ecosystem and offer a considerable amount more than a common touch app developed for iOS/Android. Take gaming for example, you can play any game up to (and including) titles such as Half Life 2, Portal 2, Team Fortress 2, or Left 4 Dead 2. Using an application like GestureWorks Gameplay you can add your own on screen touch controls and map them to your taste, or use one of the many pre-set controls for your game. If you don't like using touch controls you can use a wired or wireless controller, some companies are also creating controller docks for tablets.

Later this month Windows 8.1 will be receiving "Update 1", which will lower the footprint of the OS and boost device performance. There is also the launch of the Z3795 which will be paired with 4GB of ram, it has a higher GPU clock than the Z3770 (~18% boost), and it will be running 64-bit Windows 8.1.

Later this year, Cherry Trail will be releasing to replace Bay Trail and it will allow for even more demanding applications to be used. Gaming examples: Skyrim, Diablo III, Civ V, Bioshock, Fallout 3, etc.

The term "desktop class" wasn't devised by me, it was announced by Apple and confirmed by the highly respected AnandTech.

Unfortunately I don't have enough data on Swift to really produce a decent comparison image. With six decoders and nine ports to execution units, Cyclone is big. As I mentioned before, it's bigger than anything else that goes in a phone. Apple didn't build a Krait/Silvermont competitor, it built something much closer to Intel's big cores. At the launch of the iPhone 5s, Apple referred to the A7 as being "desktop class" - it turns out that wasn't an exaggeration.

It wasn't until I wrote this piece that Apple's codenames started to make sense. Swift was quick, but Cyclone really does stir everything up. The earlier than expected introduction of a consumer 64-bit ARMv8 SoC caught pretty much everyone off guard (e.g. Qualcomm's shift to vanilla ARM cores for more of its product stack).

The real question is where does Apple go from here? By now we know to expect an "A8" branded Apple SoC in the iPhone 6 and iPad Air successors later this year. There's little benefit in going substantially wider than Cyclone, but there's still a ton of room to improve performance. One obvious example would be through frequency scaling. Cyclone is clocked very conservatively (1.3GHz in the 5s/iPad mini with Retina Display and 1.4GHz in the iPad Air), assuming Apple moves to a 20nm process later this year it should be possible to get some performance by increasing clock speed scaling without a power penalty. I suspect Apple has more tricks up its sleeve than that however. Swift and Cyclone were two tocks in a row by Intel's definition, a third in 3 years would be unusual but not impossible (Intel sort of committed to doing the same with Saltwell/Silvermont/Airmont in 2012 - 2014).

Looking at Cyclone makes one thing very clear: the rest of the players in the ultra mobile CPU space didn't aim high enough. I wonder what happens next round.

Credit AnandTech

If you didn't take the time to fully read the linked article, I encourage you to do so. I also don't find the argument that you can play games like Half Life, Fallout, or Diablo a compelling reason to explain the advantages of Windows tablets. I also don't see the advantage to being able to run desktop applications unless your chosen hardware doesn't include 3rd party support for what you need (a rare thing on the iOS App Store).

It always seems that "what's coming next is why Apple's iPad isn't good enough." It's a story that's repeated so often that it's lost all meaning. As if Apple will stop innovating or refuse to upgrade the various parts of their devices so everyone else can catch up.

Microsoft lost a decade, and it shows. Android tablets aren't even worth mentioning outside of this small statement.

I have read that previously and I am aware of how Anand feels about Cyclone, but there is a problem though with your statement. You said: "That A7 alone is enough to make it a winner, called desktop class by Anand.", but Anand is performing an analysis of Cyclone, not the A7 in context of iOS and the iPad Air, a platform which its capabilities are stuck in a bottleneck. Hence the fact the iPad Air can not run any "desktop class" applications, yet a Windows Bay Trail tablet can.

I don't know why you would try to dismiss the ability to run PC games, it is clearly a massive advantage for a Windows tablet.

Hardware compatibility and software support is endless on a Windows tablet. Plug a Windows tablet into a keyboard dock or monitor and it becomes a full fledged laptop or desktop computer, this is just another thing the iPad and iOS cannot offer. Having a problem using your finger with CAD software like Inventor? Quite a few tablets have an active stylus that does a great job in navigating (or other tasks such as drawing or note taking). The fact of the matter is productivity is unrivaled on a Windows tablet.

What's currently on the market (Bay Trail Windows tablets) is why the iPad/iOS isn't good enough. What is coming in the future (H2 2014) for Windows tablets and 2-in-1s (Cherry Trail, Braswell, Broadwell-Y) will help enforce that statement.

#13 Posted by musicalmac (23636 posts) -

@NVIDIATI said:

I have read that previously and I am aware of how Anand feels about Cyclone, but there is a problem though with your statement. You said: "That A7alone is enough to make it a winner, called desktop class by Anand.", but Anand is performing an analysis of Cyclone, not the A7 in context of iOS and the iPad Air, a platform which its capabilities are stuck in a bottleneck. Hence the fact the iPad Air can not run any "desktop class" applications, yet a Windows Bay Trail tablet can.

I don't know why you would try to dismiss the ability to run PC games, it is clearly a massive advantage for a Windows tablet.

Hardware compatibility and software support is endless on a Windows tablet. Plug a Windows tablet into a keyboard dock or monitor and it becomes a full fledged laptop or desktop computer, this is just another thing the iPad and iOS cannot offer. Having a problem using your finger with CAD software like Inventor? Quite a few tablets have an active stylus that does a great job in navigating (or other tasks such as drawing or note taking). The fact of the matter is productivity is unrivaled on a Windows tablet.

What's currently on the market (Bay Trail Windows tablets) is why the iPad/iOS isn't good enough. What is coming in the future (H2 2014) for Windows tablets and 2-in-1s (Cherry Trail, Braswell, Broadwell-Y) will help enforce that statement.

I think you're cherry picking tongue-in-cheek statements to bend a debate towards your own personal crusade. It's very much like the most opportunistic career politician, which isn't a compliment, heh. For crying out loud, the guy already said he was going to grab an iPad Air. Try to break free from your personal hang-ups and enjoy the wonderful world of context.

The iPad was never designed to run desktop applications, nor does it need to because it enjoys without question the best authentic, native, and optimized software support. You just don't want what an iPad offers, which to you means that nobody wants what an iPad offers -- which is very selfish logic, indeed.

Maybe one day people will finally wake up and understand the world's most popular tablet just isn't good enough, but for now, that's just a truly hilarious joke. I know I'm laughing.

#14 Edited by NVIDIATI (7854 posts) -

@musicalmac said:

@NVIDIATI said:

I have read that previously and I am aware of how Anand feels about Cyclone, but there is a problem though with your statement. You said: "That A7alone is enough to make it a winner, called desktop class by Anand.", but Anand is performing an analysis of Cyclone, not the A7 in context of iOS and the iPad Air, a platform which its capabilities are stuck in a bottleneck. Hence the fact the iPad Air can not run any "desktop class" applications, yet a Windows Bay Trail tablet can.

I don't know why you would try to dismiss the ability to run PC games, it is clearly a massive advantage for a Windows tablet.

Hardware compatibility and software support is endless on a Windows tablet. Plug a Windows tablet into a keyboard dock or monitor and it becomes a full fledged laptop or desktop computer, this is just another thing the iPad and iOS cannot offer. Having a problem using your finger with CAD software like Inventor? Quite a few tablets have an active stylus that does a great job in navigating (or other tasks such as drawing or note taking). The fact of the matter is productivity is unrivaled on a Windows tablet.

What's currently on the market (Bay Trail Windows tablets) is why the iPad/iOS isn't good enough. What is coming in the future (H2 2014) for Windows tablets and 2-in-1s (Cherry Trail, Braswell, Broadwell-Y) will help enforce that statement.

I think you're cherry picking tongue-in-cheek statements to bend a debate towards your own personal crusade. It's very much like the most opportunistic career politician, which isn't a compliment, heh. For crying out loud, the guy already said he was going to grab an iPad Air. Try to break free from your personal hang-ups and enjoy the wonderful world of context.

The iPad was never designed to run desktop applications, nor does it need to because it enjoys without question the best authentic, native, and optimized software support. You just don't want what an iPad offers, which to you means that nobody wants what an iPad offers -- which is very selfish logic, indeed.

Maybe one day people will finally wake up and understand the world's most popular tablet just isn't good enough, but for now, that's just a truly hilarious joke. I know I'm laughing.

I find it strange that you consistently ignore valid points and start tossing rhetoric mixed in with personal insults.

TC is free to get any tablet he wants, but I’ve been having a discussion with you, not him.

Windows tablets have many methods of interacting, customizing and controlling applications. Clearly you are not familiar with these or a Windows tablet’s capabilities. Windows tablets are not these linear devices, they’re more than that.

Why do you keep dodging my point regarding gaming? It seems very appropriate considering this is also a gaming website.

I would ask you don’t put words in my mouth or make unnecessary assumptions. Your snide remarks have also lost their charm, again I’m not going to continue playing this ‘cat and mouse’ game with you if you are unable to have a reasonable discussion.

#15 Posted by musicalmac (23636 posts) -

@NVIDIATI said:

I find it strange that you consistently ignore valid points and start tossing rhetoric mixed in with personal insults.

TC is free to get any tablet he wants, but I’ve been having a discussion with you, not him.

Windows tablets have many methods of interacting, customizing and controlling applications. Clearly you are not familiar with these or a Windows tablet’s capabilities. Windows tablets are not these linear devices, they’re more than that.

Why do you keep dodging my point regarding gaming? It seems very appropriate considering this is also a gaming website.

I would ask you don’t put words in my mouth or make unnecessary assumptions. Your snide remarks have also lost their charm, again I’m not going to continue playing this ‘cat and mouse’ game with you if you are unable to have a reasonable discussion.

I'm well aware of their capabilities. I own a company that develops a suite of software on all three major app platforms across ever major touch device on the market. The issue is not my failure to understand available technology.

I'm not exactly dodging your point on gaming because I don't have a good response, but because I don't think it's as immediately relevant as you do. Adding a keyboard and mouse to a tablet to play Team Fortress 2 is something that can be done, but not something that makes a whole lot of sense to me - that is unless you're acknowledging the fact that the availability of authentic, native, andoptimized software is bad and that making these special accommodations to enjoy enriching gaming experiences is necessary (which it is). It's not something worth bragging about.

Truthfully, I just don't understand what point you're trying to make. If that point is that Windows tablets require traditional computer software, that hasn't been optimized for tablet computers and that hasn't been developed primarily with touch interfaces in mind, to be competitive in the market place -- point taken. If you're trying to explain that as a strength, I think you have some more digging to do to find a compelling argument.

I will not apathetically accept that the availability of traditional software is inherently a strength, it's much more accurate to call it a crutch. That's lazy conventional wisdom.

If you have a compelling point that you'd like me to address directly, throw up some bullet points so I know exactly what it is you want to hear. Surprise me, please. Do something unexpected.

#16 Edited by NVIDIATI (7854 posts) -

@musicalmac said:

I'm well aware of their capabilities. I own a company that develops a suite of software on all three major app platforms across ever major touch device on the market. The issue is not my failure to understand available technology.

I'm not exactly dodging your point on gaming because I don't have a good response, but because I don't think it's as immediately relevant as you do. Adding a keyboard and mouse to a tablet to play Team Fortress 2 is something that can be done, but not something that makes a whole lot of sense to me - that is unless you're acknowledging the fact that the availability of authentic, native, andoptimized software is bad and that making these special accommodations to enjoy enriching gaming experiences is necessary (which it is). It's not something worth bragging about.

Truthfully, I just don't understand what point you're trying to make. If that point is that Windows tablets require traditional computer software, that hasn't been optimized for tablet computers and that hasn't been developed primarily with touch interfaces in mind, to be competitive in the market place -- point taken. If you're trying to explain that as a strength, I think you have some more digging to do to find a compelling argument.

I will not apathetically accept that the availability of traditional software is inherently a strength, it's much more accurate to call it a crutch. That's lazy conventional wisdom.

If you have a compelling point that you'd like me to address directly, throw up some bullet points so I know exactly what it is you want to hear. Surprise me, please. Do something unexpected.

Yes, you can use a keyboard and mouse, or a separate controller, and in some cases it might be preferable. However, as I stated in an earlier post, you can use on-screen controls via software such as GestureWorks Gameplay. This gives you the option to use one of the pre-set controllers or create your own custom touch controller (complete with touch gestures) to best suit your preferences. I should also add, GestureWorks Gameplay 2 will add the ability to turn an Android device into a wireless controller complete with touch controls, gestures and the ability to utilize a device's accelerometer with the addition of vibration/audio feedback.

Examples:

Portal 2
South Park: The Stick of Truth
Resident Evil 4
Final Fantasy VII
Super Street Fighter IV (2 player mode)
Starbound
TrackMania
Limbo
Half Life 2
Customize and create your own controls
GestureWorks Gameplay 2 - Dirt 3 split screen using two Android devices as wireless controllers.
#17 Edited by musicalmac (23636 posts) -

@NVIDIATI I didn't miss that, either. I just can't imagine playing games like RE4, Half-Life, Portal 2, or Street Fighter -- games that were fully developed for a gamepad or m+kb -- with touch controls. Some of those games, games like FFVII, would be just fine with those controls.

The ideal scenario, however, would be to enjoy high-quality games created from the ground up with full touch screen displays in mind. But as I've noted a few times, the available library of titles on Windows tablets especially is very, very weak.

#18 Edited by NVIDIATI (7854 posts) -

@musicalmac said:

@NVIDIATI I didn't miss that, either. I just can't imagine playing games like RE4, Half-Life, Portal 2, or Street Fighter -- games that were fully developed for a gamepad or m+kb -- with touch controls. Some of those games, games like FFVII, would be just fine with those controls.

The ideal scenario, however, would be to enjoy high-quality games created from the ground up with full touch screen displays in mind. But as I've noted a few times, the available library of titles on Windows tablets especially is very, very weak.

What are these 'high-quality' touch screen games on iOS that are so distinct? Preference or not I don't know how you can overlook the ability to play some of these games on a tablet (South Park, Limbo, etc.). There are countless indie and classic PC titles that would also work very well with the touch controller.

I personally dislike touch controls for most games, but that's not the case for everyone, some people would be happy to play those types of games on a touch screen. The FPS genre, in my opinion, does not work well with touch controls. RTS games can vary, Civilization V has some great touch controls, but the game is a little too demanding for something like Bay Trail, Cherry Trail on the other-hand should offer a reasonable experience.

Gaming and the tablet experience doesn't always have to be as linear as you make it out to be, some things just don't work well with touch controls. An ideal mobile experience for me (and I imagine quite a number of other gamers) is something like AMD's project discovery (something a little more discrete, the loud-speaker at the base of the controller dock doesn't need to be there), a simple controller dock for your tablet. Dock in a small 8-inch tablet like the Dell Venue 8 pro or Lenovo ThinkPad 8.

AMD Project discovery

#19 Edited by musicalmac (23636 posts) -

@NVIDIATI said:

What are these 'high-quality' touch screen games on iOS that are so distinct? Preference or not I don't know how you can overlook the ability to play some of these games on a tablet (South Park, Limbo, etc.). There are countless indie and classic PC titles that would also work very well with the touch controller.

I personally dislike touch controls for most games, but that's not the case for everyone, some people would be happy to play those types of games on a touch screen. The FPS genre, in my opinion, does not work well with touch controls. RTS games can vary, Civilization V has some great touch controls, but the game is a little too demanding for something like Bay Trail, Cherry Trail on the other-hand should offer a reasonable experience.

Gaming and the tablet experience doesn't always have to be as linear as you make it out to be, some things just don't work well with touch controls. An ideal mobile experience for me (and I imagine quite a number of other gamers) is something like AMD's project discovery (something a little more discrete, the loud-speaker at the base of the controller dock doesn't need to be there), a simple controller dock for your tablet. Dock in a small 8-inch tablet like the Dell Venue 8 pro or Lenovo ThinkPad 8.

AMD Project discovery

Well I did say that touch controls would work fine for games like South Park or FFVII. But the idea that you need to look to unoptimized games because the availability of games designed specifically for tablets isn't something I'm going to ignore. The games I'm referring to make up approximately 60% of the iOS app store. The following are links discovered through a very, very simple search -- Gameranx | Mensxp | MacLife | LaptopMag

I think what's important to understand is that many of the traditional games you're likely referring to have been released on iOS, only they've been re-made with an iPad in mind -- an ideal scenario. Games like XCOM, Frozen Synapse, MtG, Hearthstone, Limbo, Avadon: The Black Fortress, KOTOR, The Walking Dead, Bastion, Anomaly, and more (those are just off the top of my head).

As for project discovery -- it's the same thing as putting a keyboard and mouse on a tablet. Only this looks even more ridiculous. Could they make it any bigger and more unwieldy? And I'm fairly certain this isn't the first time someone tried something like this. And it went badly.

EDIT: Added link.

#20 Edited by NVIDIATI (7854 posts) -

@musicalmac said:

@NVIDIATI said:

What are these 'high-quality' touch screen games on iOS that are so distinct? Preference or not I don't know how you can overlook the ability to play some of these games on a tablet (South Park, Limbo, etc.). There are countless indie and classic PC titles that would also work very well with the touch controller.

I personally dislike touch controls for most games, but that's not the case for everyone, some people would be happy to play those types of games on a touch screen. The FPS genre, in my opinion, does not work well with touch controls. RTS games can vary, Civilization V has some great touch controls, but the game is a little too demanding for something like Bay Trail, Cherry Trail on the other-hand should offer a reasonable experience.

Gaming and the tablet experience doesn't always have to be as linear as you make it out to be, some things just don't work well with touch controls. An ideal mobile experience for me (and I imagine quite a number of other gamers) is something like AMD's project discovery (something a little more discrete, the loud-speaker at the base of the controller dock doesn't need to be there), a simple controller dock for your tablet. Dock in a small 8-inch tablet like the Dell Venue 8 pro or Lenovo ThinkPad 8.

AMD Project discovery

Well I did say that touch controls would work fine for games like South Park or FFVII. But the idea that you need to look to unoptimized games because the availability of games designed specifically for tablets isn't something I'm going to ignore. The games I'm referring to make up approximately 60% of the iOS app store. The following are links discovered through a very, very simple search -- Gameranx | Mensxp | MacLife | LaptopMag

I think what's important to understand is that many of the traditional games you're likely referring to have been released on iOS, only they've been re-made with an iPad in mind -- an ideal scenario. Games like XCOM, Frozen Synapse, MtG, Hearthstone, Limbo, Avadon: The Black Fortress, KOTOR, The Walking Dead, Bastion, Anomaly, and more (those are just off the top of my head).

As for project discovery -- it's the same thing as putting a keyboard and mouse on a tablet. Only this looks even more ridiculous. Could they make it any bigger and more unwieldy? And I'm fairly certain this isn't the first time someone tried something like this. And it went badly.

EDIT: Added link.

Why does it matter if the games are originally unoptimized? The software allows for better control of those games than standard controls for most iOS/Android games. There are no AA or AAA games in your lists, and I'm talking about PC standards, the vast majority of those games are undesirable (there are also a lot of FPS titles with terrible controls). Some of the indie, or older PC ports aren't even on those lists.

Why is it the same as a keyboard and mouse? Controller docks allow you to move around while using the device. A KB/M requires you to put the device down. You're still trying to bend everything in this very linear direction of "native touch only" even if it doesn't work nearly as well as a controller (FPS titles again jump to mind). Project Discovery utilizes a large speaker at the base, that is not a requirement. Something like the Gamevice is a lot more portable and can easily clamp down on a small tablet.

Gamevice

#21 Edited by musicalmac (23636 posts) -

@NVIDIATI said:

Why does it matter if the games are originally unoptimized? The software allows for better control of those games than standard controls for most iOS/Android games. There are no AA or AAA games in your lists, and I'm talking about PC standards, the vast majority of those games are undesirable (there are also a lot of FPS titles with terrible controls). Some of the indie, or older PC ports aren't even on those lists.

Why is it the same as a keyboard and mouse? Controller docks allow you to move around while using the device. A KB/M requires you to put the device down. You're still trying to bend everything in this very linear direction of "native touch only" even if it doesn't work nearly as well as a controller (FPS titles again jump to mind). Project Discovery utilizes a large speaker at the base, that is not a requirement. Something like the Gamevice is a lot more portable and can easily clamp down on a small tablet.

Gamevice

I understand your points, but they are absolutely contrary to what a tablet is traditionally used for. Tablets are handy because they're easier to throw into a bag than a book or laptop. Additional hardware for tablets like what you're linking is like Sony or Nintendo releasing a handheld gaming device that has a power brick the size of the 360's that has to be both plugged into the wall and connected to the device before you can play a game. If a game isn't made for a tablet, you have to make special considerations in order for it to work.

Do you have any examples of successful hardware additions to tablets like this, or are you just basing your arguments on mere potential? Did you miss this part about Project discovery?

When pressed about how Project Discovery might impact AMD's OEM partners, the spokesperson clarified that "AMD does not plan to enter the market with a branded tablet and peripherals at this time."

It seems with Project Discovery, AMD is more interested in creating a proof of concept that it hopes will motivate its OEM partners to create the final, consumer-ready products based on its new Mullins APU.

Credit TechRadar

I'm tired of unrealized potential being used as though it has the impact of realized potential (read: products that don't exist vs products that do).

For crying out loud, the Razer Edge tablet gets a meager 3 hours of battery life. I'm guessing that 3 hours was achieved doing something that wasn't playing a game. That tablet not only needs a bunch of attachments, but a place to be plugged in, too. Just because it can be done, doesn't mean it should be done -- especially if it's done badly. 3 hours isn't even a flight from Chicago to San Diego, it'll be dead an hour before the pilot begins his final descent.

I don't want to give credit to arguments that are born from something abstract and not truly measurable. A tablet that gets 3 hours of battery life can't hardly be considered a tablet. And Project Discovery is a project and not a product -- which explains the name. Still no surprises.

EDIT: Does that Gamevice even exist? I can't find anything past January of this year, when it was announced and revealed that iOS support is in the works (even though nobody may want it anyways). Serious question, it's not even on their website.

#22 Edited by NVIDIATI (7854 posts) -

@musicalmac said:

@NVIDIATI said:

Why does it matter if the games are originally unoptimized? The software allows for better control of those games than standard controls for most iOS/Android games. There are no AA or AAA games in your lists, and I'm talking about PC standards, the vast majority of those games are undesirable (there are also a lot of FPS titles with terrible controls). Some of the indie, or older PC ports aren't even on those lists.

Why is it the same as a keyboard and mouse? Controller docks allow you to move around while using the device. A KB/M requires you to put the device down. You're still trying to bend everything in this very linear direction of "native touch only" even if it doesn't work nearly as well as a controller (FPS titles again jump to mind). Project Discovery utilizes a large speaker at the base, that is not a requirement. Something like the Gamevice is a lot more portable and can easily clamp down on a small tablet.

Gamevice

I understand your points, but they are absolutely contrary to what a tablet is traditionally used for. Tablets are handy because they're easier to throw into a bag than a book or laptop. Additional hardware for tablets like what you're linking is like Sony or Nintendo releasing a handheld gaming device that has a power brick the size of the 360's that has to be both plugged into the wall and connected to the device before you can play a game. If a game isn't made for a tablet, you have to make special considerations in order for it to work.

Do you have any examples of successful hardware additions to tablets like this, or are you just basing your arguments on mere potential? Did you miss this part about Project discovery?

When pressed about how Project Discovery might impact AMD's OEM partners, the spokesperson clarified that "AMD does not plan to enter the market with a branded tablet and peripherals at this time."

It seems with Project Discovery, AMD is more interested in creating a proof of concept that it hopes will motivate its OEM partners to create the final, consumer-ready products based on its new Mullins APU.

Credit TechRadar

I'm tired of unrealized potential being used as though it has the impact of realized potential (read: products that don't exist vs products that do).

For crying out loud, the Razer Edge tablet gets a meager 3 hours of battery life. I'm guessing that 3 hours was achieved doing something that wasn't playing a game. That tablet not only needs a bunch of attachments, but a place to be plugged in, too. Just because it can be done, doesn't mean it should be done -- especially if it's done badly. 3 hours isn't even a flight from Chicago to San Diego, it'll be dead an hour before the pilot begins his final descent.

I don't want to give credit to arguments that are born from something abstract and not truly measurable. A tablet that gets 3 hours of battery life can't hardly be considered a tablet. And Project Discovery is a project and not a product -- which explains the name. Still no surprises.

EDIT: Does that Gamevice even exist? I can't find anything past January of this year, when it was announced and revealed that iOS support is in the works (even though nobody may want it anyways). Serious question, it's not even on their website.

Yes I am aware that project discovery is not a real product, hence my comment "something like". Gamevice is not yet on the market, and the link you provided was to the Wikipad, a far outdated and overpriced Android tablet with a controller dock. The clamp style controllers are new to the market and we'll likely see more of them later this year. Again, referencing back to my previous post, these types of controllers would fall into "my ideal" mobile gaming experience.

Gaming on a flight? Something like the Dell Venue 8 Pro (plus flip cover that can act as a stand) which has a battery life ~8 hours and a SteelSeries mobile wireless controller (0.11 lbs) would cost less and weigh about the same as an iPad Air. So it's definitely more portable than a laptop.

You seem to have a terrible understanding of what a Bay Trail tablet is if you have to reference the Razer Edge.

The Razer Edge Pro is a 3.2 lbs tablet that uses a 2012 Ivy Bridge Intel Core i5 U series CPU and a discrete NVIDIA GT 640M LE GPU. The device requires fans for cooling and was comparable to a late 2012 / early 2013 laptop in performance.

The Dell Venue 8 Pro (Oct. 2013) is 0.86 lbs in weight and uses Intel's Z3740 (fanless, of course) which is competitive in power consumption and performance with modern ARM SoCs.

#23 Posted by musicalmac (23636 posts) -

@NVIDIATI said:

Yes I am aware that project discovery is not a real product, hence my comment "something like". Gamevice is not yet on the market, and the link you provided was to the Wikipad, a far outdated and overpriced Android tablet with a controller dock. The clamp style controllers are new to the market and we'll likely see more of them later this year. Again, referencing back to my previous post, these types of controllers would fall into "my ideal" mobile gaming experience.

Gaming on a flight? Something like the Dell Venue 8 Pro (plus flip cover that can act as a stand) which has a battery life ~8 hours and a SteelSeries mobile wireless controller (0.11 lbs) would cost less and weigh about the same as an iPad Air. So it's definitely more portable than a laptop.

You seem to have a terrible understanding of what a Bay Trail tablet is if you have to reference the Razer Edge.

The Razer Edge Pro is a 3.2 lbs tablet that uses a 2012 Ivy Bridge Intel Core i5 U series CPU and a discrete NVIDIA GT 640M LE GPU. The device requires fans for cooling and was comparable to a late 2012 / early 2013 laptop in performance.

The Dell Venue 8 Pro (Oct. 2013) is 0.86 lbs in weight and uses Intel's Z3740 (fanless, of course) which is competitive in power consumption and performance with modern ARM SoCs.

Right, "something like" as in something that doesn't exist.

Did you know Wikipad was the company that announced the Gamevine? That link I provided was to their company website, unless you have one I could not locate.

Real-world tests on the Dell tablet run just over 7 hours, far shy of the iPad's 13 and and a half, and in general has fairly so-so reviews. The Razer Edge tablet was referenced because it was the only other tablet I had heard of that included bulky controller attachments. I think you knew I wasn't citing it as a bay trail tablet (or maybe I'm giving you too much credit, it's hard to tell). I wonder how its battery would do with one of the games you linked previously.

All this nonsense because I quoted AnandTech.

#24 Posted by NVIDIATI (7854 posts) -

@musicalmac said:

@NVIDIATI said:

Yes I am aware that project discovery is not a real product, hence my comment "something like". Gamevice is not yet on the market, and the link you provided was to the Wikipad, a far outdated and overpriced Android tablet with a controller dock. The clamp style controllers are new to the market and we'll likely see more of them later this year. Again, referencing back to my previous post, these types of controllers would fall into "my ideal" mobile gaming experience.

Gaming on a flight? Something like the Dell Venue 8 Pro (plus flip cover that can act as a stand) which has a battery life ~8 hours and a SteelSeries mobile wireless controller (0.11 lbs) would cost less and weigh about the same as an iPad Air. So it's definitely more portable than a laptop.

You seem to have a terrible understanding of what a Bay Trail tablet is if you have to reference the Razer Edge.

The Razer Edge Pro is a 3.2 lbs tablet that uses a 2012 Ivy Bridge Intel Core i5 U series CPU and a discrete NVIDIA GT 640M LE GPU. The device requires fans for cooling and was comparable to a late 2012 / early 2013 laptop in performance.

The Dell Venue 8 Pro (Oct. 2013) is 0.86 lbs in weight and uses Intel's Z3740 (fanless, of course) which is competitive in power consumption and performance with modern ARM SoCs.

Right, "something like" as in something that doesn't exist.

Did you know Wikipad was the company that announced the Gamevine? That link I provided was to their company website, unless you have one I could not locate.

Real-world tests on the Dell tablet run just over 7 hours, far shy of the iPad's 13 and and a half, and in general has fairly so-so reviews. The Razer Edge tablet was referenced because it was the only other tablet I had heard of that included bulky controller attachments. I think you knew I wasn't citing it as a bay trail tablet (or maybe I'm giving you too much credit, it's hard to tell). I wonder how its battery would do with one of the games you linked previously.

All this nonsense because I quoted AnandTech.

Again, which follows in context with my original comment; "an ideal mobile gaming experience for me".

Yes I am aware they are the same company. The link you provided was to an Engadget article.

The Dell Venue 8 Pro was released with a number of different software issues that could affect battery and had been mentioned in numerous reviews, the majority of which have been fixed. One of the issues was with the auto-brightness, which can make the difference between the device lasting for 10 hours or 7 hours. The other major problem was the stylus that Dell had released, that has since been replaced with a new stylus. No need to be picky though, there are several other small tablets to choose from if something like the DV8P doesn't suite someone's tastes ( Acer Iconia W4, ASUS Vivotab Note 8, Lenovo Miix 2 8, Lenovo ThinkPad 8, Toshiba Encore).

The Razer Edge Pro and a Bay Trail tablet are very different things, which is why your comparison (or at the least frame of reference) need not apply, that was the reason for my comment.

#25 Posted by Davidwilliam06 (157 posts) -

Oh man! I cannot believe that you actually made the mistake to drop an iPad Air for a mainstream Galaxy Tab3! As you can see for yourself this is costing you a lot and it will eventually take a lot of time before you actually end up with an iPad Air! Save for it though, it’s definitely the best on the market by far!